- 4 months ago
On Friday's edition of Felger and Mazz, the guys were joined by Chris Gasper of the Boston Globe. The guys got in a friendly, but intense debate on who is truly to blame for the Patriots downfall in recent years.
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00:00Give me your current temperature on the Patriots following their preseason slate.
00:04Yeah, I mean, I think that it's a situation where they're coming to a realization in that building that, look, there's work that has to be done.
00:13I thought the clip you played from Mike Rabel talking about it, and it wasn't just about the last preseason game, which is meaningless.
00:20And they sat 35 guys.
00:22This is an uphill battle for them.
00:24The roster they inherited is not in great shape, and there's a lot of work here to be done.
00:30And we had both Phil Perry and Burt Breer on Patriots preview last night leading into this game.
00:36Beatle and I did.
00:36And both of them, unprompted, made references to the Patriots organization trying to basically temper expectations a little bit and, you know, walk down the expectations of the people that maybe think it's a 10-11 win season this year.
00:52And I think that's because the reality of what they are dealing with and what they've gone through through training camp tells them that this is going to be a challenge.
00:59It's definitely going to be a challenge.
01:00And if they're able somehow to double their win total from the last two seasons, which is two, four, and 13 seasons, that is Mike Rabel doing a tremendous job this year.
01:11And that's tremendous progress.
01:12But he's made comments recently about how it's – he told Zoe in the pregame interview, you know, it's year one.
01:18We have to get this right.
01:19There's a lot of sort of verbal breadcrumbs they're dropping here that's telling you that this is – when you start talking about year one and the first year or something, that means you think you need multiple years to get somewhere that matters.
01:32And I think that's kind of what they're telling you.
01:34Well, do you also believe that Mike Rabel's lashing out over the last week or so, as evidenced last night again by him believing there might be rats in the organization, is also maybe a tell that he believes his team might suck?
01:46Yeah, I mean, suck is strong, but I think that, again, we've talked about this a lot in terms of this market and how unique it is when it comes to just genuflecting to the coach and saying, well, if our coach is really good, you know, we should be a double-digit win team.
02:06Our team should be double-digit wins.
02:08There's been a significant, huge upgrade in head coach.
02:11Mike's an excellent coach, but he still has to work with what he has to work with.
02:17Not to borrow from Alex Cora, but I think this is Rabel's way of telling you the roster is the roster.
02:23This is what it is.
02:24Like, don't expect me to be a miracle worker.
02:26We have some young guys I'm excited about.
02:29I like what we've done, but this is a multi-step process.
02:32And it's interesting because last year when it was Mayo and Elliott Wolfe, and obviously that did not go well.
02:37It was disastrous last year.
02:39But they told ownership it was a three-year rebuild.
02:42I mean, what's really changed?
02:43So Mike Rabel walks through the door, so now all of a sudden it's not a rebuild at all?
02:47Like, you're just ready to go.
02:49You're ready to compete for the AFC championship.
02:51So, Chris.
02:52I mean, that's ridiculous.
02:53Okay, it's not ridiculous.
02:55It's not.
02:55It is ridiculous.
02:56It's not.
02:56It's ridiculous.
02:57Chris.
02:57It is.
02:58Fact.
02:58It's ridiculous and entitled.
02:59Listen, fact.
03:02As provided to me by Boston Sports Inf, John Germain.
03:05In the last 25 years, there have been 81 teams tied for last or second to last in the league.
03:13I'm not talking AFC East.
03:15I'm talking about the 32nd or 31st team.
03:1781 teams tied for last or second to last in the last 25 years.
03:2418 of those teams made the playoffs the following year.
03:28That's over 20%.
03:29So, obviously.
03:31That's not high.
03:3120% is not high.
03:33The way you talk.
03:34This is real Felger and Mads math.
03:3620% is high?
03:37The way you talk about it, it is.
03:39Now, look.
03:40Getting this roster to the playoffs, you're right, feels like a long shot.
03:45But as an organization, I just feel when you do this, you're letting the team off the hook.
03:49Like, well, they won four games last year, so they should only win six this year.
03:52There are at least 18 examples in the last 25 years of teams going from dead last in the league to the playoffs the next year.
04:05It's doable.
04:07It's borderline routine that it happens.
04:10And you say.
04:11One in five?
04:11You say.
04:12Yes.
04:12Is routine?
04:13Is borderline.
04:13The way you talk about it, like it's an impossibility and it's an unreasonable ask.
04:18You're sort of letting the organization off the hook, which I find gross.
04:22I'm not trying to let them.
04:24I'm just telling you.
04:25I mean, if anybody's trying to get off the hook, I think it's them.
04:27Look at the verbiage that they're using.
04:29Look at what I just told you about.
04:31Two separate reporters who I think are pretty dialed in.
04:34Saying that they're trying to temper expectations.
04:37I mean, it's not me trying to let them off the hook.
04:39I just look at it and think.
04:41And by the way, I would ask how many of those, you know, 18 teams you cited had below five wins two years in a row.
04:47Like teams fluctuate all the time.
04:49There's a team that you think is going to be good.
04:51A team could be nine and seven.
04:52And then the next year they're injuries or the coach isn't good or something happens.
04:56And suddenly they're a bottom three team in the league.
05:00But what they had to work with before was still pretty good.
05:03How many teams have been back-to-back four and 13 and then all of a sudden, boom, you're contending?
05:08Yes, I have another number for you on that.
05:11I'm going to have to dig a little bit.
05:13Teams that finish with that kind of record three straight years are like the dregs of the dregs of the dregs.
05:17And the fact that it's okay for the Patriots to be one of those teams.
05:22I mean, if it's not okay, if you want to say reality, Chris, if you want to say it's an unreasonable expectation for Vrabel to take this team to the playoffs, that's okay.
05:34Because the roster is the roster.
05:37It's not unreasonable to look at the crafts and say, there have been a lot of teams that have been in your exact position
05:45who made smart decisions, hired the right people, invested in the right places, and turned it around immediately.
05:53It happens actually fairly routinely.
05:57And so that's where I'm at.
06:00That's where I'm at.
06:01If this is, once again, another bottom-dwelling season, that is a massive indictment on the crafts.
06:07Yeah, I mean, I don't think they're going to be four and 13 again.
06:09I'm just telling you, if you're defining success this year by making the playoffs, I think that is unrealistic.
06:15To me, if they double their win total, if they go from four to eight, then Mike Vrabel did an excellent job.
06:21And I think part of this also comes down to stuff that has happened in the past, the unrealistic expectations and sort of entitlement of discussing this football team.
06:31And I'm going to hit you with this, and I know you're going to get mad, but I'm just going to say it.
06:34The idea of, like, oh, they can win ten games with Brian Hoyer because Belichick's still the coach.
06:39This reeks of the same stuff.
06:41It's like, well, Vrabel's the coach now, so they should just be good.
06:43They should compete for the division.
06:45They should make it because Vrabel's the coach.
06:46That's not what I'm doing.
06:47It's still about the players.
06:48I'm basing it on the nature of the league.
06:50Chris, it happens all the time.
06:52Teams go from last to first all the time.
06:55Yeah, and something happens.
06:56So if you're Washington, and Washington was bad when they got Jaden Daniels, but before that, they were basically an eight and eight, nine and seven teams.
07:02Let's say they had average talent, and then they had a bad year, and they got, I'm not going to call them elite, but a top ten quarterback.
07:09What is the addition the Patriots have made this offseason that allows them to make that kind of leap?
07:13What you should be doing is criticizing them for not being able to land the talent despite all the money they have in the draft position they've had.
07:21And ask them, why are you nowhere close to turning it around like these other teams?
07:26That's the story.
07:27Not sitting here saying, well, what are you expecting to do?
07:29Six, seven wins would be progress.
07:30That's not what I'm saying.
07:31I mean, for me, the story is don't expect a coach to just, again, let's not go through the same crap.
07:35It was, let's not make the same mistake again, where people were like, oh, as long as we have Belichick, it's just about the coach.
07:42As long as we have the coach, it doesn't really matter what the talent is.
07:45That's been dispelled.
07:46Yeah.
07:46That's been dispelled.
07:47You know what's also been dispelled is that the Crafts have some sort of magic business formula that they, we apply the same principles to our football team that we apply to our successful businesses.
07:58I agree.
07:58That's fair.
07:59So why don't you spend more time on that?
08:01Well, because I'll leave that to you.
08:03I mean, that's absolutely a factor.
08:04But what I wanted to come on and talk about, I think it's interesting that the head coach of the team seems to be giving you verbal breadcrumbs to dial it back in terms of the expectations.
08:13I mean, that's, that to me is interesting.
08:16You want to talk about the whole thing.
08:17We can talk about that.
08:18I'm not saying the Crafts have done a good job.
08:20I'm not saying they've done a good job with the rebuild.
08:22That's not what I'm saying.
08:24But I also would look at it and think.
08:26They butchered it massively.
08:28The reason they're so far behind right now.
08:30And I didn't hear you say that when they kept Belichick over Brady.
08:32I didn't hear a lot of people say that.
08:34I didn't hear people say that's a massive mistake.
08:36They butchered it.
08:37Had it wrong.
08:37That's four years.
08:38You could have been rebuilding that you went down the drain because you guys were all following Bill off the clip.
08:43I got that one wrong for sure.
08:45But we're talking about the Crafts.
08:47And one of the reasons you're so far behind right now is because last year you decided in a really crucial year with a high draft pick to turn the thing over to Gerard Mayo and Elliott Wolfe.
09:00And both were massively overmatched and set you back.
09:06You still weren't going to turn that around in a year, Michael.
09:08You know that.
09:08The degree that roster was left in was horrendous.
09:11Could you have started the process with that bozo as a coach and that useless GM?
09:17You could have gotten further along.
09:18Could you have gotten more than one player in the draft?
09:21Could you have gotten more than one player in the draft?
09:23Could you have laid some sort of foundation on the roster and the way they played?
09:28And said you got nothing.
09:29And the Crafts last year in the most crucial year of that rebuild, the first year with the highest draft pick they've had since Drew Blood.
09:38So turned it over to Gerard Mayo, Elliott Wolfe, Scott Van Pelt, Alex Van Pelt.
09:47I can't remember the defensive crew.
09:48DeMarcus, what's it?
09:49Covington.
09:50DeMarcus Covington.
09:51DeMarcus Covington.
09:52And that crew.
09:54That's the story.
09:56So, but something tells me you're not going to be going there.
09:58That's the story.
09:59I just went there.
10:00I agreed with you.
10:01I said they should have done better than that.
10:03And I agreed with you that that was a bad choice.
10:05What do you want me to say?
10:07I mean, what else do you want me to say about it?
10:08If you're not going to take ownership of being wrong about the ultimate decision, which was the reason they're in the position they're in now.
10:15Hold on.
10:16I'm not done.
10:16Did you not hear what I just said?
10:17The reason they're in the position they're in now is not because they hired Gerard Mayo.
10:20Yes, it is.
10:21And Elliott Wolfe.
10:21Yes, it is.
10:22No.
10:22Yeah, it is.
10:23It's because they followed Bill off the cliff.
10:26And they believed what you believed and a lot of other people believed, which was as long as they had Bill, it would all be good.
10:31When you start looking at some of these drafts that are – last draft, the 2024 draft was not good for the Patriots.
10:38But look at some of the other drafts Bill had at the end.
10:41And I know people don't want to talk about this because they feel like you're piling on and they feel sorry for him now.
10:45And they didn't want to talk about this last year when Mayo and Wolfe were there and I was talking about it.
10:49I said, Bill's gone.
10:50Leave him alone.
10:51What was the state that Belichick left that team in?
10:55What was the state?
10:55Because they're largely in the same state.
10:58Chris, you just said they didn't do anything last year to make it better.
11:01So from what they inherited, they're largely in the same state.
11:04Does that not mean that that's the state Bill left the team in?
11:06I would have fired him after the Patricia judge year.
11:09Me too.
11:09We were on that from there.
11:11So they hung on.
11:12I just thought I would add that in.
11:13At least one year too long.
11:15So it's their decision-making.
11:17It's one thing for a talk show host to say Belichick over Brady.
11:20And I said that at the time, but it was a fireable offense.
11:23My opinion doesn't matter in this context.
11:25We're talking about rebuilding.
11:27It's the Kraft's decision-making from the end of the Belichick era through, well, now, basically, is the reason they are where they are.
11:37But like I said, I think you're not going to go there.
11:41Why wouldn't I?
11:42I mean, I don't mind going there.
11:43I'm not disagreeing with you.
11:45It's just that you were right along with them in the most crippling decision, and now it's like, oh, no big deal there.
11:52Now we're just going to blame the other guys, the guys that came after, the guys that, you know, it's like somebody turns a site into a toxic waste dump.
11:59And then you hire the wrong people to clean up the toxic waste dump, and they can't make it any better.
12:04And then you blame them for making it a toxic waste dump in the first place.
12:07That's exactly what happened.
12:09No, I'm trying to hire – I blame the person that hired the incompetent people they hired to clean up the toxic waste.
12:16How long did it take to – like, Chernobyl, do you blame – so the issue with Chernobyl is that it's still radioactive to be the wrong people?
12:24I don't know about Chernobyl.
12:24I don't know.
12:25But if you hired –
12:26Okay, we're not dealing with radioactive materials here.
12:29Kind of are.
12:29But I'm just saying, like, that's the point, is it's the person who F's it up in the first place, not the clean up people.
12:35The nature of the beast is – the nature of the beast in the NFL is that you can turn around relatively quickly, and the crafts have proven incapable,
12:45starting with that ridiculous hire of Gerard Mayo and turning it over to Elliott Wolfe.
12:51Ridiculous.
12:51It was a bad tandem and a bad hire, and it didn't work out.
12:56That's why we're still at, to follow through on this analogy, ground zero.
12:59That's why we're still – it's still a smoldering nuclear waste dump, because they made the wrong decisions in turning it around.
13:07And that's why we are where we are.
13:08I'm happy to blame them all.
13:09I mean, Belichick put them in the spot.
13:11Of course Bill screwed it up.
13:13Of course.
13:13They certainly haven't done anything since – like, Chris, the only part that I disagree with that you're saying is that –
13:19Okay.
13:20Bill created the mess.
13:22They haven't exactly improved it either.
13:24So, like, at some point – at some point, they did have opportunities to accelerate the process a little, and they haven't done that.
13:33They had one year, Maz.
13:35Like, could the one year – I agree with you guys.
13:37They could have made a lot more progress than the one – this is where I talk about the entitlement thing,
13:40like, the idea that they were going to fix the amount of decline in that program in one year.
13:48I mean, they didn't come in and say – they told ownership from the jump, it's going to take three years to clean up that mess.
13:54Okay.
13:54So, they told them that.
13:55There was no expectation in that organization last year that they were going to go from 4-13 to an 11- or 12-win team.
14:02Nobody thought that.
14:03Okay.
14:04But I also hold the Crafts accountable for those last couple of years with Belichick.
14:08So, that thing was – that was a bad decision.
14:11They allowed him –
14:12Now, look, I don't know if Matt Jones was going to be able to play anyway.
14:15I didn't like him.
14:15I didn't think he had the arm strength.
14:16And I think we all know now he probably wasn't going to be a terrific quarterback in the league.
14:21But Bill really botched that badly, and they let him do it.
14:26They let him do it.
14:27They did.
14:28But a lot of the same people – and I'm not saying you guys, although it might be you guys too –
14:32but a lot of the same people complaining about them letting Bill botch it were the ones who were like,
14:37you got to – you know, ownership, stay out of the way.
14:39Like, let Bill do his thing.
14:40Let Bill do his thing.
14:41As long as we have Belichick, we're good.
14:43They were the same people that were the whole time were saying, in Bill we trust,
14:48and as long as – they wanted ownership to give Bill that much rope.
14:52And when he hung the franchise with it, then they went back and said, well, who provided the rope?
14:56You know, I mean, to me, that's like, look, you can do that to a degree,
15:00but the reality is you got exactly what you wanted.
15:02It just didn't work out the way you thought it was.
15:04So now you've got to blame somebody else.