- vor 1 Jahr
Was macht ein gutes Rollenspiel aus? Diese drei müssen es wissen, denn sie haben an einigen Meilensteinen des Genres mitgearbeitet. Miles Tost von CD Projekt Red ( The Witcher 4 ), Chris Parker von Obsidian ( The Outer Worlds 2 ) und Alexander Mishulin von Owlcat Games ( The Expanse: Osiris Reborn ) sprechen bei FYNG gamescom darüber, was das Genre so besonders macht und welche Zutaten ein gutes RPG braucht.
Das ist eine Aufzeichnung aus unserem Livestreaming-Programm FYNG gamescom .
- Alle Folgen des GameStar Podcasts
- GameStar Podcast bei Apple Podcasts
- GameStar Podcast bei Spotify
- GameStar Podcast bei Podcast Addict
Mehr Videotalks findet ihr auf bei GameStar Talk - auch auf Youtube .
Was ist GameStar Talk?
GameStar Talk ist sozusagen die Videofassung des GameStar Podcasts und ein gemeinsames Angebot von GameStar, GamePro und MeinMMO. Wir wollen euch mit jedem Gespräch, mit jedem Video unterhalten und zugleich etwas Neues bieten: Neue Perspektiven, neue Einblicke, neues Wissen über Spiele und die Menschen, die sie entwickeln und spielen, sowie neue Seiten unserer Teammitglieder. Falls ihr Themenwünsche habt, dann schreibt sie gerne in die Kommentare!
Das ist eine Aufzeichnung aus unserem Livestreaming-Programm FYNG gamescom .
- Alle Folgen des GameStar Podcasts
- GameStar Podcast bei Apple Podcasts
- GameStar Podcast bei Spotify
- GameStar Podcast bei Podcast Addict
Mehr Videotalks findet ihr auf bei GameStar Talk - auch auf Youtube .
Was ist GameStar Talk?
GameStar Talk ist sozusagen die Videofassung des GameStar Podcasts und ein gemeinsames Angebot von GameStar, GamePro und MeinMMO. Wir wollen euch mit jedem Gespräch, mit jedem Video unterhalten und zugleich etwas Neues bieten: Neue Perspektiven, neue Einblicke, neues Wissen über Spiele und die Menschen, die sie entwickeln und spielen, sowie neue Seiten unserer Teammitglieder. Falls ihr Themenwünsche habt, dann schreibt sie gerne in die Kommentare!
Kategorie
🎮️
VideospieleTranskript
00:00Was macht eigentlich ein gutes Rollenspiel aus? Befindet sich das Genre vielleicht sogar in einer
00:18kleinen Identitätskrise? Was ist besonders wichtig bei einem Rollenspiel und welche Spiele dürfen
00:25sich so nennen? Welche nicht? Darüber wollen wir heute sprechen und haben uns dafür eine wahnsinnige Runde eingeladen mit sehr,
00:32sehr vielen interessanten Gesichtern. Auf die kommen wir jetzt zu sprechen. Wir haben einmal Miles
00:40Tost vom CD Projekt. Nice to see you, man. Hey, nice to have me. Currently working on The Witcher 4.
00:48Yeah. You're allowed to say that right now, right? Yeah, this is the one thing we can say.
00:54So recently it was called Polaris, right? Yeah. And I mean internally we still call it Polaris.
01:00I guess it's something you don't really lose the code name. But yeah, we've shown a bit of a tech
01:07demo so far. We've shown the trailer. Finally, we are deep in the territory where we can acknowledge
01:12the existence of it and talk about it. And I'm really happy about that. Yeah, of course you worked
01:17on Witcher 3. You worked on Cyberpunk. So yeah, I've been since 2013. I worked on Witcher 3,
01:23the expansions and I was there all the way from, you know, development of Cyberpunk since 2015 to
01:312020 and beyond. And now I get to work on Witcher 4. Cool. So next to you is Chris Parker from Obsidian.
01:39Hi, everybody. Nice to see you. It's good that you're here. So yeah, you're currently working on Grounded 2.
01:45Yeah, I'm currently the game director on Grounded 2 for Obsidian Entertainment. We're working on that
01:51with Eidos Montreal, which is a pretty interesting experiment for us. To give you a little bit of my
01:57background, my first big game was Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 with BioWare. I've heard of it.
02:03Yeah, I hope you guys have. There was recently another one in the series. You may have heard of it.
02:08Yeah. Yeah. So and then in 2003, I was one of the founders of Obsidian Entertainment and I've gone
02:14on to work on basically every Obsidian game since then. And yeah, currently working on Grounded 2.
02:20Very exciting because we finally got it into people's hands just on June 29th. And it's very exciting.
02:25Yeah. You've also worked on Fallout New Vegas then?
02:28Yeah, I worked on, I mean, Adam City and I worked on Knights of the Old Republic 2,
02:34Neverwinter Nights 2, Fallout New Vegas, Alpha Protocol, South Park Stick of Truce.
02:39Wow.
02:40Armored Warfare, Pillars of Paternity 2. I never did work on Pillars of Paternity 1. Let's clear that up.
02:46Pillars of Paternity 2, Avowed, I worked on for a couple of years. I worked on The Outer Worlds 2,
02:51and now I'm in charge of Grounded. I think I got, I think I got everything.
02:54I have to ask you though. I've been really blessed in my career actually to have a lot
02:58of like really great opportunities. Yeah. I have to ask you though, because for us it was very,
03:03it was quite the emotional moment to see New Vegas in the Fallout series for the first time.
03:08Did you see it? How did you feel to like see it on the, in like a real TV show?
03:15I mean, mixed emotions, right? Like, we would just like to go make another Fallout New Vegas.
03:24I would be with you on that. I know everybody wants to.
03:26Yes. We want, we want to play it. Don't plan on it. All right. But you know, it would be amazing.
03:32But seeing it on TV, fantastic. Just super exciting to see something that you worked
03:36on at some point in your life get realized in a totally different media. That's super cool.
03:41Cool. Cool. And also with us is Alex Michelin from Owlcat Games. You guys announced,
03:49you showed The Expans, Osiris Reborn on our Find Your Next Game show a few days back. And yeah,
03:56what was the reactions you got so far? Are you happy with them?
03:59Yeah, we are really happy. Since we announced, we got a lot of support. We still almost didn't show the game.
04:09to be preparing a lot of surprises and announcements. It's really interesting for us to work first time
04:18on a third-person RPG after several isometric titles. Yeah, that must be a challenge, of course,
04:27but we are so excited for the game. Before that, you worked on Pathfinder Kingmaker, for example,
04:35Rogue Trader. I actually started my career back in 1999. I worked on many games, including
04:46Operation Silent Storm, and I was creative director for Heroes of Might and Magic 5. And after that,
04:52when Owlcat formed, I joined Owlcat. And since then, I worked on Boss Pathfinders, on Warhammer,
04:59Rock Trader and now on Xbox. So guys, it's quite humbling to be able to host this talk. I think it's
05:05going to be very interesting. For you out there, of course, you can also ask questions. I think it's a
05:12special opportunity to talk with so many great names from the role-spiel scene. Please use
05:19call to ask questions, then they will be saved here with me, and otherwise, in the chat. And
05:26I'm excited for this talk. So let's start with something very easy for you personally. What is,
05:34what makes a great RPG for you personally? What's the most important thing?
05:42Oh, I think that really is a question that you can also ask many people and you'll always get a different
05:46answer. I think that's kind of the point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, good, good. I feel, for me, at its core,
05:55a good RPG allows the player to express themselves through a character, right? Or focuses on that. And
06:03that can be through your own character that you create or a character that exists. But the focus
06:07should be the mission statement of the designers behind it, to allow the player to kind of get deep
06:13into role-playing that character. And the more tools you give the player, I guess, and the stronger
06:18the tools are, whether it's character customization or, I don't know, like strong combat system, varied
06:25gameplay, choices and consequences in dialogue, right? These all add to that very form. Yeah.
06:33Okay. For you, Chris? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to disagree. Probably won't disagree a lot with
06:38these guys. We both make Western RPGs, right? So, I guess if I had to put it in a nutshell,
06:44I would say choice and consequence. That has to do with character progression, like you're talking
06:48about. But also, you know, what can I do in the world to sort of affect and change the world and
06:52make it feel like it's my own and that I've somehow had some influence over whatever happens in the game.
07:00So, yeah, that's how I would boil it down. That can be expressed in so many different ways. Again,
07:04deep character progression, story branching, you know, even how your companions interact with you if
07:12you have companions in your game. All of these things all affect that choice and consequence. And
07:16that's, I think, the beautiful thing about role-playing games for me. And for you, Alex?
07:22I can't agree more. It's all about choices and consequences and your decisions.
07:29Personally, it's great to see when all things combine in RPG, when story and mechanics and
07:38everything support each other. But sometimes it doesn't work that way. And I sometimes enjoy an RPG
07:46that is, for example, just great character progression and power, but story is and characters can be
07:53not so great or vice versa when it's mostly about story and characters and choices, while the mechanics
08:00like Black Luster. So RPGs can be different, but it's always about choice.
08:08Yeah, so it really is, like you guys said, a mix of story, but also character progression and systems.
08:15I think nowadays, people are often like, if this doesn't have this, then it can call itself an RPG.
08:23But really, what it all comes down to is role-playing a character in whatever way, right?
08:30If it's story or if it's gameplay. Is it, like, how do you balance these two things? Like,
08:36because you, you, of course, you always want to do as much as you can. You want to do both, but not all games do that.
08:49I mean, I'll jump in and say, it is, it's just a careful balancing act. And I think you have to
08:54have a very clear vision going into the game of what kind of game you're trying to make. And
08:59whether that's a fairly, like, linear role-playing game where you're going to make a lot of choices
09:06about how your character progresses or how you're going to try to overcome obstacles in that game,
09:11or whether it's an open-world game where you can do kind of anything you want and you just want the
09:15world to react to how you're playing it. As long as you sort of set those out, you know, going in,
09:21I think you've already done, like, you know, half of your work on the game. If you don't know exactly what
09:26you're doing, that's going to be really, really hard. And if you try to do everything, that's going
09:31to be very, very hard. So, yeah, I think it's about establishing goals and what kind of role-playing
09:36game you want to make from the outset, and then trying to execute on that.
09:40Is it hard to allow for player agency? Because, of course, as a designer, you probably, you're
09:48designing the game. You want everything to feel tight and feel right. And then the player comes in
09:56and sort of breaks the game. But those are, most of the times, those are the best moments that
10:02somebody can have with a game to find, like, different ways how the game reacts to you.
10:09Is it hard to allow that player agency, even though it is so important?
10:16Yeah, I mean, I can basically jump in by saying it depends also on what kind of game you're making,
10:22right? Like, if you are trying to, you know, hit the RPG notes by saying, okay, player self-expression
10:28through freedom and play is what the core of my game is, what we're trying to do, then, yeah,
10:35it's going to get really hard. But that's the sort of, like, you know, challenge you set to yourself.
10:40And I find that this is, it's super difficult once you actually get into that territory, because it's
10:46where a lot of fun happens. But for developers cost-wise, that's also like a never-ending black
10:53hole of, you know, work that you kind of spawn. Because where do you start with player agency,
10:58right? Like, especially now that games are getting more complicated, I see we're looking at one that
11:06looks very visually complicated, right? The more you get into reactivity and all of that stuff,
11:11the more challenging it becomes. And, like, asking yourself the question, where can you stop so that,
11:16you know, you balance believability versus what is feasible as a developer is probably one of the
11:22hardest parts of making agency-driven games, I guess. We consider it super important, and
11:31in my opinion, you have to not only to plan for it, but allow it during your development.
11:37And you want your narrative team to think in terms that allow player expression, not just
11:51writing a great story, but making a moment of big choices or consequences or just small things that
12:02will allow players to express themselves in different ways, like roleplay, for example.
12:11Will I be mean or nice or...? And sometimes it leads to consequences. Sometimes somebody will punch you
12:20if you're mean to him. But sometimes it's just, okay, and the discussion will continue, but I'm still
12:26roleplaying, and it's my agency, it's my character.
12:29What, for me, always stands out in a game is when the developers have the courage to make things
12:37missable. Like, because many times a player would do something in the game, maybe kill a character or
12:46get wanted in a town and get blocked off for certain quests or certain paths. Or for The Witcher 2,
12:54for example, we had like the whole Act 2, which was different based on a choice. And it feels like this
13:01is getting rarer and rarer because, of course, if you develop something you want people to see it. But
13:07this, for me, makes some of the magic that you know, I can miss a lot of this stuff that other people
13:13maybe in their playthrough have seen.
13:15I'm with you on that one. Like, it's almost, you know, like in the studio, I often have this
13:22conversation where I'm like trying to push for more of that. And, you know, there's so many compelling
13:27arguments also narratively, you know, where oftentimes the better choice is to make something
13:33not missable, right? But like on a deeply personal level, when I play a game, I think there's a ton of
13:40value that comes in playing something where you know that there's stuff you can miss because it makes
13:46the choices that I make actually so much more important and impactful, right?
13:50Yeah.
13:51I think the difficulty is to kind of create that in an environment where you're not, you know,
13:58throwing away a shit ton of resources into an area where like, you know, like no one will see it.
14:04But also sort of making it so that the player doesn't feel cheated, right? So you always have
14:12to make sure that whenever you have, I don't know, let's say two consequences, like A versus B,
14:17that both of them feel like, yeah, I really got everything I wanted out of this. You know,
14:22I don't feel cheated because the worst situation is if you make a choice and then you learn of the
14:26other and you feel like, man, I kind of wish I had done the other one, right?
14:30But then we get to replay a game to see another choice.
14:34Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, that's, that's the other thing. Like you can play games like
14:38Baldur's Gate, like endlessly often. And I also think that's part of it, right? But on the other
14:44hand, personally, I don't have time to replay games. So for me, like the first run, knowing that this
14:49one was my deeply unique one and there's more for me to discover is usually like, yeah, I always feel
14:55like this is my story. I like, I don't want to read about it, then play it again and have a different
15:00one because that's what my character went through. Yeah. Talking about Baldur's Gate 3,
15:05like I remember having finished my playthrough and I was talking to my son who had also beaten the
15:10game. And we literally were just comparing notes like, oh, what did you do? Oh, I did this at the
15:14Druid camp. I did this here. Yeah. Like what happens when you do that? Right. We had our own stories
15:19that had been built and that was because they put the effort into having things that you could miss
15:24and choices that you made that had consequence. And that's, you know, part of the part of what made that
15:29game like so much fun and so exciting to play is because you did build your own story. And I agree
15:33with you. I never have time to play games again. I tried to play Baldur's Gate 3 again. I got about
15:38a third of the way through it and I was like, I got to go do other stuff now. Yeah. But yeah, you know,
15:43any game like that where you can, you can really feel like you're building your own story. I think
15:48that's super exciting, right? Like it's fun for players. And that means sometimes you have to develop
15:52content that other people are not going to see. That's, that's just part of the, that's just part of the game.
15:57Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the genre you choose. It's, uh, you, when we're making the game, we have
16:04planning for it. Uh, like essentially that this part of the game will, of budget, will make for the
16:13players' decisions that only half of our audience or probably tens of our audience will see. And that's
16:21what great about RPGs. Uh, one time we went crazy with that, with the Rast of the Rages, with all this
16:28mythic pass. And, uh, it was like our part of, uh, what we called USP, the unique proposition for
16:37the game. And we put a lot of resources there for other games. We are trying to be more conservative
16:43and trying to find, like, more creative solutions, like different ways to request. And not on, not
16:49always like the whole bunch of content that you will be, like, tens of the story you will be missing.
16:57So, but yeah, if RPG doesn't have it, it's kind of, you're missing out on, on your decisions.
17:05Yes. I kind of can like, because I like to give context in this situation for also the
17:11people at home who are like trying to sort of understand how we as developers think about it,
17:15right? Is that sometimes when you're facing situations like this, where it's a matter of,
17:20okay, do we create this exclusively or not? Then you kind of have to think, all right,
17:24we'll spend weeks, months on this piece of content. And the question is, if we do two of these,
17:31we could, do we get more value out of it than if we did one and really put effort into it,
17:37right? Like it's a, let's imagine it's a narrative key moment. And do you want that to be missable?
17:43Yes or no. Right. And I think since you mentioned Witcher 2, right, there, the answer was clear,
17:48like, yeah, like the entire experience should be shaped by that. Right. But imagine like how different
17:54the game could look like. I'm not saying it's necessarily better or worse, right? If there had
17:58been one strand and all these resources were put on that exactly one experience, right? That would
18:03have been a great game for sure as well. It would have been a different game, right? It's just a
18:07question that you always have to ask yourself. Yeah. I imagine that's not easy to answer,
18:11especially if you, if you're not sure how it's going to turn out in the end to really decide on that.
18:18Since we, you guys are all doing games who put a lot of focus on decisions and consequence,
18:23and you also said it's very important for you. Do you have a specific decision in, in one of your
18:28games that you're especially proud of that you would say, we really did, did a great job on that.
18:35Players really had to think about it. It was morally gray. Does something come to mind?
18:42As we were talking about Pathfinder, Wrath of the Raiders. Yeah. All this mythic path that allow you
18:53to choose whoever you want to be, you want to be, go through all the story like being an angel and
19:02bring righteous fury or be compassionate within the angel or probably do something evil, go leech and
19:10everything. That was like, when we presented it internally to a team, it was like a crazy storm
19:19of ideas like, yeah, I want to be leech. I want to do this and that and everything. We had to scale
19:26down ambition a little bit because it was like impossible to do. And then when we decided that we
19:35you can, at certain point of the game, go a little further or betray one of your paths to become a
19:41devil because devils is about betrayal. You can't introduce them like that. That was the biggest one for me.
19:52Yeah. Okay. Um, I don't know. I'm having a hard time thinking of something specifically.
19:57Yeah. I think I'm thinking about the big picture though. Like, uh, like in the outer worlds, when we decided that we
20:03would have a pacifist option. And so you have to figure out how to let somebody get through the entire game by
20:08talking their way through it without, without murdering anything. And let's be honest, RPGs are mostly about
20:13murdering stuff, right? So, you know, when you, when you kind of come up with something like that, like how much scope
20:18are you actually taking on in your game? Uh, and it can be a lot, but it can be super, super rewarding for people that, that just want to try and
20:26experience that. So, um, yeah, I'm trying to think of like an actual decision point where it's like push
20:31the button or not push the button, but, uh, well, it is a decision as well, right? Yeah. I mean, if you
20:36decide I want to do a pacifist run, that's like one of the biggest decisions because it's going to affect
20:41your play so much. Everything you do. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's also such a bold decision to make.
20:46It's much more interesting to me, obviously also more costly than can I do stealth versus combat or so?
20:51Because essentially it's still like two different ways of murdering people, right? It's two different games,
20:55right? Like if you're just going for it, like, yeah, we'll make completely, you know, authentic
21:01original play style, which is literally don't fight. You talk to way through this. I, and, and
21:06actually commit to the dialogue options and, and the cinematic resource and all that stuff. I think
21:10that's incredible. It's so cool. Um, well, if you guys need some more time to think about it, we can,
21:16I can come back to it later also. I think I can give one, but I'm not so sure it's so interesting for,
21:22for everyone else. Um, like recently there's some Phantom Liberty spoilers here. Um, in our recent
21:28expansion for, for Cyberpunk 2077, there's like the pivotal choice between, you know, two characters.
21:35Yes. In one moment. And I, I really liked that one, not because I think it's like a particularly clever
21:42choice or something, but for me as a developer, it's a really cool moment of learning where, um, in
21:48Cyberpunk, we had this, you know, coming from Witcher 3, we had this, uh, approach with Cyberpunk that,
21:54okay, like one thing that really worked for us in Witcher 3 was making, uh, choice and consequence
22:00hard to read, right? Or harder to read. As in like, you made a choice and the consequence would only come
22:06in like two hours later. And, uh, in the ideal case, you didn't even know that that was the point of
22:11making the choice really, right? But the game would refer back to it and you had the connection and then
22:16sort of, it felt like you really felt, played like your own invention. Cyberpunk, we kind of thought,
22:22all right, great, let's double down on that and, um, make everything even more, you know, uh, harder
22:28to read and like what actually led to which and all that. And the idea was to create like a super
22:34seamless experience where whichever version you play, it's your movie that plays, right? And it's like
22:39completely polished sort of in that way. What happened actually is that players would, were not really
22:46able to understand where they had done decisions and what decisions led to which outcome to a degree
22:54where they questioned whether there was any choice and consequence at all. And so not the telltale
23:00system. You will remember this later. Yeah, but like people joke about that. But like for us,
23:05it was like really strong learning where we said like, ah, okay, you can't take that, you can't
23:09take it too far. You need to actually telegraph to the player some form of, you know, this happened
23:15because of this. And the question is how elegantly you can do that, whether it's like a UI prompt that
23:20literally tells you, or, um, I don't know, the character drops it in the dialogue somehow more
23:25subtly, right? And I think this moment between these two characters is actually like really cool
23:32situation where everyone thought that they're making a big decision here and everyone understood
23:36like what comes after is like this big ride of like almost the Witcher 2 kind of approach of two
23:42different ending quest lines essentially. And for us, it's like, like was a really, really big aha moment
23:50to kind of go like, yeah, I think, I think we got it now. We figured it out. What I actually found
23:55really interesting about that specific choice was how ambiguous it was in terms of like, I, when I
24:02made that decision, I wasn't even sure like what was the right choice, what was going to happen after.
24:07It wasn't like, um, in other games where like, okay, this choice will obviously lead to this.
24:13This choice will obviously lead to this. Now decide which, which story you want. It was more like,
24:19okay, do you trust this guy? Do you think this is going to somehow lead to something good?
24:24Or do you trust this person? And I think that's very interesting. And we had a question in chat
24:30exactly regarding that. Like how much do you think things like that should be obvious to the player
24:36or communicated to the player in terms of what are you really deciding on? Is it cool if it's completely
24:43open and the player makes sort of a gut decision in this moment? Or do you think because other other
24:50games have like a sort of like a description window attached to it that sort of explains it a little
24:57more what the choice is? Personally, I think that like if it's, if it is too morally gray, it actually
25:05becomes, I think, kind of unfun for the player, which is, which is, I think, what we were talking about
25:11in that regard. Like, if it gets too morally gray, it's hard to understand like what my reward is
25:19going to be. And you can reward the player for whatever outcome it is. And you should reward the
25:22player for whatever outcome. But I think it's really helpful if you give the player some sort
25:28of context going into a decision, they at least are making a relatively informed choice. And it's not
25:34the sort of trolley problem where it's like, no matter what I do, I feel like I'm losing. So I
25:40think that's hard to do. I think it's something that kind of have to learn how to create experiences
25:46that the player can at least generally understand what I think the outcome is going to be. And then
25:52when they do that thing, then reward them for it in an appropriate fashion. And then let them know that
25:58that's how that worked out was because of the decision they made. I think if you could not line up all of
26:02those things and do that well, it'll be great. So we struggled quite a bit, especially on a first
26:10project when we were making that, because we made some of the choices with consequences far later into
26:20the game. And when the consequences presented themselves, players felt like they were probably
26:29cheated a little bit. They don't understand what to do. So we came up with an idea that probably most of
26:39the choices should have immediate consequences and then also long term consequences. And all the context
26:47we're providing give a lot of hints about the immediate consequences. What should be happening right now?
26:54What you're going into? And there are some things about what will be happening on the grand scale of things. And if you're
27:03into narrative, if you're reading it carefully, then you probably know the surprises along the way.
27:14If you're not or if you're not that interested, sometimes
27:17that was because of this. And yeah, we also use UI for that. We have a highlighted text that
27:26as that happened because you did that and that. And a lot of RPGs these days just use that to remind player
27:35why this happened, especially if they're like a lot of like 100 hours long.
27:41Okay. A quick question for you guys. Just what do you prefer more? A predefined character or a
27:51completely customized character?
27:53Oh, I think it's...
27:58You did both with your last two games.
28:01I mean, kind of, right? Even V is, you know, like, it's not an unwritten piece of paper, right?
28:05Oh, that's true. Oh, it depends. Like, personally, I like both. It really depends on the ride that
28:12the game is taking me for. I'm very happy to either, you know, adopt a persona and just kind of try to
28:20play from the perspective of a pre-existing character. Or if I'm giving the complete freedom,
28:26like a Baldur's Gate, for example, I just go wild.
28:29Yeah, for me, I'll say completely customizable. I agree. I'm totally fine with both. I think
28:36role-playing games can be super successful and super fun with pre-made characters. I love them.
28:43But yeah, I would say completely customizable.
28:46It's also completely customizable for me, but it's mostly for Western RPGs. If we are talking about JRPGs,
28:55that I prefer pre-made ones that are part of the stories.
29:01That's cool. So going from the player character to NPCs, because in an RPG, it's not only important
29:08that the player character is interesting, you also need NPCs that are interesting and you want to
29:14interact with them. And they also need to have specific characters and not just be like a walking
29:20quest for me. So what is important and how do you make a good NPC character? What to look out for
29:35so the player can really identify with them?
29:40Am I starting?
29:41Honestly, I'm a level design lead. There's people much smarter than us that deal with doing that.
29:50But one thing that I can say is that I strongly feel that the characters that give the quests are
29:57often even more important than what happens in the quests themselves. Because this is actually how...
30:03If you're really mean, you can break any quest down to what I guess people refer to as fetch quests.
30:09Right? Like any mission that you do at the deepest of its core at some point goes,
30:15please do me a favor so you can get X or whatever. Right? And it really is the characters and what
30:20happens in it. The game competes, you know, like how the game addresses your sort of like choices and
30:27content you can do, allows you to express yourself in that, that make the content interesting. Right?
30:33Not necessarily what you have to do specifically, but how it's wrapped up. And I think for Witcher 3,
30:39this is what we did a lot with like, especially the smallest content where we're trying to at least
30:44have the, you know, like, even if the quest was literally like, go, get me my pan. Yeah. A quest
30:50that a lot of people liked in the prologue of the game. But we made it cool because the grandma that
30:56talked to it, that gives you a task to literally just get her pan from the house, you know, is actually
31:01cool and fascinating character to do. And the way Geralt also behaves in the context is interesting and almost
31:07comedic. Right? But then like, I think that's really the, the super important aspect to consider.
31:15Yeah, I think for, uh, for Obsidian games, at least most of our games, I think because we go for
31:21completely customizable main characters, companions become critical because they actually become a
31:27component in telling the story. And oftentimes that the companion quests and their quest lines and the story
31:34that they're going to tell you and how they interact with the main story of the game can be like the
31:40most important storytelling moments that we have. And so, uh, we really have to think hard from the
31:47get-go about what do we want each of those companions to actually sort of address in the story? What is the
31:52part that they're telling? Um, you know, and there's some really basic stuff you're going to think about, too,
31:56like, well, I want a fighter. I want a sport character. I want to, you know, whatever the player is not
32:01going to pick, I need a companion to fill that role. And, and how do we do that in an interesting
32:06way? Like, cause you inevitably on RPGs, you're going to get stuck on tropes. Um, you know, but like,
32:13how do you, how do you try and defeat that by, by doing something that feels original and new with
32:17that character? And I think, you know, when, when you're approaching it, those are the big challenges,
32:22but, but you're really kind of solving the same problems and, and just getting a really cool
32:27cast of companion characters can, can really bring a game to life. And I think that's what we're
32:32usually shooting for. For companions, I completely agree with you, but also we strive to make
32:42companions so they give you some kind of emotion. Uh, uh, they could be not always good emotions.
32:50Sometimes it's good to hate your companion. Like you're meeting a companion and he's murdering his
32:56own people because of, uh, his own reasoning, his solid reasoning. And you just, you're doing right
33:03things, uh, right things in the moment, but you're completely immoral. I hate you. I, I will never
33:09take you with my partner. Please go away. And it different emotion or companion could be annoying and
33:17like omni knowing, always present. Some, somebody would love him, somebody would hate him, but emotions
33:24are great. And for ordinary NPCs, in my opinion, they should be relatable. Uh, they should have some
33:32problems you do understand or can relate to like, uh, and translate to your own life. And then when you
33:40you, uh, converse with them and have some small choices during the dialogues, you transfer those
33:47choices to yourself and answer from your heart. And that makes them very personal.
33:53Yeah. It's also, uh, in my experience, the companions I like most in RPGs are
33:58usually the ones that maybe start out with having like a very different view than I. And, uh, there's some
34:05sort of conflict happening, but then once you get to know them better and understand what they're
34:11all about, then you really start to like them as opposed to an opinion, a companion that will from
34:16the get-go just be your best friend and help you through everything. That's usually less interesting,
34:22I think. Agreed. Yeah. Chad has asked, uh, regarding that, um, how much, how important is romancing
34:31options for you guys? Since it is always a thing in any RPG, people will always ask, is there romance?
34:39Which characters can we romance? Everybody asks for it. My personal opinion is, uh, I can take it or
34:45leave it. Like, I think for certain games, it makes sense and is really cool and is, and is a fun option
34:51that you can build in for companions. But I have never played a role-playing game that, that didn't have
34:58romances that I was like, well, that game was crap. Yeah. Like, you know, it, it really just depends
35:03on the game and then what you're trying to accomplish. So that's how I feel about it. I know
35:07there's a million people out there that absolutely are like throwing stuff at their monitor right now,
35:12saying how stupid I am because they want to romance every character. Uh, but, uh, that's just,
35:17you know, that's my opinion. Not just characters. Yeah. Uh, wow. I, you know, personally, I always think
35:26of like, of the context for it, right? Um, I feel in Cyberpunk, for example, the romances are,
35:34they, they have this cool meta layer for it where it's a world that really thrives on isolating
35:40the individual, right? Like people are, you know, disconnected from each other by the technologies that
35:45they use every day, actually more or less. And there's a certain, like, at least that's how we
35:50kind of thought about it, right? There's a certain beauty in like, despite of how horrible that world
35:55is, being able to find moments of intimacy, right? And, uh, and, and developing these, uh, feelings
36:01between characters, uh, and sometimes between players actually. And, uh, and so I think, you know,
36:08if it kind of fits the context of the game and really adds to it, right? Uh, I feel it can be a
36:16really beneficial tool to do character building also, right? And, uh, make the player also feel more
36:21connected to the world. Yeah. If your game have companions and you're building some sort of
36:30relationship with them, um, then romance, uh, become like, uh, normal choice. Like in life, if you're
36:38spending a lot of time alongside with a companion, probably in very difficult situations, sometimes
36:44that could lead to some kind of, uh, romantic relationships. So if game is like that, we are
36:53trying to incorporate these options because it feels natural, not because it's like a drop down list.
37:00You should do romances in your game, but it's, um, it's interesting to see, uh, romances with certain
37:08characters in certain situations. Like for example, there is a world ending and probably this is
37:14last thing you will ever do. Who will you choose? How will you spend the last time? It's interesting
37:20topic. It brings emotions and it brings you, um, those decisions you are trying to understand,
37:26trying to put yourself in this situation and solve it somehow. And that, that leads to interesting
37:33storytelling. But if game is built up in different way, then romance is not necessary. It's,
37:42in a way, it's a great tool to highlight your characters and emotions.
37:46Well, it's about taking your, your characters seriously, right? And not just have like them
37:52being like a playground for the player to do whatever, uh, he wants or she wants with them.
37:58Um, I had this, uh, moment in, in Baldur's Gate 3 actually, where I was, uh, I was trying to approach
38:04Shadowheart and, um, I didn't say the right things that she wanted to hear. And I think she didn't think I was
38:12very sympathetic at that moment. So, uh, like a certain romantic interaction just didn't happen.
38:19And that was kind of eye-opening for me because in some games, like romancing a character means just
38:24hit the flirt button whenever it appears. And then, uh, we know, ah, okay, you want to romance, uh, that
38:30NPC? Okay, we give you that option as soon as, uh, the right time comes. And I thought that was so cool
38:37that they just said, no, you, you said something she didn't like, so this is not going to happen.
38:42Uh, because I really felt like, okay, she's a character they are taking seriously right now.
38:47She has her own thoughts and, uh, and feelings in that, in that moment. So that was cool.
38:52Yeah. It's not like, like the coin machine where it just ends that coin for romance, right?
38:56Yeah, that's true.
38:57No, no, we'd never do that. It's like degrading to characters. It's, uh, yeah, you have to,
39:05I wouldn't like to say work for, for a romance, but you build up a relationship and kind of work.
39:11And you should understand the character, what, what particular character likes or dislikes. And,
39:17uh, probably if, uh, as part of his story, he just experienced some traumatic events,
39:23probably you would not go for it or you approach it will be really different.
39:29Yeah. So looking at the future of, uh, role-playing games, of course, we have a lot of technologies,
39:36uh, that, that are being developed. The AI is, uh, is more complex than ever. What for you guys is,
39:43um, like some of the most interesting things that are gonna change role-playing games in the future,
39:51looking at your current projects or also just on what you see, uh, that is coming up.
39:58It's very spicy for me to answer. Like,
40:00you know, it's like,
40:04whatever I will say to people will be like, oh, that's Witcher 4.
40:07Yeah. All right.
40:08Well, we've seen a tech demo that was not Witcher 4, but showcasing the tech behind Witcher 4,
40:14where you guys are already showed like a lot of AI systems that were quite advanced. So maybe
40:20from your perspective as a level designer?
40:24I was trying to save myself, like pushing myself on a, like a personal level of what I'd hope to see,
40:28right? Is that, um, other than of course, you know, keeping the bar up higher for, for narratives and,
40:35and good characters and stories and our favorite RPGs. I, I think even though it's like a very difficult
40:43quest for developers, I, I would love to see worlds generally become more reactive, but like that
40:48reactivity also tied into, um, the narrative as well, right? Like, I guess a big example that,
40:57you know, it's maybe a negative example, even in our own games, um, is that you have destruction,
41:04you can run around and just kind of break stuff, uh, other than people just kind of going,
41:10woo, no, nothing really happens, right? And I feel like there's the, like, developers in general are
41:15probably under utilizing, for good reasons in part, um, the, uh, this as a tool in the, in the
41:23player's box of toys that they have to mess with the world and cause, cause interactions.
41:28Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think that's, that's interesting. Yeah. Um, for me personally,
41:37kind of technology is a tool to solve a problem for a particular project. So if you have a great idea
41:45in mind and you want, uh, it could be revolution or it could be different, then you look for technology
41:53to support you. It's not like, uh, you're forced to include it in every project. So, and I see that,
42:04so for me, it kind of difficult to answer which new technology, um, advances the game, because if
42:11there will be a great idea that explores something unmatchable now, and you will build technology for
42:18that, uh, it will be advancing the game, but we don't know now because our current project, uh, different.
42:26And, um, one thing I could, uh, suggest is the way we approach narrative in games regarding to,
42:38if you're playing game for a long time, you tend to forget a lot of scenes, especially in big cast
42:43of characters, you start to mix them up, uh, especially if you're like playing once in a week
42:50or returning to a game. And, um, recently Final Fantasy 16 introduced what they called active time
42:58law, when at any moment you can press a button and it gives you context who these characters are.
43:05And, uh, you probably meet, meet that particular character at that time. And that particular character
43:11is new to you. And it gives you context and brings you back and allow you to be far deeper into
43:17narrative than you usually are, especially after a break. Uh, it kind of expands on context of terms
43:26and context of, uh, your choices to context of the whole story, characters, and locations. And probably
43:34that's a way to go for a complex narrative games to more, immerse players deeper into the storylines.
43:45I mean, I would just say like, um, I may be getting too, too old school now. Uh, I think that,
43:51I think that the, the choice and consequence in narrative that we've offered players, at least in
43:56really solid role-playing games, uh, is really good. And, and I would love to see that continue. And so,
44:03when I think about technology and tools and what that can sort of bring to that experience, I'm, I'm
44:08a little less excited about that. I'm a little more excited about what can we do with the world
44:12simulation and really bringing the world to life, um, and, and making it feel alive around me, but also
44:20maybe helping me as a player understand how to, how to navigate that a little bit. Um, one thing in, in
44:27some games that, that I sort of have, have grown weary of is getting to the town and feeling like I have
44:32to talk to every single person in the town and we're going to get all the quests and figure out
44:36what maybe I need to do there. And like, how can, how can that world simulation help me, uh, both feel
44:43like I'm in a living, breathing world, but also kind of identify the things that are important around me
44:49in like very, um, natural ways. And so, you know, I think those are the kinds of things where I think
44:55things will evolve and, and always be getting better. And I, you know, can't wait to kind of see that stuff.
45:01Oh yeah. Yeah. I imagine. Yeah. There will be everything like we, we've seen so, so many steps and, and, uh, into
45:10that direction for worlds to be more lively. And of course, for role-playing game, which immersion is
45:16like the most important thing, this is going to be very cool.
45:19One of my favorite moments I keep remembering in an RPG game, I guess in the last five or so years,
45:26I was playing, uh, Divinity 2, uh, with my wife and we had like this super cool moment where we had to
45:32get into the back of a bar to do an investigation. I think it's relatively at the beginning of the game.
45:38And we were struggling so hard because like, oh my God, we have so many options. Like, do we just go and hit
45:42the box like for five hours and just kind of like get in the key and all that and find the key to get
45:48back inside? And my mind was blown at the moment when how we actually ultimately solved it was that
45:54literally I was, um, talking to the NPC and we noticed that with the vision cone and all that,
46:01the character would be turning towards me as they talked. And so what I ended up doing is literally just,
46:07I occupied him with the conversation when my wife snuck in on the back, you know, right behind him
46:13and went inside. And like, this is the kind of stuff I mean with this sort of reactivity and interactivity,
46:18right? Giving the player more and more options to not just sort of force choice and consequence
46:25through dialogue, but also through gameplay actions, right? Like, and the way they interact with the world.
46:29And I think if we can see more of that, like, you know, there will be so many more cool emergent
46:34systemic moments, uh, that players can have and like stories like these are players we remember.
46:39And I'd love to see that. Yeah. So Alex, um, we've talked a lot about, uh, like the difference between,
46:47there's a difference between isometric RPGs and, uh, third person RPGs. And you just made that step from
46:54going from an isometric perspective to third person, really close, uh, very, uh, defined graphics.
47:03Um, what were the most important challenges and how do you approach it differently?
47:12It, uh, it changed almost everything, uh, because I'm kind of joining from isometric
47:20perspective, joining you guys with... Yeah, joining them. Yeah. Um, first of all, when you're writing for
47:28isometric, you are writing kind of a little bit like a book and, uh, the story is, uh, uh, more slowly
47:38paced. You have a lot of space for descriptions. When you go into a third person you want, you're not going
47:46because, uh, it just looks pretty. You want to have cinematographic experience and you move from book
47:52to movie and characters start talking differently. Your expression tools become different palette.
48:02Um, and that lead to changes in almost every aspect of productions that we had,
48:11uh, apart from, of course, the technical side of things, like just making a lot of prototype to make
48:17everything work, uh, combat works, uh, dialogue works. It's, uh, mindset of how you tell a story and how
48:26you present choices, uh, through different media. And, uh, so this kind of was, in my opinion, one of
48:35the greatest challenges to, to start thinking and presenting differently. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool.
48:43I had never considered sort of the narrative impact of like, you know, how you would tell
48:49narrative differently depending on the perspective that your game has also, uh, as strongly as that down
48:55to the pacing that you find with it, like down the level of detail and how you can do exposition.
49:00For me as a level designer, like the, the, the more obvious impact is basically the space you need
49:06for the camera and how you need to account for it, right? Like something I brought that in our
49:11conversations up quite often, right? It's like when we switched from a third person in Witcher 3 to
49:16first person in Saurabhan, we were quite surprised how different the perception of space actually is.
49:21And what that means for building spaces where now the character enters a room when they enter the room,
49:27right? And you don't have to account for the extra space of the camera to also follow into the
49:32room and build the room bigger essentially, right? Or how everything needs to be more detailed
49:37because players are much closer looking at things, right? Yeah. Or even when character makes some
49:43remark or interrupt, you have to have space for that because in isometric you can just pop up something
49:50over the head and it works. And now you're just moving through the corridor or through the room
49:58and you have to have space to pronounce those words and they should be relevant to the environment
50:05around you. It kind of make planning far more detailed and essential at the earliest stages of production.
50:15Okay, we're almost done. I have one last question from Chad. You guys can answer very quickly. What is your
50:22favorite RPG that you didn't work on yourself?
50:29Or maybe you can't answer quickly because it's hard.
50:33You can answer also with that too.
50:35My gut feeling just says Mass Effect series.
50:38Okay.
50:40That's a good one. I would pick Mass Effect 2 out of those.
50:43I mean, Baldur's Gate 3 is the most recent one that I played that was pretty stunning and
50:52the companion stories were really fantastic.
50:57Yeah, I would have to think about this one for a while. It's like playing that game. What's your
51:00five games?
51:01Yeah, I know. It's hard.
51:02It's like, I need to write a book about this.
51:04Chad is always asking the hard questions.
51:06You know what? I guess I have to say on a German stage is Gothic, of course, right?
51:11Yeah, we've had a lot of Gothic fans in chat also. Yeah, I would also say Mass Effect,
51:16which of course is cool because you're sort of getting in that direction with your new games.
51:21We're excited for that one.
51:22Yeah, thank you very much. For me, it changes every time because a lot of great games
51:28comes and it just picks up the first spot. So for now, probably for me, it was strange
51:36Persona 5 and with Claire Obscure Expedition 33 being very close.
51:42Oh yeah, that was so good. What an exciting surprise this year.
51:46Yeah, great year for the games.
51:48All right. Thank you so much. It was an honor to talk to you guys and very interesting.
51:53Thanks for coming along. Thanks for having me.
51:57Yeah. Good luck with your future projects. I hope they all go very well.
52:02Excited for the expense of Osiris Reborn.
52:05Thank you.
52:06Bring back a Mass Effect style games.
52:09Thank you.
52:11I'm excited to see what's next for Grounded 2. You're on Olexes right now, right?
52:15Yeah, that's right. We've got a lot of cool stuff coming up. Very exciting.
52:18Not a typical role-playing game or role-playing light survival, right?
52:21Yeah, that whole what is the role-playing game conversation. Not really one.
52:25But yeah, we've got a lot of cool stuff coming up.
52:28Yeah, and of course excited for Witcher 4 also. Whenever you're ready to show something, hit us up.
52:33Yeah, a little wait until we're ready.
52:35Thank you.
52:36Okay, thank you for watching. I hope you liked it a little bit.
52:41I definitely found it very cool and I'm glad to host it here. Thank you for watching.
52:51Bye.
52:53Bye.
52:55Bye.
52:57Bye.
52:59Bye.
Kommentare