'In principle, there are always justifications for trying to limit and curtail threats to national security'

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00:00They've been acclaimed in their native Ireland for their groundbreaking use of the Irish

00:04language in their rap music and been the stars of a hit movie.

00:09But the Belfast rap trio kneecap have long courted controversy, none more so than in

00:14their vocal criticism of Israel over the war in Gaza.

00:18One of the band's members, Machara, real name Liam O'Gahani, is on trial today, charged

00:23with supporting a prescribed terror organisation.

00:27Liam O'Gahani is accused of brandishing a flag of the Lebanese Shiite group Hezbollah at

00:31a London concert last November.

00:33For more on this trial, I can welcome Ethan Shalhoek, lecturer in law at Queen's University

00:39Belfast and a specialist in freedom of expression.

00:42Good morning, Ethan, and thank you for joining us.

00:44Good morning, how are you?

00:46Thanks.

00:47Now, kneecap and their supporters say that Liam O'Gahani is being pursued because of the band's

00:52criticism of Israel and that the trial is really just a distraction from what they say is the

01:00genocide in Gaza.

01:02Do they have a point?

01:05So the main thing is that they've called it both a variation of what they call political

01:10policing from the government and also a carnival of distraction from the actual criticism,

01:14which is what kneecap focus on.

01:16Knecap have been famous in recent times for, I think, most vocally, the criticism of Israel

01:22government and also the UK's complicity with Israel in their aggression against Palestine.

01:27So basically, the contention from kneecap now is that this is not actually a sincere use

01:33of the terrorism legislation.

01:34And it's to clamp down on what they perceive to be their actual substantive critiques of

01:40Israel.

01:41And in that sense, insofar as they're talking about free expression, they certainly have

01:45a point.

01:47There is the actual standards in terms of who they are as artists and satirists, and also

01:53in terms of how legitimate the actual use of the anti-terrorism law actually is.

01:59And I think it's important to redirect to what kneecap themselves in their own words proclaimed

02:04to be, which is, am I quote, blending satire with socially conscious lyrics and mixing

02:10reality with absurdity.

02:12This critique is, I think, an example which epitomises that.

02:15Now, the band described their music as a mix of satire and politics, as you say.

02:21And for anyone familiar with their music or the context in Northern Ireland, which they

02:26grew up in, that is fairly obvious.

02:29But from the outsiders, from the outside, it might be said that if you're stepping outside

02:33of your character, that you incarnate on stage and make political pronouncements like the

02:38band do, the line between satire and real life becomes a little bit muddled.

02:41And after all, the band has had to clarify that they don't support Hamas and Hezbollah.

02:47They've also apologised to the family of a murdered Conservative MP for once telling fans to shoot

02:53a Tory MP.

02:54So are they probably getting to the point where they're getting just a little bit too famous

03:00to really, like, run this line anymore?

03:05This is an important, I think, correct point, that kneecap undeniably, I think, pushed the

03:09boundaries of what you might call permissible expression, even in that political and satire

03:13context.

03:14But I think also two things.

03:15One is that when it comes to things where kneecap perhaps have pushed them, that they

03:22have voluntarily got their own accord, I think, apologised for that.

03:25But certainly they are in their, I think, especially in the last year or so, having had high profile

03:31events in the US, for example, they're well known now globally beyond Ireland.

03:35So that's an important context in terms of their responsibilities as artists.

03:39But I think also in the current context, you have to recall that this is part of the UK's

03:45current attempts to identify and target what's perceived to be terrorist organisations.

03:51And I think in that sense, there has been a lot of controversy about that.

03:55And the UK has used those laws.

03:56And I think what I think is very important and has been somewhat lost in the last few

04:01months is that it isn't just about what we perceive to be as terrorist, not terrorist

04:05speech here.

04:07It's also about the wider implications and context of international human rights law, insofar

04:12as that's important and irrelevant.

04:13And NECAP's proclamations and their artistry and their kind of hedonistic performances has

04:20to be seen in the context of, yes, provocative, yes, hedonistic, and yes, in some ways, certainly

04:27quite out there.

04:28But ultimately, a blend of, yes, satire, but also sincere criticism.

04:34I mean, there's an actual political point which is based off factual events in terms of

04:40international conflict.

04:41I think that context is important, even though, yes, as you hint there, there definitely is

04:46a sense of mixing this free speech with the responsibilities, which I think now are increasingly

04:53important as prominent and well-known artists.

04:57Now, Irish writer Sally Rooney said last week that she would donate royalties paid to her

05:03by the BBC to Palestine Action, which was prescribed by the British government as a terrorist organisation

05:09last month.

05:10Now, this is clear defiance towards Keir Starmer's government after 700 people have been arrested

05:15under the Terrorism Act for supporting Palestine Action.

05:19Does Sally Rooney risk arrest or prosecution next time she sets foot in the UK?

05:23I think it's a possibility, but also she is probably in some ways kind of playing chicken in the

05:31sense of she's kind of calling out, well, actually, is this serious?

05:34How sincere is the use of this law?

05:36It's a very interesting move to prescribe Palestine Action.

05:40You're dumping them in with recognised organisations like Hezbollah and Hamas.

05:44And I think it's also important that this is not just a potential concern as so far as the

05:52right to free expression, but also the right to protest.

05:54These are important things in terms of peaceful assembly.

05:57Looking at the images you see now, the people who are being arrested are often doing so silently

06:02for simply expressing some sympathy towards the Palestine cause.

06:09And I think insofar as that's important, Rooney might have an issue.

06:14But I think it'll be interesting to see how it plays out, because if that was the case,

06:18if she was arrested, I think it would undeniably not only expose the whole importance of the

06:26whole issue, but also perhaps test the boundaries of how sincere they actually are in enforcing

06:33this legislation when it matters and how that pertains to pro-Palestine activism.

06:38And it's a big statement from Salironia.

06:40I think it'll be interesting to see how it actually pans out, if and when she sets foot

06:44back in the UK.

06:47Now, Palestine Action has been prescribed as a terrorist group on the foot of little more

06:51than vandalism to RAF aircraft at Breeze Norton Air Base.

06:55So why is this heavy-handed approach being taken by the government when it itself is beginning

07:00to lose patience with Israel over its actions in Gaza?

07:03I think for many people that the answer kind of confounds us in the sense of, if you actually

07:10look at the actual list of pro-Palestine organisations, you can see a different list of known terrorist

07:15organisations which have a description on the website of the UK's government about why they

07:20are banned and pro-scribed insofar as they are.

07:23And in the context of the listing under Palestine Action, it is, as you mentioned, limited to

07:29citing acts of vandalism and damage as regards property, not people.

07:34That's an important distinction.

07:35And I think, in reality, the justification for why Palestine Action were included in this

07:43kind of list of banned organisations, it could be a cynical move to try and show that you're

07:50not soft on crime or whatever, or it could be some kind of more, as NICAP themselves pertained

07:57to be, a form of political policing.

08:00I mean, there is no singular answer.

08:02What is true and what is probably arguable is that the move to do so is at least questionable

08:10in the context of international human rights standards, both in terms of free expression

08:14and also in the right to protest and peaceful assembly.

08:17Now, having covered the 2019 Hong Kong protests and the subsequent imposition of the national

08:23security law, I'm struck by the parallels between this and the prescription of Palestine

08:28Action.

08:28In both cases, it's a government unwilling to engage with popular contention, responding

08:33instead with a broadly applicable law underpinned by a fairly questionable appeal to national

08:39security.

08:40Now, there's no need to engage in hyperbole and say that the UK is now like China.

08:44But doesn't this undermine the British government's criticisms of crackdowns on human rights,

08:49on human rights, particularly in Hong Kong?

08:53This is an important and excellent point.

08:54And having been to China and North Korea and seeing these things as well, I completely

08:58think that is an important kind of corollary there.

09:00I think it would undermine the actual ostensible or outwardly criticism of different countries

09:07having, let's say, subpar international human rights norms.

09:11It really does question, I mean, if you proclaim to value the notion of free speech and not

09:16only free speech, but also protest of political activities and holding officials to power to

09:22account, then it's highly questionable.

09:25And again, this is a case of, yes, on paper and in principle, there are always justifications

09:30for trying to limit and curtail threats to national security and prevent the order of crime.

09:36But again, in reality, in practice, and also importantly, in the context of things like

09:42artists and increasingly writers and performers, you have to be honest about what you're doing

09:48and the reasons for doing so.

09:50And again, as you can see, people who are being detained under this legislation are very

09:55often doing so peacefully.

09:57And their statements are quite simple, often limited to, I support policy and action.

10:02You know, this is very simplistic language often.

10:05So it really calls into the question the UK government's decision to have this staunch

10:11and stubborn, persistent pursuit of people who are ultimately doing things that perhaps

10:18even a few years ago might not be seen in the UK to be objectionable or at least not worthy

10:24of prosecution.

10:25Thank you very much for that, Ethan Shattuck, lecturer in law at Queen's University, Belfast.

10:29And if you're a fan of kneecap, they will be playing this weekend at Rock on Seine in Paris

10:36on Sunday.

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