- 7 weeks ago
John and Jeff discuss the radical transformation of Vance Boelter, a former college friend who became involved in a destructive religious group. Jeff recounts how Vance went from being a fun, sports-loving freshman to abruptly quitting the baseball team and declaring allegiance to a mysterious off-campus religious group. The episode explores the behavioral shifts Jeff witnessed—emotional withdrawal, avoidance of old friends, and adoption of extreme doctrines. John connects these observations to broader patterns of cult recruitment and radicalization, drawing from his own experience and research into fringe religious networks including William Branham’s teachings and the New Apostolic Reformation.
Throughout the discussion, they examine how the group’s secrecy, vague doctrine, and use of prophetic authority signal high-control dynamics. They also explore how Vance’s adoption of the “serpent seed” doctrine—traced to Branham’s theology—paralleled a broader pattern of judgmentalism and emotional detachment. The conversation exposes the difference between joyful faith and coercive religiosity, warning that true Christianity invites open dialogue and points to Christ, not a human leader. Jeff closes by reflecting on how he would confront Vance differently today, emphasizing the importance of grounding one’s beliefs in the gospel and remaining alert to spiritual manipulation.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 John introduces Jeff and the story of Vance Boelter
01:32 Vance’s college life and sudden decision to quit baseball
03:53 Selling belongings and adopting extreme religious views
05:16 Early signs of radicalization and personality changes
07:21 Jeff’s arguments with Vance and increasing isolation
09:12 Vance’s rejection of friends and family ties
11:01 John explains cult doctrines and separation
13:08 Jeff’s reaction to Vance’s recent news coverage
15:01 Media misrepresentation and cult connections
16:23 Serpent seed doctrine and Vance’s book
18:02 Observing the physical and behavioral changes of radicalization
20:55 Comparing cult behavior with genuine faith
23:06 Doctrines taught by the group and Jeff’s confusion
25:27 Historical roots of Vance’s group in Branham’s teachings
27:54 Militant rhetoric and mental health risks
29:40 Lack of deprogramming or testimony from Vance
32:16 Secretive leaders and prophets within the group
34:05 Media and political narratives overshadowing cult influence
36:04 Evidence of serpent seed ideology in Vance’s mindset
37:47 Why true Christianity contrasts with cult behavior
39:01 Connections between Vance’s church and apostolic networks
41:16 Jeff’s skepticism of vague statements of faith
43:40 Advice Jeff would give to Vance if he could go back
45:56 Recognizing false authority and misplaced works-based faith
47:17 Comparing Catholicism and cultic leaders
49:00 John’s experience growing up with serpent seed doctrine
51:00 Reflecting on the dangers of radicalization and control
51:32 Closing thoughts and resources
Jeff's B
Throughout the discussion, they examine how the group’s secrecy, vague doctrine, and use of prophetic authority signal high-control dynamics. They also explore how Vance’s adoption of the “serpent seed” doctrine—traced to Branham’s theology—paralleled a broader pattern of judgmentalism and emotional detachment. The conversation exposes the difference between joyful faith and coercive religiosity, warning that true Christianity invites open dialogue and points to Christ, not a human leader. Jeff closes by reflecting on how he would confront Vance differently today, emphasizing the importance of grounding one’s beliefs in the gospel and remaining alert to spiritual manipulation.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 John introduces Jeff and the story of Vance Boelter
01:32 Vance’s college life and sudden decision to quit baseball
03:53 Selling belongings and adopting extreme religious views
05:16 Early signs of radicalization and personality changes
07:21 Jeff’s arguments with Vance and increasing isolation
09:12 Vance’s rejection of friends and family ties
11:01 John explains cult doctrines and separation
13:08 Jeff’s reaction to Vance’s recent news coverage
15:01 Media misrepresentation and cult connections
16:23 Serpent seed doctrine and Vance’s book
18:02 Observing the physical and behavioral changes of radicalization
20:55 Comparing cult behavior with genuine faith
23:06 Doctrines taught by the group and Jeff’s confusion
25:27 Historical roots of Vance’s group in Branham’s teachings
27:54 Militant rhetoric and mental health risks
29:40 Lack of deprogramming or testimony from Vance
32:16 Secretive leaders and prophets within the group
34:05 Media and political narratives overshadowing cult influence
36:04 Evidence of serpent seed ideology in Vance’s mindset
37:47 Why true Christianity contrasts with cult behavior
39:01 Connections between Vance’s church and apostolic networks
41:16 Jeff’s skepticism of vague statements of faith
43:40 Advice Jeff would give to Vance if he could go back
45:56 Recognizing false authority and misplaced works-based faith
47:17 Comparing Catholicism and cultic leaders
49:00 John’s experience growing up with serpent seed doctrine
51:00 Reflecting on the dangers of radicalization and control
51:32 Closing thoughts and resources
Jeff's B
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00Transcription by CastingWords
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:43And with me, I have my very special guest, Jeff Petrica.
00:46Jeff, it's good to have you.
00:48And this is going to be a little bit unusual for our stories because usually on the Fridays when we have these testimonies,
00:57they're people who are talking about coming out of a cult or leaving some sort of destructive group.
01:02And it's about their story and their story of how they're escaping.
01:07But never we have the people who are on the outside looking in as people are being recruited into these cults.
01:13And your connection is very special because you watch the recruitment of somebody and watch the shift and the change and can describe this.
01:22And it's very clear what you witness when you describe it.
01:27I think the audience will pick up on this.
01:29But it is also a notable conversion because this is – we're going to be talking about your connection to Vance Belter.
01:37Belter, who was the person who murdered the Democratic State Representative Melissa Hortman and her husband, Mark Hortman.
01:45And wounded, who was it, John Huffman and his wife, I think her name was Yvette.
01:51So this is a notable conversion into a cult.
01:54And we don't yet have all the answers.
01:56We don't know if the cult was the – you know, the cult extremism was the primary reason or if there were outside factors.
02:04All we do know is that Vance was connected to Christ for the Nations.
02:09He openly admitted this in a sermon.
02:11And we have been digging into the archives of the church that he was attending, and we found out that there is a strong connection to IHOP KC, International House of Prayer in Kansas City.
02:23We were able to find sermons where the minister or the speaker was talking about books that was written by Mike Bickle and talking about, you know, the International House of Prayer in general.
02:36So there was this connection.
02:37They were in the same – apparently the same apostolic network.
02:41So, anyway, it's good to have you on.
02:43This is going to be, like I said, a bit unusual, but maybe you could just tell everybody a little bit about yourself.
02:49Well, I'm Jeff Petrica.
02:51I live in North Dakota now, but I went to St. Cloud State in 1985 where I met Vance Belter.
03:01And he was just a typical freshman, just like I was.
03:04We were both – you know, we learned that we were going to try out for the baseball team.
03:09So I got to know him right away, you know, probably the first day, you know, I moved in.
03:16I mean, I met Vance, and we started going to baseball practice together.
03:21He was a normal guy, you know, just really funny.
03:25I remember that about him.
03:27You know, he'd make me laugh all the time and, you know, make off-color jokes.
03:32Never talked about religion or his faith or anything like that.
03:36We talked about baseball mainly and then, you know, other things about school.
03:41So he was, you know, just becoming a fast friend, let's put it that way.
03:47And then about, I want to say, two to three weeks into our freshman year, Vance came to my room and wanted to quit the –
03:56sorry, he told me he wanted to quit the baseball team, and I asked him why.
04:01And he didn't answer me, and he wanted to sell me his baseball bat, which was really expensive at that time.
04:07And I was like, sure, I'll buy it, but I only have, like, $5.
04:12I don't know what I had, but it wasn't much.
04:14And he said, that's fine, I'll take it.
04:17And was this odd?
04:20And I said, Vance, what are you going to do now, or why are you doing this?
04:25Because he was a very good baseball player.
04:27He's the son of a – the head baseball coach of his high school.
04:33And, you know, just a really good player.
04:36He had a better chance to make the team than I did, I thought.
04:39You know, he was very talented and didn't make sense to me.
04:43And he said, well, I met these people, and they told me I have to sell everything and quit the baseball team,
04:54and I'm going to do it.
04:55And it was like, you know, talking to a zombie at that point.
05:00And I thought it was weird.
05:02I said, well, why would you do that?
05:04You know, well, because I'm going to be all in for Jesus now, and they told me this is what I have to do.
05:11And it didn't make sense to me.
05:13I bet it didn't.
05:15You know, we've been talking about radicalization with regards to Belter.
05:19And one of the things that happens whenever somebody becomes radicalized is there's this noticeable change,
05:26this noticeable shift in their personality.
05:29And whenever it happens, there's different terms that they use.
05:33Some people will say, I'm taking off the old self, and I'm putting on the new.
05:37And what it is essentially is they're giving up the things that are part of their makeup, their personality, like baseball.
05:43And they're saying that they're trying to convince themselves that they no longer like it, and they become very condemning of others as they do it.
05:51So I'm certain that this had to have had an impact on you.
05:54What did you do whenever he started saying these things?
05:59You know, just kind of shrugged it off.
06:01But I was disappointed that he was doing, you know, I kind of felt like he maybe was going through a phase, maybe a bad day or something.
06:10But it wasn't.
06:11He was definitely going to quit, and he was done.
06:17And he was going to move out at the end of the quarter.
06:21And I was in a room with three guys, so he had just one roommate.
06:27And when he was moving out, I saw an opening in his room, so I asked Vance if I could have his spot.
06:33And he said, sure.
06:33But after that point, we weren't friends.
06:41He had nothing to do with anybody on the floor.
06:43He thought we were all heathens.
06:45We were all going to hell.
06:47His newfound faith was it.
06:49His sect that he joined was it.
06:53And these people were off campus, kept seeing them off campus for some reason.
06:59He never named them.
07:01He never named who they were.
07:02I was like, well, which church did you join, or who are these people?
07:06And he wouldn't tell us.
07:08He would just go into a zombie state, let's put it that way.
07:15And every day, it just got worse.
07:18So I found myself arguing with him more as I saw him.
07:22Like, why would you do this, Vance?
07:24And I think I actually, if I remember, I actually accused him of joining a cult.
07:30Are these cult members, or what's the deal?
07:33Because you're totally different than you were.
07:37And he's like, good, I'm glad you see that.
07:40And he was happy that he was a zombie now and a religious zealot.
07:45And we argued, and he just wouldn't have anything of it.
07:52And then at the end of the quarter, which was in November, he moved out.
07:59And his roommate was from the same town he was, Sleepy Eye, Minnesota.
08:05And his name was Bob Schumacher.
08:09And I moved in with Bob.
08:11And, you know, you're 18 at the time, and we're all, we just left home.
08:16That's one of the odd things about joining a cult.
08:18I think when you are recruited into a cult, in the back of your mind, you have to realize
08:23that something is not quite right.
08:25Because you'll never, if you try to recruit other people, or even interact with other people,
08:30you never tell them who the leader is, what the group name is.
08:34You won't even talk about some of the more bizarre doctrines.
08:38If you do talk about it, you just speak very superficially.
08:41You'll talk about things that people aren't going to think you're crazy for.
08:45Because if you were to just unload and tell everything about the cult,
08:48they would throw their hands up and say, hey, man, you're in a cult.
08:52So it matches the pattern, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
08:56Were there other religious groups that were on your campus?
09:00Like, was this an odd thing for you?
09:02Or did he have interactions with other Christian people?
09:07There was Campus Crusade for Christ at the time.
09:10You know, they were always out handing out flyers and asking people to go to their meetings.
09:15But I never seen Vance, like, in his group.
09:18So we just, or I personally just said, well, he joined the cult.
09:24He's gone.
09:25Never saw him again.
09:27But it was so impressionable to me at that point because of that transformation.
09:35Like, he just went from a really decent, fun guy to be around and baseball player to this.
09:44And I asked Vance, I didn't tell this to Steve during his interview with Dr. Hassen,
09:50but I do remember one of our arguments.
09:56I asked him, I said, well, I thought you're following Jesus now, Vance.
09:59Why are you so unhappy?
10:01Because he was just a different person.
10:04He was not, he wouldn't joke around.
10:07He was just serious.
10:09And just seemed really unhappy with me, with everybody, with the world, with the college,
10:15with everybody.
10:17And I asked him, well, why are you so unhappy, Vance?
10:20And he said, well, because I got to live with you guys for, till November, till I can move out.
10:27And then I can go into it with my family.
10:30I said, well, they're not your family.
10:31Yeah, they are.
10:32They're my new family, you would say.
10:34And I remember that.
10:36And that matches the pattern.
10:37You know, it's odd because when you join one of these groups, you start to replace your old family.
10:42And it's not necessarily that the group leader is saying, hey, you need to go replace your family.
10:47But because of the doctrines that they're teaching do not align with your family's ideology,
10:53you start to try to separate yourself from them.
10:56And they will, some of the doctrines they'll preach, they'll say that we need to separate ourselves.
11:01We are a separate people.
11:03And people who are listening follow that out to its conclusion.
11:06Well, I have friends who don't believe this.
11:08I need to separate from them.
11:09I have family who don't believe this.
11:11And after the fact, whenever something bad like this happens, whenever they go interview the cult, you know, the leaders in the cult, they'll say, well, I never told them to separate.
11:22I never told them to sever all their connections.
11:24But they're preaching a doctrine that suggests that they should.
11:27And so that's largely what happened.
11:30Whenever all of this was happening with you personally, were you a Christian at the time?
11:35I professed to be a Christian at the time, too.
11:39I was Catholic at the time.
11:41And I said, you know, I believe in Jesus, Vance.
11:44And you just wouldn't have anything of that at all.
11:48He's like, no, you don't.
11:50No, you don't.
11:52We do.
11:52And in order to, you know, he never asked me, though.
11:56He never asked anybody on the floor.
11:58He never asked, as far as I know, to come with them, you know, to one of his meetings with these people.
12:05He never, you know, came up and shared the gospel with me.
12:10As far as I remember, he never mentioned anything of that.
12:14It was just like antagonistic attitude towards me all of a sudden.
12:19And I was, you know, definitely mad at the time because they took my friend away.
12:27You know, here's a guy that I have friends with.
12:30Also, we're not friends anymore.
12:32We're arguing and never saw him again until 40 years later, seeing him on the news that he killed these people.
12:42I'm like, that can't be the same Vance Belter because at that time he was, I don't know about the, you know, this cult that he joined, but he was pharisaic.
12:53He condemned everybody.
12:56We were all the murderers and adulterers and liars and cheaters.
13:01And, you know, he was going around judging everybody.
13:05And so that's the last impression I had of him 40 years ago.
13:09So 40 years ago, you were connected to Vance Belter and you watched him become radicalized, watched him change the shift in the personality, cutting off friends and family, all of the things that usually happen when you join a cult.
13:22And then now, 40 years later, you're starting to see him in the news.
13:27And tell me a little bit about that.
13:29How did all of this play out?
13:31How did you reconnect with the story of Vance Belter?
13:34Seeing the interviews with his roommate, things weren't adding up for me.
13:40And then I was just curious what the heck happened to him.
13:45And I, you know, went on YouTube and I did a search, you know, Vance Belter and Christianity, or I can't remember what the search was, but you guys came up and it said cult.
13:57And I immediately clicked on it because I was like, that's it.
14:02That's them.
14:04That's got to be them.
14:05And everything you were saying during that interview with Dr. Hassan was like ringing true, like everything about what I experienced with Vance, you know, at that time.
14:19But the narrative of him was that I don't think the media had a grasp on who this guy was, what is Christianity or lack thereof.
14:35You know, they had no clue on that.
14:37No, they don't.
14:38And I've taken issue with that.
14:40The way that they paint this, and not all, but most of the news outlets, is they want to connect it to Christianity and say that this is just conservative Christianity gone wild.
14:50And they're not really understanding the fact that he's been radicalized by a cult.
14:54And if you trace the roots of the cult, like I said, we can trace it all the way back to groups that are connected to IHOPKC.
15:01We have him on record saying that he's connected to Christ for the nations.
15:04So he's definitely in one of the groups that is in, you know, one of these apostolic networks of the New Apostolic Reformation.
15:12So he's definitely been radicalized.
15:14And you can't really say that all evangelicals or all conservative Christians meet this pattern.
15:20So, like I said, I take issue with that.
15:23I was just curious.
15:24Like I said, that's how I stumbled upon you guys.
15:27And how, you know, what cult did he join?
15:32And you guys shed light on that.
15:35So that's basically in a nutshell where I'm coming from on it.
15:38So after Steve and I did that interview, you contacted Steve.
15:43And Steve informed me that you were aware that Vance Belter had connections to Serpent Seed, which is one of William Branham's core doctrines.
15:52If you're in the message following of William Branham, you have to believe Serpent Seed because that's part of the mysteries that were revealed to the last and dying age, according to Branham.
16:03And it traces all the way back.
16:04You can trace it all the way into Christian identity.
16:08And we have Gordon Lindsay, the founder of Christ for the Nations Institute, who's speaking at keynote conferences for Christian identity groups.
16:15So we know that there is some connection in the history of Branhamism, but you mentioned that there was this connection to Serpent Seed with Vance Belter.
16:25Can you talk about that a little bit?
16:27The guy from the New York Times sent me this book that Vance wrote that's no longer available on Amazon.
16:36It's called Original Ability.
16:38And then in the description, it said something about Serpent Seed and how the serpent had, you know, studying Original Ability comes from the William Branham, I think, ideology, where the serpent had sex with Eve, and then they produced Cain, and everybody from Cain is the serpent seed.
17:03And that's the delusional theology on that.
17:07And Vance wrote a book about it.
17:10So Vance wrote a book about Serpent Seed, and like I said, it's one of the core doctrines of Branhamism.
17:15You have to believe this.
17:17And to the people who aren't not familiar, Serpent Seed is the notion that in the Garden of Eden, that the serpent mated with Eve to produce Cain, and Cain produced this evil bloodline that's introduced into the world.
17:31So you have literally the good guys versus the bad guys all throughout time.
17:35Well, those who follow that teaching out to its logical conclusion, it means that in today's world, we have these people.
17:43You can't detect them.
17:44You don't know if they're descended from the evil one or if they're descended from the good one.
17:49But among us are evil people.
17:51And this leads to all kinds of problems, especially if somebody has mental health issues.
17:57So Vance wrote this book about Serpent Seed.
18:00Let's talk a little bit about his radicalization, though.
18:03I want to focus on that a bit more because I don't think people recognize how odd this is whenever you're on the outside looking in and you see it.
18:13When it happens to you, you don't realize it, but those around you can notice.
18:18Physically, you start to notice a change sometimes in their eyes or their behaviors.
18:23Talk about the radicalization.
18:25What was that like when you watched him become a different person?
18:29When he took off the old man and put on the new, what did that look like?
18:33Just physically, there was physical aspects to him.
18:37I mean, he would just, I think there was a picture of him when he got arrested.
18:44That zombie look, that's basically how he looked in 1985.
18:49All of a sudden, he was like that.
18:50So that, to me, was weird.
18:53And then his general attitude was dismissive, very argumentative.
19:01Like, all of a sudden, we never argued before that point about anything.
19:04And he'd put you down like your faith is, no, that's not the right faith or, you know, you don't know who Jesus is.
19:15So you're fooling yourself and things like that.
19:19But just very dismissive.
19:22So that's kind of what, you know, that transformation to that from just an easygoing guy to that.
19:29And very zombie-like.
19:34Like, he'd stare right through you.
19:36Like, you're talking to, I'm talking to you right now.
19:39You wouldn't be listening.
19:40You'd be looking, like, past you.
19:42I know exactly what you're talking about.
19:44After I started to deprogram and get out of this mindset, I recognized myself actually doing this.
19:51And I noticed as, you know, we stayed in the cult a little bit after mentally I had escaped.
19:57And I would watch others that would do that.
19:59They would just stare right past your eyes.
20:01And it's, I think I read it in Dr. Hassan's book.
20:04He talked about that's a form of mild hypnosis.
20:07Whenever you look past somebody's eyes, they're trying to make eye contact with you and they can't because you're looking past them.
20:14But, you know, it's crazy the way that whenever you are radicalized and this thing happens to you, in your face, you can just, you can see it all over the person.
20:25But while you're in it, you don't, you know, you don't recognize that this is happening to you.
20:30So it's interesting to hear you talk about watching it happen to your friend and seeing all of the changes that are happening that he likely is unaware.
20:40You know, you can see it, like I said, right all over their face.
20:43The facial expressions, like, went from, you know, you can tell, like, someone that's very unhappy.
20:53Like, he just seemed very unhappy and that's why I confronted him with that.
20:56I thought you were following Jesus.
20:59I thought you'd be happy, joyful.
21:01And he's frowning and just very, very serious looking and that stare.
21:09And I don't, that's why I asked, I asked Dr. Hassan, I was like, do they do some type of mind control or to make them act that way?
21:19And he said, yeah, that's basically the transformation into that.
21:24But it was quick, John.
21:27It was like three weeks.
21:31And I don't know how long he was seeing these people, like how long they were recruiting him.
21:38But it was like three weeks.
21:41He was gone.
21:42It's really sad.
21:43You know, as you're losing your friend, you're watching this happen to him.
21:47Deep inside, his authentic self had to have known that he was joining a cult.
21:51He was crying out for help but really couldn't get it.
21:55And inside, he has to know that something's wrong.
21:58So it's really sad.
22:00And when you compare this to Christianity, Christianity, I've watched in the churches that we've attended, I've watched people convert to Christianity.
22:08And they become happy.
22:09They become joyful.
22:11They want to talk to people about Christ.
22:14They don't want to go into seclusion and try to keep it a secret.
22:18They've joined this group and understanding that, you know, if they were to tell all of the things about the group, somebody might think that they're a little bit weird or off.
22:27Joining Christianity isn't like this.
22:30It's so much different.
22:30If this was a Christian community that he joined, he would think he'd come back and try to share the gospel with everybody, you know.
22:39And this is, you know, you need to place your faith in Jesus Christ and believe on him.
22:48Kind of what Acts 16 teaches with the Philippian jailer.
22:53You know, he never did that.
22:57So that was just another indication.
22:59I knew he joined.
23:00And it wasn't a Christian cult or it was just a cult under the guise of Christianity.
23:08After he was recruited, did he share any of the doctrines that they were teaching him in this new group?
23:14I can't recall what specific doctrines, but they were out there.
23:19As I remember, they weren't, you know, growing up Catholic, it was not anywhere near what I believed at the time.
23:27So, it was totally, it was totally out there.
23:35But I can't remember any specific doctrines he would, the selling of things, I guess, would have been something I really wasn't exposed to or heard of in my 18 years that you're supposed to sell everything and quit the baseball team.
23:51Quit what you're telling, you know, God-given talent.
23:55You're supposed to just give all that up.
23:59I never heard of that, you know, being.
24:03I mean, so that was, that was a little different.
24:05I guess, you know, if you look at Mark 1, you know, you could say that the apostles, when they met Jesus, you know, they dropped their nets and followed him.
24:16And I understand that, they gave up everything, but whoever Vance joined wasn't Jesus Christ.
24:24Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
24:37You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
24:45On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
24:59You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
25:05If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
25:12And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
25:18On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
25:23So as I said, we've been, you know, trying to trace the roots back and understand from a religious standpoint what was happening with Vance Belter.
25:30The moment that we found out that he was connected to Christ for the Nations, and Christ for the Nation is deeply connected to Branhamism, Gordon Lindsay, who founded the group, was Branham's campaign manager.
25:43And Lindsay helped publish the Voice of Healing magazine that literally created the, you know, the revival scene that emerged in the late 1940s and early 1950s.
25:55So there's some deep connections here to Branhamism.
25:57Then on, from another angle, we're looking, as I said, at the church sermons and determining how much of it ties to Branhamism, how much of it is just casual, commonplace, charismatic preaching.
26:11And we're finding names like Mike Bickle, International House of Prayer.
26:15So that brings them into a different category, because the International House of Prayer, as we've displayed in many of our podcasts, was basically Branhamism 2.0.
26:26You had William Branham's protege, Paul Kane, who is teaching basically a rebranding of Branhamism and Christian identity.
26:36He's bringing forward the Joel's Army doctrine, which was also deeply tied to Christian identity.
26:43And they're teaching this end-of-days revival, this end-of-days scene, in a very militant way.
26:50And we've talked about this in depth with Jed Hartley.
26:53Once you start bringing in those militant keywords and language phrases that they use when they're preaching this,
27:00if you're preaching it to somebody who is somewhat mentally unstable, they may act upon some of those militant phrases, which is very, very problematic.
27:11So I see this thing as, you know, multifaceted.
27:15It could have been mental health issues.
27:17It could have been a number of different things.
27:20The clue on that was the, like I said, the book that the New York Times reporter sent me.
27:26That kind of tied with the Branhamism, and he never had a, what do you call it, a deprogramming testimony where he ever left.
27:38So, you know, looking back at some of the clips that I saw him on stage and stuff, that was the same Vance that I knew after he transformed into this.
27:48But that original ability was a big clue, like that tied him to that.
27:58So, but I heard of nothing from him.
28:03I looked, searched the internet, you know, and you, I have a testimony and witness when I left, I left the Catholic Church in 2010, right around there.
28:14And I provided a testimony on why, and what I think I was deceived in, and that type of thing.
28:24So anybody that leaves, like an organization, like you're, you, you were part of the Branhamism, and you left, and you have a deprogramming testimony, I call it.
28:35Or a testimony that says, hey, you know, these guys, I mean, I woke up, and they weren't telling me the truth, and, you know, these guys were wrong.
28:47I didn't hear anything like that with him.
28:50You know, that's just it.
28:51When you're recruited into a cult, like I said, your inner self is, has to be aware.
28:57Deep inside, you have to know that something is wrong here.
28:59Whenever you get fully indoctrinated, and you're in this thing, you start suppressing that inner self, and it's like a coiled spring.
29:07It's just being compressed.
29:09When you escape, and you leave the cult, that spring just bounces free, and we've seen time and time again, people who just want to share their story.
29:17That's why we have the Our Stories segment of the podcast, so that people can do this.
29:23You want to let people know that you're no longer part of this.
29:27That's the way it works.
29:28So, I'm like you.
29:30Without having that, without having any clear separation between him and that group that recruited him, he's probably still of that same mindset, maybe even in still that same group.
29:42I'm absolutely certain he was, because he did not change.
29:48I mean, that's the same, the stuff that he was talking, you know, how he was behaving on the stage in Congo, the video clips of him, the things he was speaking about, that was the same attitude, same message that he was doing when I saw him transform.
30:10I mean, he hadn't changed at all, so I just assume it's the same thing.
30:16So, it wasn't like he went from one cult to the other.
30:22So, I think he started there.
30:24And the people that he mentioned, I don't know if this is the standard practice in this recruitment, but he never, like, he never mentioned their names.
30:33Like, what this name of the church was or name of the people that he joined, he never told me.
30:43But I knew it was a cult.
30:44It's very common.
30:46You know, when you're in a destructive group and you have very, very strange beliefs and ideologies, you don't want to share the stranger things with people so that they see that you're believing in these stranger things.
30:59So, often you won't mention the name.
31:01Like, I was one time with a person who was trying to recruit into Branhamism.
31:06Very unsuccessful, but they were trying to, and they won't come out and say, hey, we want you to join the William Branham cult.
31:13They start out with phrases like, did you know that God sent a prophet?
31:18And they'll talk about, you know, almost talking in riddles.
31:21They'll give you just a little bit of information so that they might can hook you and drag you in and reel you in like a fish.
31:27And then, hopefully, you will gradually become indoctrinated to the stranger things.
31:32But they won't go to the stranger things first because nobody wants to join a cult.
31:37And I think they recognize that.
31:39I do remember one other thing was that he did speak about their leader, and I can't remember the name of it, of the guy he would reference.
31:55Like, so-and-so, this prophet, you know, he talked to God, and he told me this, and, I mean, he told them that, and then they told Vance this.
32:08But he did reference someone as a prophet, like, part of that group.
32:16Yeah, I mean, that's exactly it.
32:18That's how you start out.
32:19God sent a prophet.
32:20The whole premise of his existence was legalistic, you know, very, very phariseic, very judgmental, condemning, that type of thing.
32:36As you see, it's not just group he joined, but some other groups are the same way.
32:41And just total line, you know, legally on everything.
32:48And that fits, too.
32:49I mean, brandimism is basically what you can do to gain yourself and entry into heaven.
32:55It's all about the works that you do, not what Jesus did on the cross.
32:59They had to be, you know, pulling him off.
33:03I don't know how they did it, but they did.
33:05And, like I said, this is the progression, so this helps you where I'm coming from, is that he professed this Christianity.
33:15I thought it was a call all along.
33:18And I just let it go, you know, 18, whatever, shrug him off.
33:23He wrote me off.
33:24I wrote him off.
33:26And that was the end of it, until this.
33:31And I was surprised to see that he committed these murders.
33:35But when I saw clips on the Internet and, you know, talking to the New York Times reporter and seeing the interviews with his roommate, I just, there's nothing that had changed with him.
33:50And that's just it.
33:51You know, if you read the news, they're trying to brand this as this is a evangelical Christian thing or a conservative Christian thing and trying to basically paint all conservative Christians with the same brush.
34:04But they're not understanding the radicalization.
34:06They're not understanding the cult background.
34:09And it's all about the agenda.
34:11If you read the news, unfortunately, you're going to get an agenda.
34:14And it's usually either targeting religion or politics.
34:18So you're going to find with Vance Belter, they're either going to say this is the evangelical or the conservative Christian community that's causing this, or he must have been tied to Trump.
34:29It had nothing to do with Trump, in my opinion.
34:32I think that's where I lost the New York Times reporter because he was trying to make this and, you know, something about MAGA and Trump and that type of thing.
34:43And I said, no, not the Vance that I remember, because Vance, this part, this cult that he joined and the way he was, his behavior, he looked down on everybody that wasn't that legalistic, like, you know, this pharisaic type thing.
35:02And I can't imagine him supporting Trump because of that.
35:07So I said it probably had nothing to do with that.
35:12It was more like some type of insane switch that went off in his head.
35:19But it wasn't Christianity.
35:21And as I explained to Stephen, was that, you know, and I mentioned this earlier, a guy that says he's born again 40 years ago does not commit something like this.
35:32If that was a Christian community, he does not do this.
35:35And the other two clues I said to Stephen is that he, this was a Christian, actual Christian community.
35:47He wouldn't have separated like he did.
35:50He would have came back and shared the gospel with me and other people on the floor and joined the baseball team and shared the gospel to them.
35:58There's no reason to do what he did and leave and never to be heard from again.
36:06Because if you love your neighbor as yourself or you're interested in the good of them, so you want to share, you want them to join you in heaven, not say, well, I'm done with you guys.
36:21But I think it had something to do, you know, if that's another clue for you on the serpent seed,
36:25he may have thought that we were all Cain's children.
36:29You may be right.
36:30You know, in Branhamism, like I said, it's really hard to identify the people who are of the serpent seed.
36:38The only clue they give you basically is if they're in our group, then they're not the serpent seed.
36:42If they're outside of our group, if they don't believe that William Branham is the prophet, then they're the bad guys.
36:49And they don't teach you to go kill them like this guy did.
36:52But if you follow the doctrines out to their logical conclusion, these are the enemies of God.
36:58These are people who deserve everything that you can throw at them.
37:02So I don't know if he made that connection or he made that leap.
37:05It could be.
37:05I don't know.
37:06But it's just really sad when you compare that to Christianity.
37:10It changes you in a different way.
37:12You want to help people.
37:14You want to spread the gospel.
37:16You want to teach them.
37:17And like you said, he would have came back.
37:19He would have done this.
37:20I mean, we were not, you know, worthy enough to hear the gospel from him, I guess, because he just made this determination that we were probably all cane seed.
37:32And maybe this is what he thought these people that he killed, but nothing in the Bible would justify sin, you know, doing what he did.
37:42So that's why I say this is really not a issue of Christianity so much as it is just simply a cult.
37:49That to me was very disappointing.
37:50But it just angered me.
37:53And just knowing that these people back in 1985 took him like that, and he never got out.
38:02He never left.
38:04And then he ends up like this.
38:08And as I talked to the New York Times reporter about this, is where are those people at that time?
38:17Why aren't they coming out to condemn him?
38:20You know, I know Christ for a Nation said something after they were pressed about it because they found out.
38:26I think Stephen's people found out that he went to that school.
38:31And then they finally came out and said, oh, yeah, we condemn what he did.
38:35You know, we have nothing to do with it.
38:38But where are the people like that he met in 1985?
38:42I don't know who they are, but I haven't seen them.
38:47And they would have known that what he did was wrong.
38:50Or maybe they don't think he did what he did was wrong.
38:53I don't know.
38:54Those are the questions I had.
38:56Well, it's hard to say.
38:57You know, it's even hard to say whether or not this was Branhamism.
39:00However, if he's teaching Serpent Seed, it's more than likely a group that at least descended from Branhamism.
39:07This is one of the telltale signs of Branhamism.
39:10So it's hard to say, but like I said, we did examine the sermons from the, you know, from the church that he was going to.
39:18We can find key elements that very similarly mimic what we had in Branhamism.
39:24One of the things that was common that just really stood out to us is that often, very frequently, they would refer to the group as the group as a whole, as the message, or often the speaker would say, I'm bringing you my message.
39:39This is very common in Branhamism.
39:41It's called the message cult.
39:43It's the, you know, it's the message, the message cult following of William Branham.
39:46So they're using those phrases, but that doesn't really necessarily mean that it's Branhamism.
39:52I would say probably it's more a distant sibling of Branhamism, especially because of the Mike Bickle, IHOPKC angle.
40:02If they're tied into the apostolic networks that descended from that, you have this connection where it's like Branhamism, but it has morphed into something else.
40:12And it's very odd to, like, if you look at their website, I've gone to the church's website, and I've just kind of browsed through it.
40:20There's almost nothing on there.
40:21And you go back, I was able to go back through some of the history of the website, and there's just really not much there.
40:28They do have a statement of faith, but it's very minimal.
40:32And whatever this group believes and how they're connected to IHOPKC or Branhamism, if they are, it's just really, it's very, very vague.
40:41It reminds me of the group that you're mentioning recruited him, where they're just not very open about what it is that they believe.
40:48I just read the statement of faith that they had, and I didn't see anything that came out.
40:53I didn't do any more study on it.
40:55And I just told the New York Times guy on the phone after he sent that to me, I said, well, I don't see anything off the top.
41:01I said, I guess if you study it, maybe there's something there.
41:06But I go, just reading a statement of faith, every church can put something like that out, though, to deceive you.
41:13Yeah, that's just it.
41:14You know, like I said, I've been looking into the church.
41:16I can't say with certainty whether it is a destructive cult or not.
41:20It is odd that they don't have much information on their website, and they don't really advertise what it is that they are,
41:26very much other than just a few vague statements.
41:30But it is odd.
41:31I find it odd and confusing at the same time.
41:35But anyway, this has been a fascinating story.
41:37Like I said, I'm very, very interested to hear from people who have watched somebody be recruited,
41:44and all of the weirdness that goes with that.
41:46And it's almost like watching a sci-fi movie where somebody gets taken over or consumed by some evil entity or turned into a zombie.
41:56You can see it on the face.
41:57And that shift and that change, people around you can see it, but you yourself don't even recognize this is happening.
42:04So if you could go back in time to, you know, right before you saw that shift, and you could go back and you're 18 years old,
42:13you're looking at this person who is now being assimilated into a cult, being recruited,
42:18and you start to see that shift in his eyes.
42:21You start to see those things happening to him.
42:24And if you could go back and give some advice to help him and try to warn him of what he's about to get into,
42:33what advice would you give him?
42:34Well, the first thing I would ask him, what is the gospel?
42:37Share that with me.
42:39Share the gospel of Jesus Christ with me.
42:42And if he couldn't do that, that would have been, you know, number one thing I'd point out to him.
42:47Because the gospel is the power of God until salvation.
42:51And if you get the gospel right, you get everything else wrong.
42:54So tell me what that is.
42:56And if he would have brought up prophets and, you know, these end time prophecies or whatever,
43:05I'd say point that out in scripture to me.
43:08You know, if I could do it all over again at that time, I didn't even think of things like this.
43:15But I would ask him more questions, I guess, than argue with him.
43:20Or try to convince him that I'm right and you're wrong.
43:25Because we were probably both wrong at that time.
43:30And I would just ask him more questions like, you know, maybe, I don't know if I would have done it,
43:37but I would have said, well, why don't you bring me along to one of your meetings?
43:42I want to see who these people are.
43:44Because it's very interesting, Vance, you know.
43:46I want to see who these guys are.
43:48And then question the whole thing.
43:53You know, and let's go to scripture.
43:56And let's see where you're coming from and what scripture's teaching.
44:01And where are you getting your interpretation from?
44:04You know, is that, is this this one guy in your cult or your church that you just joined?
44:11Let's go through it, point for point.
44:16But the gospel is the big one.
44:18And I have a blog that I write, a Christian blog.
44:22And I point that out constantly.
44:24If you get that gospel wrong, and that's where you discern other people,
44:30other people can say they're Christians or they're a Christian church or Christian organization.
44:37The members should all be able to recite the gospel.
44:40If you're saved by that gospel, because it's the power of God until salvation,
44:45you should be able to recite it.
44:48What saved you?
44:49What about the good news saved you?
44:52And they should be able to tell you.
44:54And if they can't, and they're not pointing you to Jesus Christ,
45:00rather they're pointing you to their leader, that's another red flag.
45:05So I would ask them, why aren't you, why isn't there any directness with you with Jesus?
45:12Well, why do I have to join your organization?
45:15Why, why this person?
45:18There's nothing in the Bible that tells me to do that.
45:21So, as I pointed out to Stephen, if someone in your neighborhood or a church and says,
45:28we are the way, join us, that red flag should go up.
45:34But your question's a good one.
45:37You know, if I could go back in time, and then knowing the gospel as I know it now,
45:42I would have questioned every single aspect of the gospel that he was pretending to believe.
45:49And I would go point for point on that.
45:53And then the one thing, you know, I was Catholic at the time,
45:57so I would have probably agreed with it, but it's a works-based system.
46:02Sell everything.
46:04You sell everything, you quit everything.
46:07Well, why are you doing that?
46:09Well, because I want to go to heaven.
46:12Well, that's works.
46:13You're placing works on the cross, and there's nothing that tells me to do that.
46:20It's supposed to be a resultant of your salvation.
46:25So, there would have been a lot of questions I would have had of him.
46:28But I write, I mean, I wrote probably three or four blog posts now on what to look out for,
46:35because I was part of kind of the same system.
46:39It was a passive-aggressive cult, though.
46:42It wasn't the, you know, same thing.
46:46You could come and go as you please.
46:50There's passive shunning if you ever left the Catholic Church,
46:55and, you know, you're going to get looked down on.
46:58But they're not going to disown you or anything like that.
47:03The key thing we had in common, though, I was following a pope, and he was following his version of a pope instead of Jesus Christ.
47:15So, that's where I would probably have steered him and say, why aren't you directing me straight to Jesus, the way the apostles did in Scripture?
47:27You know, don't follow me.
47:28Don't follow Apollos or Paul.
47:30Follow Jesus Christ.
47:33You know, why aren't you doing that?
47:35I would have asked him that.
47:36Well, that's good advice.
47:38You know, like I said, deep inside, I think when people are recruited, they have to know inwardly something's wrong.
47:44They have this feeling something's wrong.
47:46And people who are in it, you know, time to time you get that feeling something is wrong.
47:51Something just isn't right.
47:52And it all comes down to what you just said.
47:54You're giving too much authority to a human being.
47:58And if God sent the Holy Spirit, according to the Bible, and this person is basically usurping the authority of the Holy Spirit, can it even be called Christianity?
48:08I'm making no excuses for myself.
48:10That was a long time ago.
48:12But it's just, you know, my priorities weren't the same as they are now.
48:18I was, you know, you know, you had girls and baseball and school and your faith came way down on the bottom of the list.
48:29So, you know, but that is a good question.
48:33If I could, and if I could have talked to him in the last 20 years or 15 years since I became a Christian, I would have pointed that out to him.
48:44I would have said, you know, Vance, what's the deal?
48:48And, you know, this whole serpent seed, where'd you get that from?
48:52Exactly.
48:53You know, I was raised in this serpent seed nonsense.
48:56From birth, I was taught this was one of the divine mysteries of God, to know that there were two bloodlines of people, an evil people and a good people.
49:04And that I could not tell them apart other than, if you're part of our cult, you're of the good people.
49:10That's all I knew growing up.
49:12And it's just, it's so problematic.
49:14I was shocked when I left the cult and I discovered passages from the Bible, such as, I think it's in the book of Acts.
49:21It says, God has made all nations, all peoples from one blood.
49:25So how do you reconcile that?
49:27You come across that passage and you read that, no, there's only one blood.
49:30There's not a serpent seed.
49:32And you read other passages, for God so loved the whole world.
49:36It doesn't say, for God so loved the whole world that has the good blood.
49:40But that's how we were taught, unfortunately.
49:43And it creates a very us versus them mentality, either in the cult or you're not.
49:48You're either of the good bloodline or you're not.
49:52And it's sad when you think about it because of all of the friendships that you could have, all of the people that you could enjoy being around and not thinking that they're of this magical serpent seed.
50:04But I grew up like this.
50:06I grew up questioning which people have it, which people don't.
50:09How do I know?
50:10How can I tell?
50:12And then to hear your story is fascinating because you're on the other side of this and you're watching the people shift.
50:18You're watching the facial shift that happens.
50:21So you can see this change happening.
50:23And it's scary to think that a cult leader has the power to do what they're doing, that somebody can actually radicalize a person and make that shift.
50:34This is something that they make.
50:36Stephen King makes money writing books on this, how that shift happens and the change whenever they become possessed.
50:42Well, you're watching it in real life and then learning that this is a real thing.
50:46This mind control is real.
50:48It's fascinating and scary all at the same time.
50:52And then to think that people like Belter who have been radicalized can go to the extremes that they do, that's even scarier.
51:00Because now on the outside looking in, I'm no longer in this cult, I began to wonder, well, how many people are radicalized?
51:07How many people are in a cult?
51:09You don't know from day to day.
51:11And it's like the opposite problem of the serpent seed.
51:14You're wondering which people are assimilated by the cult or not.
51:17And in the end, what it comes down to is if there is a true serpent seed, it's that these cults are that.
51:25But again, God has made everything off of one blood according to the Bible.
51:30So anyway, this was fascinating.
51:32It's not what we usually do.
51:33But I really wanted to hear the perspective of somebody who is on the outside looking in and watching that shift.
51:40And when I heard that you had that conversation with Dr. Hasson, I wanted to have the same conversation with you and talk a bit more.
51:47So thank you so much for doing this.
51:49Okay, thank you.
51:50Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
51:54You can find us at william-branham.org.
51:57For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
52:04Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
52:20For more information, you can find us at william-branham.
52:50Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
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