''Crown Court'' - There Was an Old Woman (1984) P1-P3 HD/Michael Jayston, Gwen Watford, S. Shaw - video Dailymotion

Very British

(3 parts, HD)  Alice Atha died at 73. A post mortem examination revealed signs of emaciation and tuberculous meningitis. Her daughter Grace Barber and son-in-law Harry Barber are accused of her manslaughter through neglect. They allege that the couple were indifferent to her welfare, leading to her starvation which triggered the meningitis for which they failed to seek medical help. The Barbers deny the charges. The Defence case is that she chose not to eat despite their best efforts and that - while lethargic and weak - she did not display signs of significant illness before her death.   Starring Michael Jayston, Gwen Watford, David Daker, Rachel Herbert, Rosemary Martin, Sebastian Shaw, John Tallents, Raad Ravi. Directed by Sarah Harding.

Transcript

00:00:00the case you're about to see is fiction but the procedure is legally accurate the

00:00:18characters are played by actors but the jury is selected from members of the

00:00:22general public my lord and members of the jury the accused Harold and Grace Barber are charged

00:00:31with a manslaughter by neglect of mrs. Barber's mother mrs. Alice Ather at the new in public house

00:00:37in Lampsford on the 1st of October last year three months after she'd moved into the care of the

00:00:43defendants mrs. Ather aged 73 was discovered dead in an upstairs bedroom she was in a starved and

00:00:50emaciated state and had died from tuberculosis of the meninges which are the membranes around the

00:00:57brain are you Dr. Roger Cordery and is your practice at 5 Megs Lane Fulchester that's right

00:01:03how long have you been in general medical practice please 12 years oh may Dr. Cordery refer to his

00:01:09notes my lord did you attend mrs. Alice Ather the deceased yes from the 5th of January last year

00:01:16she was staying with her daughter mrs. Shepherd I'm GP to both of them she had mild arthritis in

00:01:22the ankle and knee joints I prescribed indescent to be taken three times a day it's a pain-killing

00:01:27drug which comes in capsule form I also recommended that mrs. Ather be placed on a high calorie high

00:01:33protein diet could she walk unaided oh yes degree of arthritis wasn't that great well thereafter how

00:01:39often did you see mrs. Ather once a month for a repeat prescription and generally to see how she was

00:01:44feeling the pain certainly eased I kept her on indescent did you visit her at home yes she took

00:01:51to staying in bed more she was an old lady who liked to pretend she was worse than she was in order to

00:01:57receive attention I gathered that her daughter did a lot of running around for her how did you know

00:02:02this from talking to her daughter mrs. Shepherd old mrs. Ather would frequently tell me that she was

00:02:07incapable of getting out of bed and walking some elderly people do like to play on their illnesses to get

00:02:13attention what was her state of mind like it tended to wander she wasn't senile did you form an

00:02:19opinion as to whether she was eating or not yes I got the impression she wasn't eating properly she

00:02:25liked cakes and biscuits bread and butter chocolates things like that old ladies quite often don't know

00:02:32what's good for them hence the diet I recommended was mrs. Ather's future care ever discussed yes mrs.

00:02:38Shepherd spoke to me about putting her in a home she asked your advice yes but mrs. Ather refused to go in

00:02:44fact on a few occasions when I spoke to mrs. Ather she was very upset by the thought in the end there

00:02:49was very little advice I could give it was more of a domestic problem than a medical one when did you

00:02:55last see mrs. Ather as a patient on the 28th of June was her health reasonable there was little sign of any

00:03:02deterioration except that she was staying in bed far more what would her weight have been at that time

00:03:09I'd have to guess I'd say between eight and nine stone which was healthy why did you cease

00:03:15attending to her because she left the district mrs. Shepherd told me that she'd moved away to live

00:03:20with her other daughter in Lampsford thank you Dr. Cordray Dr. Cordray how would you describe mrs.

00:03:28Ather's build she was thin and this high calorie high protein diets that you put her on what was

00:03:36the purpose of that it was to build her up also I suggested the diet because her general health might

00:03:42have suffered through her inability to take proper exercise yes you say you were under the impression that

00:03:46her eating habits were poor yes yes did you feel that she was undernourished while living with mrs.

00:03:53Shepherd I suspected she was eating the wrong things I simply put her on a more beneficial diet

00:03:58well what happens normally when one eats the wrong things over a prolonged period one

00:04:04one simply doesn't get enough proper nourishment that is so

00:04:08yes did you ever examine mrs. Ather fully I gave her a check-up her blood pressure seemed a little

00:04:17low but on the whole she seemed fit her heart was very sad did she appear to have been an active

00:04:23person yes she'd enjoyed old time dancing in the past I got the impression from mrs. Ather that she'd

00:04:30led quite an active life up until the death of her husband and before the onset of the arthritis

00:04:34she'd always enjoyed going shopping on her own that sort of thing was she depressed I think she

00:04:40could have been you think she could have been yes I suggest you Dr. Cordray that an old lady who

00:04:48has been active and who obviously enjoys activity who suddenly finds herself afflicted with arthritic pain

00:04:54and who hears suggestions that her daughter is thinking of putting her in a home I suggest to you that

00:04:59that that old that old lady might become very depressed indeed I would agree I also suggest

00:05:04that that is why she spent more and more time in her bed because she was depressed that is possible

00:05:10would you say that mrs. Shepherd was under a strain looking after her mother yes and were you aware

00:05:16of mrs. Ather's other daughter mrs. Barber was anything ever said about her yes I knew there was another

00:05:22daughter from conversations with mrs. Shepherd I gathered that she was unwilling to take a share of

00:05:26looking after mrs. Ather and is that why mrs. Shepherd resorted to thinking of a home for her mother

00:05:31yes yes you say that you ceased attending to mrs. Ather because she moved out of the district that's

00:05:38right did mrs. Shepherd ever tell you the circumstances under which she got her sister

00:05:42to take care of her mother yes she said she'd driven her mother to her sister's and left her there

00:05:48that her sister was now responsible for her care and did you subsequently inquire about mrs. Ather's

00:05:53health no I didn't see mrs. Shepherd to inquire you just forgot about mrs. Ather she was no longer

00:06:01my patient are you dr. Stephen little yes and where is your practice please 15 the high street

00:06:08lampsford are you the gp to harold and grace barber the accused well I've attended mrs. Barber not mr.

00:06:14Barber they've only lived in the village a few months was this ever at the new inn where they live

00:06:19uh no at the surgery did mrs. Barber ever mention to you that she was looking after her mother she

00:06:24did did she ever mention the circumstances in which she'd taken responsibility for her mother my

00:06:28lord it has not yet been established that my client did willingly take responsibility miss miles your

00:06:34client permitted her mother to live at her address by so doing she assumed the burden of responsibility

00:06:42but not willingly my lord a learned counsel did not say willingly and if he had done it wouldn't make

00:06:51the slightest difference the way I see it I'll repeat my question did mrs. Barber ever mention the

00:06:58circumstances in which she'd taken responsibility for her mother she said her sister had dumped her on

00:07:03them dumped she said dumped those words did she ever ask you to attend mrs. Ather no she didn't did she

00:07:10ever discuss mrs. Ather's health with you no were you ever aware that mrs. Ather was an arthritic

00:07:16sufferer no moving to the events of the first of October last year can you please tell the court

00:07:22in your own words what occurred well I was telephoned just after eight o'clock in the morning by mr.

00:07:26Barber mrs. Barber had been in hospital for a week undergoing a hysterectomy he asked me to come

00:07:32down to the new inn and have a look at mrs. Ather he said that she wasn't breathing and he believed she

00:07:37could be dead so I called an ambulance and went immediately the room was small rather cold I

00:07:45thought mrs. Ather was in the bed I examined her and found that she was dead did you estimate how

00:07:51long she'd been dead some hours can you describe her to us yes I found her extremely emaciated

00:07:58almost wasted away her temples were sunken her face had a very gray appearance did you come to any

00:08:05conclusion as to the cause of death not immediately no it was difficult was anything said between you

00:08:11and mr. Barber well I asked him if mrs. Ather had been ill and he said that she hadn't been eating

00:08:16properly and had totally lost her appetite I asked him if any doctor had attended her recently he said

00:08:22no as a doctor did that surprise you yes it shocked me in fact I asked him why I hadn't been called in

00:08:29he said he hadn't thought it was necessary he'd been so busy running the pub and visiting his wife in

00:08:35hospital what possibilities did you consider as to the cause of death well at first I considered

00:08:40a wasting disease of which well there are a few and then well I thought poison might have been involved

00:08:48did you consider starvation I didn't know it's not the sort of thing one believes can happen

00:08:56except sometimes in cases of anorexia nervosa so I called the police what was mr. Barber's reaction to all

00:09:02this well he was upset by the old lady's death thank you dr. little

00:09:11dr. little did mrs. Barber ever express any anxiety as to her mother's health never but she told you

00:09:18quite openly that she was living there yes she made no secret of the fact at all that's right yes and she

00:09:26said that her sister mrs. shepherd had dumped her on them on herself mr. Barber that's what she told

00:09:31me did she tell you why her sister had dumped her on them i think she said her sister could no longer

00:09:37look after her did mrs. Barber tell you how old her mother was yes 73 and do you have many elderly patients

00:09:44about 150 and as a gp you're obviously well aware of the problems that beset the elderly of course did it

00:09:52never occur to you that an old lady in her 70s whom you knew to be difficult might be in need of

00:09:58some medical treatment a doctor does not go out looking for patients really my lord who is on trial

00:10:06here and i must correct my learner trent dr. little did not know mrs. ather was difficult to look after

00:10:11he'd been told that mrs. Barber's sister could no longer look after her yes you really mustn't put

00:10:17words into the witness's mouth miss miles i apologize for doing so my lord but carry on

00:10:24by all means did you ever ask mrs. Barber how her mother was i was never asked to attend to her so i

00:10:32assumed she was in good health but there had been no attempt to conceal the fact from you that she was

00:10:36living there none yes you say you didn't consider starvation to be the cause of death that you first

00:10:44considered a wasting disease that is so do you know the disease tuberculous meningitis well i know

00:10:49the disease i've never come across a case before and is it a wasting disease well not always but it

00:10:55can lead to emaciation how does emaciation follow from the disease i understand because it causes

00:11:01anorexia and the patient no longer eats anorexia yes the loss of appetite

00:11:12is your name rebecca shepherd yes you live at 15 park walk fullchester yes and are they accused

00:11:31your sister and brother-in-law yes what's your occupation please i'm a teacher at hill road

00:11:37primary school are you married divorced for how long did you look after your mother mrs alice ather

00:11:43two years did you invite your mother to come and live with you not exactly she she came after my

00:11:49father died did she have a house of her own yes in derby she sold it she nursed my father for many

00:11:55years he had parkinson's disease and she said that well she said the house had too many unhappy memories

00:12:02for her did you intend that she should stay with you permanently it was what she intended what were

00:12:08relations like between your mother and your sister mrs barbara at that time oh grace was always her

00:12:14favorite it was always grace this and grace that and i'd say to her why don't you go to grace if she's

00:12:20so wonderful why did mrs ather come to live with you and not with grace because i was living on my own

00:12:25and grace and harry were working as relief tenants and they were always moving around from pub to pub

00:12:31did mrs ather have her own room yes i gave her my spare bedroom uh upstairs now prior to the 5th

00:12:38of january last year did you ever have to take her to a doctor no but you say that she was fit and

00:12:42healthy around that time apart from arthritis yes dr cordry told us he recommended a high calorie

00:12:47high protein diet for your mother is that so yes that's right did he tell you what foodstuffs this

00:12:52should consist of steak beef fish milk cheese eggs did you comply with that diet yes how many meals did

00:13:00you give your mother a day to breakfast and dinner did she have a healthy appetite sometimes she had

00:13:05to be coaxed she's quite a light eater could mrs ather cook for herself yes and did she get herself

00:13:11things to eat yes uh until she started to stay in bed a bit more did looking after your mother become

00:13:19a strain yes it did can you tell us in what way because nothing that i ever did was good enough for

00:13:26her she complained about everything at the house the way i looked after even the way i dressed did

00:13:32she talk about grace during this period yes every day what did she say well she's she's cruel she'd

00:13:42say why wasn't i married she'd compare me with grace she'd say that grace would never complain about

00:13:46having to look after and grace was so wonderful did mrs barber ever visit her never never once in the

00:13:52two years she lived with you never once did she write or telephone never did you ever contact your

00:13:57sister speak to her yes quite a few times what was said between you i said it was time she took her

00:14:03share of looking after mum what was her response that she and harry never knew where they'd be what pub

00:14:09they'd be and it wasn't practical and that i was better placed you were still teaching i was can we now

00:14:16moved to the third of july last year what happened on that day i knew that grace harry grace and harry

00:14:22finally realized their ambition they got their own pub in lanceford and i put mother in the car with her

00:14:30possessions and i drove around there with what purpose leaving her there did you warn your sister and

00:14:36brother-in-law of your arrival no what were their reactions grace was furious she swore at me a good

00:14:41deal and harry was a bit more understanding i think he guessed the strain that had been under

00:14:46did you tell your sister and brother-in-law that mrs ather needed medication and that she was under

00:14:50the doctor yes did you take her current medication with you yes what did it consist of a bottle of

00:14:56capsules inducing was this the last time you ever saw your mother yes did you ever attempt to see

00:15:02your mother again once toward the end of august what occurred i went to the new inn the pub to see my

00:15:09mother i hadn't heard how she'd been getting on or anything and i felt a bit guilty i would have

00:15:18liked to apologize to her for the way that i treated him um harry was behind the bar and i don't know

00:15:26where grace was and he refused to let me see my mother did he give any reason he said mother never

00:15:33wanted to speak to me again after the way that i treated her what did you do then well asked where

00:15:40she was asked how she you know if she was all right and he said she's fine she didn't want to see you

00:15:46he repeated it and i said well just for a moment just to talk to her he refused to let me go upstairs

00:15:55did you ask if there was a doctor attending to your mother

00:15:57uh i don't remember was that the first and last time you attempted to see your mother yes what was

00:16:06the next thing you heard about her about a month later heard that she was dead thank you mrs shepherd

00:16:18mrs shepherd why did you look after your mother i saw it as my duty she nursed father for 20 years

00:16:27i felt i ordered her and this high calorie high protein diet that dr cordry recommended

00:16:34what did it replace and i'm sorry what do you mean well what was your mother's diet before dr

00:16:40cordry put her on this high calorie high protein one oh she ate all sorts of things what things please

00:16:46tell us she had a lot of cold things cold meats tomatoes britain butter and were you cooking your

00:16:53mother two proper meals a day at this time no so what was she actually doing then feeding herself

00:16:58she tended to to just eat as she wanted did you ever cook her a meal well she wouldn't eat what i

00:17:05cooked very often yes i suggest your mother was in the habit of eating in a certain way certain things

00:17:11that she liked and she was loath to lose that habit is that how it appeared to you yes yes so that for

00:17:18over a year and a half you were aware that your mother's eating habits were poor i didn't think

00:17:23about them you thought about them enough to talk to dr cordry about them i felt i had to after a year

00:17:28and seven months yes yes you said a few minutes ago that you regarded looking after your mother as a

00:17:35duty that you owed it to her do you consider that by allowing your mother to eat poorly you were looking

00:17:41after her i let her live with me i couldn't make her eat what she wouldn't eat so after dr cordry's

00:17:49visit you began giving her two proper meals a day yes yes what time did you give her breakfast

00:17:55quarter to nine yes and what time do you start teaching what time in the morning nine o'clock and

00:18:00what time do you leave the house about quarter to nine i suggest therefore that you never actually

00:18:09had time to sit down and watch your mother eat breakfast i i know that she ate it how do you know

00:18:14she ate it well she told me she told you so but how do you know that she ate it when i came home the

00:18:19dishes were downstairs and washed up your mother was capable of coming downstairs with her breakfast

00:18:23dishes and washing them up yes and she told you that she'd eaten her breakfast yes and you believed her

00:18:28yes even though previously it had been hard almost impossible to make your mother eat what was good

00:18:33for her well she knew that she had to i'm sorry she knew that she had to eat properly you said you

00:18:40made sure your mother ate two proper meals a day i did but one of them you never actually saw her eat

00:18:47i'm not sure what you're suggesting i'm simply suggesting that considering what you've told us

00:18:52about your mother's eating habits it's very likely that she might not have eaten the breakfast that you

00:18:57prepared for her i'm sure she did did you ever suspect that she might not be well yes once or

00:19:02twice maybe can you be more precise i used to check in the dustbin just in case you used to check in the

00:19:10dustbin did you ever find any evidence that your mother had thrown anything away no but your suspicions

00:19:19were aroused i knew what she was like quite that is exactly the point that i've been trying to establish

00:19:24you knew what she was like where was the toilet upstairs next to her room yes and presumably she

00:19:29was also capable of going there oh yes right let's talk about dinner did you take dinner together yes

00:19:41and was this in the evening when you came home from school yes did she always eat everything yes

00:19:46yes yet prior to dr cauldry's visit and his recommendation of this high calorie high protein

00:19:54diet when you cooked your mother a meal she would not eat it that is what you've told us that's right

00:20:00by what means did you suddenly succeed in making your mother eat i persuaded her to i suggest that it

00:20:06was a very dramatic change in your mother's eating habits it was yes for over a year and a half she would

00:20:12not eat what you cooked her now suddenly here she is eating properly and fully yes did she like the

00:20:18food that you cooked for her no and yet she added yes you said under examination nothing i ever did

00:20:23was good enough for her she complained about everything did that include the food that you

00:20:27cooked for her yes she complained about the food you cooked for her she didn't like the food that you

00:20:32cooked for her you suspected she wasn't eating the breakfast that you prepared for her and yet you

00:20:36continued undaunted to prepare your mother two proper meals a day is that true or not true it's true

00:20:53i suggest that it is not true

00:21:00i put up with it for two years isn't that enough

00:21:02was there a significant change in your mother's diet or did it remain much the same in spite of

00:21:09your valiant efforts

00:21:13you are under oath mrs shepherd

00:21:18it's much the same and did you continue to prepare your mother two proper meals a day or was it a task

00:21:24that you set yourself with the very finest intentions a task which you quickly realized was hopeless because

00:21:30of your mother's ways what you said i beg your pardon i tried to do it i really tried it was her that

00:21:39starved her not us she was as thin as a bloody rake will the defendant please be silent

00:21:56the case of the queen and barber and barber will be resumed tomorrow in the crown court

00:22:11the case

00:22:15the case

00:22:17the case

00:22:19the case

00:22:37the case you're about to see is fiction but the procedure is legally accurate the characters are

00:22:45played by actors but the jury is selected from members of the public yesterday the jury heard

00:22:50the first stages of the prosecution case against Harold and Grace Barber who were accused of

00:22:54manslaughter of mrs. Barber's mother by neglect are you professor Thornton Mason pathologist at

00:23:03the Edward Mansfield Memorial Hospital I am on the third of October last year were you asked to

00:23:08perform a post-mortem examination on the body of mrs. Alice Ather yes let me first ask you about

00:23:14the height of the deceased her height was five foot seven inches what would be the normal weight

00:23:19for a woman of that height I'd say eight and a half stone working on average desirable weights

00:23:25what did she weigh her weight was five stone eight pounds the difference in body weight being two

00:23:31stone 13 pounds yes virtually three stone what was the reason for the weight loss the reason for the

00:23:36weight loss was lack of food starvation some dehydration what state was her body it was very

00:23:42thin waisted very emaciated there were bed sores and staining from urine and feces the eyes were

00:23:52rather sunken suggesting some dehydration the hair was rather matted I found no food in the stomach or

00:23:58the intestines on examining her left lung I found an old tubercular lesion which had been reactivated

00:24:06the deceased must have had tuberculosis as a younger woman and recovered from it when you say reactivated

00:24:13what do you mean it affected the meninges were inflamed the disease tuberculosis meningitis I'd say she'd

00:24:24had it for about three weeks what did you conclude was the cause of death I concluded the death was due

00:24:29to tuberculosis meningitis not to starvation well proving death by starvation is really a matter of

00:24:34excluding positive evidence of death from other causes can you say for how long she'd been starved of

00:24:39food I'm afraid I can't I examined the bowel and found no food particles none whatsoever this only

00:24:46led me to the conclusion that she had not eaten recently within days of death however due to the

00:24:51state of extreme emaciation I'd say some weeks I can't be exact is tuberculosis meningitis a wasting

00:24:58disease in an untreated case there will be a loss of appetite difficulty in swallowing to the extent the

00:25:04victim would waste yes simply because of not eating are you saying that some of the starvation could

00:25:09have been due to the disease some undoubtedly was can you say how much starvation was due to the disease

00:25:15no I'm afraid I can't but all of the emaciation was due to starvation yes do you regard the loss of

00:25:21three stone as a dangerous loss in mrs. Athens case yes when you first saw her body was it apparent to

00:25:28you that she was dangerously underweight was apparent to me that she was dead I'm sorry was it apparent to

00:25:34you that just prior to death she would have looked dangerously underweight yes let me return to the

00:25:40tubercular lesion in the lung what in your opinion was the cause of it being reactivated in my opinion

00:25:45it was because she wasn't in feeble state when the body is run down the immunity defenses obviously

00:25:51it collapsed if she was in a starved state would that reactivate the tuberculosis uh yes and would

00:25:58that lead to the tuberculosis spreading to the meninges eventually yes how long would it normally

00:26:02take for the disease to prove fatal if untreated it would kill in three to four weeks and so you

00:26:08maintain it killed mrs. Arthur in three well about three maybe a few days longer I can't be exact what

00:26:15are the clinical features of tuberculous meningitis in the early stages there'd be a general loss of

00:26:19appetite general malaise mild headaches the person would feel drowsy be confused perhaps irritable

00:26:26in the later stages the headache will become more severe there'd be a stiffening of the neck

00:26:31creasing confusion tremulousness loss of muscle control difficulty in swallowing double vision

00:26:40perhaps with the eye showing a squint cranial neck pauses and finally a paralysis of an arm or leg

00:26:46followed by a coma is it a disease one could ignore I would say not and in the final stages

00:26:53I'd expect the breathing to be very erratic stertorous thank you professor Mason

00:26:57professor Mason you say that mrs. Arthur weighed two stones thirteen pounds less than the desirable

00:27:08weight for a woman of her height and build yes yes you see I don't want the jury to be confused you're

00:27:14not saying that mrs. Arthur actually lost nearly three stones in weight you're simply stating that she

00:27:20she was two stones thirteen pounds less than she should have been if she was healthy that's right

00:27:25obviously I have no way of telling how much she weighed before no obviously what actually happens

00:27:33when one stops eating the metabolism well it's rather a complicated process the fat becomes the

00:27:40major fuel of the body the body in fact actually begins eating its own fat was it not possible for you

00:27:48to work out the length of time that mrs. Arthur had starved from the amount of fat that she had used

00:27:52up no I had no way of telling the rate she used up and also there may have been food taken during the

00:27:57period of starvation one really can't tell did she still have fact to use up she had fat deposits to

00:28:02use up yes so she was still a long way from dying of starvation I wouldn't expect her to die of

00:28:08starvation it's very unusual to simply die of starvation especially in the case of an elderly person

00:28:13the state of impoverishment makes the body prone to other conditions which act faster

00:28:19a loss of muscle another person might make them vulnerable to a pre-existing heart disease for

00:28:24example so you see starvation very rarely actually kills starvation is the trigger in this case it

00:28:31triggered the lesion in the lung which led to the meningitis is it not so that after a few days of not

00:28:38eating one loses one's appetite yes and that this condition is in fact called anorexia that is

00:28:45correct and did you not say that anorexia was a feature of tuberculous meningitis it is is there

00:28:51any confusion with anorexia nervosa none my lord that is a psychological disease involving the inability to

00:28:59eat it mainly affects teenage girls I just wanted to make sure there was no confusion I wasn't aware

00:29:08that I had created any my lord at what stage of the disease did you say that anorexia became a

00:29:15feature almost at the outset and you say that mrs. ather had starved for some weeks could she have

00:29:22starved for only three weeks I would say it was more probable she starved for a longer period of time

00:29:28three stone and waited a lot to lose in three weeks but could she have lost it in three weeks

00:29:33if starvation in that three week period was acute if no food was taken at all well depend on so many

00:29:39things doubt beforehand amount of fat metabolic rate it would depend a lot on how much water was

00:29:47drunk during the period why is that well a body fluid accounts for a very high proportion of the

00:29:52weight loss if very little water was drunk during the period of starvation the weight loss would be

00:29:57far greater than if a lot of water was drunk but did you not say that mrs. ather was dehydrated there

00:30:02some dehydration yes can you say how much no I'm afraid I can't just a lack of body fluid are you

00:30:08saying then that if mrs. ather drank very little during the starvation period she could have lost

00:30:14three stones in three weeks it would still be unlikely but possible possible I uh I can't be

00:30:22categorical now three weeks is also the time that you said she had the disease tuberculous meningitis yes

00:30:28if anorexia is an initial feature of that disease I suggest she could have lost all three

00:30:34stones during the disease but I already said it was because she was in an impoverished state that

00:30:39the lesion in the lung was reactivated no you've already said that it was because she was in a

00:30:44starved state that the lesion in the lung was reactivated I don't know what state mrs. ather was

00:30:48in when the lesion was reactivated then why did you say that starvation led I did only say the

00:30:52starvation was a possibility no with respect you said starvation is the trigger in this case it

00:30:58triggered the tubercular lesion in the lung starvation is a possibility I made that clear earlier

00:31:02you see you said it's a bit of a medical puzzle here we've been led to believe that because mrs. ather

00:31:11was starved the lesion in the lung was reactivated and the disease spread yet an early feature of that

00:31:18disease is loss of appetite which in itself would lead to starvation and emaciation I think there

00:31:24was some deprivation of food some deficiency of diet enough to impoverish the body prior to the

00:31:29reactivation of the lesion then considerable starvation as a consequence of the disease but

00:31:34the total amount of weight loss can be totally accounted for by the disease it is only a possibility

00:31:40yes at the moment we do not know which came first the disease or the starvation it's rather

00:31:45like the chicken and the egg I wouldn't put it quite so simply might a mere deficiency of diet

00:31:52have weakened the body enough to allow the lesion to reactivate might have

00:31:59long way from starvation could the lesion in the lung have reactivated some time

00:32:09before the disease spread to the meninges it could have some months before possibly would

00:32:15there necessarily be chest symptoms coughing not necessarily even though the lesion had reactivated

00:32:21it could lie quietly without giving any chest symptoms so one would not know about it until

00:32:27the disease had spread that is correct so what we are saying is that tuberculosis may have appeared

00:32:33before mrs ather ever went to live with the defendants

00:32:37you say that the early symptoms of tuberculosis meningitis are mild headaches general malaise drowsiness confusion irritability

00:32:56yes would they be strong enough feature to cause alarm or might they not be dismissed as the normal pattern of growing old

00:33:04in an otherwise healthy person they would be a strong enough feature to cause alarm

00:33:07what about an old person who was already drowsy confused and irritable

00:33:12in tuberculosis meningitis I would expect increasing confusion

00:33:15I think it would be alarming in any event

00:33:18you say there would be a stiffness of the neck

00:33:21yes in the latter stages there will be a number of neurological manifestations

00:33:26and what causes them

00:33:27the inflamed meninges begin to strangle the cranial nerves which pass through them

00:33:31a number of nerves were involved

00:33:33yes this horror story of symptoms that you've given us I can only describe them as that

00:33:39is no more than a list of the neurological manifestations you would expect following the involvement of the nerves

00:33:46yes yes double vision a squint tremulousness loss of muscle control difficulty in swallowing neck pauses

00:33:52they are all neurological they are

00:33:54yes what usually is the ultimate fate of a nerve that is strangled in this way

00:34:00the nerve is destroyed ultimately

00:34:03were any of the nerves destroyed

00:34:05no but many were involved

00:34:07involved in being strangled but not destroyed

00:34:09that is so

00:34:10was the spinal cord involved

00:34:13the inflammation had involved it yes

00:34:15but was it damaged to the extent that you can definitely say

00:34:18mrs. Arthur would have experienced paralysis of an arm or a leg

00:34:22I cannot definitely say

00:34:23but I think some paralysis was very likely

00:34:26is it not so that when a nerve is damaged but not destroyed

00:34:30it is very difficult to assess the extent of that damage

00:34:33unless the patient is alive to testify

00:34:35yes

00:34:36so we do not know for certain therefore

00:34:39to what extent mrs. Arthur demonstrated those manifestations

00:34:42they are the clinical features of the disease

00:34:45the clinical features of the later stages of the disease

00:34:48am I right

00:34:49yes

00:34:51finally you say that it would lead to coma and difficulty in breathing

00:34:56now breathing in coma would be light

00:34:58wouldn't it

00:34:58the difficulty would still be noticeable

00:35:00perhaps not so if that coma were mistaken for sleep

00:35:03well she would look extremely ill

00:35:05one could not possibly wake her up

00:35:08no I cannot say it will be mistaken for sleep

00:35:11provided one attempted to wake her up

00:35:14thank you professor Mason

00:35:16professor given the condition of mrs. Arthur

00:35:20the muscle wastage

00:35:22the emaciation

00:35:22the extent of the disease

00:35:24can you give us some indication

00:35:25as to what period of time before death

00:35:27she would have been incapable of walking on her own

00:35:30it would be an opinion

00:35:32I think it would be of some value

00:35:35I don't imagine she will be able to walk unaided

00:35:39during the last two weeks of her life

00:35:41she would have been totally bedridden

00:35:43totally

00:35:44thank you professor Mason

00:35:47that my lord concludes the case for the prosecution

00:35:51is your name grace barber

00:35:55it is

00:35:57and with your husband harold

00:35:59do you both own and live

00:36:01at the new inn high street lambsford

00:36:02we do

00:36:03for how long have you resided at the new inn

00:36:07since the 24th of may last year

00:36:09what have you been doing for some years before that

00:36:13well harry and me

00:36:15we've been working as relief tenants for four years

00:36:18you know just moving from pub to pub

00:36:21and before that we were the tenants of the bell in fullchester

00:36:24and during this period of moving about

00:36:27were you ever in contact with your sister mrs shepherd

00:36:30as regards your mother's welfare

00:36:32yes

00:36:33rebecca used to ring me up

00:36:35say it was time we took our share of looking after mum

00:36:38but we couldn't because we were moving around so much

00:36:42now on the 3rd of july last year

00:36:45what happened

00:36:46well

00:36:47rebecca brought mum round to us

00:36:50without any warning

00:36:51she said she'd had enough of looking after her

00:36:54and it was our turn

00:36:55well i was furious with her

00:36:57i mean just dumping mum on us like that

00:36:59without any warning

00:37:00and she looked so thin

00:37:02almost

00:37:03well skinny

00:37:04when was the last time you had seen her

00:37:06when dad died

00:37:08two years before

00:37:09and would you say that there was a great difference in her appearance

00:37:12oh i'll say

00:37:13she looked as though she hadn't been fed

00:37:15was she able to walk on her own

00:37:18well with a stick

00:37:19did your sister mrs shepherd say anything about your mother's medication

00:37:24no she didn't

00:37:26did she tell you that your mother had been regularly attended to by a doctor because of her arthritis

00:37:31no

00:37:32and did she leave any medication with you

00:37:34no she didn't

00:37:36after she left what transpired between yourself your husband and your mother mrs ather

00:37:43well i didn't want to take the responsibility for her

00:37:47but harry he talked me round he said well now we owned our own place we owed her something

00:37:52so we gave her a bedroom upstairs at the back of the inn

00:37:55yes and was there a toilet and bathroom on the upstairs floor

00:37:58yes next door to her room

00:38:00did your mother say why she had difficulty in walking

00:38:04yes she said she had a lot of pain

00:38:06in her knees and in her ankles

00:38:08did she describe what sort of pain

00:38:10she said it was an arthritic pain

00:38:11now did she tell you that she had been seeing a doctor

00:38:14oh yes but she said he hadn't done her any good

00:38:17and did she say anything else as regards to the doctor

00:38:20yes

00:38:21she said she hadn't liked him

00:38:23because he'd spoken about putting her in a home

00:38:25did you have a gp of your own at this time

00:38:29well no because we'd only just moved into the village and we hadn't needed one

00:38:33and did you consider fetching a doctor to your mother

00:38:35well no i mean it didn't seem necessary

00:38:39and anyway she said she didn't trust doctors

00:38:41and i was able to relieve the pain

00:38:44how were you able to do that

00:38:46well i used heat treatment

00:38:48i've got a sunray lamp

00:38:50and it's got an infrared setting

00:38:51and i used to use that on her legs

00:38:54how often

00:38:54oh well every day for about half an hour

00:38:57and then i also put hot water bottles against her joints

00:39:01and how did that help your mother

00:39:02well she said it helped to relieve the pain a lot

00:39:05did she stay in bed much

00:39:07well she stayed in bed all the time

00:39:09except to go to the toilet

00:39:11she never came downstairs

00:39:12never

00:39:13was she able to come downstairs on her own

00:39:16oh yes she was perfectly able

00:39:18she just didn't want to

00:39:19did you ever encourage her to come downstairs

00:39:22yes

00:39:23but there was only the bar you see

00:39:25and she never did approve of drinking

00:39:27yes now let me ask you about the drinking

00:39:29did your mother have water in her room

00:39:32well we supplied her with a jug and a glass

00:39:35and did she drink a lot of water

00:39:37no very little

00:39:37how often did you have to refill that jug

00:39:41well i changed the water in it every day

00:39:44even though she'd hardly touched it

00:39:45what was your mother's mood

00:39:48after she came to live with you

00:39:49she was very depressed

00:39:51did she talk about your sister at all

00:39:54yeah

00:39:54she said she never wanted to see rebecca again

00:39:57after the way she'd treated her

00:39:58did your mother have any interests

00:40:00did she read at all

00:40:02no she didn't read

00:40:03did she have a television in her room

00:40:05no

00:40:05and what about a radio

00:40:06well we offered her one

00:40:07but she said she didn't want one

00:40:08so what did she do all day

00:40:10well nothing

00:40:11she just lay there

00:40:12and it was around this time

00:40:14that she expressed a disinterest

00:40:16in leaving her room

00:40:17except to go to the toilet

00:40:18yes

00:40:19was she capable of washing herself

00:40:22oh she was perfectly capable

00:40:24but she got very lazy about it

00:40:26when she refused to get up to wash

00:40:29i always made sure she had a bed bath all over

00:40:31which you gave her

00:40:32oh yes

00:40:33yes

00:40:34what were the arrangements for feeding her

00:40:37well she wouldn't have much for breakfast

00:40:40just a cup of tea and a piece of toast

00:40:41and then

00:40:42well we started off by giving her two meals a day

00:40:45but she just wasn't eating

00:40:46so we made it one at lunchtime

00:40:48and we thought that

00:40:50well as she was lying in bed all day doing nothing

00:40:52she didn't really need two meals a day

00:40:55and did she always eat what you prepared for her

00:40:58well no that was the thing you see

00:40:59I mean

00:40:59we always made sure that she had it

00:41:02but sometimes she just wasn't hungry

00:41:03I mean a whole day would go by

00:41:05and she'd eat nothing

00:41:06and didn't that alarm you

00:41:08no

00:41:09I mean

00:41:10if she wasn't hungry

00:41:11didn't see much point in making her eat

00:41:14did you ever sit down with her

00:41:16and coax her to eat

00:41:17no

00:41:18when she did eat

00:41:20what were the circumstances

00:41:21well one of us used to take it up to her

00:41:24leave it with her

00:41:26and then she'd eat it on her own

00:41:28could you be sure that she ate it

00:41:30well the plate was clean

00:41:32were you ever aware

00:41:33after taking her up a meal

00:41:35and leaving it with her

00:41:36that she got up on her own

00:41:38and went to the toilet

00:41:39well I've no idea

00:41:41I mean you can't hear a thing

00:41:43what's going up upstairs

00:41:44when you're downstairs in the bar

00:41:46did your mother ever complain

00:41:48about the food that you gave her

00:41:50oh yes she was always complaining

00:41:52would you describe her as irritable

00:41:54yes very

00:41:55how did this affect the relationship

00:41:57between your husband and your mother

00:41:59well it became very bad

00:42:02I mean I said really

00:42:03that she'd have to go into a home

00:42:05and did you take any action

00:42:07as regards finding a home for her

00:42:08well no because I didn't really know

00:42:11how to go about it

00:42:12around this time

00:42:14were you yourself seeing Dr. Little

00:42:16the GP in the village

00:42:17yes I had to go into hospital

00:42:20to have an operation

00:42:21can you tell us the nature

00:42:23of that operation

00:42:24hysterectomy

00:42:25what day was fixed

00:42:28for you to go into hospital

00:42:2925th of September

00:42:31and did you tell Dr. Little

00:42:32that you were caring

00:42:33for an elderly mother

00:42:34yes

00:42:35did you ever ask him

00:42:37to attend her

00:42:38no

00:42:39I didn't think it was necessary

00:42:41and I didn't want to waste his time

00:42:43and I mean mum didn't seem ill

00:42:45she just seemed old

00:42:47and bad tempered

00:42:49and were you continuing

00:42:50with the heat treatment

00:42:51at this time

00:42:51well I was still using

00:42:53the hot water bottles

00:42:53but I'd stop using the lamp

00:42:55did she complain of pain

00:42:57no

00:42:57was she ill looking

00:42:59no well she looked thin

00:43:01but then she always looked thin

00:43:03how was she eating

00:43:05by this time

00:43:05well much the same

00:43:08as before really

00:43:08I mean sometimes

00:43:10she wouldn't eat

00:43:11and sometimes

00:43:11you'd take up her food

00:43:13and then you'd go

00:43:14and pick the plate up

00:43:15and it was usually clean

00:43:16did she complain

00:43:17of anything else

00:43:18yes she did start

00:43:20to complain

00:43:20about having headaches

00:43:21and I used to give

00:43:22a discipline for those

00:43:24now when did she start

00:43:25having those headaches

00:43:26about two weeks

00:43:27before I went into hospital

00:43:28did you have any idea

00:43:31that your mother

00:43:32might be ill

00:43:32seriously ill

00:43:34none at all

00:43:36immediately prior

00:43:38to your going into hospital

00:43:39on the 25th of September

00:43:40was your mother

00:43:41still capable

00:43:42of getting out of bed

00:43:44on her own

00:43:45well she could get out

00:43:46of bed on her own

00:43:47but she had to be helped

00:43:48to the toilet

00:43:48she was weaker

00:43:49well we thought

00:43:51it was because

00:43:51she just lay in bed

00:43:52all day

00:43:53and on the 25th of September

00:43:56you went into hospital

00:43:57are you fully recovered

00:43:59from that operation

00:44:00yes thank you

00:44:02how often did Mr. Barber

00:44:04visit you in hospital

00:44:06oh twice a day

00:44:07mornings and afternoons

00:44:09and was your mother disgust

00:44:10yes he used to tell me

00:44:11how she was

00:44:12did he seem alarmed

00:44:14by her state of health

00:44:15no

00:44:15I think he was more

00:44:17worried about me

00:44:18and on the 1st of October

00:44:20did you hear

00:44:21that your mother

00:44:21had died

00:44:22yes

00:44:23Harry rang me up

00:44:25to tell me

00:44:26thank you Mrs. Barber

00:44:27Mrs. Barber

00:44:29you had not seen

00:44:30your mother

00:44:30for two years

00:44:31is that right

00:44:32yes that's right

00:44:33why was that

00:44:34well there was never

00:44:35any time

00:44:35what about Christmas

00:44:37birthdays

00:44:37did you never try

00:44:38to see her

00:44:39well no because

00:44:40we were always

00:44:40in some different pub

00:44:42I suggest you could

00:44:43not be bothered

00:44:43with your mother

00:44:44I suggest you were

00:44:45content to let your

00:44:46sister take all

00:44:46the responsibility

00:44:47I was content to

00:44:49yes

00:44:49because she had

00:44:50her we didn't

00:44:51and it was impossible

00:44:52for us to

00:44:53on the 3rd of July

00:44:54Mrs. Ather was brought

00:44:55to you by your sister

00:44:56who said she'd had

00:44:57enough of looking

00:44:58after her

00:44:58yes that's right

00:44:59and you stated

00:45:00that Mrs. Shepard

00:45:01said nothing about

00:45:02your mother having

00:45:03been on medication

00:45:03or having seen a doctor

00:45:05because of arthritis

00:45:05yes

00:45:06have you heard

00:45:07Mrs. Shepard give

00:45:08evidence under oath

00:45:09oh yes I heard her

00:45:10Mrs. Shepard has stated

00:45:11that she informed

00:45:12you of both these facts

00:45:13well she's a bloody liar

00:45:14did she leave a bottle

00:45:15of pills

00:45:16no

00:45:16you already know

00:45:18what a bloody liar

00:45:19she is

00:45:20would you mind

00:45:20your letter

00:45:21it was her

00:45:21that starved her

00:45:22not us

00:45:23she's already lied

00:45:24about that

00:45:25why shouldn't she

00:45:25lie about everything

00:45:26else

00:45:26Mrs. Barber

00:45:27I can't allow

00:45:29you to shout

00:45:30she's always been

00:45:34a liar

00:45:34I always took

00:45:37the blame

00:45:37for everything

00:45:38she did

00:45:38always

00:45:39the case of the Queen

00:45:59and Barber and Barber

00:46:00will be concluded

00:46:01tomorrow

00:46:01in the Crown Court

00:46:03the case you're about to see

00:46:31is fiction

00:46:31but the procedure

00:46:32is legally accurate

00:46:33the characters are played

00:46:34by actors

00:46:35but the jury is selected

00:46:36from members of the public

00:46:37during the past two days

00:46:39the jury has heard evidence

00:46:40concerning the alleged

00:46:41manslaughter by neglect

00:46:43of Mrs. Alice Ather

00:46:44by her daughter

00:46:45and son-in-law

00:46:46the defendant

00:46:47Grace Barber

00:46:47is being cross-examined

00:46:49you say

00:46:51you say that

00:46:51when your mother

00:46:52came to live with you

00:46:52she looked thin

00:46:53almost skinny

00:46:55as though she hadn't

00:46:56been fed

00:46:56yes

00:46:57under your care

00:46:58did she appear

00:46:59to look any better

00:47:00no

00:47:02so she remained

00:47:03thin

00:47:04almost skinny

00:47:05as though she hadn't

00:47:05been fed

00:47:06well it was just

00:47:08the way she looked

00:47:09did she look ill

00:47:10not particularly

00:47:11you thought she looked

00:47:12well

00:47:13no

00:47:14then I suggest

00:47:15she must have

00:47:16looked ill

00:47:16well she didn't look

00:47:18well

00:47:18but she didn't look ill

00:47:19surely if she didn't

00:47:21look well

00:47:21she must have

00:47:21looked ill

00:47:22I don't see how

00:47:24if I said to you

00:47:25you do not look well

00:47:26what am I saying to you

00:47:27you're confusing me

00:47:30it is not I

00:47:31who's being confusing

00:47:32well

00:47:34she looked much the same

00:47:36so why did you not

00:47:37call a doctor

00:47:38tell Dr. Little

00:47:39I didn't think

00:47:40there was any need

00:47:41she looked unwell

00:47:42I think we've established that

00:47:44she had arthritic pain

00:47:45she spent nearly all day

00:47:46in bed

00:47:46sometimes not eating

00:47:47and you say there was

00:47:48no need to call a doctor

00:47:49well it didn't seem

00:47:50that serious

00:47:51what happens to someone

00:47:52who does not eat

00:47:53look

00:47:54she wasn't hungry

00:47:56it wasn't as though

00:47:58she couldn't eat

00:47:59like I said

00:48:01I mean she lay in bed

00:48:02all day

00:48:02doing nothing

00:48:03she didn't need much food

00:48:05she ate all she wanted

00:48:06what were the arrangements

00:48:07for collecting

00:48:08your mother's pension

00:48:09oh well

00:48:11I collect it

00:48:12I got mum to sign a letter

00:48:14what became of the money

00:48:14well put it in a bank

00:48:16you and Mr. Barber

00:48:18spoke about putting

00:48:19your mother in a home

00:48:20is that right

00:48:20yes

00:48:21and you say that the reason

00:48:23you did not pursue

00:48:24this course was because

00:48:25you did not know

00:48:26how to go about it

00:48:27yes

00:48:28are you aware

00:48:28that there are

00:48:29private nursing homes

00:48:30yes

00:48:31and were you aware

00:48:32that after selling

00:48:33her house in Derby

00:48:34your mother had a

00:48:34considerable sum

00:48:35in her bank account

00:48:36a sum exceeding

00:48:38£50,000

00:48:38which would have

00:48:39amply covered

00:48:40such expenses

00:48:41well we didn't

00:48:42think about it

00:48:43you didn't think

00:48:45about £50,000

00:48:46well not in that respect

00:48:47in what respect

00:48:48did you think about it

00:48:49I suggest to you

00:48:51Mrs. Barber

00:48:51that £50,000

00:48:52must have been

00:48:53a factor

00:48:54operating on your mind

00:48:55in some way

00:48:56I don't know

00:48:57what you mean

00:48:58my lord

00:48:58what is the relevance

00:48:59of my lonely friend's

00:49:00questions

00:49:01Mr. Saunders

00:49:03my lord

00:49:03I mention the £50,000

00:49:04because it is a factor

00:49:06which may have operated

00:49:07on the defendants' minds

00:49:08making them indifferent

00:49:10as to whether

00:49:11Mrs. Ather lived or not

00:49:12I've no objection

00:49:15to your exploring yet

00:49:16I put it to you

00:49:19Mrs. Barber

00:49:19that £50,000

00:49:20was a motive

00:49:21for not caring

00:49:22whether your mother

00:49:23lived or died

00:49:24I did care

00:49:25neither of us

00:49:27wanted her to die

00:49:28Mr. Barber

00:49:31on the 3rd of July

00:49:32we have heard

00:49:33Mrs. Ather was brought

00:49:35round to the new inn

00:49:36and left in the care

00:49:37of you and your wife

00:49:38yes by Rebecca

00:49:40my sister-in-law

00:49:40and what was

00:49:41your wife's reaction

00:49:43well she was furious

00:49:44she didn't want

00:49:45the responsibility

00:49:46of looking after

00:49:46the old woman

00:49:47she accused Rebecca

00:49:49of just dumping

00:49:50her on us

00:49:50and what did you

00:49:52say to your wife

00:49:52I told her

00:49:54I thought it was

00:49:54our turn to look

00:49:55after the old lady

00:49:56Rebecca had had her

00:49:56for two years

00:49:57now we had a pub

00:49:59of our own

00:49:59we had the facilities

00:50:00and did you

00:50:01persuade your wife

00:50:02that you should

00:50:03take joint responsibility

00:50:04for her mother

00:50:05yes

00:50:06even though

00:50:07she wasn't

00:50:08your own mother

00:50:08yes

00:50:09is your own mother

00:50:11still alive

00:50:12no she died

00:50:13four years ago

00:50:14and was she

00:50:15living with you

00:50:16no she was in

00:50:17hospital in a

00:50:18psychogeriatric ward

00:50:19did you ever

00:50:20look after her

00:50:21for any period

00:50:22yes I looked

00:50:23after her for

00:50:24three years

00:50:24before Grace

00:50:25and I got married

00:50:26now what condition

00:50:28was Mrs. Ather in

00:50:30when she came

00:50:30to live with you

00:50:31well she looked

00:50:32very thin

00:50:33almost bony

00:50:35did she look

00:50:37underfed to you

00:50:38well not particularly

00:50:39I just thought

00:50:40she looked thin

00:50:40are you aware

00:50:42that your wife

00:50:42considered her

00:50:43underfed looking

00:50:44oh I know

00:50:44she said underfed

00:50:45but to me

00:50:46she was just

00:50:47thin looking

00:50:47you thought

00:50:48it was a natural

00:50:49thinness

00:50:49well yes

00:50:50I mean she was

00:50:5173 after all

00:50:52and well

00:50:53she'd a thin build

00:50:54where did she

00:50:56spend most of her

00:50:57day

00:50:58upstairs in bed

00:50:59she spent all

00:51:00of it there

00:51:00except to get up

00:51:01and go to the

00:51:02toilet

00:51:02what was her

00:51:04mood generally

00:51:05I was pretty

00:51:06depressed

00:51:07and to what

00:51:08did you attribute

00:51:09that depression

00:51:10being dumped

00:51:12by Rebecca

00:51:12did she have

00:51:14a big appetite

00:51:15oh no

00:51:16very small

00:51:17quite often

00:51:18I'd take a meal

00:51:19up and she'd say

00:51:19Harry I'm just

00:51:20not hungry today

00:51:21well I tried

00:51:22to make her eat

00:51:23but you can't

00:51:25make somebody eat

00:51:26if they don't

00:51:26want to can you

00:51:27did you ever

00:51:28leave her with a meal

00:51:29yes quite often

00:51:31and did she eat

00:51:32it

00:51:33well sometimes

00:51:34she picked

00:51:34sometimes she

00:51:35ate the lot

00:51:35were you ever

00:51:37present when she

00:51:38ate the lot

00:51:38no

00:51:39no

00:51:39why not

00:51:40well we'd have

00:51:41pubed her on

00:51:41I mean why

00:51:43should we stay

00:51:43with her

00:51:43she was an adult

00:51:45capable of feeding

00:51:46herself

00:51:47not a child

00:51:47was there an

00:51:49occasion when

00:51:50Mrs Arthur accused

00:51:51you of something

00:51:52yes towards the

00:51:53end of July

00:51:53I took her up

00:51:55some chicken

00:51:55casserole

00:51:56it was what we

00:51:57were serving

00:51:57in the pub

00:51:58she looked at it

00:51:59and then she

00:52:00said what did

00:52:01I think I was

00:52:02trying to do

00:52:03poison her

00:52:03and then she

00:52:05threw it on the

00:52:05floor

00:52:05she didn't even

00:52:06taste it

00:52:07no no

00:52:07she just

00:52:08looked at it

00:52:09and then chucked

00:52:09it

00:52:10what else did

00:52:11she say

00:52:11well she suggested

00:52:14that we wanted

00:52:14her out of the

00:52:15way

00:52:15that it would

00:52:17serve us right

00:52:18if she starved

00:52:19herself to death

00:52:19had she ever

00:52:21behaved in this

00:52:22irrational way

00:52:23before

00:52:23no no not

00:52:24quite like that

00:52:25she'd be going

00:52:26a bit funny

00:52:26a bit morbid

00:52:27saying how nobody

00:52:28wanted her

00:52:29nobody cared

00:52:29whether she

00:52:30lived or died

00:52:30I mean she

00:52:31said that a few

00:52:31times

00:52:32did she ever

00:52:33say anything

00:52:34else funny

00:52:34she'd get

00:52:35confused

00:52:36say that nobody

00:52:38had been up to

00:52:38see her all day

00:52:39when one of us

00:52:40had been up there

00:52:40only half an hour

00:52:41before things like

00:52:42that

00:52:42well she'd forget

00:52:43where she was

00:52:44what time of day

00:52:45it was

00:52:45did you and your

00:52:46wife ever talk

00:52:47about putting her

00:52:48in a home

00:52:49we talked about it

00:52:51but I was against

00:52:52the idea

00:52:52why were you

00:52:54against the idea

00:52:54because I remember

00:52:56how horrible it was

00:52:57putting my own

00:52:57mother into a

00:52:58psychogeriatric ward

00:53:00and just because

00:53:02Mrs. Arthur was

00:53:03difficulty

00:53:03there wasn't any

00:53:05reason to stick her

00:53:06away

00:53:06did your wife

00:53:07express an opinion

00:53:08yes she felt the

00:53:10same as me

00:53:10and we neither of us

00:53:12really knew how to

00:53:13go about putting her

00:53:13in a home

00:53:14anyway it meant

00:53:15dumping the old lady

00:53:16and she'd been dumped

00:53:17once already

00:53:18I mean grace and me

00:53:19we just wanted the

00:53:20best for her

00:53:20a few days afterwards

00:53:22did you receive a visit

00:53:23from Rebecca

00:53:24Shepard

00:53:25your wife's sister

00:53:26yes

00:53:26she wanted to see

00:53:28her mother

00:53:28and where was your

00:53:30wife at the time

00:53:30she was at the

00:53:31doctor's

00:53:32Dr. Liddell's

00:53:32in the village

00:53:33did you allow

00:53:34Mrs. Shepard

00:53:35to see her mother

00:53:36no I didn't

00:53:37why not

00:53:38because her mother

00:53:39didn't want to see her

00:53:40she'd said so

00:53:41on many occasions

00:53:42she never wanted

00:53:43to see or speak

00:53:44to Rebecca again

00:53:44after what she'd done

00:53:45did you tell this

00:53:47to Mrs. Shepard

00:53:48yes

00:53:48she was very angry

00:53:50but I wouldn't

00:53:51let her go upstairs

00:53:52though she pleaded

00:53:53and did she then

00:53:55go away

00:53:56eventually

00:53:57yes

00:53:58now I want to

00:53:59bring you forward

00:54:00to the 25th of September

00:54:01the day your wife

00:54:02went into hospital

00:54:03was she worried

00:54:05about her operation

00:54:06oh very worried

00:54:06yes

00:54:07she'd never been

00:54:08in hospital before

00:54:09did it cause you

00:54:11any anxiety

00:54:12very much so

00:54:12did you have any

00:54:15bar staff

00:54:16or helpers

00:54:16at the new inn

00:54:17no none

00:54:18I was on my own

00:54:19completely

00:54:20and during this week

00:54:22when did you visit

00:54:22your wife

00:54:23every morning

00:54:24every afternoon

00:54:25for an hour each time

00:54:26while running the pub

00:54:28single-handed

00:54:29and visiting your wife

00:54:31in hospital

00:54:31were you also

00:54:32looking after

00:54:33Mrs. Arthur

00:54:33on your own

00:54:34I was

00:54:35how would you

00:54:37describe her condition

00:54:38during this week

00:54:39she was very sleepy

00:54:41she complained

00:54:43of headaches a lot

00:54:43I gave her

00:54:44discipline for them

00:54:45yes

00:54:46she had a jug of water

00:54:47is that so

00:54:48yes

00:54:48did she drink

00:54:50very much of it

00:54:51no

00:54:51hardly drank any

00:54:53just sips

00:54:54now and again

00:54:54and how did she look

00:54:56physically

00:54:56oh she didn't

00:54:58and bony like

00:54:58she always looked

00:54:59was she confused

00:55:01no more than usual

00:55:02during this week

00:55:05the final week

00:55:06of her life

00:55:07did she eat at all

00:55:08well I took her food

00:55:10but she didn't take

00:55:11she didn't touch

00:55:13very much of it

00:55:13and what do you mean

00:55:14by that

00:55:15well I took her

00:55:16up her lunch

00:55:16as usual

00:55:17left it

00:55:18when I came back

00:55:19it looked as though

00:55:21she'd eaten some of it

00:55:22though never very much

00:55:24and did that worry you at all

00:55:26well no

00:55:26I was more worried

00:55:27about my wife in hospital

00:55:28what about going to the toilet

00:55:31could she manage that

00:55:32on her own

00:55:33no I had to help her

00:55:34she was weak

00:55:35yes

00:55:36she was

00:55:36did you consider

00:55:38that she might be ill

00:55:39well I

00:55:41thought it was because

00:55:43she lay in bed so much

00:55:44I mean all day

00:55:45on the 30th of September

00:55:48Friday evening

00:55:49what did you observe

00:55:51about Mrs Arthur

00:55:52well she hadn't eaten

00:55:54that day at all

00:55:55she was very drowsy

00:55:57so I let her sleep

00:55:58the pub was busy

00:56:00I was on my feet

00:56:02all night

00:56:02but before I went to bed

00:56:05I looked in on her

00:56:06and she seemed to be asleep

00:56:09so I didn't disturb her

00:56:11did you go right

00:56:12into the room

00:56:13no I just stood in the doorway

00:56:15and spoke to her

00:56:15and what happened

00:56:17the next morning

00:56:18I got up

00:56:19and looked in on her

00:56:20with a cup of tea

00:56:21and I couldn't wake her

00:56:24she was cold

00:56:26not breathing

00:56:28I called Dr. Little

00:56:30and did he confirm

00:56:32that she was dead

00:56:33yes

00:56:33thank you Mr. Barber

00:56:36Mr. Barber

00:56:38on the 3rd of July

00:56:39you successfully persuaded

00:56:40your wife

00:56:41that the two of you

00:56:42ought to take your share

00:56:43of responsibility

00:56:44for looking after Mrs Arthur

00:56:45yes

00:56:46what do you understand

00:56:47by the phrase

00:56:48taking responsibility

00:56:49when it applies

00:56:50to the care of another person

00:56:51it means looking after them

00:56:53in what way

00:56:54in what way

00:56:55does it mean looking after them

00:56:56well making sure

00:56:57they're well

00:56:57I mean well fed

00:56:58does it mean

00:56:59in your understanding

00:57:00making sure

00:57:01there's a proper supply

00:57:02of the necessaries of life

00:57:03yes I suppose so

00:57:05you suppose

00:57:06well you put it better than me

00:57:08forget how I put it

00:57:10do you agree with the sentiment

00:57:12behind that definition

00:57:13yes

00:57:14very well

00:57:15let us keep it in mind

00:57:16you say she looked thin

00:57:19almost bony

00:57:20when she came to live with you

00:57:21what exactly do you mean

00:57:22by bony

00:57:22well she looked skinny

00:57:24do you mean so skinny

00:57:26that her bones were protruding

00:57:27yes

00:57:28but you did not think

00:57:29she looked underfed

00:57:30well I thought that

00:57:32she was underfed looking

00:57:33but I didn't actually think

00:57:34that she was underfed

00:57:35you regarded her

00:57:36as underfed looking

00:57:37but not underfed

00:57:38well it depends

00:57:39on how you say it

00:57:40I mean if you say

00:57:41that somebody is stupid looking

00:57:43it doesn't follow

00:57:44that they are in fact stupid

00:57:45does it

00:57:46did you consider

00:57:47that one meal a day

00:57:48was sufficient

00:57:49for an old person

00:57:49in that state

00:57:50well yes

00:57:51she wouldn't eat too

00:57:52like my wife said

00:57:52she spent all day in bed

00:57:53she never used up any energy

00:57:54did you consider

00:57:55that one meal in two days

00:57:56was sufficient

00:57:57no

00:57:58yet there were days

00:57:59when Mrs. Atherett

00:57:59nothing

00:58:00yes because she wasn't hungry

00:58:01then there must have been

00:58:02occasions when she had

00:58:03only one meal in two days

00:58:04would you agree

00:58:04look I never kept a record

00:58:06I had a pub to run downstairs

00:58:07she ate all she wanted

00:58:09I wasn't going to force food on her

00:58:10despite the fact

00:58:11she threatened to starve herself

00:58:12to death

00:58:13you cite this incident

00:58:24of the thrown food

00:58:25and the accusation

00:58:25that you were trying to poison her

00:58:26the threat that she would

00:58:27starve herself

00:58:28yes

00:58:29you say she accused you

00:58:30of not having been up to see her

00:58:31when in fact you had been up

00:58:32you say she'd forget

00:58:33where she was

00:58:34what time of day

00:58:34was am I correct

00:58:35yes

00:58:36did she have a clock

00:58:37or a watch in her room

00:58:37no

00:58:38she had no television

00:58:39or radio

00:58:40is that right

00:58:40no we offered her a radio

00:58:41but she didn't want it

00:58:42and she did not read

00:58:43no she wanted to read her

00:58:45not even newspapers

00:58:46or magazines

00:58:46no I think it was her eyes

00:58:48did it surprise you

00:58:49that she became confused

00:58:50no she was old

00:58:51she was old

00:58:52and that was the reason

00:58:53for her getting confused

00:58:54well old people

00:58:55do get confused

00:58:56don't they

00:58:56you told us

00:58:58that your own mother

00:58:59went into a hospital

00:58:59psychogeriatric ward

00:59:01or she attended to

00:59:02by a doctor

00:59:02while in your care

00:59:03yes

00:59:03did you send for the doctor

00:59:05yes

00:59:05what were your reasons

00:59:06my lord

00:59:07is this evidence necessary

00:59:09mr saunders

00:59:11my lord

00:59:12my learned friend

00:59:13used the evidence

00:59:14of the defendant's own mother

00:59:15no doubt as an indicator

00:59:16of good character

00:59:17i simply seek to use

00:59:19the same evidence

00:59:19to establish the defendant's

00:59:21previous experience

00:59:22in caring for an elderly person

00:59:23does that answer

00:59:25your question

00:59:26mr miles

00:59:26yes thank you my lord

00:59:27what were the reasons

00:59:29my mother behaved strangely

00:59:32in what way

00:59:33well she'd get up

00:59:34and go out

00:59:34in the middle of the night

00:59:35she brought a tramp home

00:59:36once to the house

00:59:37she'd talk about people

00:59:39in the house

00:59:39people who weren't there

00:59:40i can stop you there

00:59:41let me ask you this

00:59:41did not mrs ather's behavior

00:59:43alarm you in the same way

00:59:44no it wasn't so extreme

00:59:45well she threw her food

00:59:46on the floor

00:59:47accused you of trying

00:59:47to poison her

00:59:48threatened to starve herself

00:59:49that it was not extreme

00:59:50not as extreme

00:59:51that or the fact

00:59:52she was becoming weaker

00:59:52and having more difficulty

00:59:53in walking

00:59:54no no

00:59:55you weren't alarmed

00:59:55in the slightest

00:59:56well it's obvious

00:59:57i wasn't otherwise

00:59:58i'd have told somebody

00:59:59you truly believe

01:00:00that mrs ather

01:00:01upstairs in that room

01:00:03arthritic

01:00:03weakening

01:00:04frequently without appetite

01:00:06without medical attention

01:00:07was receiving a proper supply

01:00:09of the necessaries of life

01:00:10we did give her enough to eat

01:00:13but did you give enough care

01:00:14as to how much she ate

01:00:16i've already said

01:00:19she was an adult

01:00:20capable of feeding herself

01:00:21she knew how much she wanted

01:00:24i suggest to you

01:00:25that supplying the food

01:00:25was half the duty

01:00:26the other half was making sure

01:00:28she ate properly

01:00:28and if she did not

01:00:29getting medical attention for her

01:00:30it all depends on your definition

01:00:32of properly doesn't it

01:00:33were you aware

01:00:34of the large sum of money

01:00:35a sum exceeding 50,000 pounds

01:00:37which mrs ather possessed

01:00:38in her bank

01:00:38of course i was

01:00:39was that not a factor

01:00:40contributing to your indifference

01:00:42as to whether she lived or not

01:00:43we'd have to be monsters

01:00:45to do something like that

01:00:46and you've no right

01:00:46to suggest it

01:00:47she hadn't even made a will

01:00:50we never even thought

01:00:51of her making one

01:00:52in which case the money

01:00:52would have been divided equally

01:00:54between your wife

01:00:54and your sister-in-law

01:00:55a still considerable amount

01:00:56so what

01:00:57we never even thought about it

01:00:58when mrs shepherd

01:00:59your sister-in-law

01:01:00arrived and asked

01:01:01to see her mother

01:01:02you refused

01:01:02is that right

01:01:03that's right

01:01:04didn't you consider

01:01:05that mrs shepherd

01:01:05had a perfect right

01:01:06to see her mother

01:01:07after the way she treated her

01:01:08please just answer the question

01:01:10no i didn't think

01:01:10she had any

01:01:11what was your reason

01:01:12for refusing mrs shepherd permission

01:01:13her mother didn't want to see her

01:01:15didn't you go upstairs

01:01:16at the time and ask her

01:01:17no

01:01:17and how did you know

01:01:18because she'd said so before

01:01:20she never wanted to see rebecca again

01:01:22but wasn't she often

01:01:23in a confused state

01:01:24how do you know mrs ather

01:01:25meant what she said

01:01:26well from the way she said it

01:01:27am i right in saying

01:01:29that had mrs shepherd

01:01:30been allowed to go upstairs

01:01:31and see her mother

01:01:31she would have been

01:01:33the only other person

01:01:33to see her alive

01:01:34during her stay

01:01:35at the new inn

01:01:36yes

01:01:37i put this to you

01:01:38that you did not want

01:01:39mrs shepherd to go upstairs

01:01:40because you did not want

01:01:42her to see her mother's state

01:01:43i deny that strongly

01:01:45she was depressed you say

01:01:46didn't you feel

01:01:47she might benefit

01:01:48from a visit

01:01:48from her other daughter

01:01:49no i thought it might upset her

01:01:51you consider yourself

01:01:52the better judge

01:01:52in that instance yes

01:01:54during the last week

01:01:56of mrs ather's life

01:01:56your wife was in hospital

01:01:58leaving you in sole charge

01:01:59yes

01:02:00have you heard

01:02:00the medical evidence

01:02:01that by that time

01:02:03mrs ather was already

01:02:04in a starved state

01:02:05and suffering from a disease

01:02:07tuberculous meningitis

01:02:08the symptoms of which

01:02:09are headaches

01:02:10drowsiness

01:02:10confusion

01:02:11irritability

01:02:11leading to loss

01:02:12of muscle control

01:02:13paralysis

01:02:14and coma

01:02:14yes i've listened to it

01:02:16did you tell us

01:02:16you did not notice

01:02:17mrs ather was ill

01:02:18i didn't think

01:02:19she was ill enough

01:02:19to send for a doctor

01:02:20ill enough

01:02:21are you saying

01:02:21you noticed

01:02:22she was ill

01:02:22look

01:02:23my wife was in hospital

01:02:25i was running the pub

01:02:26are you saying

01:02:27you noticed

01:02:27she was ill

01:02:28she was very weak

01:02:29headaches

01:02:31so weak in fact

01:02:32you had to help

01:02:33her to the toilet

01:02:33yes

01:02:34yet you believed

01:02:35her strong enough

01:02:35to feed herself

01:02:36yes

01:02:36when you took up

01:02:39her food during

01:02:39that final week

01:02:40where did you put it

01:02:41well she always had it

01:02:42on a tray

01:02:42on her bed

01:02:43you say that

01:02:44when you went up

01:02:44it looked as though

01:02:45she'd eaten some of it

01:02:47though never a great deal

01:02:48yes

01:02:48what exactly do you mean

01:02:50by that

01:02:50well she'd stir the food

01:02:51up with a fork

01:02:52it was very difficult

01:02:52to tell her just

01:02:53how much had been eaten

01:02:54stir it up with a fork

01:02:55can you be more precise

01:02:56yes though she'd been

01:02:56picking it over

01:02:57but surely you could tell

01:02:58how much had been eaten

01:02:59well it looked as though

01:03:00some had been eaten

01:03:01I suggest none

01:03:02had been eaten

01:03:03look I couldn't tell

01:03:04you could not recognize

01:03:05a starving woman

01:03:06a woman who was starving

01:03:08because she'd ceased to eat

01:03:09no I didn't realize that

01:03:12when you went to visit

01:03:13your wife in hospital

01:03:14who looked after

01:03:15Mrs. Arthur

01:03:15no one

01:03:17she was all alone

01:03:19well it was only

01:03:20for a couple of hours

01:03:21at a time

01:03:21why did you not tell

01:03:23someone she was there

01:03:24why did you not

01:03:25ask someone

01:03:26to look in on her

01:03:26there was no one

01:03:27I could tell

01:03:28if we hadn't been

01:03:29in the village long

01:03:29we didn't know

01:03:30many people

01:03:31you run a pub

01:03:32and you do not

01:03:32know many people

01:03:33not to ask him

01:03:34something like that

01:03:35like what

01:03:35to look in on

01:03:36an old woman

01:03:37did you wash

01:03:39Mrs. Arthur

01:03:39during that final week

01:03:40no I didn't

01:03:43when you looked in

01:03:45on her

01:03:45and observed

01:03:46that she was

01:03:47asleep

01:03:48after a day

01:03:49in which she ate

01:03:50nothing at all

01:03:50did it not occur

01:03:52to you to go

01:03:52right up to her

01:03:53and check

01:03:53that she was alright

01:03:54no because

01:03:55I thought

01:03:55she was asleep

01:03:56and I didn't

01:03:57want to wake her up

01:03:58how had she been

01:03:59that day

01:03:59very drowsy

01:04:01she was a day

01:04:02away from death

01:04:02Mr. Barber

01:04:03look if I'd have

01:04:04noticed something

01:04:05I would have

01:04:05called a doctor

01:04:06I suggest you

01:04:07had left it

01:04:07too late

01:04:08I suggest you

01:04:10were too frightened

01:04:10to send for the doctor

01:04:12members of the jury

01:04:16who was responsible

01:04:19for the condition

01:04:20of this old lady

01:04:20when she died

01:04:21do not lose sight

01:04:23of the fact

01:04:23that for three months

01:04:24she lay virtually alone

01:04:26in an upstairs bedroom

01:04:27of the inn

01:04:27without any visitors

01:04:29without any attendance

01:04:31of a doctor

01:04:32only the regular attendance

01:04:35of the two people

01:04:36who were responsible

01:04:38for her care

01:04:38and well-being

01:04:39yet she died

01:04:41weighing only

01:04:41five stone eight pounds

01:04:43with very little fat

01:04:44on her body

01:04:44and in a starved

01:04:46and emaciated state

01:04:47does the fact

01:04:50that they never bothered

01:04:50to send for a doctor

01:04:51not suggest to you

01:04:53the most negligent

01:04:54of attitudes

01:04:55does the fact

01:04:57that no one else

01:04:58ever saw

01:04:58Mrs. Atta

01:04:59that Mrs. Sheppard

01:05:00even was turned away

01:05:01not suggest to you

01:05:03that they could see

01:05:04the terrible condition

01:05:06she was in

01:05:06for nearly twenty years

01:05:08we have heard

01:05:09this old lady

01:05:11nursed her husband

01:05:12at the hands

01:05:14of her daughter

01:05:14and son-in-law

01:05:15did she not deserve better

01:05:18members of the jury

01:05:21we have been led

01:05:23to believe

01:05:23that because

01:05:24Mrs. Atta

01:05:25was in a starved state

01:05:27she developed

01:05:28tuberculous meningitis

01:05:29the disease

01:05:30which killed her

01:05:31however

01:05:32Professor Mason

01:05:33has been prepared

01:05:34to admit

01:05:35that all of that

01:05:36starvation

01:05:36could have been

01:05:37attributable to the disease

01:05:39and that a mere

01:05:40deficiency in diet

01:05:41could have caused

01:05:42that tuberculosis

01:05:43to reappear

01:05:44sometime before

01:05:46the disease

01:05:47spread to the meninges

01:05:49now I suggest to you

01:05:52the possibility

01:05:53that that disease

01:05:55did reappear

01:05:56long before

01:05:58Mrs. Atta

01:05:58ever went to live

01:06:00with the barbers

01:06:00and this presents us

01:06:03with a very different picture

01:06:04because we can no longer

01:06:05be certain

01:06:06that any neglect

01:06:08by the barbers

01:06:09led to Mrs. Atta

01:06:10developing the disease

01:06:11which killed her

01:06:13will you members

01:06:16of the jury

01:06:17consider this tragic case

01:06:19not only with the utmost

01:06:20compassion

01:06:21but also with a regard

01:06:24to the very strong

01:06:25and nagging possibility

01:06:27that there may have been

01:06:29in truth

01:06:30no crime committed

01:06:32Members of the jury

01:06:37every person

01:06:40every person

01:06:40who takes charge

01:06:42of another person

01:06:43to provide

01:06:44the necessaries

01:06:45of life

01:06:46for that other person

01:06:48is criminally

01:06:49responsible

01:06:51if

01:06:52by reason of neglect

01:06:54death

01:06:56ensues

01:06:57to the person

01:06:58so neglected

01:06:59if the neglect

01:07:02of duty

01:07:03is such as

01:07:05to amount

01:07:05to a reckless

01:07:07disregard

01:07:08then the person

01:07:10responsible

01:07:11can be convicted

01:07:13of manslaughter

01:07:15now what

01:07:18if the necessaries

01:07:20of life

01:07:21were provided

01:07:23and Mrs. Atta

01:07:24neglected herself

01:07:26if medical advice

01:07:30was not sought

01:07:31and you thought

01:07:32that that was

01:07:34a gross neglect

01:07:35of duty

01:07:36then again

01:07:38it would be open

01:07:40to you

01:07:40to convicted

01:07:41of manslaughter

01:07:42you must ask

01:07:44yourself

01:07:45how apparent

01:07:47the self-neglect

01:07:49was

01:07:49there is

01:07:51no evidence

01:07:52that she did

01:07:53not eat

01:07:54during that

01:07:55three months

01:07:57though

01:07:59it is clear

01:08:00that she ate

01:08:01poorly

01:08:01you must

01:08:03decide

01:08:05if

01:08:06there is a

01:08:07foundation

01:08:07for the very

01:08:08real possibility

01:08:10that she

01:08:11disposed

01:08:12of food

01:08:13when she said

01:08:15that she had

01:08:16eaten it

01:08:17if you conclude

01:08:20that

01:08:21all the

01:08:23starvation

01:08:24took place

01:08:25during the

01:08:26disease

01:08:26then you may

01:08:28attach

01:08:29less guilt

01:08:30to

01:08:30Mrs. Barber

01:08:31who wasn't

01:08:33present

01:08:34during that

01:08:35final week

01:08:36how you

01:08:38apportion

01:08:38guilt

01:08:39will depend

01:08:41on how

01:08:42extensive

01:08:42you think

01:08:44the period

01:08:45of neglect

01:08:46was

01:08:46finally

01:08:49I must

01:08:51remind you

01:08:52that the

01:08:53burden

01:08:54of proof

01:08:54rests upon

01:08:55the prosecution

01:08:56before

01:08:58you can

01:09:00convict

01:09:00either of them

01:09:02you must

01:09:03be satisfied

01:09:04in either

01:09:06case

01:09:07beyond

01:09:07reasonable

01:09:09doubt

01:09:09that

01:09:11her death

01:09:12was brought

01:09:13about

01:09:13by the

01:09:14gross

01:09:15neglect

01:09:15of one

01:09:16or both

01:09:18the defendants

01:09:19in looking

01:09:20after her

01:09:21amounting

01:09:22to a

01:09:23reckless

01:09:24disregard

01:09:25whether

01:09:27she died

01:09:27or not

01:09:28I must

01:09:32now ask

01:09:32you to

01:09:33retire

01:09:33elect

01:09:35a foreman

01:09:36to speak

01:09:37for you

01:09:38and

01:09:40consider

01:09:40your

01:09:40verdicts

01:09:42members of

01:09:45the jury

01:09:45will your

01:09:46foreman

01:09:46please stand

01:09:47please answer

01:09:48my next

01:09:49question

01:09:49yes or

01:09:50no

01:09:50have you

01:09:51reached a

01:09:51verdict on

01:09:51which you

01:09:52are all

01:09:52agreed

01:09:52yes

01:09:53do you

01:09:54find

01:09:54Harold

01:09:54Barber

01:09:55guilty

01:09:55or not

01:09:56guilty

01:09:56of manslaughter

01:09:57guilty

01:09:57and that

01:09:58is the

01:09:59verdict of

01:09:59you all

01:09:59yes

01:10:00do you

01:10:01find

01:10:01Grace

01:10:02Barber

01:10:02guilty

01:10:03or not

01:10:03guilty

01:10:03of

01:10:04manslaughter

01:10:04guilty

01:10:05and that

01:10:05is the

01:10:06verdict

01:10:06of

01:10:06you

01:10:06all

01:10:06yes

01:10:07Harold

01:10:13and Grace

01:10:13Barber

01:10:14being found

01:10:15guilty

01:10:15of

01:10:15manslaughter

01:10:16were sentenced

01:10:16to two years

01:10:17imprisonment

01:10:17suspended

01:10:18as to half

01:10:19they can be

01:10:19released

01:10:20after one

01:10:20year

01:10:21and only

01:10:21save the

01:10:21remainder

01:10:22of their

01:10:22sentence

01:10:22if they

01:10:23re-offended

01:10:23you can

01:10:25join another

01:10:25jury when

01:10:26our cameras

01:10:26return to

01:10:27bring you

01:10:27a further

01:10:27case

01:10:28in the

01:10:28Crown Court

01:10:29against

01:10:43you

01:10:44you

01:10:46you

''Crown Court'' - There Was an Old Woman (1984) P1-P3 HD/Michael Jayston, Gwen Watford, S. Shaw

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