- 4 months ago
In an exclusive interview with India Today, senior Congress MP Shashi Tharoor talked about Donald Trump's threats of imposing 50% tariffs on India for buying Russian oil, his 'dead economy' jibe and how India should respond to the US' tariff threats.
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00:00And joining me now amidst this tariff battle that's taking place between the United States
00:12and India is a very special guest, Shashi Tharoor, Senior Congress MP and Chairperson
00:20of the Standing Committee on External Affairs. Appreciate your joining us, Dr. Tharoor. You've
00:25taken a very strong stand on what America has done. You seem to suggest that if the
00:29United States puts 50 percent tariffs on India, India should retaliate with equal tariffs
00:35on the United States. Do you want to explain your position, Dr. Tharoor?
00:39Well, I mean, Mr. Trump likes to speak about reciprocal tariffs. That is reciprocity. So
00:45if indeed on the 27th of August, 50 percent kicks in, I see absolutely no reason why India
00:53should not insist on reciprocity. That's the principle that's involved. But that's a
00:59subsidiary point, Rajdeep. There's still three weeks to go almost. And we need to put those
01:05three weeks to good use by negotiating effectively, which I believe our negotiators are going to
01:10do. But we'll have to do this obviously with a certain amount of, shall we put it bluntly,
01:16a certain amount of resolve that if necessary, we're going to have to walk away. We are simply
01:22far too proud and independent a country to be allowing ourselves to be subject to being
01:27browbeaten or bullied by anybody. And as far as I'm concerned, these may be merely idiosyncratic
01:34negotiating tactics. You all know that Mr. Trump has a reputation for clinching deals in somewhat
01:41unusual ways. And this may merely be a way of putting pressure on us. But nonetheless, the way it was done
01:48was demeaning and belittling with the kind of language used. Secondly, it was unfair because
01:54now we have even China, which buys far more oil and gas and has a far bigger trade relationship
02:00with the Russians. China is going to be at 30 percent on the 27th of August, and we're going
02:08to be at 50 percent. So, I mean, it's just completely upending the entire notion of a strategic relationship
02:16with India versus a competitive rivalry with China. To my mind, if Mr. Trump can cast us
02:24so lightly to the winds, then we do have some serious rethinking to do as a country.
02:30There are two parts from what you've said that I want to come to one by one. The first
02:37is you seem to suggest retaliatory tariffs as a way to sort of look up and stand up to
02:44the bully. Now, I've spoken to a number of economists who are saying we don't need to
02:48get into a tariff war. Let's keep the temperature down. Let's cool things down. Do you agree that
02:54that could be one way to do things? Because the moment you get into retaliatory tariffs, then
02:59you're getting into a tariff war that can spiral out of control. So, that's the first part
03:04that I want to ask you.
03:05Radheep, okay. So, on that, let me say, first of all, I'm not suggesting any immediate reaction.
03:10I'm not even suggesting that we should immediately announce anything. All I'm saying is that when
03:15the 27th of August comes, if we are literally one of two countries on the entire planet that's
03:22paying 50 percent, you can be pretty sure that the bottom is going to drop out of our exports
03:27to America anyway. Because how many people who are importing Indian goods in America
03:33are going to be prepared to pay a 50 percent premium when our competitors, including Vietnam, Indonesia,
03:40even Pakistan and Bangladesh are 20 percent or lower, 19 percent in some cases, 15 percent in some.
03:46So, why would anyone buy anything from India at that point if we are at 50? So, in any case,
03:53at that point, I think we should make it very clear that if you do this to us, we will do
03:58it to you. If we don't, we are essentially, what is the point of being cool when you've got
04:03a 50 percent tariff on you? The second part of what you are saying is that you seem to suggest
04:12it's time to expose US double standards. Here is a country which is allowing China to import twice
04:19the amount of oil that we do from Russia. EU and the United States continues to trade with Russia
04:24and different products, but different standards are being imposed on us. So, in a way, what you're also
04:29saying the time has come to call out US or Trumpian double standards. Am I correct?
04:35Well, absolutely. China is not the only one, by the way. The EU also buys, as you mentioned,
04:40but more important, even America, when their national interests are involved, they buy from Russia. You
04:46know what they're buying? They're buying very significant quantities of fertilizers. In the five
04:54months, from January to May of 2025, they have actually bought 806 million dollars, which you
05:01can multiply that by and add it to you. If that's five months and in 12 months, we're easily looking
05:07at 1.8 billion or so minimum, maybe close to 2 billion. Uranium, which is something they get from
05:13Russia. They've got 28 percent increase since last year in their uranium imports from Russia.
05:19Palladium, which is used in catalytic converters, their palladium imports last year were about
05:26almost a billion dollars, 817 million. And then they're buying other small things, aircraft, engine
05:31parts and chemicals and, God knows, industrial machinery, wood products. It's not that the Americans
05:38will deny themselves the right to buy from Russia. Now, how can Mr. Trump argue that our dollars are
05:44fueling the Russian war machine, but American dollars that they are spending in Russia are
05:49not fueling the Russian war machine? Isn't this errant hypocrisy? Isn't this completely unfair and
05:55unjustified? So from my point of view, we really do need to point out that there is something completely
06:01wrong here. It may simply be, as I said, a question of Mr. Trump's negotiating style. He may actually be
06:08hoping that we will blink first. But he has certainly tried the wrong sort of language.
06:14With a country that for 200 years groaned under the colonial yoke, we are simply not going to accept
06:21being dictated to, Radhi. Even if our government wanted to do it, I can assure you public opinion
06:27in this country, in parliament and the opposition will all stand up unitedly saying that our self-respect
06:33is more important than an American market. So I think this is something that the Americans
06:39have always understood in the past. Previous Indian governments were treated with a great deal of
06:44respect by previous American presidents. This kind of disrespectful, belittling, demeaning language
06:52is not something which I'm afraid we will take kindly to in this country. Now, I'm not saying that we
06:58should be heated. As you've seen, I'm not being heated in my response. I'm just telling you, let
07:03us be absolutely conscious that we have a three-week window. But at the end of that, if this unfairness
07:09persists, we have absolutely no reason not to walk away and look at other horizons. It will hurt in the
07:16short term. There will be some items, very, very few, which even despite 50% tariffs, they may still
07:23want to purchase from us. But everything else that is actually got 50% on it, you can be certain that
07:30the market for those items in America will dry up. We will have to find other markets. Who knows,
07:35maybe there will be an enterprising UK producer who will import items from India, repackage them as
07:42made in UK and resell them to America. Then somebody will do a thriving business, the way in which
07:46people in Dubai are sending Indian goods to Pakistan that way. That may happen now. We may have a black
07:52market going on through other countries. With the UK, we have zero tariffs on 99% of our goods. So maybe
07:58that could be something that somebody in UK could start doing. I don't know.
08:05But do you think, Dr. Tharoor, you mentioned the kind of deplorable language used by Donald Trump.
08:11Are you, in a way, taken aback? Have we misread Donald Trump, particularly Trump 2.0? You know,
08:17we put our hands for friendship. The Prime Minister invested a lot of his personal equity,
08:22ap ki baar, tham sarkar, namaste Trump, howdy Modi. And at the end of the day, what do we get?
08:29The US President calls India a dead economy, threatens us with these punitive tariffs. Are you,
08:37in a way, surprised? Have we been caught by surprise or have we misread Donald Trump 2.0 in particular?
08:45Look, on the dead economy comment, I really think it's nothing more than the equivalent
08:50of a schoolyard bully telling a smaller child, your mother is ugly. He may not even have seen the
08:54mother. It's not meant to be taken literally. It's meant to be a way of basically insulting the other
09:01person. The idea is for the other person to feel taken aback and thereby to be at a weaker position.
09:08In this case, in a schoolyard bully, but in this other case, in a diplomatic negotiation.
09:14Mr. Trump is famous for his unconventional techniques. When Larry King asked him about
09:19his negotiating style in a famous interview, Radeep, Trump replied by saying, do you mind if I move my
09:25chair away from you? You have terrible breath coming out of your mouth. Do you realize that?
09:29Have people told you that? Larry King was shattered. His face fell. And then Trump dominated the interview,
09:34got all his messages across. And in the end, when he got up and the cameras were switched off,
09:38he said to Larry King, you want to see my negotiating style? I just showed you.
09:42That's that was the Donald King, the Donald Trump, I beg your pardon, of the art of the deal.
09:47So he will say and do anything to make a deal that he wants,
09:51but he may have picked the wrong target for insulting language.
09:59But do you think, as you mentioned, there needs to be a consensus, a political consensus on how
10:04to deal with Trump? When Trump called India a dead economy, the Congress leadership,
10:08certainly Rahul Gandhi sort of said, yes, Trump is right. We are a dead economy. Do you believe that we
10:14need to be more careful in our choice of words? We cannot echo what Donald Trump says. Does there
10:19need to be therefore a political consensus on taking on Donald Trump and calling him out in the
10:24manner that you are on this show at the moment? Rajiv, I speak honestly for myself. I'm not an
10:30official spokesman of my party, and I don't want you to get me wrong. I'm really not pretending to
10:34speak for anybody else but myself. You ask me my personal opinion, you're getting it. I believe in
10:41what I say. It's as simple as that. And as far as I'm concerned, I don't believe that it is right for
10:47Mr. Trump to speak to India in this way. Whoever is in the Indian government, whichever party is in
10:52power, our self-respect is simply not up for bargaining. I'm sorry. It's as simple as that.
10:59And as far as the substance is concerned, by all means, keep a cool head. By all means,
11:03negotiate over the next three weeks with some sense. Try and explain to the Americans why we
11:09have certain red lines. We have 700 million people in our country who are dependent on agriculture.
11:14We cannot sell them down the river with subsidized American grains flooding our market.
11:20There are other areas where we might be able to show some flexibility and some give.
11:25I think we may not be needing to resist a number of American items where, in any case,
11:30only a small percentage of Indian consumers can afford to buy them, just like we gave in during
11:35Trump 1.0 on Harley-Davidson motorcycles because Trump made an issue of that. I mean, after all,
11:42they went from selling, God knows, 83 motorcycles in India per year to about 280 motorcycles instead
11:49after we lowered the tariffs. Doesn't hurt anybody. We didn't need to impose heavy tariffs on Harley-Davidson
11:54because it's a very small elite segment that can afford them. So like that, there may be things we
11:59can give in on to show the Americans we're making concessions, but which will not hurt the vast
12:05majority of Indians because the vast majority of Indians will not be buying those American items.
12:11To my mind, that kind of negotiation we should be doing. But when it comes to fundamentals,
12:18there are interests that any government would have. Frankly, whether it is Mr. Modi or tomorrow,
12:24Mr. Gandhi, no one is going to sell our farmers down the river. There is a consensus that we are
12:30living with an agricultural economy on which a substantial percentage of our population is still
12:36dependent. We have a certain political responsibility towards them. No government can afford to abandon that.
12:45So in a sense, you're endorsing the red line that Prime Minister Modi and his government has drawn.
12:51The Prime Minister has also very clearly said, no, no compromise when it comes to agriculture.
12:56We will be there to defend our farmers interests, even if it means taking tough choices.
13:02Yes. I mean, the truth is that on these matters, I think most Indian governments have recognized some
13:08of our vulnerabilities and agriculture, because so many farmers are living very, very close to breakpoint.
13:15You know that we have farmer suicides every year. When harvests fail and they are unable to pay their
13:21deaths, many farmers take their lives. These are not people you can suddenly impose
13:27phenomenal competition from subsidized, mass-produced grain. And that's just one example. But it's an
13:34example of the fact that in every democracy, people have red lines that reflect the domestic
13:40interests of their country. America has red lines that reflect the political power of certain interest
13:45groups and certain lobbies. Any American negotiator will understand that if it's properly explained.
13:51So I wish our negotiators luck in explaining some of these things and persuading their own government
13:57that we are really offering the best deal that we can offer.
14:00My final question to you, we've seen Donald Trump on the ceasefire, Shashi Tharu try and claim credit,
14:09not once, twice, but 29, 30 times and counting, saying he was responsible for an Indo-Park ceasefire
14:17on Operation Sindhu. Now we've seen the manner in which he's sort of taking on India, calling us a dead economy.
14:24In your view, have we have we dealt with Donald Trump the wrong way? How would you have dealt with
14:32someone like Donald Trump, who's either seems to like flattery in some form or else, as you're suggesting,
14:40confronted? What is the ideal way? If you were advising the prime minister or the diplomats who are
14:47negotiating with Donald Trump, how does one deal with someone like a Donald Trump? Have you ever seen
14:53anything like this in your long career in public life?
14:56No, I don't think anyone has seen quite a political leader. You'll have to ask Melania
15:02Trump, I think, how she how she deals with the Donald. But let me just say, Razeep, that as far as
15:11Mr. Trump's claims about the ceasefire were concerned, my assumption is that he must have
15:18lent heavily on the Pakistanis. And we should have probably given him credit for that. You know,
15:24we didn't need persuading and he didn't call us because we didn't. We signaled from day one that
15:29if the Pakistanis hit, we hit. If they stop, we stop. That was always the approach that the Congress,
15:34beg your pardon, that the government of India took consistently. And therefore, we didn't need
15:40persuading. But the Pakistanis may have been trying to explore all options of hitting India, especially
15:45after we hit their 11 air bases on the night of the 9th, 10th. Maybe the Americans lent heavily on
15:51the Pakistanis. So we could have given him credit for that and said, you know, your contribution in
15:57getting the Pakistanis to sue for peace. We really appreciate that was a very nice gesture, something
16:02like that to flatter him. I don't know. But I mean, that perhaps would have been enough to modify him
16:08because certainly he did not persuade us. And I think the prime minister is right in clarifying to the
16:14Indian public that he didn't get any call or any pressure from the Americans. He didn't need it
16:19either. But the Pakistanis may well have done. And that may be why the Pakistanis are following over
16:25backwards to express their gratitude to to America for having given them the face saving out of a
16:32brookered peace.
16:37Okay, Shashi Tharoor, for speaking your mind and speaking so plainly. I wonder what would be your
16:44first line? What would be a Tharoorism? If you met Donald Trump tomorrow morning, you have a Tharoorism to
16:51give us. What would you tell Donald Trump? I'll tell you after it happens, Rajdeep. Take care. Thanks very much.
17:02Yeah, but we may, you know, we may well need you at some stage to to send out Donald Trump,
17:09the kind of message that you sent on this show tonight. But I appreciate Shashi Tharoor,
17:14you joining me here on the show. Thank you so much.
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