00:00He's got a book out on paperback, Football Done Right,
00:03Setting the Record Straight on the Coaches, Players, and History of the NFL.
00:07Michael Lombardi, who, of course, running the program at UNC there as well.
00:11Michael, thanks for the time.
00:12How are you?
00:14Appreciate it.
00:15It's good to be here.
00:15Appreciate you guys.
00:17Did Leroy Horde, did my guy Leroy Horde, did he make the cut, Michael Lombardi?
00:20Do we have a chapter on Leroy Horde, his short yardage situations,
00:25or his shoulder pads?
00:27We could.
00:28You know, Leroy's draft actually in Cleveland was a really good draft
00:31that paid dividends for the Ravens down the road.
00:34Rob Burnett, Anthony Pleasant, Leroy.
00:37It was a good draft.
00:38And certainly Leroy, the year we went to the playoffs in 1994,
00:42the last time I think the Browns before for a long time won a playoff game,
00:46Leroy carried the team.
00:47We beat New England at the stadium, and Leroy was dynamic.
00:51So, yeah, Leroy, in fact, Bill and I were on the field the other day
00:55talking about a back that kind of reminded us of Leroy.
00:58So, you know, players never leave you.
01:01You know, you always are comparing them.
01:04You're watching them.
01:05You kind of remember.
01:06You know, the problem is I'm so old that I bring up players' names to the staff
01:11and they don't know who the hell I'm talking about.
01:13That's the truth.
01:13It is, it is, it is funny.
01:16But, Mike, you know, it's weird because I see you in this new role but at, you know,
01:24a different level.
01:25But there are a lot of parallels in that you still have to identify talent
01:32and value of talent.
01:35And is it much harder at this level because they're so young?
01:40And you, the only, you've never seen them perform at a comparative level.
01:46So, you've never seen them play against players that are equal to them.
01:51No question, Leroy.
01:52That's the challenge.
01:53The beauty of it is, is that if you don't get, if you're not able to draft a guy
01:59in the second round of the NFL, you lose out.
02:02Then you're stuck.
02:04In college, if you lose out on getting a kid from, you know, South Florida, you know,
02:10you can go to the panhandle and find another guy similar to him.
02:13But the evaluation part is the hardest.
02:16You know, when we first got here, Bill and I, everybody watches huddle tapes.
02:20It's, oh, have you seen my huddle tape?
02:22And it's the worst thing you could ever watch.
02:24It's a, it's a promotional tape.
02:26You know, the players put together their tape and, you know, one plays the kickoff
02:30return, the next plays a tackle, the next plays a fumble recovery.
02:34It makes no sense.
02:35So, it's taken us a little bit of time to get, understand how to break down the high
02:40school tapes, but we're doing it.
02:41And I agree with you, it's hard.
02:43You just got to try to understand the conference they play in.
02:46And then, as, as anything in the college draft, it's about level of comp.
02:51Is it more limited than a salary cap?
02:54Because, you know, all schools don't have the access to the money.
02:58You can't use a sign of bonus.
02:58Yeah, you can't use the sign of bonus to spread.
03:01You can't use years.
03:02The problem is it's a year-to-year contract league, and that, that makes it hard.
03:06So, you are going to get cap room.
03:08The other beautiful thing about this is there's no dead money.
03:11So, it isn't like you've got to put some dead money.
03:13You know, I cut this six players, and I got $5 million worth of dead money, right?
03:17Right.
03:18Let's move on.
03:19And so, look, it is, look, the University of Miami, I mean, they've got a lot of players.
03:25They're spending money.
03:26They're running their cap, doing what they have to do.
03:29It's no different than a pro team.
03:31And that's why this job is so much fun for me because, you know, Bill and I, when we talked
03:35about the college game this past fall, last year, you know, when he said to me, would
03:41you be interested in going to college?
03:42I said, yeah, it's a pro game.
03:44It's the same.
03:45And the difference is you have more availability.
03:47You know, as Nick Saban said, we don't have to listen to the draft.
03:50We can go find players.
03:52So, what was that buzz about the Canes over when the ACC media was all happening?
03:57You were gearing up.
03:58I know you guys don't got them on the regular season, Michael, but obviously, they got a
04:01big year ahead.
04:02Like, do you keep your eye on guys in programs, even if you're not maybe going to face them
04:07in the regular season?
04:09I mean, no, you certainly have to.
04:11You've got to understand who the level of comp is, right?
04:13I think one of the mistakes we made in Cleveland with Leroy was we kept, we were so preoccupied
04:18with Denver, and we tried to beat Denver and John Elway, and that's all we talked about
04:23when Washington, Philly, and the Giants would go into Denver and just kick Denver's butt.
04:29Like, they had no problem beating Denver, the NFC East, when they were really good.
04:33And so, I think you have to understand who's the competition, and certainly, it's not always
04:37in your level.
04:38It's not always in your conference.
04:39Clemson's good.
04:40Miami's good.
04:41Florida State had a down year.
04:43So, you're always going to watch those teams repeatedly.
04:45I'm going to have them on my monitor every single week.
04:49But I think you have to understand what it takes to play at the highest level and find
04:53players that fit that level.
04:55Because Rhett Lashley kind of made some noise with the SEC folks over there, because nobody
05:00ever should ever say anything about the SEC.
05:02Did you agree going into your first year with this SEC and seeing the talent around there?
05:06Do you feel like it's a conference that's a bit overlooked as far as the other ones are
05:11concerned?
05:11Well, I mean, obviously, you know, the Southeast Conference and the Big Ten have all the networks
05:18and that.
05:19But I think when you look at it, look, SMU went into Penn State and played as well as
05:23you could play in a very tough environment.
05:26They're a good program.
05:27Rhett's done a really good job.
05:28I think one thing about college that's pretty clear is if you understand how to manage games,
05:33if you understand how to give your team the best opportunity, emphasize the kicking game,
05:38you know, you can keep the games close.
05:39I mean, when you look at the ACC last year, there were very few routes, you know, there,
05:44you know, not nobody beat everybody.
05:46I mean, North Carolina won eight, six games last year and easily could have won nine if
05:51they lost a lot of one score games.
05:53So it's a fairly competitive environment.
05:56And I think in the Southeast Conference, that doesn't always hold the case.
05:59Talking to Michael Lombardi, you guys can get his book, Football Done Right, setting the
06:04record straight on coaches, players, and the history of the NFL available in a paperback
06:07now.
06:08Of course, Hadley, Roy Horta, we lad in, in, in Cleveland.
06:12Hey, is, is Bill smiling more?
06:15Is he enjoying it more?
06:17I think he loves it.
06:20You know, somebody called me the other day and said, uh, that knows Bill and said, is
06:24he having as much fun as it seems like he's having?
06:26And I said, yeah, he loves it.
06:28Look, look, the beautiful thing about this thing here is we can run the program.
06:33I don't have some salary cap guy coming down, telling me what I need to spend.
06:37Right.
06:37I don't have some owner's son telling me what we need to do.
06:41I, I, that that's over with, you know, this is just really just football and we get to
06:46run the program.
06:47If Bill gets to put his program in, which is great.
06:50I think it's one, I think one of the most overlooked things in the NFL, at the NFL level,
06:58and I've seen coaches that go to college is exactly what you just said.
07:03It seems more about football and not about the other stuff.
07:07I remember when we were in Cleveland, nobody ever really talked about Belichick's ability
07:13to coach and whether you like Bill or didn't like him or some of his things, you were annoyed
07:20by some of the things he did.
07:21You knew you were as well prepared as you would ever be for a football game.
07:26And, and now you don't have to deal with all the interactions with all the people you
07:31talked about in the media because he had no personality.
07:35Everybody took that as a negative.
07:37And so it's right.
07:40And they'd never realized what a great coach he is.
07:43I mean, it's like, you know, look, how many guys are great with the media?
07:47You know, I mean, if you're great with the media, you get a pass.
07:50I mean, poor Marty Schottenheimer, he can't get in the hall of fame.
07:54I wrote about it in football.
07:55I'm right.
07:55Marty Schottenheimer's won 200 regular season games in his career.
07:59There's only eight other people on planet earth that did that.
08:03Right.
08:04And so like, how do you not put him in the hall of fame when you're one of eight out of
08:08500 and some coaches, how do you not put that player in the hall of fame person, but he
08:13can't get a vote because everybody has an excuse.
08:15Well, he didn't win a big game.
08:16Well, Marv Levy didn't win a Superbowl and he's in, he was over four, but granted what
08:21a Superbowl he's in, you know?
08:23I mean, so I think it's a little bit hypocritical.
08:26And I think guys like that, it becomes who was, who was kind to the media.
08:30And that's why I wrote the book.
08:31And if you read the book, the last chapter, I explain why I wrote the book.
08:35It's a little bit like what Larry David talked about in one of his shows.
08:39I wanted to spark a conversation, the middler.
08:42I wanted somebody to come in and talk.
08:43And I think Sterling Sharp finally getting in the hall of fame explains why I wrote the
08:48book.
08:48Cause that was one of the key points of my book was Sterling Sharp belongs to the hall
08:52of fame, but because he only played seven years, people said he couldn't, but, oh, by
08:56the way, Terrell Davis only played six, but he's in the hall of fame.
08:59Tony Buscelli only played 10, but he's in the hall of fame.
09:02You know, there's just hypocritical rules.
09:04That's why I'm boycotting all a hall of fame activities until Metcalf gets in.
09:09I mean, there's a guy who returned two punts in the same game, one in Pittsburgh game.
09:14Yeah.
09:14I mean, you know, but he didn't have Devin Hesper.
09:17Devin Hesper is a great player.
09:18I'm not disputing that, but Metcalf was incredible in a lot of different areas.
09:23Michael, what do you think of a, with the dolphins down here?
09:25Like we talk about coaches and development, like we're kind of interested in seeing this
09:29year, if Mike McDaniel can get back or make his team more physical, like the idea that
09:35this team can change their identity from what they've been there.
09:38They're fused.
09:38Do you feel like as a young coach going into his fourth year, is that something that's
09:41possible?
09:42Cause it seems like the buzz from the players is better this year, but you don't really
09:45know until you get into it.
09:47Yeah.
09:48I think you don't know until you get into it.
09:49I mean, Mike is who he is.
09:51You know, Bill Parshall has had a great line.
09:52This is when a player shows you who he is, believe him.
09:55And I think when a coach shows you who is, believe him now, can he change?
09:59We'll see.
09:59I think it's important, but it's been that way forever.
10:02You know, I mean, look, he's been through three defensive coordinators.
10:05Is he going to, you know, he's now he's on the second, so it's just the first year he's
10:09actually stayed with the defensive coordinator.
10:11But I think it's a hard job to be a defensive coordinator for an offensive coach who just
10:14wants to run perfect plays.
10:16Mike, it's, it's, I say it's a, it's a situation of overcoaching the situation.
10:22Whereas he doesn't let his players go out on the field and compete because running the
10:28football is all about competing in front.
10:30They usually know what you're going to run.
10:32And it's about a mindset of knowing that this is the time where we have to run the football.
10:37And he tries to avoid that by running all these, you know, quick passes and stuff like
10:43that.
10:43And I'm more shocked that in every other offense he's been associated with, he's never
10:48been that.
10:50Yeah.
10:51It's amazing.
10:51Right.
10:51He was a run game guru in San Francisco.
10:54Right.
10:55And yet now he comes there and he, all he wants to do is call pass plays.
10:58But here's the reality though.
11:00And I think people miss this, you know, to be a head coach, you have to do what's in the
11:05best interest of how to win the game.
11:07You just can't run plays.
11:09People are preoccupied with that.
11:11The best head coaches are the ones that set up a game plan that win that specific game
11:16on that day.
11:18And if it needs to run 50 times, you run at 50, but you can't go into Buffalo in a playoff
11:23game and think you're going to throw it 40 times with the third string quarterback.
11:27I think you're going to win.
11:29Michael Lombardi, go get his book.
11:31Now football done right.
11:33Send the record straight on coaches, players, and the history of the NFL.
11:36I'm telling you about the next, Hey, the next, uh, the next edition that comes out, we
11:39need a Leroy Horde chapter.
11:40I'm talking, uh, I'm talking how big the shoulder pads are, the short yardage, because
11:44nothing, nothing would bring me more joy than that.
11:47Nothing good.
11:48Always good to talk to you.
11:48Thank you guys.
11:49All right.
11:50There you go.
11:50Michael Lombardi joining.
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