Professor of Digital Media at the Queensland University of Technology discusses the government's decision to include YouTube in its controversial social media ban for children and teenagers under 16.
00:00It was really puzzling last year when this debate was going on why YouTube wasn't included.
00:08And I think as we've seen with all the media attention today, this move is going to really, I think, sort of raise the stakes and bring the debate back into the public consciousness because it's, you know, YouTube is a really broad general purpose media technology now.
00:26So it's forcing us to kind of ask, hang on, what is social media? And what are children's rights here? And gosh, will this even work? So I guess that's why we're here this morning.
00:39Yeah. And before we get into that debate, you know, just to spell it out, what we understand of it, under 16s, they can't have their own account under this ban.
00:46They could still access YouTube without logging in. And they could also access YouTube kids, of course. So what content would be restricted in this?
00:56Look, it's really not clear from the outside. And this is one of the big problems with this whole area is that platforms don't really tell us as much as we'd like to know.
01:08But it's not necessarily the case that content wouldn't be available if you search for it.
01:15For example, this morning, without being logged in, I searched for just the keyword feminism.
01:20And let me tell you what I saw on the first page of results was pretty alarming in terms of those issues with misogyny and so on.
01:28But it may be that, in fact, certain content that you do see if you're logged in as a young person is not available to you as just a general logged in user.
01:42But I think what this is really about is that, in the government's terms, the logged in state.
01:50So this is really about that sort of endless scroll, the sort of harmful impacts, presumed harmful impacts of the suggested content stream and so on.
02:02And if we can expand a bit on that, like what went to the heart of the issue with YouTube?
02:08Was it the algorithms, the endless scrolling, the ability to communicate with others or a combination of that?
02:14Well, that's a great question.
02:17I think that it's a question that extends across the entire sort of sweep of platforms that are caught up in this legislation.
02:25What is the definition of social media and what are the problems that we're seeking to address?
02:30Is it about cyberbullying, in which case, why aren't instant messaging apps like WhatsApp included?
02:36Is it about algorithms, in which case, hang on, is Netflix bad too?
02:41Are educational platforms bad too?
02:44Or is it actually about the cultures of platforms and the incentives that creators and people uploading videos have to just get attention at any cost?
02:56In which case, this is something that is much deeper than just locking kids out of having accounts can address, I think.
03:04And so, you know, overall, it sounds like you're not a fan of what's being put forward.
03:08Is it, you know, what you're seeing this ban is?
03:12Or is it that you've got too many questions still to be answered about it?
03:16Lots of questions.
03:18And I'm certainly a fan of helping young people to navigate their way through the really tricky landscape of our contemporary media environment.
03:30I think the best way to do that is by really empowering them and their parents with media literacy.
03:39And I don't think it's possible to build media literacy if you're locked out of having the kinds of tools for controlling your own experience that platforms have been building.
03:49And barring users under 16 from that logged in experience under this ban, what do you believe the impact of that will be in what we're looking at at the moment?
03:58Well, just to go back over the debate we had last year, there are many instances, as people, you know, as your viewers will know, of really positive and affirming uses of these platforms, whether it's to participate in a craft community, to learn how to play the guitar, or to just find like-minded people if you're in a minority community around the world or around Australia.
04:25And there's a weird kind of disjunction here, because so many young people kind of have aspirations to be part of the content creator economy.
04:35And at the same time, they're being told that they should be out kicking a football.
04:41Well, not everyone wants to go out and kick a football.
04:44So I think there'll be a lot of harms.
04:46And actually, there's a serious issue of children's rights here.
04:50The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is very clear that young people have the right to access communication and media, a variety of those, sort of independently of governments.
05:02And even in some cases, perhaps, where appropriate, their parents.
05:06I know that's terrible to say.
05:07But at the same time, of course, we want to make sure that people are being guided through that experience, that information economy in ways that uplift them, that enhance their well-being, and that don't cause harm.
05:20But that extends to all of us.
05:21So this kind of lets platforms off the hook, I think, in terms of improving their cultures, their algorithms, their content moderation practices for everyone.
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