- 7/23/2025
On Wednesday's edition of Zolak and Bertrand, the guys were joined by Phil Perry who covers the Patriots for NBC Sports Boston. While recapping the first training camp practice for the Patriots, Perry explained how the Patriots may have some real receivers on the roster in Stefon Diggs, and rookie Kyle Williams.
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00:00We have Phil Perry of NBC Sports Boston joining us here at Gillette Stadium on the back ramp
00:08overlooking the practice fields. He's in the Super Service Today guest chair. Massachusetts
00:13number one provider for plumbing, heated, cooling, and drain cleaning day or night.
00:17And always done right, visit superservicetoday.com. Phil. What's up, boys? Football's back, baby. It's
00:23back. How excited are you? How come you don't bring your chair like Greg Bedard carries the chair?
00:28I just like to sit right on the hill there. Okay. Yeah. Trying to be, you know, one with my
00:32environment. I'm grounding. Yeah. Tristan Kosta style. But no, I don't need to be comfortable
00:39either. I want to be a little bit on edge as I'm watching practice. That keeps me more involved.
00:45Right. Yeah. I thought it was a pretty good day for them, especially offensively. You know,
00:48the line may be not so hot, but it's no pads. I'm not putting a whole lot of stock into that
00:53just yet. But I thought Drake may look sharp, and I thought two of his receivers look pretty
00:57good. Kyle Williams and Stephon Diggs. Well, speaking of Greg Bedard, if Zoe was doing three
01:02up, three down today, I think he might be giving the left tackle a down.
01:07Zolakwood or Bedard? I mean, Zolak. Okay. The problem was there was two run-throughs, and
01:11you're going to get those in these type of practices. Sure. Because it's tough on the defense.
01:14If you're not getting blocked, your job's to go get the quarterback you're going to run
01:17through. You're not getting blocked. I mean, what else are you going to do?
01:19So, sometimes those are hard to gauge, because the guy's just running right by the quarterback.
01:24So, you say to yourself, if this was a game situation, would that have been a sack?
01:27I always do that, and it's not a sack. But, I mean, our vantage point up here, and we've
01:31done this for years. That sack, that's a sack. I'll call it a sack from up here, because
01:35the ball's not gone. I did not have it for a sack on that play to Kyle Williams.
01:39I thought it would be a sack. Who I thought impressed today. Phil, do you agree?
01:43Yeah, I thought so, too. I thought it was a nice job by him, especially, you know, maybe
01:47the play of the day for the Patriots' offense. A little comeback route along the sideline.
01:51Drake May had some good quotes about it after the fact, you know, because Christian Gonzalez
01:55is all over him. And Drake May's sitting there saying, I'm not going to let him have a boring
01:58practice. I'm going to go at him in practice. And, you know, you would think, okay, if
02:02Stephon Diggs is working on Christian Gonzalez, that's one thing. But you've got a third-round
02:05rookie out there working on one of the best corners in football, and he didn't hesitate.
02:09That play was on time. Nice job by Williams. I think he had to climb the ladder a little bit,
02:13but plucked it out of the air. Gonzalez is right on his back. So that's a good sign for
02:17the young kid who I think they need to contribute because, to me, this is still a deficient receiver
02:23room. And so if he can give you more than expected, then that, to me, is going to help
02:28them a lot become maybe one of these on the wrong end of being a fringe playoff team to
02:33on the right end of it.
02:34How bad does it look for Polk and Baker? Like, really? I mean, one guy can't even get on a
02:39damn field. And I don't think they're fighting them. They're fighting Kayshaun Booty.
02:43I'd be stunned if Baker sniffs the roster. And Polk, his saving grace is he's a second-round
02:48pick, but we saw less of him today than we did all spring. At least during the spring,
02:53he was on a side field when they had competitive periods of practice going on, offense versus
02:58defense. And he's working with a coach, and he's running routes, and he actually looked
03:01pretty good, pretty fluid. It's on air. Got it. But today, he was a ghost. I think he
03:06was down on the lower field maybe for a little while. He's on a stationary bike for a little
03:09while. So clearly, he's still coming back from something. But what's odd about that
03:13one is? We'll have to, you know, kick around, you know, and see if we can find an answer
03:17on this. But he didn't start the year on PUP. He didn't start the year on NFI. Why is
03:22he not on the field?
03:23Just absent. What's up with that?
03:26It's got to be something physical if he's lingering around the sidelines the way he was
03:30today. But it's just odd that two days ago, whatever it was, wasn't significant enough
03:36to get him on one of these reserve lists. What an epic waste of time this is. Get the
03:40Fox Pro flu, man. Find a way to get an IR. It's really, it's becoming progressively with
03:45each passing day. Harder to find a spot for this guy. Think about that receiver room.
03:50How many receivers do you think they keep? We've been talking about this. Is it six? Is it
03:53possibly seven? Mike Reese has them keeping seven. I think it could be seven. But to me,
03:57they've got five guys that I think should be on the roster. And it would be Diggs,
04:02Hollins, if he's healthy, that's another guy's on a reserve list right now. Kyle Williams,
04:06Pop Douglas, and I would put Kayshawn Booty on there. Just based on how he's been used in
04:11the spring and how he was even used today. Then I think you have three guys for one or
04:15two spots. And it's Bourne, Polk, and Chisholm. That to me is how I would be looking at it right
04:21now. Everybody else is just filling out the back end of the roster.
04:24If they get to seven, I see it being Chisholm as the seventh guy.
04:27I just don't see them keeping a seventh receiver and it being Polk.
04:33I can't see that. Unless maybe it's, you know, the Elliott Wolf factor. That was his
04:37second pick. That's his second pick in the big chair. I wouldn't worry about the Drake
04:41May factor. Like if I, if I'm standing there and I get this guy in the huddle,
04:44am I throwing him the ball? Like I'm hearing May talk today. He even talked to, he
04:47mentioned Hollins. Like, Hey, you know, these are some veteran guys in here. They got
04:51confidence in me and I, I got to trust them. They trust me. Not once did he ever bring up Polk.
04:55No. He's going through names and he, yeah, you get the cow, cow might some nice
04:58catches there. We got the new running back. He knows. He doesn't even mention me. He
05:02knows. The only reason, the only reason you would keep him is because you think
05:05with a lot more seasoning, he eventually turns into, he's not even close to
05:09contributing on the roster. So when you talk about Bourne and Chisholm being those
05:13guys and battling at the end of the, I guess, receiver roster or depth chart, I look at
05:19it and say, if the kid they just drafted proves that he can play right away, that
05:26makes it easier to move off the previous draft picks. Doesn't it? It's like, Hey, we
05:29got the new guy who just walked through the door. We just took him in the spring
05:32and look, he's ready to go. And it highlights that you're a year in and still
05:36not ready to go. That to me might be the most damning thing for those young
05:39players. No question. I just, I think you just have to do whatever you can do. And
05:44if you're Mike Vrabel, listen, like we know it, this is Vrabel's team. He's going to be
05:47able to put his thumb on the scales, whichever way he wants when it comes to
05:50these positional battles. Does he have any connection or desire, you know, beyond
05:55the, the, uh, anything, you know, average in terms of like wanting Jalen Polk on
06:01this team? Like what's his connection to Jalen Polk? Nothing. So it would have to
06:05be Wolf coming to him and saying, we need this guy. We can't lose him. I promise
06:08you. And I, I, I don't even understand how he would make that argument because
06:12everything we've seen from the guy suggests that he can't, he can't do it. And, and as
06:15we go on and we've talked about how this camp feels relatively drama free. And I
06:20know you were talking about that. I think with Tommy Curran, were you part of that
06:22clip we played earlier? Tommy Curran was talking about it last night, I think on
06:26TV. Okay. It feels like we're back to focusing on the football here. I don't
06:30pay attention to what he says, but that's okay. I understood. Um, but this is a, but
06:34this is a camp that is about football and about getting back to, you know,
06:38actually having games that represent an NFL team as coaching and things are
06:44working for this team again, functioning. I just wonder if we get to a point in this
06:50camp where some of that, you know, sort of the, the juicy salacious stories are
06:55about what's the battle going on in the, in the room between coaches and front
07:00office guys over who makes this team. Because if you want some of those
07:03positional battles to play out, there's going to be a discussion in there in a
07:06battle over who they keep. Oh yeah. And what you're describing is
07:09Vrabel's out here. I'm going to tip the scales all camp long to make poke look
07:14like the guy I think he is, which is he ain't making this team. And all of a sudden
07:17you got Ellie Wolfe being like, no, we got to give him another shot. How does that
07:21play out? I think it's going to go Vrabel's way. I mean, I just, I don't
07:25think that the front off the front office group, um, is going to be able to win
07:30that battle. It's just, it's the new guy's team. And oh, by the way, he brought
07:34in a GM level person in Ryan Cowden to help him out on that front. So where do
07:40you think like his allegiances are going to be? So I think it's going to end up
07:44being kind of obvious to people. I mean, we're not talking about incredibly
07:47talented players at the back end of this receiver depth chart. So it's going to be
07:51obvious, I think to people in terms of who should make the team and who
07:55shouldn't. And I would just say in terms of like those three guys I mentioned
07:57that I wouldn't consider locks, Bourne, Chisholm, Polk, I think I'd pick Bourne
08:01over the three right now, just based on how camp opened today. You know,
08:04Efton Chisholm is out there and he's running around, but he's with the threes.
08:07He's not, you know, Kendra Bourne's still out there playing with Drake May. He's got
08:10experience with Josh McDaniels. He's still a guy who could bring some value to
08:14this offense. So I'm not putting the, as good a spring as Efton Chisholm had, I'm
08:18not, I'm not putting him on the roster just yet. When are you making digs? I'm stunned that
08:23he's out there and a full participant. This is a quick turnaround for a guy who's
08:27on the wrong side of 30. So good for him on that front. Good for his training
08:31staff and his doctors, et cetera, et cetera. Really quick turnaround. I still feel as
08:37though I am, I am way behind the rest of the media horde when it comes to
08:44expectations for this guy. I'm, I'm listening to people on our station every
08:47night. Talk about how Stefan Diggs is going to be a thousand yard receiver. I, I
08:51don't see these guys that question today. I said, do you think he can get do a
08:54thousand yards? They're like, yep, no problem. I'm like, what, what?
08:57I don't, I don't get it. I don't get it. This guy, it's a very difficult injury to
09:01come back from. Number one, last half dozen seasons, there's been one receiver
09:04who the year after tearing his ACL had a thousand yards. It was Chris Godwin. He
09:07was 26. That's Stefan Diggs is about to be that right. By the way, that list, that
09:14list includes guys like Odell. Like that's not like bad players. There's there guys on
09:17that list. Yeah. OBJ that are legit players. Yeah. You know, George Pickens coming back
09:22from call. Like he was up, he was a rookie. Okay. Like, but like these guys weren't
09:26themselves year one coming back. And I thought Stefan Diggs, I asked him, I said,
09:30what are your expectations for yourself? You're a thousand yard guy every year.
09:33He said, I mean, this is just one day I'm excited to be, I thought it was actually a
09:36good answer by him because he is, it sounds like trying to temper expectations. Cause
09:41he's probably in the back of his mind, not sure what he's going to end up with in
09:44terms of numbers. I feel like I have high expectations for him. I said, 800, uh, 75
09:51catches and five scores. I think that's a really, really good season. I agree. Yes,
09:56it would be. I think that'd be great. I'm even a little bit lower than you. I think
09:59I've said 700 ish yards. I think would be a, would be a fine level of production for
10:04a guy in his situation. You just don't see like the last time we saw, and we've seen
10:08two good examples here. Julian Edelman near the end of his career. Yeah. There's his ACL
10:12comes back 2018, lights it up. He also missed the first four games that season
10:17for being, you know, using PE. Right. Okay. So you get back on the field, get back on
10:21the field, however you can get back on the field. No, he was coming back from
10:24something. He ends up winning Superbowl MVP. Yeah. Okay. So that's, that's one
10:28example. Wes Welker's the other in 2010, he tears his ACL at the end of the season,
10:32somehow makes it back for the beginning, has about a 900 yard season that
10:35season. I would just say this, good training for both those guys. I would just say
10:39this, both those guys knew this offense, like the back of their hands, and they
10:43were working with the greatest quarterback of all time. As much as I like Drake
10:47May, and as much as I believe in Josh McDaniels, Stephon Diggs ain't in the same
10:50situation. So to expect him to produce in the same way those guys did, to me, is
10:56unreasonable. I just, I can't see that happening. And I honestly, if you ask people
11:02in the building, I bet they would tell you they would be surprised by that kind of
11:05output that you two believe he's going to have as well. Phil, one more for you. And that
11:09is, what are we watching for on defense in this camp? What should we be looking
11:14for? What's the story there? I'm not sure what it is, quite frankly. To me, it's in
11:19the trenches, because I think we know what they have in the secondary. I think
11:23they've got really good cover corners, and they have experienced versatile
11:27safety. So I think, for this Vrabel defense in particular, fit it very nicely.
11:31Vrabel's going to want to have those guys doing a lot of different things, and
11:34those guys can do a lot of different things. You don't necessarily want to have
11:37any of them living in the post the way Devin McCordy used to, but that's okay.
11:40That's not, generally speaking, what he's asked his safeties to do in the past in
11:43Tennessee. Those guys were in the slot. They were in the box. They were the back
11:46end. They were covering half a field. Up front, to me, is where the questions lie,
11:50and specifically on the edge. So, like today, for Keon White to come around the edge,
11:55and I thought he did have, that was one of those plays, though, where I was like you,
11:58sack, and it happened to be the throw where May pumped it way down the middle of the
12:02field, and it was nearly picked by Jabril Peppers. That, to me, was, he clearly beat,
12:06I think it was Will Campbell. I don't know if there was a tight end out there, too.
12:09I think it was Will Campbell just ran around the edge and was in Drake May's
12:12kitchen. So, that one was an obvious sack to me. If he can become the kind of
12:17player that his skill set would suggest he can become, and if Mike Vrabel can help
12:22him turn into something the way he helped Jadavian Clowney when he was a young
12:25player, the way he helped Whitney Merciless when Whitney Merciless was a young
12:28player in Houston, that, to me, is a huge boon for this Patriots defense because right now,
12:33and I like Harold Landry, too, but just given where he's at in his career and given
12:37what we've seen from Keyon White to this point in his career, which isn't much, you
12:41don't have a surefire pass rush threat on the edge that scares opposing offenses, and
12:47so that, to me, especially when the pads come on, let's wait for the pads to come on
12:50before we make any grand proclamations on these guys. In the one-on-ones and in the
12:5411-on-elevens, I'm watching this pass rush and just see if they can help the coverage
12:58unit, right? They'll help each other, but if you can get a real pass rush, you might be
13:01talking about a first-team all-pro season for Christian Gonzalez because he's getting
13:04his hands on the football because quarterbacks are making bad decisions back there.
13:07There was always this belief, I felt, with Bill that we can scheme pressure, right?
13:14Wasn't there always that belief that sometimes there shouldn't have been?
13:18Sure. What do we need Chandler Jones for?
13:20And they would let, what was the name?
13:22You can scheme pressure, you can't scheme pressure.
13:23Trey Flowers.
13:24Yeah, we've got Trey Flowers and Rob Ninkovich.
13:26Flowers left. When Chandler Jones left, it was, that's okay, because we can scheme pressure.
13:31That was kind of their approach.
13:33I think this team is in that same boat.
13:35They don't have that guy.
13:36I know, I know Keon White, a lot of people have high hopes for him, but they don't have
13:40a bona fide pass rusher on this team.
13:43I think Keon White, to bring up Trey Flowers is a good one because to me, he's like a more
13:48explosive version of Trey Flowers.
13:49I think you'll see him used right over the center at times, the way they use Trey Flowers.
13:53I can remember plays he made in that 2016 Super Bowl against the Falcons where he's aligned
13:57inside and he's just creating all kinds of problems because those guards and centers didn't have
14:01the length to be able to keep him in check.
14:02So I think if you can unlock a little something from a guy who's clearly physically gifted in
14:07white, that will go a long way in adding to this pass rush.
14:10But you're right.
14:10I don't think he's, you know, he's not ever going to be in that, you know, Aiden Hutchinson,
14:14Miles Garrett tier of pass rushers in the NFL.
14:18So can they scheme it up?
14:19I think that's a fair question.
14:20You have a first-year defensive coordinator.
14:22You know, Mike Vrabel's got a lawn on his plate.
14:24I'm sure he'll be able to help out on that side of the ball.
14:25But can you scheme things up the way Belichick used to?
14:27I think that's fair to ask.
14:28That's probably it.
14:29That's probably the thing we try and figure out this preseason and into September.
14:33Phil, great to see you.
14:34Great to see you guys, as always.
14:35I appreciate you.
14:35Bye-bye.
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