00:00The German Chancellor has told the BBC that Russia is a threat to Europe that extends far
00:04beyond Ukraine. Friedrich Mertz warned that peace, freedom and the political order of Europe
00:09could all be affected by Moscow. Chancellor Mertz and the UK Prime Minister yesterday signed a
00:16treaty which they called historic and the first of its kind. He sat down with my colleague Nick
00:20Robinson from BBC Radio 4's Today programme to talk through what motivated Germany to sign this
00:25down. Your defence minister, Boris Pistorius, said to his own people, we must be ready for war by
00:342029. Be clear about that if you could. Does he mean that Germany, that Europe needs to be ready for
00:42a wider war beyond Ukraine? Well, we have to be able to defend ourselves, which is actually not the
00:51case. We are not strong enough. Our army is not strong enough. So that's the reason why we are
00:56spending a lot of money more than ever before after the Cold World War. So that we are spending a lot
01:04of money which we have to borrow. We changed our constitution and we are seeing a big threat
01:10and the threat is Russia. And this threat is not only on Ukraine, it's on our peace, on our freedom,
01:17on the political order of Europe. And that's the reason why we are doing that.
01:22To be clear, you think there's a wider and a longer term threat?
01:25It's a wider and a longer term, far beyond Ukraine. Yes.
01:29You said this US administration is largely indifferent to the fate of Europe. Is Donald Trump indifferent to
01:38the fate of Europe?
01:38Well, at least he is not as clear and as committed as former US presidents were, former US administrations
01:50were. And that's the reason why we are all looking for more independency from American defense.
01:58We know that we have to do more on our own. And we have been free riders in the past.
02:05And the Americans guaranteed our freedom and our security. And they are not willing, understandably,
02:11they are not willing to do that any longer. And they are asking us to do more. And we are doing more.
02:19So in a sense, he was right when he and his vice president, J.D. Vance, and the defense secretary
02:24were pretty rude, let's be honest, about Germany and Britain and others. They were right.
02:29They pushed you into a different position.
02:31They pushed us. And when we had our general elections, this was a week after the Munich
02:38security conference, when we saw J.D. Vance speaking to us in a very open manner, so to
02:46say. And we have to draw our consequences out of that. And we are doing that.
02:51But were you right too? Is he basically, in his core, Donald Trump, indifferent to the fate of Europe?
03:00Or as you've got to know him, have you changed your mind?
03:04No, I have not changed my mind. I'm observing that the Americans for years now, moving away from Europe
03:15and turning to Asia. This, so to say, how is it said, pivot to Asia is happening. And there are other
03:24places in the world the Americans are interested in. And they are seeing themselves in a very hard
03:31competition with China. And that's the reason why they are telling us, take care for your own.
03:37And we are doing it.
03:38Now, Keir Starmer says he wants your help now. And in the treaty that you're signing, there is some
03:43commitment to help. Because pretty much every boat and every engine that is used to transport
03:49migrants across the channel from France to the UK travels through or is held for some time in your
03:57country in Germany. But under the law, people smugglers cannot be prosecuted. How quickly will
04:03you change that?
04:03Well, this is part of our treaty. And we are decided on both sides of the channel to change
04:10that as soon as possible. And that's the reason why we are now laying that down in our agreement
04:15today. And we will do our homework immediately after. And then we will criminalise all these guys who are trying
04:23to bring refugees illegally to our countries.
04:27Changing law takes time. Are we talking years?
04:30Well, we will not need that much time. When we come back to Parliament in September, October,
04:36we will be willing to change that. And the treaty is the legal basis for that.
04:41German Chancellor speaking to my colleague, Nick Robinson. Well, we are waiting to hear the
04:49Chancellor of Germany speak at a press conference that has been called. And this is the members of
04:54the media gathering there to hold that news conference in London in about 15 minutes time.
05:00And we'll, sorry, I beg your pardon, it's Berlin. Let me get my cities right. Let's speak to our
05:04Berlin correspondent, Damien McGuinness. Geography kind of matters in these things, Damien, doesn't it?
05:10Tell us a little bit more about this sit down interview then that we were just hearing a little
05:15bit of, because it's very clear that the Chancellor understands the American position more clearly than
05:23ever. That's right. Yes. Now, what we saw was when he went to Washington, which I think we've heard in
05:30parts of this interview as well, there's a lot of nervousness here in Germany watching how he would
05:35fare with Donald Trump, whether he would have a rocky start and, you know, be insulted, as we've
05:42seen in the past with the meeting with President Zelensky. And so there was a lot of worry here
05:49about where the relationship would go, particularly because Germany's in a tricky position with the
05:53potential heavy tariffs that Donald Trump has threatened. In actual fact, Mr. Mertz appeared to
06:00establish a very good relationship. He's already communicated a lot with Donald Trump on the phone,
06:05done a lot of preparation, that was clear. And he managed to strike a balance between being
06:12relatively firm and very friendly. And I think that's partly because of the sort of personality
06:17he is in terms of, you know, being very happy, having these blokey chats with people. He's also a golf
06:23player and, you know, quite a tough businessman as well. So I think there's a certain bit of mutual
06:28respect. But yes, he's very clear about the situation in Washington. And he's been quite
06:34forthright, really, saying that actually you can't rely fully on the US anymore. And what we're seeing
06:40right now is he's backing that up with actions, namely money, massive spending on defence by using
06:48government debt, by changing the law in order to take on huge amounts of debts, in order to fund
06:53this defence spending. Quite controversial here, but he's pushing it through. So I think we are
06:57seeing a change, not only in rhetoric, but also in the real concrete situation when it comes to defence
07:03here in Germany. Damien, thank you very much. Damien McGuinness in Berlin.
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