00:00and joining me now on this contentious issue is a very special guest Ashok Lavasa former
00:10election commissioner joins me appreciate you're joining us mr. Lavasa what do you believe is the
00:18real issue here the opposition is claiming that this election revision of roles could lead to
00:24disenfranchisement of citizens of eligible citizens simply because of the voluminous documentary
00:30evidence provide being asked for by the EC the EC is claiming this is just an exercise to clean up
00:37the roles and purify them in a way where do you stand sir thank you for having me first of all i
00:45think purification of electoral roles is a legitimate exercise it's a legitimate expectations as far as
00:53the voters are concerned it's also something which the political parties have been demanding
00:58so election commission is fully empowered to carry out purification of electoral roles i think the
01:07controversy arises because of several issues one of them being whether this is the appropriate time
01:16when a state is facing the elections just four months from now or three months from now so whether it is
01:23the appropriate time the second is that the distinction that has been made between pre-2003 and post-2003
01:32is that the procedure that was followed in the past or is there something different that ECI is attempting to do
01:42and i think the other thing which is more fundamental is the adherence to the provisions of article 326
01:53which clearly says that only citizens of india and those who are above 18 years of age who are not otherwise disqualified
02:01they are eligible to vote so i think there are some technical issues underlying all these three things and that probably has created the furor
02:15with due regard sir it's more than just technical isn't it i mean you all yourself have written or been quoted as saying
02:22the electoral rolls do not become necessarily a test for citizenship that it cannot be that if i don't have a particular document i am ineligible to vote
02:33especially if i am already someone who has an aadhar card has has a ration card suddenly i am being told no no this won't do
02:42you'll even have to provide in some instances the birth certificate of my parents now in a state like bihar the concern is people don't have that
02:50it possibly is true of different parts of the country so is it just the suddenness of it all or also the substance of it which is troubling
02:58that that's right so even the substance is technical because you have a situation where under the citizenship act followed in the country
03:13there is no single document that is issued by the state to any citizen which will certify his citizenship that has been the situation since the beginning
03:25and i don't think the situation has fundamentally altered in the last seven decades but the fact is
03:31that the election commission of india which is charged with the responsibility of conducting elections and protecting the rights of people to vote
03:40has been conducting elections has been creating uh electoral rolls for the last seven more than seven decades
03:46at the same time respecting article 326 the difference is that it is authorized to create its own procedure which it has been following
04:01so the point is whether it should continue to follow that time tested procedure
04:06what's your view what's your view what's your view because you know it in the past your aadhaar card was seen
04:12by you know many believed aadhaar card should have been enough the election commission itself uh mr lavasa brought
04:18out epic cards uh this was uh done a short while ago they themselves have held a general election a year ago
04:26and several state elections subsequently so the question is arising why suddenly uh is that what i said
04:33that is what i said the suddenness of this because in itself purification of electoral rolls is a good exercise
04:41it's a desirable exercise because we don't want people to be enrolled in more than one constituency etc
04:47we don't want people who are eligible to be left out etc so but the point is that as the election commission
04:56of india has said that they want to do it in the entire country so i thought that they should have chosen
05:02states which have some time to go for the elections where they would have the facility of explaining to the
05:10people what they're attempting to do what is the procedure that they want to follow is there something new in
05:16the procedure that they have they have now prescribed and then people would have tried to understand and
05:23respond to the election commission's requirement so that's what i said this suddenness of this and the
05:29short time which is available but the other more substantive thing as i said is that in the past the
05:37election commission has given the right to vote to people by creating epic cards by enrolling them
05:45after following a due process which it has prescribed and that process by the way two things basically
05:54one submit a set of documents which election commission has prescribed and secondly subject
06:02yourself to a proof of very physical verification of your ordinary residence so these are the two
06:09two fundamental pillars of ecis satisfaction so far so so does that mean when they suddenly change the
06:16the rules in a way and ask for additional document does it mean that the earlier system of these epic
06:21cards has failed is this the election commission in a way admitting that the electoral rolls have loopholes
06:27no that is exactly my point that if after 2003 say in the case of bihar people have been enrolled by
06:36following a due process and they have also some of them would have voted in general elections in state
06:43assembly elections and today they fail to produce any of the documents which has been prescribed what
06:49what happens to their stakers right and and and there is an element of arbitrariness even when you use 2003
06:56as a cut-off date i mean suddenly it seems that if i'm if i'm uh eligible before 2003 no problem
07:03your uh you know your verification is fine but if i've uh registered post 2003 a question is being brought in
07:10i mean there is an arbitrariness which is very worrying why 2003 yeah so the distinction which
07:16election commission has made in the case of bihar for 2003 is because the last sir was conducted in 2003
07:24but the pointer i think which we all need to understand and i think election commission owes it
07:30to the people of this country to explain whether they in the last previous sirs whether in bihar or in any
07:38other state did they follow this procedure or the procedure which they are now following is different
07:44and if it is different why is it different would you would you support mr lavasa the view that an
07:50aadhaar card should be enough that an aadhaar card is enough or do you believe the fear of duplication of
07:56aadhaar card leads the election commission to say we can't only go by aadhaar cards no as i said look
08:03the aadhaar card in any case even the aadhaar act does not say that it is a proof of citizenship
08:10and it goes back to the point that i was making that there is no single document in the country
08:17under the citizenship act which is issued by the competent authority to tell the citizens that they
08:24can prove their citizenship by using this card so in the absence of that election commission which
08:30is charged with the responsibility of enrolling voters and conducting elections they have devised
08:35their own procedure i mean you go back in time in 1951 when the first election was held who had
08:43citizenship documents but and a voters list was created a electoral rule was created and therefore
08:51the election commission has the authority to invent its procedures it is not inconsistent with any
09:00existing law so so what they have been doing in the last seven decades so what would you suggest given
09:06this controversy if you were an election commissioner today what would you suggest you keep this process
09:11on hold allow the elections to take place and try or at least at the very least call a meeting of all
09:18the parties to la specific concerns or push the date by which you want this exercise complete many believe
09:25that the short duration that you've given that the exercise to be complete by july 25th is simply bizarre
09:31and ridiculous rajdeep i think all the options that you suggested should be tried you should have a
09:37meeting with the political parties explain to them what is your purpose what is it that you are trying to
09:43reach the achieve and if indeed it is a feeling of the field functionaries and the political parties that
09:50this exercise cannot be satisfactorily completed in the given short time then pause it and do it later
09:59because after all the electoral roll was published as recently as january 2025 that's right and frequently
10:07there is a procedure for updating the electoral roll as per the representation of people's act and the
10:13legislation of voters rules so i think all those procedures are there people have voted on the basis of
10:19an existing electoral roll now i just want to point out rajdeep that theoretically let us see what will
10:28happen to those who fail to submit the documents to establish their claim what will be their fate they will
10:38not be able to vote that is one but by inference are they not citizens and if they are not citizens who
10:46will determine their citizenship we already had an experience in assam where the voters list was created
10:55doubtful now till this day after so many years it is not known what has what is the fate of those who
11:04are put put in the d voters list except that when they were included in the d voters they could not vote
11:11but 20 years down the line we don't know what is the fate whether the state has been able to determine
11:18their status and whether they have got back their status as citizens so i think these are very critical
11:24issues and we need to discuss them with all the stakeholders and take a very well considered
11:30calm view in the matter by which you achieve the purpose of purifying your roles but at the same time
11:38not at the risk of disenfranchising people who already have existed in your electoral rules right let me
11:45therefore conclude by asking you and this is a more direct question the opposition is saying that all
11:51the that this exercise is being done at behest of the government in power with an eye on bihar and
11:58more crucially later on bengal mamata banerji of west bengal chief minister says this is nrc from the
12:04back door this is an attempt to disenfranchise many of the poor minorities obcs and the general
12:10impression that the ec is acting as the rubber stamp of the modi government how do you respond to that you've
12:17been part of this organization is there a serious is this charge rahul gandhi's even gone further
12:23virtually claiming that decisions taken by the election commission are basically decisions mandated
12:30to them by the modi government well politicians are entitled to say anything there is no way in which you
12:37can judge the intention of this why a decision was taken so i don't want to get into that area but is there a
12:45perception problem does the election commission face a perception problem when such serious charges
12:50are made all the more making it important that the ec allays these fears you see as they say that you
12:58should not judge the outcome of the exercise till the exercise is complete that is one the other is you
13:06should not even try to read motives in something which a constitutional body has decided but the fact
13:15is that in the implementation of the decision that has been taken there are practical issues and there
13:23are conceptual issues so those issues need to be sorted out for example let me give you one more example
13:30that if it is said in the notification of 24th of june that those who have submitted their enumeration forms
13:39by 25th of july their names will be appear they will appear in the draft electoral rules now at the same time
13:47the instructions also say that the form needs to be duly filled accompanied by self-attested forms so
13:56is is is there clarity that only forms which will be accompanied by those documents will be accepted
14:05and all those who do not submit the electoral the attested forms their names will not appear in the draft
14:12electoral rules further if if indeed as the advertisement which has appeared yesterday in some papers that
14:21that those who just signed the enumeration forms those forms will get accepted but does it therefore mean that
14:31they will not be asked to produce the relevant documents subsequently so i think these are all open
14:38questions until these questions are satisfactorily answered right doubts will linger you see in fact mr
14:46lavassa has said there have been no changes in the instruction virtually suggesting that the
14:50advertisements put out in the papers is not what the ec uh intends to do with this exercise so there's a lot
14:56of confusion you're saying we need clarity i will ask you one more time do you believe and maybe a yes or
15:03no answer do you believe that the election commission of india faces a credibility crisis in its supposed
15:10status status as a neutral empire well i would not use the word crisis but i would certainly they say that
15:22there is a need to establish open and credible channels of communication okay okay i think you've gone as
15:31far as you could in raising vital questions that i do hope that the election commission of india will answer the
15:37the public has a huge faith in the idea of free and fair elections in this country all the more
15:44important for the election commission to be totally transparent in any exercise it conducts
15:51ashok lavassa for joining me on the show thank you so much thank you thank you very much
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