In an exclusive interview with India Today's Consulting Editor Rajdeep Sardesai, former Election Commissioner Ashok Lavasa talked about Bihar poll roll revision being carried out by the Election Commission and the controversy over it.
00:00and joining me now on this contentious issue is a very special guest Ashok Lavasa former
00:10election commissioner joins me appreciate you're joining us mr. Lavasa what do you believe is the
00:18real issue here the opposition is claiming that this election revision of roles could lead to
00:24disenfranchisement of citizens of eligible citizens simply because of the voluminous documentary
00:30evidence provide being asked for by the EC the EC is claiming this is just an exercise to clean up
00:37the roles and purify them in a way where do you stand sir thank you for having me first of all i
00:45think purification of electoral roles is a legitimate exercise it's a legitimate expectations as far as
00:53the voters are concerned it's also something which the political parties have been demanding
00:58so election commission is fully empowered to carry out purification of electoral roles i think the
01:07controversy arises because of several issues one of them being whether this is the appropriate time
01:16when a state is facing the elections just four months from now or three months from now so whether it is
01:23the appropriate time the second is that the distinction that has been made between pre-2003 and post-2003
01:32is that the procedure that was followed in the past or is there something different that ECI is attempting to do
01:42and i think the other thing which is more fundamental is the adherence to the provisions of article 326
01:53which clearly says that only citizens of india and those who are above 18 years of age who are not otherwise disqualified
02:01they are eligible to vote so i think there are some technical issues underlying all these three things and that probably has created the furor
02:15with due regard sir it's more than just technical isn't it i mean you all yourself have written or been quoted as saying
02:22the electoral rolls do not become necessarily a test for citizenship that it cannot be that if i don't have a particular document i am ineligible to vote
02:33especially if i am already someone who has an aadhar card has has a ration card suddenly i am being told no no this won't do
02:42you'll even have to provide in some instances the birth certificate of my parents now in a state like bihar the concern is people don't have that
02:50it possibly is true of different parts of the country so is it just the suddenness of it all or also the substance of it which is troubling
02:58that that's right so even the substance is technical because you have a situation where under the citizenship act followed in the country
03:13there is no single document that is issued by the state to any citizen which will certify his citizenship that has been the situation since the beginning
03:25and i don't think the situation has fundamentally altered in the last seven decades but the fact is
03:31that the election commission of india which is charged with the responsibility of conducting elections and protecting the rights of people to vote
03:40has been conducting elections has been creating uh electoral rolls for the last seven more than seven decades
03:46at the same time respecting article 326 the difference is that it is authorized to create its own procedure which it has been following
04:01so the point is whether it should continue to follow that time tested procedure
04:06what's your view what's your view what's your view because you know it in the past your aadhaar card was seen
04:12by you know many believed aadhaar card should have been enough the election commission itself uh mr lavasa brought
04:18out epic cards uh this was uh done a short while ago they themselves have held a general election a year ago
04:26and several state elections subsequently so the question is arising why suddenly uh is that what i said
04:33that is what i said the suddenness of this because in itself purification of electoral rolls is a good exercise
04:41it's a desirable exercise because we don't want people to be enrolled in more than one constituency etc
04:47we don't want people who are eligible to be left out etc so but the point is that as the election commission
04:56of india has said that they want to do it in the entire country so i thought that they should have chosen
05:02states which have some time to go for the elections where they would have the facility of explaining to the
05:10people what they're attempting to do what is the procedure that they want to follow is there something new in
05:16the procedure that they have they have now prescribed and then people would have tried to understand and
05:23respond to the election commission's requirement so that's what i said this suddenness of this and the
05:29short time which is available but the other more substantive thing as i said is that in the past the
05:37election commission has given the right to vote to people by creating epic cards by enrolling them
05:45after following a due process which it has prescribed and that process by the way two things basically
05:54one submit a set of documents which election commission has prescribed and secondly subject
06:02yourself to a proof of very physical verification of your ordinary residence so these are the two
06:09two fundamental pillars of ecis satisfaction so far so so does that mean when they suddenly change the
06:16the rules in a way and ask for additional document does it mean that the earlier system of these epic
06:21cards has failed is this the election commission in a way admitting that the electoral rolls have loopholes
06:27no that is exactly my point that if after 2003 say in the case of bihar people have been enrolled by
06:36following a due process and they have also some of them would have voted in general elections in state
06:43assembly elections and today they fail to produce any of the documents which has been prescribed what
06:49what happens to their stakers right and and and there is an element of arbitrariness even when you use 2003
06:56as a cut-off date i mean suddenly it seems that if i'm if i'm uh eligible before 2003 no problem
07:03your uh you know your verification is fine but if i've uh registered post 2003 a question is being brought in
07:10i mean there is an arbitrariness which is very worrying why 2003 yeah so the distinction which
07:16election commission has made in the case of bihar for 2003 is because the last sir was conducted in 2003
07:24but the pointer i think which we all need to understand and i think election commission owes it
07:30to the people of this country to explain whether they in the last previous sirs whether in bihar or in any
07:38other state did they follow this procedure or the procedure which they are now following is different
07:44and if it is different why is it different would you would you support mr lavasa the view that an
07:50aadhaar card should be enough that an aadhaar card is enough or do you believe the fear of duplication of
07:56aadhaar card leads the election commission to say we can't only go by aadhaar cards no as i said look
08:03the aadhaar card in any case even the aadhaar act does not say that it is a proof of citizenship
08:10and it goes back to the point that i was making that there is no single document in the country
08:17under the citizenship act which is issued by the competent authority to tell the citizens that they
08:24can prove their citizenship by using this card so in the absence of that election commission which
08:30is charged with the responsibility of enrolling voters and conducting elections they have devised
08:35their own procedure i mean you go back in time in 1951 when the first election was held who had
08:43citizenship documents but and a voters list was created a electoral rule was created and therefore
08:51the election commission has the authority to invent its procedures it is not inconsistent with any
09:00existing law so so what they have been doing in the last seven decades so what would you suggest given
09:06this controversy if you were an election commissioner today what would you suggest you keep this process
09:11on hold allow the elections to take place and try or at least at the very least call a meeting of all
09:18the parties to la specific concerns or push the date by which you want this exercise complete many believe
09:25that the short duration that you've given that the exercise to be complete by july 25th is simply bizarre
09:31and ridiculous rajdeep i think all the options that you suggested should be tried you should have a
09:37meeting with the political parties explain to them what is your purpose what is it that you are trying to
09:43reach the achieve and if indeed it is a feeling of the field functionaries and the political parties that
09:50this exercise cannot be satisfactorily completed in the given short time then pause it and do it later
09:59because after all the electoral roll was published as recently as january 2025 that's right and frequently
10:07there is a procedure for updating the electoral roll as per the representation of people's act and the
10:13legislation of voters rules so i think all those procedures are there people have voted on the basis of
10:19an existing electoral roll now i just want to point out rajdeep that theoretically let us see what will
10:28happen to those who fail to submit the documents to establish their claim what will be their fate they will
10:38not be able to vote that is one but by inference are they not citizens and if they are not citizens who
10:46will determine their citizenship we already had an experience in assam where the voters list was created
10:55doubtful now till this day after so many years it is not known what has what is the fate of those who
11:04are put put in the d voters list except that when they were included in the d voters they could not vote
11:11but 20 years down the line we don't know what is the fate whether the state has been able to determine
11:18their status and whether they have got back their status as citizens so i think these are very critical
11:24issues and we need to discuss them with all the stakeholders and take a very well considered
11:30calm view in the matter by which you achieve the purpose of purifying your roles but at the same time
11:38not at the risk of disenfranchising people who already have existed in your electoral rules right let me
11:45therefore conclude by asking you and this is a more direct question the opposition is saying that all
11:51the that this exercise is being done at behest of the government in power with an eye on bihar and
11:58more crucially later on bengal mamata banerji of west bengal chief minister says this is nrc from the
12:04back door this is an attempt to disenfranchise many of the poor minorities obcs and the general
12:10impression that the ec is acting as the rubber stamp of the modi government how do you respond to that you've
12:17been part of this organization is there a serious is this charge rahul gandhi's even gone further
12:23virtually claiming that decisions taken by the election commission are basically decisions mandated
12:30to them by the modi government well politicians are entitled to say anything there is no way in which you
12:37can judge the intention of this why a decision was taken so i don't want to get into that area but is there a
12:45perception problem does the election commission face a perception problem when such serious charges
12:50are made all the more making it important that the ec allays these fears you see as they say that you
12:58should not judge the outcome of the exercise till the exercise is complete that is one the other is you
13:06should not even try to read motives in something which a constitutional body has decided but the fact
13:15is that in the implementation of the decision that has been taken there are practical issues and there
13:23are conceptual issues so those issues need to be sorted out for example let me give you one more example
13:30that if it is said in the notification of 24th of june that those who have submitted their enumeration forms
13:39by 25th of july their names will be appear they will appear in the draft electoral rules now at the same time
13:47the instructions also say that the form needs to be duly filled accompanied by self-attested forms so
13:56is is is there clarity that only forms which will be accompanied by those documents will be accepted
14:05and all those who do not submit the electoral the attested forms their names will not appear in the draft
14:12electoral rules further if if indeed as the advertisement which has appeared yesterday in some papers that
14:21that those who just signed the enumeration forms those forms will get accepted but does it therefore mean that
14:31they will not be asked to produce the relevant documents subsequently so i think these are all open
14:38questions until these questions are satisfactorily answered right doubts will linger you see in fact mr
14:46lavassa has said there have been no changes in the instruction virtually suggesting that the
14:50advertisements put out in the papers is not what the ec uh intends to do with this exercise so there's a lot
14:56of confusion you're saying we need clarity i will ask you one more time do you believe and maybe a yes or
15:03no answer do you believe that the election commission of india faces a credibility crisis in its supposed
15:10status status as a neutral empire well i would not use the word crisis but i would certainly they say that
15:22there is a need to establish open and credible channels of communication okay okay i think you've gone as
15:31far as you could in raising vital questions that i do hope that the election commission of india will answer the
15:37the public has a huge faith in the idea of free and fair elections in this country all the more
15:44important for the election commission to be totally transparent in any exercise it conducts
15:51ashok lavassa for joining me on the show thank you so much thank you thank you very much
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