00:00The government believes it has a solution to the small boats crisis.
00:04Yes, there are proposed plans for a one-in, one-out return agreement with France,
00:09where migrants crossing the Channel could be prevented from claiming asylum in the UK,
00:13being sent back to France.
00:16Well, the deal would see France taking back migrants who've crossed illegally,
00:19while the UK agrees to accept a comparable number of asylum seekers from France.
00:23So a bit of a migrant swap.
00:25Well, joining us now is the former Director General of Border Force, Tony Smith.
00:30Tony, I mean, it's a slightly innovative plan.
00:33Do you think it would work?
00:35I'm really nervous about it, Tom.
00:36If I'm honest, I shouldn't be, I suppose, because I spent a lot of time in the Home Office myself
00:41trying to get the French to take asylum seekers back.
00:43And ever since then, I've been saying that the best deal would be if we could get a safe third with France.
00:47But my worry about this is in the detail, Tom.
00:50What is the deal that we're doing with France?
00:53Who are these people that we're going to be taking in in return?
00:56Are these people that aren't currently allowed into the UK?
01:00So are we opening the door to people that we don't have to?
01:03And in terms of the returns agreement, are we turning them back, you know,
01:07taking them back on the ship straight away in the Channel?
01:09Or are they coming ashore?
01:11If they are, are we going to detain them?
01:12How long, how many of them will go back?
01:14I've got so many questions swirling around in my head, Tom, about this,
01:18that my optimism, I'm afraid, has been severely dented.
01:21I suppose we need to see the detail, don't we, when the actual announcement comes out.
01:25But at the moment, I'm not encouraged.
01:26Tony, as the former Director General of Border Force,
01:31should you not be the type of person who's being consulted on all of this?
01:35I mean, if you've got all these questions, I'm sure you could be there, you know, trying to nail it down.
01:40Well, we, yeah, I run my own border security company these days.
01:44So, you know, we have been offering help to the Home Office if they want advice on options,
01:50because, you know, many of the people on my book's been around the block,
01:53including me, on a lot of this stuff before and a lot of the narratives that's coming out.
01:57And I'm afraid some of the negotiations that are underway, I'm not entirely sure are going to stick.
02:01So, yes, I am very happy to help out if asked,
02:05but one would need to be invited into the tent if you like to help them.
02:09I mean, I think it is right that we're speaking to the French.
02:12I would say that we've always been speaking to the French about these things.
02:15And in my time, we had a very good operational relationship with the French.
02:18But this is high politics, you see.
02:20The French have got enough asylum seekers of their own, more than enough.
02:24And so Macron has to sell this to his people.
02:26He would say, well, why would we start taking people back from the UK
02:29when we've got enough problems of our own?
02:32And the only thing he can sell, from their point of view,
02:34would be we're going to be exporting more people to the UK.
02:37And I'm really, really worried about our negotiating position
02:40and how good is our negotiating team?
02:43And are we getting all of the facts presenting to us?
02:46I suspect negotiation is still underway now.
02:48But my worry is, because there's so much desperation around this, isn't there,
02:52now in government about trying to get a grip of this,
02:55that we may sell out on a deal that we don't need to.
03:00That's my worry.
03:01And so I'm really quite nervous about what we're going to hear.
03:04But let's wait and see.
03:06Yeah.
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