00:00Is J.K. Rowling an extremist, radicalised TERF?
00:05It's extraordinarily patronising to suggest that a woman who's created whole new magical worlds from her own imagination
00:12has to be radicalised by other people in order to form her own views.
00:16And that in itself I find extremely patronising.
00:19And, you know, a man may think that women don't have our own rich inner life and form her own political views,
00:25but we do, as Nana's just demonstrated.
00:28But secondly, there's nothing radical about believing that men and women are material realities
00:34and sometimes in law, in policy, in life, that matters.
00:38That's her position. It's a very common, in fact, it's a majority position.
00:42There's nothing radical about it.
00:44James Mathewson, is she radicalised in your view?
00:49Yes, in my opinion, she is.
00:51Unfortunately, what we've seen with J.K. Rowling is a pretty sad story.
00:55I mean, people of my generation, my age, were hugely impacted by the Harry Potter books and later the films.
01:02I grew up in a town which was transformed by Harry Potter because the first two films were filmed there.
01:09So I know the impact that J.K. Rowling's had.
01:12And J.K. Rowling could have done so much more.
01:14She could have been so much better.
01:16For our generation, I'm afraid, you know, you say it's the majority view, but not in my generation,
01:21because she's completely let down everybody who supported those books and who supported...
01:27So precisely, James, what's your issue with her?
01:29Precisely.
01:30What's she said or done which hurts her so much?
01:32Yeah.
01:32It's the complete disdain with which she's shown an entire community.
01:36And she's done it in a very...
01:38You know, we talk about the opinions...
01:40In what way?
01:41In what way, James?
01:42Specifically?
01:42Be specific, James, because you said that it's to disdain.
01:45What has she done that's disdainful, as it were?
01:48It's the way that she's mocked and the way that she's come about in a very cruel manner when she talks about trans people.
01:53Well, what has she said?
01:54What has she said?
01:55She's been doing this now for many years on social media predominantly.
01:58But she's started with this, you know, what we'd call gender-critical views, but has just gone rapidly down this pipeline, unfortunately, of this online space of, you know, so-called TERFs, whatever you want to call them.
02:12Whatever you want to call them.
02:13Hold on, hold on.
02:14TERFs is a reference to someone like me who believes in biological reality and someone like Fiona.
02:19Fiona, your thoughts?
02:22Well, J.K. Rowling has done a damn sight more than the four of us put together for people in the world,
02:27and especially for children and increasing literacy, but also for women and girls who are victims of male violence.
02:33She's given away millions of pounds.
02:34She co-founded the charity Lumos.
02:36So I think her legacy is pretty secure.
02:38I think she has done an awful lot more good than anyone could have expected.
02:43So that's the first thing.
02:45She has then had the courage to speak up and defend women and girls when we have felt unable to do so for ourselves.
02:53Now, I'm speaking up, but a lot of people, including the co-founder, the founder of our organization, Sex Matters, have lost their jobs for speaking up in defense of their own legal rights.
03:03And they are legal rights.
03:04It is entirely lawful and appropriate to recognize that sometimes we can't pretend that someone has changed sex because it matters to us.
03:13So it's extraordinary to criticize J.K. Rowling.
03:17She's gone further than most of our politicians have done in daring to speak truth in defense of the defenseless.
03:24Can I ask you, James, what is a woman?
03:28But that's...
03:29No, no, no, I'm just wondering.
03:30No, no, well, it's just a simple question.
03:32I don't do...
03:33Well, no, no, no, I'm just asking, what is a woman then?
03:35Do you believe that a man can become a woman and a woman can become a man?
03:40Yes, because man and woman is a gender...
03:42So what is a woman?
03:44So what is a woman?
03:44There is male and there is female, which is sex.
03:46This is the problem that I think a lot of you have, unfortunately.
03:49Well, I think the problem is you can't say what a woman is.
03:52If a man can become a woman and a woman can become a man, then what is a woman?
03:56No, no, you're not even letting me speak, right?
03:57What I'm talking about here is we've got gender, we've got sex, okay?
04:02Sex is a scientific reality.
04:03You've got male and female, okay?
04:05And then you've got gender, which are social constructs.
04:08Gender is a social construct.
04:10Many people now who identify as non-binary, for example, who don't feel in either gender
04:15and gendered terms.
04:17So that's a completely separate issue.
04:19No, no, gender stereotypes are a construct.
04:22Male and female is what you're talking about.
04:24And that's obviously a completely separate issue.
04:26But the whole point here is, and what I'm talking about, is the disdain with which J.K.
04:31Rowland, the disdain with the likes of sex matters, the way they have treated the trans
04:36community, right? Because let me tell you now, because we talk about the reality, people's
04:39opinions and feelings and all the rest of it, and that's fine, right?
04:43I'm a feminist. I believe in women's rights. I believe in women's safety.
04:46But the problem here is we are focusing on an absolute minority of people who have no,
04:52you know, when you look at it in the round, who have no threat to women, you know, statistically
04:57have no threat to women in the way that, you don't, the threat to women, the threat to
05:02women, sorry, sorry, can I just say, no, I did listen to you, no, I did listen, but I'm
05:06just going to say this. The threat to women isn't necessarily that small minority. The
05:10threat to women is women losing their rights as women for single-sex spaces and things like
05:16that. Because as you said yourself, as you said yourself, as you said yourself, that it
05:21is a biological reality. So you understand the biological reality. And whether a man
05:25dresses up as a woman or not, a man is still a man. And the reason why the spaces are separate
05:30is because women are actually... No, listen, this is the whole problem, is that you say
05:37man dressing up as a woman. Yes. That's despicable, Nana. Well, it's the truth. That is not the
05:42reality. What else? Nana, do you have any trans friends? I have plenty of. Do you mix with
05:49trans people? I mix with trans people. I mix with all people. Listen, we've got to
05:53go, James. We want to talk about this and we can spend more time on it. But unfortunately,
05:57we have some breaking news. Fiona McLean, very briefly, Fiona, finish with you. I think James
06:01has just demonstrated why men can't be feminists, because he's not centering women. He's centering
06:06this tiny number of men who claim to be women instead of the rest of us. Yeah, great point.
06:10I have to say that there's nothing that makes me cringe more than a man who says they're
06:13a feminist. I mean, to me, it's a bit weird.
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