00:00What is your pick? How is Pakistan playing in this whole balance of powers of thought?
00:07Ultimately, I think Pakistan is acting insincerely to further its own interests.
00:14Look, Pakistan is a terrorist state.
00:17It's scared to death that it's going to be held accountable for its terrorism.
00:23Traditionally, what Pakistan tries to do is embrace the United States in some sort of diplomatic partnership,
00:32pretend that they are actually on the same page as the United States in order to win immunity
00:39and also to gain hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars.
00:45I wouldn't be surprised if that is what Asim Munir is not doing now.
00:52Right. Now, President Trump and the CENTCOM chief have recently declared Pakistan
01:01as U.S.'s close ally against tackling international terrorism.
01:06But U.S. on the same side has also apparently felicitated Pakistan
01:10in getting financial aid from the World Bank and the IMF.
01:15How is all this playing out?
01:16Remember that during World War II, Franklin Delano Roosevelt talked about Joseph Stalin as a close ally.
01:24This is diplomatic rhetoric. It's not reality.
01:29Everyone sees Pakistan for what it is, except perhaps for Donald Trump.
01:34So, while Donald Trump and the commander of U.S. Central Command may whisper sweet nothings into Pakistan's ear,
01:45it's because they want something from Pakistan.
01:48What I'm arguing is that nothing which we could gain from Pakistan is worth the price of having Pakistan as an ally.
01:58Right. Now, you said that, you know, the U.S. is seeking some kind of a gain.
02:06What is your how what is your impression? What could that gain be?
02:11Well, when it comes to President Trump reaching out to Pakistan against the backdrop of the Israel-Iran conflict,
02:20what the United States position is now is that Iran needs to surrender its nuclear program completely.
02:32On one hand, this could be a Pakistani interest.
02:36I lived in Iran shortly after the 1998 Pakistan nuclear tests,
02:43and most Iranians at the time thought those tests were directed at Iran itself.
02:50Iran and Pakistan are competitors, even if sometimes they find themselves cooperating.
02:57So is it in Pakistan's interest for Iran to give up its nuclear program?
03:02Yes.
03:03President Trump is probably probably trying to make that case.
03:07If it's in Pakistan's own interest, however, we shouldn't pay Pakistan a single dollar
03:14for achieving what's in Pakistan's own interest.
03:18At the same time, if Iran's nuclear program is going to be eradicated,
03:24it may take infiltration of U.S. forces, special forces, and we may be gaining permission for that.
03:34If we are going to truck out Iran's nuclear supplies, following the conclusion of hostilities,
03:44those supplies need to go somewhere.
03:47And so perhaps there's some discussion that Pakistan could receive those supplies.
03:53Again, what sounds good in a situation room or foreign ministry boardroom, conference room,
04:01doesn't necessarily make sense in reality.
04:05There is no way that Pakistan should be paid for cooperation or should be the recipient of any Iranian nuclear enriched material.
04:17Right.
04:18Not very often do you see a military chief walking into the White House to meet the president here for a presidential lunch.
04:26How do you see all this play out?
04:28Where is this is the Republic of Pakistan, but you don't have the prime minister representing Pakistan.
04:34In fact, you have the army chief walking in.
04:38Well, first of all, President Trump is enamored with generals.
04:44We've known that since his first term.
04:45Second of all, it's reality that Asim Mounir has more power than the prime minister of Pakistan.
04:56That's always been the case with the Pakistani military and specifically with the ISI.
05:03And so Donald Trump is simply reflecting the reality without the diplomatic polish.
05:10But there also may be something more going on here.
05:13Remember that after the September 11th attacks, then Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage supposedly told Pakistan that if it didn't stop its support for Al-Qaeda,
05:31that Pakistan could be subject to even a nuclear attack.
05:36Now, Dick Armitage subsequently denied making those statements.
05:43But everyone knows he actually did threaten Musharraf.
05:48Now, the issue becomes, did Donald Trump tell Asim Mounir that his actions risk a covert response,
06:01which the Pakistanis will not be able to abide, will not like.
06:06In effect, is Donald Trump threatening Pakistan in private simply to allow it to save face in public?
06:16I wouldn't be surprised if there's some element to that in Donald Trump's decision to meet with Pakistan's army chief rather than with a civilian elected prime minister.
06:28Now, this meeting here today, this lunch meeting here today at the White House,
06:35what message is it really putting out or signaling out?
06:39And how is China really taking all of this in, considering China is also very close to Pakistan?
06:44Well, perhaps China's chief interest is that much of the oil, at least 44 percent of it,
06:53which comes out through the Persian Gulf and the Strait of Hormuz, goes to China and Asia.
07:00And therefore, if a conflict continues to disrupt supply through the Strait of Hormuz,
07:07China is the big loser there, not the United States, not Israel.
07:14And so China does have a direct interest in this conflict quieting down.
07:22When it comes to Pakistan itself, however, can you repeat the question?
07:28Sorry.
07:28With this meeting happening here at the White House today, how do you see China, you know,
07:36what kind of a messaging is going out and how are the Chinese interpreting this whole thing?
07:42Well, what I'll stand with what I said with regard to China.
07:48One, two, three.
07:49Pakistan is a Chinese proxy, and it would also not surprise me if some messages were being passed
07:58not only from Trump to Asim Muneer, but if Asim Muneer was delivering certain messages to Trump
08:06from China at the same time.
08:10Pakistan, on one hand, is a terror sponsor.
08:12On the other hand, as prickly as Pakistani officials can be about their sovereignty,
08:20Pakistan is hardly an independent country anymore.
08:23It really is a satrapy, a proxy of China.
08:28And so we need to recognize Pakistan in that context as well.
08:34Now, Prime Minister Modi did have a conversation with President Trump earlier,
08:40and they did talk about, you know, India's, what is India's role here and what is India's
08:47concerns when it comes to Pakistan.
08:49Do you think Donald Trump would put that out to Asim Muneer today?
08:56Certainly Donald Trump might.
08:58The problem with Donald Trump is, number one, he doesn't really have a full sense of history.
09:05Number two, he's prone to moral equivalence.
09:09And number three, he will put other countries' national security below his own desire to win
09:18a Nobel Peace Prize.
09:20And hence, we have rhetoric before the Muneer went in to the White House that Donald Trump
09:27had said that Asim Muneer, Pakistan, was America's best friend, America's friend.
09:35And this effusive rhetoric, which really is insincere and has no meaning.
09:42If Donald Trump doesn't understand that he needs to shred the moral equivalence
09:48and call out who is right and who is wrong, the conflicts in the region,
09:55be it between Pakistan and India, or more broadly, with Israel, Iran, and Pakistan,
10:02are going to become much worse before they become better.
10:07Right.
10:08And finally, your advice to both these three countries, the U.S., Pakistan, and India.
10:15What is your advice to all three countries?
10:17My advice to Pakistan is to cease its terror sponsorship.
10:24It can try to take advantage of this world leader or that world leader,
10:29but ultimately, it's going to pay the price.
10:33Indeed, we already see with Pakistan's own internal discord that it's paid a great price.
10:39When it comes to India, India should not take...
10:46When it comes to India, India alone is responsible for its national security.
10:53It needs to base its national security on reality,
10:57not the promises of temporary leaders or insincere partners.
11:03Donald Trump may want to pretend that he is the fulcrum of negotiations,
11:10but ultimately, the only person who should decide what's good for India
11:16are those within India's government and Prime Minister Modi himself.
11:21When it comes to the United States,
11:23it's important that India recognize Donald Trump alone is not in charge of U.S. policy.
11:30The U.S. Congress is.
11:32And the U.S. Congress, in a bipartisan manner, embraces India.
11:38We are far less willing to let Pakistan's malign and terror-sponsoring behavior slide
11:46than perhaps the White House is.
11:50And therefore, sometimes it's important for India
11:53to simply ignore the advice or the commands they're getting from Washington.
11:58In much the same way that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
12:03ignored the desire of President Trump
12:07and put Israel's own national security first and foremost
12:12with regard to its security calculations against Iran.
12:18Right.
12:19And finally, I'll just take one question,
12:22just separately altogether.
12:25In several ways, you have President Trump trying to convince Iran
12:32to let go of its nuclear weapons.
12:35And here you have Pakistan, who's publicly come out and said
12:38that they support Iran,
12:40and if an Islamic nation needs nuclear powers,
12:43they can rely on Pakistan.
12:45How do you think Donald Trump is going to balance this out?
12:48Well, first of all, Pakistan's position isn't new.
12:52We've heard this ever since Zulfiqar Ali Bhuta,
12:56that if the Jews can have a bomb,
12:59if the Christians can have the bomb,
13:01and the Hindus have the bomb,
13:03then the Muslims have the bomb.
13:05And that's always been Pakistan's mindset
13:07for more than 60 years.
13:10Will Donald Trump recognize that Pakistan is responsible
13:15for the deaths of hundreds of Americans,
13:18including on his watch?
13:20Ultimately, he will become cognizant of that,
13:24even if it has not yet penetrated the Oval Office.
13:28Remember, 90% of the explosive precursors,
13:32which were used in improvised explosive devices
13:36inside Afghanistan came from one of two factories in Pakistan,
13:41and the Pakistani government purposely didn't intercept those.
13:47There is little mood in Washington for Pakistan's nonsense.
13:52And if Pakistan believes that it can fool the United States,
13:57then ultimately Asim Mounir is going to end up
14:01like his Iranian military equivalents
14:06that is either burned to death
14:09or in a smoldering crater spread over hundreds of yards.
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