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00:00The first question I want to ask is, is how are you doing right now?
00:03I mean, I think we're going to have a lot of discussions about especially the experience of you watching back everything that happened on the race.
00:10And now getting to relive, I think, especially how how things ended.
00:13How are the two of you doing at this moment?
00:16I mean, we're doing OK.
00:18Yeah, we're doing OK.
00:20Yeah, it's, you know, talking about, you know, some of the things that we've seen on the show.
00:24It is, you know, hard to look back on some of the things that we've seen, you know.
00:30Relive them.
00:31Yeah.
00:31I mean, it's essentially relive them.
00:33But, you know, it's at the same time kind of a reminder of how far we've come since then.
00:39And so it's always kind of bittersweet, you know, when you look back at the race.
00:42But, yeah, at this point, we're kind of moving forward in this new kind of knowledge that we have.
00:48And yeah.
00:49And also, no one prepares you for the double experience that you have when it comes to doing a show and living all of that.
00:57And then you come home and then you watch it on TV.
00:59And now it's you and the public.
01:01And all that comes with that.
01:04And yeah, no one prepares you for that.
01:06So it's like a double experience.
01:08It's very intense.
01:09Yes.
01:10Well, let's.
01:12Sorry, may I?
01:13No, please go ahead.
01:14But when we saw the first episode, it was very interesting because, you know, you're always looking forward to like, OK, it's going to be on TV.
01:21You've been anticipating this for months.
01:23Yeah.
01:23And you wonder what that first reaction is going to be, because in your mind you have, you know, you want to be liked.
01:30You want to be someone that is liked by the public.
01:32And so it was kind of funny after our premiere party in Los Angeles.
01:36I went to Reddit, you know, because I was very much looking forward to this moment.
01:40Nobody knew that.
01:42I was very surprised to find that people actually did not like me at all.
01:47I was mortified and I just couldn't.
01:51I said, what happened?
01:54So, yeah, it's been it's taken me some time to get used to that discrepancy between, you know, what I see from my perspective and what, you know, somebody from the outside sees.
02:05Especially once there's a final edit.
02:07You only remember certain events.
02:09Oh, my God.
02:09Yeah.
02:10Yeah.
02:10Well, let's rewind back to the beginning of this double experience, because the two of you spoke about how the Amazing Race was so important.
02:16In both of your lives.
02:17I mean, you talked about how it was sort of a form of reconciliation in a manner of speaking.
02:22So then let's talk to me a bit more about your history sort of with the fandom.
02:26And then what made you, especially considering how important the show was for the two of you to decide, we're going to try to be a team for this show that played such an essential role in where we are now.
02:37So I actually introduced her to the race.
02:40So I started watching with my mom all the way back when it was first airing.
02:44You know, it was CBS had the big three, Survivor, Big Brother, Amazing Race.
02:48And I would watch with my mom.
02:49And that's how I got turned on to the show.
02:51And so during COVID, I think it was, right?
02:53Right.
02:54We had just, you know, we had a separation.
02:57I believe the show is discussed a couple of times.
03:00Yeah.
03:00And we decided to get back together.
03:03And we got back together over essentially watching the Amazing Race.
03:07He says it so professionally.
03:09So listen, whenever I would come home, well, now our home, but whenever I would come over and drop off the girls, because that was the hardest part, you know, switching off time with the girls.
03:19Um, he would, he'd be watching the show.
03:23And at first I'm like, what are you watching?
03:25And, oh, he introduced me to the Amazing Race.
03:27So then I would come over the following week and he's watching the show again.
03:30And I'm like, intrigued.
03:31They're doing a really cool challenge.
03:33Oh, I would totally rock that.
03:34And I'm sort of conveniently having it on when she's dropped off the kid.
03:38And we set out this new, like neutral space where we're now talking, but we're not talking about our relationship.
03:44We're talking about a TV show.
03:45Yeah, and pretty soon she's actually sitting down on the couch with me watching it.
03:50And, uh, it happens.
03:52It is so wild.
03:52We reconnect and it's, it's, it's absolutely because of the Amazing Race.
03:56So when we finally got back together, that's the first thing we did.
03:58We applied for the show.
04:00Oh my God.
04:00That was it.
04:01Was that 2021?
04:022021.
04:03Yeah.
04:032021.
04:04Yeah.
04:04So we got on our, on our fourth ride.
04:06We applied four times.
04:07Yes.
04:07Fourth time's the charm.
04:08I love it.
04:09Well, let's fast forward from the beginning to the end of things, because look, it was certainly an up and down journey for the two of you.
04:15Emotionally.
04:16And I'll admit, I was honestly a little surprised of sort of like almost being like the acceptance stage of the grieving process, the two of you by the end.
04:24And where I think you're both sort of understandably like, listen, it was not our day.
04:30That's fine.
04:31You know, Jonathan, you had a lot of expressive of, you know, obviously what Anna was able to overcome in this roadblock and starting all the fears you had coming in.
04:38Talk to me about what was going through both of your heads sort of on that final day, considering from the fact that this was a water-based day to just kind of coming to this conclusion that this thing you were searching for, you were seeking out for so long, just wasn't going to happen.
04:52You know what it was?
04:53It was like, you know, we, for when we went on the race, the goal was never like to win.
04:58I mean, that was certainly in the back of our minds.
05:00You did probably 2 million dollars then.
05:01I did probably 2 million dollars then.
05:02Our immediate goal was just to get to the final three.
05:05So you see a lot of tension as we get closer and closer to the final three, because the stress level goes way up.
05:11So you see something, you know, happen in the 10th leg and then the 11th, that's because the stress level is just rising.
05:18And then when we get to the 12th leg, I feel like I could finally let go.
05:21And so it's sort of weird when I'm on that final leg, I have this sort of peace about me.
05:26And yeah, but, you know, once we got to that roadblock, obviously things came crashing down.
05:32But it's interesting because I remember you telling Phil, you know, something along the lines, like on the mat, when everybody's there, like, you know, I feel like even with perfect navigation, this just wasn't the leg that was meant for us to win.
05:45Like, and I can now find peace with that because obviously it wasn't meant to be.
05:49Even with that, we weren't going to win.
05:52Yeah, you just have to accept it, you know, and, you know, I sometimes would ask myself this question.
05:58Is it better to lose a close race where you just barely like lose by like two, three seconds?
06:03Or would you rather lose in a blah?
06:04And I think for sure I would have preferred to lose the way we did when I just knew that there was nothing that we could have done, given her lack of experience in the water to win.
06:13So it helps me accept it, you know?
06:16Yeah.
06:16Yeah, Anna, what was it like from your perspective, having to face a massive fear of yours, so head on with a million dollars on the line?
06:26And, I mean, it was terrifying.
06:30Before every leg, but especially before this leg, you go over what ifs, right?
06:35You start developing some sort of like sense of what would we do in whatever situation.
06:41And there's usually like some, or at least based on all the seasons that we've watched, there's usually ever like, like a sports related roadblock or a task that requires balls, which I am absolutely horrible at.
06:55Or there is, I don't know, some type of a center, something that's super like physical.
07:01Physical.
07:01And so when we get to this roadblock, and it says who wants to go above and beyond, and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, we're going to get in a helicopter.
07:08Oh my gosh, we're going to, it's going to be parasailing.
07:11That's, I think, what we were all saying.
07:12Yeah, we thought for sure it was parasailing.
07:14Even Han had mentioned something, like I thought it was also something that required us to get super up high.
07:18And the problem is, you know, it's this really extreme sort of puzzle.
07:22We have no frame of reference of what this thing even means.
07:26So we read flyboarding, and it's like, what is this?
07:29I don't even know what this is, so it's just like, oh.
07:31But something that happens in the race, again, you're so driven by adrenaline and focus.
07:36You accept really quick the fear.
07:40You accept it, and you have to tackle it.
07:42Just got to get it done.
07:42And you just got to get it done.
07:44So in my head, I'm thinking, I am terrified, but I cannot be terrified right now.
07:47I just need to do my best.
07:50And that's essentially what I did, but it was the hardest thing I've ever done.
07:56And re-watching it was honestly the most difficult.
08:01I'm pretty sure I was in it.
08:02It was crying last night when we watched it.
08:04Yeah, it was so hard for both of us.
08:07But like I said on the show, I'm glad that she did that.
08:10You know, I thought it was a great, great moment for her on the show.
08:14And I think that's something that we can at least take that from it.
08:17You know what I mean?
08:17I was just proud that I didn't take a penalty.
08:19I thought, yeah, you heard me when she came back.
08:21I said, did you take a penalty?
08:22I wasn't sure.
08:23They were set up so far from the score.
08:25And I was gone for one hour after Jack left.
08:28Oh, wow.
08:29It was a very big gap.
08:30I mean, it was.
08:32And that's why I am devastated, because I just know that was the moment where we lost a million dollars.
08:38Well, that's exactly.
08:41At the end of it all.
08:42Now, look, we could do an entire separate interview, even recapping sort of beat by beat many of the emotional lows that were hit by the two of you over the course of this.
08:53And, you know, you two have done, I think, such a great job summating a lot of the stuff you were going through in individual moments individually as well on your YouTube channel.
09:02But trying to sort of contain it all within one sort of general question, you know, again, a lot of the behaviors that we were seeing that you were all seeing back was this idea of Jonathan, either you shutting down or getting angry at the circumstances that you felt were being put upon you.
09:18And for lack of a better term, kind of taking it out or projecting it onto Anna.
09:23So talk to me a bit, try to verbalize for me a bit, like, was it a commonality in terms of behavior?
09:28What was going through your head during those moments?
09:31I how can I describe it?
09:33So when I look back at it, what what I see and what I from what I know now, it's almost as if you don't know what's happening in your head.
09:42For a regular person or I'm sorry, I shouldn't say a neurotypical person, you have a good sense of the emotions that are coming through your mind at any given time.
09:50But for me, it's just it's it's almost impossible to make sense of the emotions because they're just so powerful in that moment.
09:59And so oftentimes I would just, you know, unleash that emotion on her.
10:05And that was, you know, obviously wrong.
10:08Close proximity, unfortunately.
10:09Yeah.
10:10It's just it's so impossible to describe to someone that doesn't live this experience.
10:16And that's what I think is it's been so hard for people that that see it.
10:19You say, OK, he has autism, but what does that have to do with anything?
10:22And I think an important distinction is that I was undiagnosed and I had no tools.
10:28I had I didn't know what was happening with me.
10:30And if I could just I wish I could just put people in my shoes in that moment so they could understand just how difficult it is to be in that in that moment.
10:41And it's very hard to do.
10:43I mean, it took me so long, even going through therapy and even just doing tons of research and reading just for me to fully understand.
10:52And once I I mean, I still don't fully understand.
10:55And, you know, there's so much more communication now because he's able to use his words now with it.
11:01He has a method because I'm aware it starts with awareness.
11:05Now that knowing I just know, like, oh, that that's something happening in a different angle.
11:10Yeah.
11:10Just the awareness itself is so important.
11:12Right.
11:12But now that I am learning again, it's just like the fog was lifted.
11:17And in so many things made sense, even conflicts that we've had in the past, even when we separate it, it was always misunderstandings, miscommunications.
11:27We were we were able to backtrace almost all of our previous conflicts and trace that back to like autism and not understanding each other.
11:34It's the closest thing to a magic bullet for our relationship is there ever was.
11:40And so it's made a radical difference in our lives in just this very short time span.
11:45There was another analogy you used in the mat to describe us when Phil asked, like, essentially, like, what's going to happen with you two?
11:51And you were like, we are like two puzzle pieces that don't quite fit together.
11:57Yeah.
11:57For whatever reason, God put us in the situation and we're making it work.
12:01And now we know that is a fact.
12:04We are two puzzle pieces are never going to fit together because we are so different.
12:08His brain works different than mine.
12:10And I guess talk to me more about this process, because, you know, when you get this diagnosis, did it come as a result of like after the race?
12:18You think about like, OK, there were some behaviors I exhibited that I want to look more into.
12:23Exactly.
12:24So telling him, you need to do something about.
12:26Yeah.
12:26So she started got back.
12:27She got me, you know, nonviolent communication.
12:29That's the first thing she bought.
12:31Here, you need to read this.
12:32And that's how it started.
12:34But, you know, it was very interesting.
12:37So we got back from the show in May, right?
12:39Was it May or June?
12:40Yeah.
12:40Sorry, June.
12:40May, June.
12:41And so, you know, when you get back, you take time and you go through that grieving process and you get over losing.
12:48And then there's a sort of lull and sort of you're in this sort of catatonic state where you just are just kind of numb to the whole thing.
12:56And then in October, I believe it was, she sent us an email and she said she gives us the air date for the show.
13:03And it's like suddenly it's like it just becomes very real in that moment.
13:07Oh, my God.
13:08All of my worst moments are about to be broadcast.
13:12For millions to see.
13:13For millions to see.
13:14And so I panic.
13:16This is October.
13:17And the first thing I do, it's very interesting.
13:20I decide, well, I realize I had a lot of bad moments.
13:24And so I want to go back to the race and look at some of the notorious people that have been on the race who have had a lot of bad moments.
13:31And so I look at season 23 with Travis.
13:33I look at the season with, I believe his name was Nick.
13:36And I'm trying to find commonalities between these people and me in order to better understand, like, why was I behaving in this way?
13:43And what I was struggling with was finding someone that I could just say, yeah, well, that's me or that's me.
13:49But I couldn't really find anyone that really, really matched up with me perfectly.
13:54And so at that point, I started to explore this.
13:57I think you actually brought it up.
14:00Well, this is the thing.
14:01His family has always had a suspicion.
14:04And I don't know.
14:06It was just never addressed.
14:07It was never even.
14:09They never bothered.
14:11We almost considered it an inside joke that I was autistic.
14:14A hundred percent.
14:15And so I never took that seriously because that's just my family's sense of humor.
14:18You know, so I think at this point, we start to say, maybe there's something to this.
14:23Yeah.
14:24And so I go online and I take, I do some reading and I take this test.
14:29It's called the AQ.
14:31And that stands for autism quotient.
14:34And I take the test and it tells me, okay, you have traits that align with autism.
14:38And so, okay, that's weird.
14:40Let me go ahead and get a doctor to confirm this.
14:44And we got the doctor and she basically.
14:48And you know, something that we found really difficult was finding someone to help diagnose adults with autism.
14:57Oh my gosh.
14:57That's the journey in itself.
14:58It is so rare for adults with autism to find even therapy.
15:05It was, that in itself was a journey.
15:07And it's like, how do we get the help that you need?
15:09And just talking to different professionals, just help us see how difficult this journey was.
15:16And it's just, it's so difficult because, you know, when you're a late diagnosed autistic person, you have developed by this time in your life, a number of adaptations and masking strategies that you're not even aware of.
15:29So, yeah, it took me, it took my doctor some time to kind of go through my history and go through some of my characteristics and really understand, like, are you actually autistic?
15:40Because I disguise it so well.
15:43And I've learned to adapt to, you know, the neurotypical world around me.
15:47And so, um, eventually we got there, but it was a journey.
15:51It was not straightforward at all.
15:53There's this one thing that your mom always talks about how whenever they would go to restaurants and Jonathan, he does not like being around big crowds or talking to strangers.
16:02She will force him to make eye contact and know you need to order your food.
16:06I mean, she's a baby boomer.
16:07She essentially forced him to, I don't know, be neurotypical.
16:13Yeah.
16:13Yeah, yeah.
16:14Because, you know, she didn't understand when I was, you know, this is the 80s when I grew up.
16:18And so it just, the science on autism just wasn't where it was today.
16:22And, you know, there's so much more awareness today.
16:25And so growing up, I didn't have any allowances for being autistic.
16:31That just wasn't a thing.
16:32You were just different.
16:33I was just, and then not only that, but growing up in Pomona, this is a rougher area.
16:38And so when you grow up in these places and you're just seen as, like, weird or different, you, it's almost a matter of survival to adapt.
16:46And so there's just so many factors that go into this and how I develop these adaptations and these masking techniques.
16:53And one of them is shutting down when you're overwhelmed and overstimulated.
16:58Yeah, there's always signs.
17:00But we never knew what, like, how to make sense of them.
17:03And then it all made sense.
17:03And what I do want to give, you know, the two of you kudos for is that while that diagnosis does explain a lot of stuff, you have made it a point to say that it does not excuse it.
17:15And I think that, you know, what the two of you, especially when I listened to your most recent podcast, you had brought up this idea that, like, what you are doing now in the present, in the future, does not obfuscate the past.
17:26You have explained, like, objectively, these were bad things that you said that you did.
17:32And, like, let's not get it twisted.
17:35And I think that it's good to take that sense of accountability.
17:39Obviously, you know, the best time would have been in the moment.
17:41The second best time is obviously now, better late than never.
17:44Exactly.
17:45Yeah.
17:45Yeah.
17:46I just want to be very clear about that.
17:48Just to reiterate, not making excuses.
17:50I know it's very hard because it seems like I'm putting the hype behind autism.
17:54I, you know, I'm reading comments online and I don't want people to feel that way.
17:58I really do, especially now, understand that I can control where I direct that anger once it gets to the surface.
18:05Right.
18:06And one thing I got to say about Jonathan, he is very objective.
18:11I'm sorry.
18:11He is very objective.
18:12But also, Jonathan is big on accountability for himself and for other people around him.
18:18And he has always, every time every leg ended, once his stimuli was able to calm down, we always talked to everything.
18:26There was always apologies.
18:28That is how we were able to reset.
18:29And you can tell that at the beginning of each leg, everything was fine.
18:33Yeah.
18:34Something that always, you know, you saw on the show, I would often blame her for things she didn't deserve blame for.
18:40And I know what that was now.
18:43I mean, I was just trying to make sense of these emotions in my head and I would just put it on the first thing that I saw, which was her.
18:50And it was every time I did that, I was wrong.
18:53But what I understand now is when you get to that point, when the anger gets to that point, you just want to get it out.
18:59And you put it on the first thing you see.
19:01And that was always my wife.
19:02I'm on a team with my wife.
19:04So she would often get the brunt of that anger.
19:08And, yeah, that's definitely one of my biggest regrets about my experience.
19:14I seriously cannot thank you both enough.
19:17I know that it was not the most ideal experience to watch back, to go through it.
19:23But, like, I think it does speak to both of your sense of maturity and your admiration for each other.
19:28That the fact that you were able to get through it together, that you were able to look into what might be happening, that you were able to look at ways to move forward from it.
19:38I do think it's something that should be admired.
19:41And so I am incredibly appreciative of the fact that you are so open about your journey on the race and especially off the race, watching it all back.
19:50I know this could not have been an easy situation for you both.
19:53But the fact that you are here right now together talking to me with so much candor, I think, just speaks to the love that you two have for each other that was, if anything, even more renewed by getting to do this once-in-a-lifetime experience together.
20:07Yeah, we definitely learn a lot about each other.
20:10One, that I was more patient than I thought.
20:14Although it's easy when you're racing for a million bucks, right, when you have to kind of keep the ship afloat.
20:18And also, as a parent, you get used to just, you know, muting the noise out.
20:24But, yeah, I think I explained this on our last recap.
20:27I was there on a mission because winning a million dollars and winning the amazing race was bigger than me and him.
20:32This was, you know, we always talked about generational wealth and how can we help our families and how can we set up our daughters for a brighter future than, you know, opportunities that we never had.
20:42And, you know, again, our mission was bigger than us and I needed to stay focused.
20:47One of us needed to stay focused when you needed to, you know.
20:51Yeah, yeah.
20:52You were always there for us, you know, and I give you credit for that.
20:55Massive credit because I just can't imagine what that was like for you.
21:00It must have been very difficult, though.
21:02Yeah.
21:03Well, thank you both.
21:04I know, again, these are very difficult conversations to have.
21:06And I, again, from the bottom of my heart, I have so much appreciation for the two of you speaking so openly about this.
21:12I know a lot of people do as well.
21:13So thank you dearly and I hope you and the family are doing well and congratulations.
21:19I know, again, it was not the million dollars, but if the goal was to make it to the final three, that's mission accomplished.
21:25Yeah, I mean, we're proud that we at least, not just that, but come on.
21:32I mean, look, I'm a black autistic man and she is a Mexican woman that comes from nothing.
21:37We have two kids and the fact that we beat all these teams despite that and despite a lot of adversity that we faced.
21:44And I feel like it's just a remarkable achievement.
21:47So, yeah.