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Joseph M. Lenard
  • 2 days ago
CTP (S4E179) Relaunching A Fantasy Series and more
We talk with returning guest JM Shaw about relaunching her supernatural fantasy series with updated second editions, new covers, and stronger editing while keeping the story intact. The conversation also gets real about autism, dyslexia, audiobook accessibility, and why reviews on Amazon and Goodreads can make or break discoverability.
• relaunching Forsaken Souls with new covers and revised content
• switching editors, leveling up craft, and making early books match current voice
• why covers matter for sales, thumbnails, and genre expectations
• the updated back-cover pitch, worldbuilding, and human themes inside fantasy
• autism diagnosis in adulthood and using writing to model emotions and social cues
• dyslexia, missed words in drafts, and using text-to-speech for self-editing
• audiobooks, AI voices, and whether listening equals reading
• ebooks for rural access, screen fatigue, and reading with a physical book
• Goodreads vs Amazon reviews and why readers should leave feedback
• where to find JM Shaw online and what’s next in the series
People, please, if you like the author, if you like the book, please leave a review.
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Transcript
00:00Hello, welcome to another episode of Perstitutionalist Podcast.
00:06I am your host, Joseph M. Leonard.
00:09That's L-E-N-A-R-D.
00:12It looks French.
00:13It's not.
00:14It's Leonard without an O.
00:17Thank you for tuning in, as Graham Norton used to say, on his show.
00:24Let's get on with the show!
00:27Hello, everyone.
00:30This is going to be a quick cheat intro segment.
00:34I'm going to be lazy.
00:35I've got so many guest recordings built up.
00:40I'm going to get lazy and cheat on some Saturdays.
00:44I don't have to dream up a monologue topic this way.
00:49And I'm also not going to say what guest will be appearing,
00:53because I'm going to be lazy and cheat and use this same intro several Saturdays to intro a guest show.
01:03So, as Graham Norton used to say, let's get on with the show!
01:10Surprise interview!
01:12Take care, cop plus!
01:14Joining me today, or I should say, via our mutual Canuckistanian lander friend, Mickey Mickelson,
01:26rejoining me today, a return visit from J.M. Shaw.
01:32Welcome.
01:34Thank you for having me back.
01:36Yeah.
01:37I...
01:38Well, here's the presser from Mickey.
01:41So, let me hold up the...
01:43Before we get into Forsaken Souls,
01:47F-O-R, Saken, not F-O-U-R.
01:51That would have been an interesting play and twist.
01:55Yeah.
01:56F-O-R, Saken, the number of souls.
02:00But, hey, you didn't do that.
02:02Maybe that could be a follow-up.
02:05Anyway, the way my OCD brain works,
02:08just, you know, all kinds of weird ideas.
02:11At any rate, let me stick...
02:13Normally, I would start with,
02:16where were you born and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
02:19But, let me just, for those interested in that,
02:24and discussion of autism,
02:26I don't know if we'll do any of that today,
02:28go back in the Constitutionalist Catalog.
02:32J.M. was on Season 3, October Special 8.
02:37That was October 21st of 2025.
02:42So, rather than recover that ground,
02:46please go back to the October 21st, 2025,
02:52Season 3, October Special 8 episode for that.
02:56And let's dive right into the book.
03:00It says here,
03:00the critically acclaimed Supernatural series,
03:04now fully relaunched,
03:06so you're not just revisiting,
03:09you relaunched.
03:11Hopefully, you won't be reverbing an echo,
03:16ba-ba-ba-dum-bum,
03:18my stupid, lame humor again,
03:21with new covers, interesting,
03:24and content.
03:26Yep.
03:26Tell us about that.
03:28Yeah, so, I wrote it through,
03:31when I first wrote it through with my first editions,
03:34there was a lot that I didn't know.
03:36Here, I'll pull one up.
03:38Okay.
03:39And you can see the cover.
03:39You'll get a better view of it.
03:40For those viewing behind-the-scenes video,
03:44there it is.
03:46Forsaken, F-O-R, not F-O-U-R,
03:49Forsaken Souls.
03:50There's the cover.
03:51If you're listening on the 40-plus audio channels,
03:55why aren't you watching that video?
03:56But anyway, go on.
04:00So, yeah, first editions,
04:02when I released them,
04:03you know, I was still learning a lot.
04:05I was still growing as an author.
04:07Got to my fourth book,
04:08I ended up switching editors,
04:09and they had done such an amazing job,
04:12and I had grown a lot as an author
04:14that I wanted to go back to the beginning
04:16so that all of my books reflected
04:18who I was as a writer at this stage.
04:20And if I'm going to do that,
04:22I'm going to edit through all the first three books,
04:24I'm going to give them new covers,
04:25and with my first book,
04:26I added new chapters,
04:28and then I did a clarification
04:30and just re-edit of the second and third books.
04:33Cool.
04:34I like that you,
04:37since they're really a new revised edition,
04:43a second edition with updates,
04:46I'm glad it makes sense.
04:49I don't know if you needed any coaxing
04:52to change the covers.
04:54Like, I, you know,
04:58publishers hate me
04:59because I like to do things different.
05:01And one of the things I do different
05:03through Amazon KDP
05:05is my e-book has a cover,
05:08my print soft copy has a cover,
05:12my hard copy has a,
05:14yeah, a different cover.
05:16The e-book,
05:18they forced me to use the e-book cover.
05:20But, yeah,
05:21I like providing,
05:23like, kind of collector's cards.
05:26Hey,
05:27different covers,
05:28collect the whole set.
05:30Yeah.
05:31Well, I love the covers that I have now.
05:33Like, when I had designed,
05:34I didn't really get a chance
05:36to design the covers in the beginning.
05:38I, you know,
05:39found somebody who was recommended to me
05:41off of Fiverr,
05:42and it was basically,
05:43here, go to these sites,
05:44choose these pictures from this site,
05:46and we will layer them on top of each other,
05:48and that's it.
05:48There was no input.
05:50There was very little creative,
05:52you know,
05:52artistic adjustments and stuff.
05:55So, I was recommended a cover designer
05:58who's won awards for her covers,
06:00and it was a very intuitive process.
06:02She actually had to,
06:03she looks through the novel.
06:05She asked me about my themes.
06:07We talked about everything
06:09from the color of the text,
06:11and then we came up with,
06:13like, taglines,
06:14and there was a lot
06:15that I hadn't thought about.
06:19And I go into,
06:20in how to write a book
06:22and get it published,
06:23hence tips and techniques.
06:26So, if you're thinking about writing,
06:28get my book
06:29because I discussed covers.
06:32Yes.
06:33Shouldn't judge a book by its cover
06:35is valid advice about people.
06:39Yes.
06:41Content of character, right?
06:44But books,
06:46hell yes,
06:47they judge the book by the cover
06:49before they'll even consider
06:52picking it up
06:53to consider buying it.
06:55Yes?
06:55Yeah, absolutely.
06:56I mean,
06:57the first thing they see
06:57is the cover.
06:58Maybe the second thing they see
06:59is the blurb on the back.
07:01And then they,
07:02before they,
07:03you have to get past those
07:04before they even open them up
07:05and look inside.
07:07Yep.
07:09Absolutely.
07:10So,
07:13so absolutely
07:14your cover matters.
07:17but sadly,
07:19like through Kindle,
07:20like the e-books,
07:23they,
07:23they want them dumbed down.
07:26They want them somewhat plain
07:29so that,
07:30you know,
07:31because most people
07:32are just seeing
07:32the little thumbnail.
07:34Yeah.
07:35And you,
07:35like my Terror Strikes book,
07:38you look at this
07:40in a thumbnail,
07:40you can't see
07:43all the detailing
07:45going on
07:46in that cover.
07:47Yeah.
07:48So,
07:48so an e-book
07:50indeed is a little different,
07:52but
07:53absolutely
07:55cover details.
07:56Oops,
07:56I went fuzzy there
07:57for some reason.
07:58Let me,
07:59let me cover over my,
08:00whatever,
08:01it'll clear up eventually.
08:04The wonders of Zoom
08:06and technical difficulties.
08:07Yeah.
08:09Anyway,
08:09so
08:12we've kind of
08:13already
08:13discovered,
08:15discussed
08:17the motivation
08:18to,
08:19to go back.
08:20Now,
08:21is there then
08:22the thinking,
08:24well,
08:26this is the fourth,
08:28you said?
08:29This is the fourth book
08:30in my series,
08:31yes.
08:31And is there a planned fifth?
08:34I am working on my fifth
08:35currently as we speak.
08:36I mean,
08:37not at this exact moment
08:38because I'm talking to you,
08:39but I was working on it
08:42right before you emailed me.
08:44Oh,
08:44okay.
08:45Yeah.
08:45Oh,
08:45there I am.
08:46Hello,
08:46everybody.
08:46I'm back in focus.
08:50So,
08:51yeah,
08:51to me,
08:53it makes all the sense
08:54in the world
08:55to go back.
08:56it's,
08:59I don't know how,
09:00it's smart marketing-wise
09:05to potentially attract
09:07new audience
09:09to the older books.
09:11Potentially,
09:12I don't want to
09:14pardon,
09:15but I'm going to say it.
09:17Ron L. Hubbard-ish,
09:19Scientology is,
09:20we changed it a line
09:22so you got to
09:23buy the book now.
09:25Yeah.
09:25So,
09:26let me ask it this way.
09:28Do they need
09:30to buy
09:31and update it
09:32and read
09:33one,
09:34two,
09:34and three
09:35over again
09:36to understand
09:37four and five
09:39or are they
09:40good
09:40if they've already
09:41read one through three?
09:44Oh,
09:44they're good.
09:45I didn't change the story.
09:46I mean,
09:46at the most,
09:47I made it sound better.
09:49I did add
09:50a couple chapters.
09:51I think there was
09:52five in total
09:53that I added
09:54to my first book.
09:55I did clarify
09:56some things
09:57with the history
09:58that were
09:59a little unclear.
10:01I mean,
10:02if you want to
10:02read those new chapters,
10:05they won't make
10:06or break
10:06the series.
10:08You know,
10:08you will still
10:09be able to carry along
10:10and you can just
10:11continue on.
10:12It's,
10:12you know,
10:13it's mostly,
10:14I think,
10:14there were characters
10:15in the first book
10:17that are important
10:18as we go
10:18that did not
10:19get their voices.
10:20So that's one
10:21of the reasons
10:22why I added
10:22the chapters.
10:23Okay,
10:24and that makes sense.
10:25And I really
10:27like that answer.
10:29And,
10:29right,
10:30it is not,
10:32oh,
10:32I'm being greedy.
10:34You gotta buy
10:35the books over again
10:36kind of thing.
10:37It's,
10:38for those going forward,
10:39you'll get a little
10:40more out of it.
10:41And the downside,
10:43though,
10:43of course,
10:44new chapters
10:45mean new
10:47additional print
10:48cost.
10:49This is true
10:50because it does
10:51add pages.
10:54So there's,
10:54is the old
10:56version edition
10:57one still
10:59available?
11:00Are they both?
11:02No.
11:03So those are gone.
11:04Oh,
11:04and that's another
11:06good reason.
11:07They're now
11:07collector's editions.
11:09Yeah.
11:10I do have
11:11sodden copies
11:12that,
11:13you know,
11:14of my first
11:15editions at home.
11:16I have them.
11:17I'm saving them
11:18just because,
11:19you know,
11:19I mean,
11:19it was still me.
11:20It was still my art.
11:22And it's kind of
11:23like a record
11:24of my improvements.
11:25yeah.
11:26So like my
11:27terror strikes
11:28coming soon
11:28to a city near you,
11:31I purposely
11:32decided
11:32to leave
11:34some chapters
11:35out that
11:35could have been
11:36in there,
11:37like on
11:37cyber threats
11:39and some,
11:41especially with me
11:43being a former
11:44IT guy,
11:45I've been asked,
11:47people prodded me,
11:49I've been thinking
11:49about,
11:50but still haven't
11:51done.
11:52Maybe I would
11:53say a
11:54director's cut
11:55version,
11:57leave both
11:57the shorter
11:58version and
11:59the director's
12:00cut,
12:01kind of like
12:01a movie
12:03DVD.
12:04Hey,
12:05here,
12:06extra
12:07scenes,
12:08extra
12:08chapters
12:09for those
12:10who are
12:11willing to
12:12pay the
12:12extra cost.
12:14But,
12:15well,
12:15I don't mean
12:15to put you
12:16on the spot,
12:17but I guess
12:17I'm going to.
12:18Now that I've
12:20mentioned it,
12:21is there any
12:22potential you
12:23may consider
12:24having the
12:25old ones
12:26be made
12:27available
12:28again?
12:30Or,
12:30or do you
12:31feel
12:32the cost
12:34change
12:37the value
12:38of the
12:39new
12:39chapters
12:39really
12:40warrants
12:41the extra
12:42cost,
12:42and you
12:43want to
12:43make sure
12:44going forward
12:45new readers
12:46get those
12:47new chapters?
12:48I don't know
12:48how to phrase
12:50that,
12:50but I think
12:51you know
12:51what I mean.
12:53Yes,
12:53yeah,
12:54I've
12:54archived
12:54my first
12:55editions.
12:56They're no
12:56longer
12:56available.
12:57They won't
12:57be available.
12:58I'm keeping
12:58them for my
12:59own,
12:59you know,
13:00memorabilia,
13:01but going
13:02forward now
13:03that my
13:04second
13:04editions are
13:04out from
13:05that point
13:06to the
13:06end of
13:07whenever is
13:09only going
13:09to be my
13:10second
13:10editions
13:10available.
13:12Okay.
13:13And from
13:14many
13:14perspectives,
13:16there's no
13:17right answer
13:18there.
13:19There's no
13:19right way
13:20or wrong
13:21way to do
13:22it.
13:22There's just
13:23choices to
13:24be made.
13:25Yes?
13:26Yes,
13:27absolutely.
13:28Okay.
13:33since we
13:34had already
13:35talked,
13:36let me
13:36grab the
13:39presser
13:39again and
13:40read what
13:42Mickey has
13:43written and
13:44then I'll
13:44let you
13:45expound on
13:45it.
13:46Driven south
13:47by their
13:48brethren in
13:49Northern
13:49Kingdom,
13:50the,
13:51what's that
13:52word?
13:53Dergeron.
13:54Dergeron.
13:55Okay,
13:55so I
13:56don't,
13:57the
13:57Dergeron
13:58have
13:58bided
13:59their
13:59time for
14:00nearly
14:00two
14:01centuries,
14:02nursing
14:02hatred
14:03and
14:03plotting
14:04vengeance
14:04since
14:05their
14:05defeat
14:06in the
14:06great
14:07elven
14:07war.
14:08I
14:09won't
14:09read.
14:10I'm
14:11pathetic
14:12at reading
14:12off the
14:13prompter,
14:13as they
14:14say.
14:14That's
14:14okay.
14:15That is
14:16my old
14:16synopsis
14:17for the
14:17book
14:17anyway.
14:17Oh,
14:18is it?
14:19So,
14:20what is
14:21kind of
14:21the new
14:23tagline or
14:24the new
14:25elevator pitch,
14:27the new
14:28best way to
14:29describe the
14:30series?
14:31Well,
14:32I can read
14:32what's on the
14:33back here.
14:33Okay,
14:34you read,
14:35yeah.
14:36So,
14:37yeah,
14:37for two
14:38centuries,
14:39the Dergeron
14:39have waited,
14:40exiled,
14:40after the
14:41great elven war,
14:42they have
14:42nursed their
14:43vengeance in
14:43silence.
14:43Now,
14:44as unrest
14:44fractures the
14:45northern kingdom
14:46and alliances
14:47weaken,
14:47the long-shadowed
14:48enemy begins
14:49to rise.
14:50Callum Walker
14:51never asked
14:51for destiny,
14:52but when he
14:53and his
14:53companion,
14:54Jax,
14:54set out on
14:55a journey
14:55to repair
14:56the failing
14:56veil between
14:57realms,
14:58they are
14:58captured and
14:59dragged into
15:00the hellish
15:00grotto beneath
15:01Eltharion.
15:02Forced to
15:03labor or
15:03die,
15:04Callum
15:04uncovers a
15:05terrifying
15:06truth.
15:07What is to
15:07come will
15:08not be a
15:08war,
15:09it will be
15:09a reckoning.
15:10Tempted by
15:11dark magic
15:11and haunted by
15:12his own
15:12buried anguish,
15:13Callum must
15:14decide whether
15:15to embrace
15:15a power
15:16that may
15:17save the
15:17realm or
15:18destroy him.
15:20Okay,
15:21so there
15:22you have
15:23it.
15:24Now,
15:25fantasy,
15:26again,
15:29I'm not
15:30here to
15:31dissuade
15:32anyone from
15:32buying the
15:33book,
15:33but my
15:34personal
15:35preference is
15:36fantasy isn't
15:37my first
15:38choice,
15:38but there
15:40are a lot
15:40of great
15:41fantasy books
15:42like yours,
15:42and fantasy
15:44realm,
15:45I just
15:45want you
15:46to kind
15:47of expound
15:48on,
15:50is an
15:51extension of
15:52our current
15:53realities.
15:53You're dealing
15:54in real
15:56world kind
15:57of things,
15:58but in a
15:58fantasy way,
16:00yes?
16:00Yes,
16:01I very much
16:02humanize my
16:03fantastical
16:04creatures and
16:06draw inspiration
16:07for them from
16:09our various,
16:10political and
16:11societal
16:12institutions and
16:14eras from
16:15across the
16:15ages.
16:16So my
16:17elves are
16:18very much
16:18along the
16:19lines of
16:20the medieval
16:21England,
16:22whereas the
16:23dwarves are
16:24more of a
16:25Norse slash
16:25Viking type
16:27era.
16:28And then the
16:29fairies are
16:30very nature
16:30loving, so
16:31they all have
16:32human aspects
16:33to them.
16:34Right.
16:34But fantasy is
16:35wonderful in
16:36that you can
16:36entertain,
16:37plus you
16:38can, you
16:39know, weave
16:39in messages
16:40that are
16:41understandable
16:42and relatable.
16:44Yeah, and
16:45we say
16:46fantasy, others
16:47might say
16:48mythology.
16:51Yep.
16:52I think
16:52there's a lot
16:53of interchange
16:54between the
16:54two words.
16:56You know, I
16:57mean, I
16:57study myths
16:58and legends,
17:00which some
17:00people will
17:01call fairy
17:02tales.
17:03And, you
17:04know, so
17:05I think
17:06that they
17:07were all
17:07stories that
17:08people made
17:09to try to
17:10understand their
17:11world.
17:12And they
17:13carried through
17:13because they
17:14have entertainment
17:15value as
17:16well as, you
17:17know, messages
17:18in them.
17:19Yeah.
17:19Now, it was
17:21nearly a year
17:22ago.
17:23Again, go back
17:24in the
17:24Constitutionalist
17:25Archives.
17:26Season 3,
17:27October
17:28Special 8,
17:29October 21st,
17:302025.
17:33I've forgotten
17:36the autism
17:38connection here.
17:39So, let's
17:40briefly touch
17:41on that.
17:43Yeah.
17:43So, for me,
17:44I wasn't
17:45diagnosed until
17:45I was an
17:46adult.
17:46And I
17:47remember growing
17:48up and
17:48feeling very
17:49much like an
17:50alien dropped
17:50off on this
17:51planet without
17:51script.
17:52So, I
17:53couldn't figure
17:54out, like, how
17:55do people
17:56survive?
17:56How do people
17:57navigate society?
17:58How do people
17:59understand unspoken
18:00language or body
18:01language?
18:01You know, just
18:02different things.
18:03So, I started by
18:04analyzing people,
18:06watching them,
18:07writing down
18:07conversations and
18:08developing a script
18:09for myself to
18:10use.
18:10But that only
18:11told me what
18:11people were
18:13doing, what I
18:14could see.
18:14I couldn't get
18:15into their heads
18:16to figure out,
18:17why are they
18:17doing that?
18:18I tried reading
18:19books, but that
18:21kind of helped me
18:22to see cause and
18:24effect, the thoughts
18:25that lead to
18:26actions.
18:27But those,
18:28again, were not
18:28real people.
18:29They were
18:30fictional
18:30characters.
18:31So, I
18:31needed to
18:32understand my
18:33own thoughts, my
18:34own feelings, and
18:35how to act
18:36appropriately.
18:36So, I started to
18:37write.
18:38I started to live
18:39vicariously, put
18:40myself in my
18:41character's head.
18:41So, if I was
18:42feeling sad or
18:43angry, I would put
18:44my characters in
18:45situations to
18:45elicit those
18:46emotions and
18:47watch through
18:48their eyes,
18:49basically, let
18:50them deal with
18:51them and see how
18:51they came out on
18:52top and, in a
18:53sense, learn to
18:54deal with my own
18:55emotions in a safe
18:56setting.
18:56And then, you
18:58know, hobby
18:59outlet turned
19:00into a passion.
19:01And then, when I
19:02was diagnosed in
19:032019, after I'd
19:04been writing for
19:05decades, I kind
19:07of started to
19:07think, well, maybe
19:08writing is more
19:08than just a, you
19:09know, passion,
19:10hobby turned
19:11passion.
19:11And it gave me
19:12the courage to
19:13send my first
19:14book, The
19:15Ascension, which
19:16I just finished
19:16the manuscript of
19:17at that time, to
19:18an editor.
19:19And, you
19:20know, the worst
19:20they can say is
19:21it sucks.
19:21And they came
19:22back and said,
19:22this doesn't
19:23suck.
19:23You need to
19:24publish.
19:25So, two years
19:26later, I did.
19:26And now I have
19:27four books, a
19:28fifth on a way,
19:29some side projects.
19:29I'm a podcaster.
19:31I'm also sold
19:32thousands of
19:33copies, and I'm
19:33an award-winning
19:34author.
19:35So, autism was
19:36kind of that door
19:37that opened for me
19:39and my courage.
19:40I found my courage.
19:41And I'm very glad
19:42you did that again.
19:44And, frankly, I'm
19:45not just blowing
19:46smoke here.
19:47Credit where
19:48credits do.
19:49Your courage to
19:51do that, to
19:52help people with
19:54autism, it gives
19:55them a chance
19:58to read in.
20:00But the issue,
20:01of course, is
20:02autism is a
20:03spectrum.
20:04It's a scale.
20:06And people need
20:07to come to
20:08understand that.
20:09But you were
20:11inspiration for
20:12me to share my
20:14ADHD slash OCD
20:17duality.
20:18through my
20:19latest
20:19rollercoasters,
20:21the lifetime.
20:22Rick, in that
20:24book, deals
20:24with OCD
20:26because, again,
20:28like autism,
20:30people just don't
20:31really understand
20:32it.
20:32They hear OCD,
20:33they think
20:34Howie Mandel
20:36and germophobia.
20:38Well, the
20:38germophobia is
20:40one thing that
20:41makes his OCD
20:42worse, and the
20:43OCD makes the
20:45they're different,
20:47but they relate.
20:49Yeah, and
20:50there's a spectrum
20:52across all of
20:53them.
20:53I have two
20:54boys, and
20:55they're both on
20:56the autism
20:56spectrum, but
20:57they are polar
20:58opposites.
20:59My oldest has
21:00struggles with
21:01reading unspoken
21:02language, learning
21:04about social
21:05acceptable
21:06behaviors, whereas
21:09my younger one
21:10can interpret
21:11those, but he
21:11has more of
21:12the OCD
21:13and sensory
21:14issues.
21:16Now, you
21:17mentioned a
21:18key there that
21:19I want to
21:20seize on.
21:23Unspoken
21:23language is the
21:24term you used,
21:25right?
21:26So, the
21:27obvious next
21:28question is,
21:29are they all
21:31available on
21:31audiobook for
21:33indeed those
21:34who prefer to
21:35hear a book
21:37because reading
21:38is a struggle?
21:41They're not
21:42available yet.
21:42I am looking
21:43into it because
21:44I have had a
21:45lot of requests,
21:45so it will be
21:47eventually.
21:47It's just I've
21:48had, I have
21:49put everything
21:49on hold to
21:50complete the
21:51relaunch, and
21:52now that that's
21:53done, I'm
21:54working full steam
21:55ahead on my
21:55fifth book and
21:57trying to play
21:57catch-up, so I
21:58am looking into
21:59it, so it's
22:00going to eventually
22:01be.
22:01Well, the good
22:02news on that
22:03front is that's
22:07one of the AI
22:08innovations.
22:09Right?
22:10Text-to-speech.
22:12It's easier
22:13without having to
22:14hire a bunch of
22:16actors to
22:17text-to-speech,
22:19find a
22:20reasonable AI
22:22voice, and
22:23do it that
22:24way.
22:24It makes it
22:25less expensive
22:27cost for the
22:29author trying to
22:30do it, which
22:30means you can
22:32make the book
22:33less expensive
22:34for the end
22:35user to be able
22:36to buy, and as
22:38we discuss
22:38having audio
22:40books these
22:41days, I
22:42had the
22:42argument on
22:43true social,
22:45Epoch Times
22:46raised the
22:48question because
22:49of studies on
22:50reading, reading
22:51scores, comprehension
22:53scores, fallen
22:55older adults
22:57deciding to not
22:59pick up books
23:00anymore, so
23:01book sales and
23:03reading as a
23:04hole is down,
23:06is audio
23:07books the
23:08same as
23:08reading?
23:09And of course,
23:10the immediate
23:11thing I got was
23:12the technical.
23:13Well, no, they
23:15are absolutely
23:16two different
23:17things, and
23:17yes, they are.
23:19Reading with
23:20your eyes is
23:21an important
23:23and studies
23:24show you
23:25absorb it
23:26better.
23:26That is
23:27true, but
23:29I dare
23:30say, I'm
23:31willing to
23:32say audio
23:33books is
23:34still quasi
23:35reading the
23:36book because
23:37you're at
23:37least absorbing
23:39the material,
23:41yes?
23:42Yeah, reading
23:43though, I
23:44think, you
23:45know, reading
23:45requires, like
23:46you said, requires
23:47your eyes, whereas
23:48audio requires
23:49your ears, and
23:50they're two
23:50different organs,
23:53different parts
23:54of your brain,
23:55yes.
23:55Yeah, so I
23:56would be, I'm
23:58hard-pressed to
23:58believe that
23:59audio, just
24:00listening to
24:00books, is the
24:01same as
24:02reading a
24:03book, because
24:04it's activating
24:04a different
24:05part of your
24:05brain, but I
24:06have heard a
24:07lot of
24:07people that
24:08will listen
24:09to an
24:09audiobook as
24:10they're holding
24:11the book and
24:11follow it along,
24:12which activates
24:13both parts of
24:14your brain.
24:16I really like
24:17that idea.
24:18If nothing
24:19else comes out
24:20of the show,
24:21there's a
24:22highlight.
24:22I really
24:23like that, to
24:25interact with
24:26it both ways
24:27and really,
24:28really, because
24:29I want the
24:30reading is
24:31fundamental PSA
24:32ads to come
24:33back to get
24:34reading back
24:35up, because
24:36yes, you
24:37need to
24:37exercise your
24:39brain muscle
24:40like you would
24:41any other
24:41muscle to
24:42help protect
24:44against dementia
24:45later and
24:47whatnot, so
24:48that makes
24:49perfect sense
24:50much to
24:51do that.
24:52But again,
24:56if people
24:57just feel
24:58they're too
24:58busy, I
25:00got a two
25:01hour commute,
25:02I've got a
25:03trip next
25:04week, it's
25:05going to be
25:05four hours,
25:06so if you
25:07want to listen
25:08to a book,
25:09I'm absolutely
25:10all for that
25:12too, because
25:12you'll at
25:13least get
25:14the material
25:15real to a
25:16degree, but
25:17yes, I
25:18agree with
25:19you, it
25:20sounds like
25:21you agree
25:21with the
25:22studies as
25:23I do, that
25:24reading the
25:26physical book,
25:27even not just
25:28the e-book,
25:29though, again,
25:30if that's your
25:31best and only
25:32option, great,
25:34you're still
25:35engaging, but
25:36a physical
25:38copy
25:40engagement is
25:41still the
25:42best way
25:44to do
25:44it, yes?
25:45Absolutely, or
25:45when you have
25:46issues, and I
25:47love that
25:47technology is
25:48available for
25:49people with
25:49reading
25:50difficulties and
25:51or preferences,
25:53I also have
25:54dyslexia, although
25:55it's mild, I
25:57struggled with it
25:58without knowing
25:59that that was
25:59what was going
26:00on, so for
26:01the longest
26:01time, when I
26:02was growing up,
26:03and this is
26:04before things
26:04were known,
26:05and I'd take
26:06my books, and
26:07if I get to
26:07the end of the
26:08line, I'd get
26:08lost coming to
26:09the next one, so
26:10I used to take
26:10a bookmark, and
26:11I'd just move
26:11it down, and
26:12then move it
26:12down, and move
26:13it down, and
26:13it's like red
26:13each line, and
26:15I had a teacher
26:15come along and
26:16take my bookmark
26:16away, and she
26:17said, that's not
26:17how we read, so
26:19me, I said, fine,
26:21I'm going to use
26:21my finger, because
26:21you can't take
26:22that away, you
26:23know, and I
26:24can't do that
26:25with e-books,
26:26because it keeps
26:27changing the
26:28pages, and then
26:28I get dizzy, but
26:30I do like the
26:31options that they
26:32have now, because
26:33when I'm writing, I
26:34can't see that I've
26:35missed words, like
26:36I miss those
26:37little article words
26:37a lot, like
26:38of, the, and,
26:40but I don't see
26:41that I've missed
26:41them, or I'll
26:42miss, you know,
26:43context words, like
26:44instead of the
26:45gray fox jump, I'll
26:46just say the gray
26:47jumped, and so I
26:49miss a word, but
26:49in my mind, I
26:50can't see that
26:51it's gone, or
26:52I'll miss a
26:53letter, and the
26:53funniest thing that
26:54happened with that
26:55was, I had a
26:56character go out
26:56to assess the
26:57situation, but I
26:58missed one of the
26:58S's at the end, I
27:00didn't notice it, and
27:01my spell
27:01director said it
27:02was, you know,
27:04it's spelled
27:04correctly, yeah.
27:05Yes, it's spelled
27:07correctly, but the
27:08wrong damn word.
27:10I know, exactly, but
27:11I couldn't see that
27:12I missed the
27:12letter, so my
27:13spell checker didn't
27:14catch it, my
27:15editor did, and
27:16questioned why
27:17there was multiple
27:17donkeys out there,
27:18but I now know to
27:21get my computer to
27:22read it back to me
27:22once I've written
27:23it, because it
27:24doesn't read over
27:25those words, it
27:26doesn't input them
27:27like my brain does.
27:28That's one of my
27:29tips, hints, tips,
27:30and techniques in
27:32how to read a book
27:33and get it
27:33published.
27:35Have your
27:35computer dictate
27:37your Word document
27:39back to you, because
27:40indeed, when it's
27:42reading it back to
27:44you aloud, it's
27:46like, well, wait a
27:47minute, even if all
27:48the words are
27:49correct, you'll catch
27:51things like you just
27:52pointed out.
27:53Even if it's
27:54correct, you might
27:56say, well, it just
27:58doesn't sound right.
28:00When I hear it, I
28:02need to change
28:03that line, and
28:04that's the great
28:05thing about
28:07authorship.
28:08You have days,
28:10weeks, months,
28:11potentially years,
28:12to get it right,
28:14as opposed to
28:15being on a show
28:17under pressure, and
28:18the words don't
28:19always articulate
28:20correctly, like when
28:21I was stumbling
28:23with a question
28:24earlier.
28:24Well, I'm glad you
28:25mentioned dyslexia.
28:27Yeah, go back in
28:29the archives, there's
28:30a guest strictly
28:32talking dyslexia, so
28:34you're going to want
28:35to hear that, and
28:37that's a valid
28:38point.
28:38So, yes, it's
28:39available on e-book.
28:41Yes, it is.
28:42Yes.
28:43And that's the other
28:43good thing.
28:44Now that we're
28:45recording, this will
28:47air before Christmas.
28:48So, guess what?
28:50If you forgot, oh,
28:51my God, I didn't get
28:53Uncle Johnny a gift.
28:56You can e-gift an e-book
29:00for immediate email to
29:03let them know you
29:04bought it for them, and
29:05they can e-download it
29:08and e-read it, and you
29:10don't need a Kindle
29:11device to read a Kindle
29:13or a Nook device to read
29:16a Nook book or an Apple
29:19device to read an Apple
29:21book.
29:21They are all e-pub
29:23files, download on any
29:25digital device, any
29:27free e-reader will
29:29then open it for you.
29:31But you're right, and
29:33I agree, and that's why
29:35I said it before, trying
29:37to read it on a screen
29:39is wholly different.
29:42It strains the eyes, too.
29:45Yeah, it's almost a
29:46different skill set, I
29:48almost dare say.
29:49And you're right, it's
29:50bad in a way, kind of
29:52for the eyes, so I,
29:55well, again, it's
29:56another option, e-books
29:58are cheaper, because
29:59hey, you don't gotta
30:01print and ship the
30:02book.
30:03So that part is great,
30:06but yes, I worry about
30:08people's eyesight in the
30:11future and whatnot, and
30:13as you said, with a
30:14physical book, you
30:16could kind of follow
30:17along, the page
30:19doesn't auto-shift
30:21on you, and you
30:23lose track of where
30:24you were, that sort
30:27of thing.
30:28It's also nice, too,
30:31like, well, when I was
30:32a kid, we didn't have
30:33access to e-books,
30:34because they weren't a
30:35thing then, but I
30:36lived out in the middle
30:38of nowhere.
30:38We didn't have a
30:39library.
30:40We had very few books
30:42at school, and I ended
30:43up reading through all
30:44of them, which is one of
30:44the reasons also to why
30:46I started writing, but
30:47e-books are available to
30:48people, even if they're
30:49not close to a library,
30:51even if their school
30:51doesn't have a lot of
30:52books, then e-books are
30:53something that they're
30:54available for almost
30:56anybody who has a
30:57computer and a network
30:58connection.
30:59Yeah, the internet is,
31:01especially now with
31:02Elon Starlink from
31:04space, the internet is,
31:07you know, there used to
31:08be the internet
31:09projects.
31:10We need to get high-speed
31:12internet to the rural
31:13areas.
31:14Well, now everybody
31:15has that high-speed
31:17access.
31:18Yeah, there's a cost,
31:20but the internet's a
31:22luxury.
31:22It's not a necessity.
31:25You know, I hate to
31:26break that to people,
31:28although me, with my
31:30health issues being
31:31stuck in the house,
31:32internet is more of a
31:34necessity for me as a
31:36window to the world
31:38and outreach to other
31:41people than it is a
31:42necessity for other
31:44people.
31:45Yeah, yeah.
31:46It's definitely a tool
31:47and we shouldn't think
31:49of it as, yeah, you're
31:51right, it shouldn't be
31:52thought of as we
31:54absolutely must have it
31:55to survive because we
31:56can live without it.
31:57We lived for many years
31:58without it.
31:58Yeah.
32:00What are we going to do
32:01when the power's out?
32:03Yeah, exactly.
32:04It's like, then you
32:05crack open a book or
32:06pull out a puzzle.
32:07You know?
32:07A candle to light
32:09up your book and
32:11read it.
32:12Absolutely.
32:13Just, oh, I'm
32:15dependent on my TV.
32:16No, have some books
32:17around when the power
32:19goes out and it
32:21inevitably will, at
32:24least on occasion,
32:25here and there,
32:26hopefully not for long
32:29periods of time, but
32:30yeah, have candles and
32:32matches and books to be
32:34able to read.
32:36All right, well, I'm
32:37going to go ahead and
32:38wrap it up there then.
32:40I didn't pay attention
32:41to when we got started
32:42to even know how long
32:43we've gone, but again,
32:45since this is a return
32:46visit, people, again,
32:50September, season three,
32:52October special eight,
32:53October 21, 2025 is the
32:56other episode to pair
32:57with this one.
32:59Thank you, J.M.
33:01Shaw.
33:01I hadn't said your name
33:03enough.
33:04For Saken Souls, we
33:06haven't said the title
33:07enough, for coming on
33:11again, and I do need
33:14to ask you again, what
33:16is your website?
33:18It's easy.
33:19It's jmshawauthor.com,
33:22and everything is there.
33:24You can see my books.
33:25You can read about them.
33:26You can see when the
33:26next one comes out.
33:27There's an events page.
33:29It'll tell you where I'm
33:29at and what I'm doing,
33:30and then on the bottom,
33:31there's links to
33:32Instagram, Facebook.
33:33I will be adding my
33:34YouTube channel soon,
33:35and there's a Goodreads
33:37link as well, so you can
33:37see what other people
33:38are saying.
33:41Yeah, Goodreads is
33:43generally a good place,
33:45and for those who don't
33:46know, Goodreads is an
33:49extension of Amazon.
33:50It's an Amazon company,
33:52but it's a good place to
33:55find additional reviews
33:57where Amazon locks the
34:00review section to only
34:03people who bought the book,
34:05which is good on one hand
34:07because you don't want a
34:08bunch of haters just being
34:11able to come and leave
34:12nasty reviews when they
34:15haven't read the book, so
34:17Goodreads is a good, no
34:19pun intended, extension on
34:22where to find scuttlebutt
34:24about books.
34:26But indeed, unfortunately,
34:28bear that in mind.
34:30I do go into that in the
34:32review section of how to
34:33write a book and get it
34:34published.
34:35Not so much for the
34:37author's benefit, but for
34:39the reader's benefit.
34:40If you're interested in
34:42understanding how a book is
34:44put together, why, and all
34:47that, you can read how to
34:49write a book and get it
34:50published as a, not as a
34:53how-to, but a tell-all
34:55without naming any
34:56Kardashians, right?
34:58What did JM go through to
35:01get these books available for
35:03you to be able to read and
35:05review?
35:08People, please, if you like
35:10the author, if you like the
35:12book, please leave a review.
35:15People will tell their
35:16friends all day long, oh, I
35:18love, but they won't take
35:20two seconds to leave you the
35:22good review on Amazon,
35:24unfortunately.
35:26And a lot of books get
35:27passed over because of too
35:29few reviews.
35:30People make the bad
35:32assumption, nobody's buying
35:35it, nobody likes it,
35:37nobody's reading it.
35:39So, please understand that as
35:42a reader, just because
35:43there's no reviews there
35:45doesn't mean people don't
35:47love the book.
35:49Exactly.
35:50And, you know, I mean, a
35:52lot of people are also, you
35:54know, rather than leaving
35:55good reviews, people are more
35:57likely to leave a bad review
35:58if they don't like
36:00something, they're rather
36:01say something bad against
36:02something.
36:03Yeah.
36:03I've been fortunate.
36:04I've had a lot of people
36:06coming back and leaving
36:07reviews for me that are, you
36:09know, I call them author's
36:11fuel.
36:13Yeah, what gets me is
36:18the grammar criticisms
36:20because grammar has almost
36:23become like beauty.
36:24It's in the eye of the
36:25beholder.
36:26While I didn't like the way
36:28they said that, I would have
36:30said it this way, so I'm going
36:31to attack it as bad grammar.
36:36Did you like the story?
36:38Did you get the story?
36:40That's the point of the book.
36:43Not, you know, I'm sure
36:45Flowers for Algernon drove
36:47him crazy with all the
36:48purposely misspellings and bad
36:51grammars in that book.
36:53Yes?
36:54Yep.
36:55I've found a few errors in
36:58big name authors books.
36:59I mean, we're human.
37:00And I always say, too, that,
37:02you know, if it was perfect,
37:04it wasn't written by a human.
37:07Amen.
37:08Amen.
37:08I hear.
37:08And that's a consideration
37:10today with so many people
37:12saying, oh, I got an idea.
37:15Hey, chat GPT, give me a book
37:18on this idea.
37:20And then they go claim it as
37:21their own book.
37:23Well, yeah, you know, a story
37:26by so-and-so written by chat GPT
37:30would then at least be honest.
37:33But a lot of these people
37:35aren't being honest about it.
37:39Okay.
37:40Thanks again, J.M. Shaw,
37:42for coming on.
37:44Appreciate your time.
37:46And again, the book Forsaken
37:48Souls, J.M. Shaw,
37:52jmshawauthor.com.
37:53Yes?
37:54Yes.
37:55Yeah.
37:55And the links there, you can
37:56find them online through the
37:57links on my website.
37:58All right.
38:00Have a good one.
38:01Take care.
38:01God bless.
38:05God bless.
38:19I open the blank page at 214
38:23With a cold soda ring
38:25And a buzzing screen
38:27Try to stay straight
38:29Try to keep it lean
38:30About a kid with a key
38:32And a rusty screen door dream
38:35He left town in a borrowed truck
38:38Three songs on the dash
38:40One pair of luck
38:42I wrote him a girlfriend
38:44With a chip blue mug
38:46And a map in a bag
38:47That she never opened up
38:49So I'm telling the story
38:52By telling this song
38:53Cutting the lines
38:55Where the good parts belong
38:57Putting the whole little life
38:59In three chords
39:00And a hook
39:01A name
39:02A town
39:03And the turn of a look
39:04It's just a short tale
39:06But it travels far
39:07From my notebook page
39:09To the back of your car
39:11I keep it small
39:13Keep it close
39:14Keep it true
39:15A song like a story
39:19A story like
39:21A story like
39:28A story like
39:43But don't make it shine
39:45So I let the silence
39:47Through half the lines
39:49The kid missed home
39:51By a county mile
39:53The girl by a laugh
39:55And a crooked smile
39:56I changed one ending
39:58Then changed it back
40:00Let the last verse land
40:02Where the first one cracked
40:04So I'm telling the story
40:06By telling this song
40:08Cutting the lines
40:09Where the good parts belong
40:11Putting the whole little life
40:13In three chords
40:14And a hook
40:15A name
40:16A town
40:17And the turn of a look
40:18It's just a short tale
40:20But it travels far
40:21From my notebook page
40:23To the back of your car
40:25I keep it small
40:27Keep it close
40:28Keep it true
40:29A song like a story
40:33A story like
40:35A story like
40:36A story like
40:42A story like
40:43A story like
40:47A story like
40:48And maybe that's all
40:50That a writer can do
40:51Pack up a day
40:53And hand it to you
40:55With a worn out pen
40:57And a thumb worn tape
40:59Make a minute feel
41:00Like it got away
41:02So I'm telling a story
41:05By telling this song
41:06Making it fit
41:08Where the beat rolls along
41:10A few plain words
41:12And a line that holds
41:13A little brass ring
41:16Of the lies I fold
41:17It's a short tale
41:19But it sticks around
41:20In the crack of a beat
41:22In the room
41:23And the sound
41:24I keep it small
41:25Keep it close
41:26Keep it true
41:27A song like a story
41:31A story like
41:56The life and living series
41:59Five stand-alone stories
42:01Read them in any order
42:03By Joseph M. Leonard
42:07The late great
42:10Patsy Cline once sang
42:15I've got your memory
42:19Or does it have me
42:22And now I know exactly
42:29How that feels
42:31How that feels
42:33You being gone
42:38All too real
42:41Oh, the late great country
42:44Traditional pop
42:46Nashville sound
42:47Won't sing
42:47A heartache, whiskey
42:49And love gone wrong
42:50They put it to a tune
42:53Made it sound so strong
42:55And now I'm living out
42:58And now I'm living out
42:58Every single song
43:00Yeah, those old records
43:02Spent telling my story true
43:04Wish I could change the ending
43:06Me and you
43:17I heard Hank Williams
43:19I heard Hank Williams croon
43:20About the lonesome blues
43:22Johnny Cash walked the line
43:24Paid his dues
43:26Low Ritalin fought for every single ride
43:31And I'm just trying to make it through the night
43:35They sang a heartbreak
43:38They sang a heartbreak
43:40I'm singing it too
43:44This empty house
43:47Just echoes me and you
43:52Oh, the late great country
43:55Traditional pop
43:57Nashville sound
43:58Won't sing a heartache, whiskey
44:00And love gone wrong
44:02They put it to a tune
44:04Made it sound so strong
44:06And now I'm living out
44:09Every single song
44:11Yeah, those old records
44:13Spent telling my story true
44:15Wish I could change the ending
44:18Me and you
44:29Maybe one day
44:31The radio will play
44:33A song that doesn't make me
44:35Wanna fade away
44:37A new melody
44:39A different kind of beat
44:42Where your ghost
44:44Isn't dancing on repeat
44:46Oh, the late great country
44:49Traditional pop
44:50Nashville sound
44:51Won't sing a heartbreak, whiskey
44:53And love gone wrong
44:55They put it to a tune
44:57Made it sound so strong
45:00And now I'm living out
45:02Every single song
45:04Yeah, those old records
45:06Spent telling my story true
45:09Wish I could change the ending
45:11Me and you
45:27The Life and Living Series
45:30Five Standalone Stories
45:32Read them in any order
45:34By Joseph M. Leonard
45:46The Life and Living Series
46:07Empty glass
46:09On the table
46:11Your side of the bed
46:13So cold
46:13I yelled
46:14I screamed
46:15I was able to promise
46:17Our hearts together
46:18Would grow old now
46:21Silence screams in my head
46:24Every word I wish unsaid
46:27I professed how my heart swelled
46:30At your touch
46:31But still put you through hell
46:37Rollercoaster tears
46:39Falling down my face
46:43Fighting all my fears
46:46Lost in this lonely space
46:50Rollercoaster tears
46:53Never again to embrace
46:57Rollercoaster tears
46:59A love I can't replace
47:08The doorbell rang late that night
47:12A siren's wail
47:14A flashing light
47:15My world went dark
47:17No sun, no bright
47:18Just endless wrong
47:20No end in sight
47:22My anger burned
47:24My foolish pride
47:25Nowhere left for me to hide
47:29I long to kiss
47:30Your sweet lips
47:32Lost
47:33Gone through my fingers
47:35Sleep
47:39Rollercoaster tears
47:41Falling down my face
47:45Falling down my face
47:46Fighting all my fears
47:48Lost in this lonely space
47:51Rollercoaster tears
47:54You're gone, no trace
47:58Rollercoaster tears
48:01A love I can't replace
48:23I pledged undying love till dust
48:27But alas, I was never worthy of your trust
48:30Now these nightmares
48:31Now these nightmares won't let me be
48:33I was blind
48:35I could not see
48:42Rollercoaster tears
48:44Falling down my face
48:48Fighting all my fears
48:51Lost in this lonely space
48:55Rollercoaster tears
48:58You're gone, no trace
49:01Rollercoaster tears
49:04A love I can't replace
49:21The story is over
49:23The story is over
49:25But yet again
49:28I have to live on
49:30Keep your legacy
49:32Keep your legacy
50:00A love I can't replace
50:05If only one last time
50:12I could see your face
50:16I could see your face
50:46As Christians
50:48As Christians we ought to try
50:50We may not always get it right
51:24As long as we try
51:28As long as we're in the middle of the night
51:55Put in the things we do
51:57We try
52:28We try
52:29And we let go
52:32We can't wait
52:34We can't wait
52:34We can watch that dish
52:35We can speak with grace
52:36Even when we're missed
52:37Small hands, small steps
52:38But they still add up
52:40Like bread on the table
52:41Like enough is enough
52:42We try
52:43We try
52:44With open hands doing the next right thing we care
52:51Not perfect, not polished, just willing and true
52:56Planned a little good in the things we do
53:01We try, we try and we let go slow
53:06Trust in the guy who already knows
53:11We don't carry what we can't supply
53:14We do our part and leave the rest for God
53:22When the road gets hard and the silence stays
53:26When we're out of answers and out of ways
53:31Teach us to move with a steady heart
53:35To keep our loving where we are
53:40We try, we try with open hands
53:45Doing the next right thing we care
53:50Not perfect, not polished, just willing and true
53:55Planned a little good in the things we do
53:59We try, we try and we let go slow
54:04Trust in the guy who already knows
54:09We do what we can and we step aside
54:16And leave the rest for God
54:41Dear Lord, sometimes I want us gone
54:45Vanished, erased
54:50Your earth creation start again
54:56Without a human trace
55:20Dear Lord, some nights I look at what we've built
55:23Oil on the water, smoke in the schoolyard
55:26Still a siren down the block
55:29A scream full of bad news
55:31We kept the receipts and still call it a breakthrough
55:34I walk past the corner where the trees got cut
55:38Now it's chain-lead gravel and a coffee truck
55:41Kids in hoodies cross, with their heads down low
55:45With their heads down low, nobody looking long
55:47Everybody in a rush to go
55:49Sometimes our water's gone
55:52Wipe clean off the map
55:55Not out of anger
55:59Just because we keep coming back
56:02We patch the same holes
56:06And dig them deeper in
56:10If this all got reset
56:14Maybe something good
56:16Could begin
56:24I know it's a wild pair
56:27I know it sounds cruel
56:29To ask for a blank page
56:31When we make the rules
56:32But there's too much taken
56:35Too much left undone
56:36Too many hands in the jar
56:38Too many ways we spun
56:40Still if mercy means more than a hard stop
56:44Maybe it starts with one last honest look at what we've got
56:47No more pretending the mess is somebody else's to hold
56:51No more calling this normal when it's just worn out and cold
56:55Sometimes I want us gone
56:58Wipe clean off the map
57:02Not out of anger
57:05Just because we keep coming back
57:08We patch the same holes
57:11And dig them deeper in
57:16If this all got reset
57:18Maybe something good
57:22Could begin
57:28Dear Lord
57:32I don't know how to mend what we've ruined
57:37I just know we're tired
57:40And maybe need be retired
57:44All to our tune
58:01Like and subscribe
58:04To the
58:05Constitutionalist Politics Podcast
58:07And share episodes
58:09We need your help
58:11Thank you for having tuned in
58:14To another
58:15Constitutionalist Podcast Show
58:18I really appreciate
58:20That you stopped by
58:22Again
58:23Please
58:23Like, share, subscribe
58:25We need you
58:27To help spread
58:29The Constitutionalist Movement
58:31Thank you again
58:33Take care
58:34God bless
58:35Love you all
58:3610
58:3610
58:3611
58:3613
58:3613
58:3714
58:3715

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