- 9 minutes ago
Indo-Tibetan Border Police Director General Shatrujeet Singh Kapoor reported recurring face-offs between Indian and Chinese forces at multiple points along the Line of Actual Control in Arunachal Pradesh, while the Ministry of External Affairs linked border tensions to deviations from established patrolling patterns.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today, your prime time destination.
00:04News, newsmakers, talking points are big talking point tonight.
00:09The Indo-Tibetan border police chief has flagged a face-off with China in Arunachal Pradesh.
00:16We'll have more details on that big story.
00:19Also, the election commission in course correction mode.
00:23But the question is, should the EC first come clean on what went wrong?
00:28Will accountability be fixed? Special panel coming up on that too.
00:32News without the noise. But first, as always, let's get cracking with the nine headlines at nine tonight.
00:40Centre admits Beijing is not following the patrolling pattern in Arunachal Pradesh.
00:46This comes the day after the ITBP chief confirms multiple face-offs along the line of actual control in Arunachal.
01:00Showdown over Rahul Gandhi's foreign trips.
01:03BJP accuses the leader of opposition of engaging with questionable individuals during his trips abroad.
01:09Congress hits back, asks about what about Prime Minister Modi's foreign trips during parliament sessions.
01:19AISA President Neha Bora does not get relief from the High Court.
01:23The court dismisses her plea challenging Delhi High Court notice directing her to furnish a 10,000 rupee bond with
01:30a shorty to maintain peace.
01:32Says she must go back to the magistrate.
01:38Haryana Power employees end strike over privatisation of the power sector.
01:43Haryana Chief Minister meets the protesting employees a day after the millennium Gurugram city goes dark.
01:52More details tumble out in the Tiger firing case investigation.
01:56Probe reveals shooters practiced firing at the RA forest in Mumbai a day before the incident.
02:01Film body urges producers to tighten security.
02:07BJP slams its former leader Anna Malai over his remarks in support of the Kokhruj Janta party.
02:14BJP says those who claim to be lions are now scurrying like kokhrujes in Tamil Nadu.
02:19Anna Malai had questioned the Modi government's handling of the CJP star.
02:25Last at a firecracker unit in Bihar, Siwan kills at least four intermittent explosions.
02:30Reportedly hurt for nearly two hours, caused behind the incident yet to be ascertained.
02:37Vadoodra civic body clears the land involving former cricketer Yusup Pathan's proposal amidst controversy.
02:43The same body had sent him a notice for encroachment.
02:47But within months of quitting the TMC, Pathan gets the land.
02:52And he warns.
02:55And amidst massive uproar, Delhi police gives nod to singer Diljit Dosanj's concert in Delhi earlier.
03:01Permission had been denied, citing security concerns amidst the festive season.
03:14But first, our top story tonight.
03:16The Indo-Tibetan Border Police, DG, Shatrujit Singh Kapoor,
03:21has admitted that there have been face-offs on the Chinese border in Arunachal Pradesh.
03:27The admission has sparked a major political controversy,
03:30with the Congress demanding answers from the Narendra Modi government.
03:33The Ministry of External Affairs did not give any specifics about any incident,
03:38but added that the situation in the India-China border areas gets disturbed from time to time
03:44when Chinese forces diverge from established patrolling patterns.
03:49Are we seeing, once again, the truth of what is happening on the Arunachal border slowly coming out?
03:57It's our top story tonight.
04:04The Kalwan clashes of 2020 marked the first deadly military confrontation
04:10between India and China since 1975.
04:13Indian soldiers and several Chinese soldiers died.
04:18And now, six years later, the Indo-Tibet border police director general
04:23has flacked fresh tensions along the Arunachal Pradesh border.
04:51The ITBP DG also asserted that dealing with China through traditional methods,
04:56is difficult.
04:59child has lifted off the� epilepsy
05:00By contrast, we have predicted its cameras ishanaية,
05:11but the results of that process carry out
05:14in other countries coming out here.
05:35The opposition quoted the ITB PDG's remarks to target Narendra Modi over the situation
05:42on India's border with China.
06:06The two sides have also agreed to discuss ways to improve understanding of LSE in appropriate
06:13areas for better border management.
06:15I would also like to emphasize that the maintenance of peace and tranquility in the border areas
06:22is essential for the overall development of bilateral relations.
06:29Prime Minister Modi and President Xi Jinping had recently met at the SEO summit and the
06:35triple handshake between the Indian Prime Minister, the Chinese President and Russian President
06:39Vladimir Putin had caught the world's attention.
06:43The face-off in Arunachal Pradesh is concerning considering that India and China had engaged
06:49in senior level talks to de-escalate tensions and had to a great extent succeeded.
06:56Vishwani Sharma, Bureau Report, India Today.
07:04Okay, joining me now are two of my guests on that Arunachal situation.
07:09Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, former DG Infantry Indian Army.
07:13Brahma Chalani, strategic affairs expert who writes on China extensively.
07:18I want to come to you first, Lieutenant General Kulkarni, do you believe this is concerning when
07:24and that these face-offs with Chinese troops are reportedly continuing at multiple locations
07:31in Arunachal Pradesh as per the ITBP chief?
07:34Why should it take so long for the seriousness of this to become public?
07:39Do you believe this is a cause for major concern?
07:44Thank you, Ratip.
07:46Not a cause of concern, but yes, we ought to be alert, vigilant.
07:50Because that is why we all are there.
07:52And the perception difference in the way we look at the LAC and the way the Chinese look at it.
07:59And well, if we know about it like in, let's say, Ladakh for instance,
08:03we have Bekartney-McDonald line, we have Johnson line.
08:05Most people wouldn't know the difference between the two.
08:08What is the Kunlun mountains?
08:09Where are the Karakaran ranges heading?
08:11Why is the difference over there?
08:13If we are saying 3,488 kilometers length of border LAC along with China,
08:18why do they say 2,000 kilometers?
08:20Why is there only Mackmont line 1,140?
08:23They go, we go along the Thresh Line, they go along the valley bottom.
08:27So this kind of a thing, therefore the perceptual difference and the historical legacy
08:31leaves this kind of petroleum.
08:33So you don't see anything unusual in this, General?
08:39Well, Rajdeep, I have been facing this all along.
08:42I have been there only in the same taxi area, in the same Waza area, everywhere.
08:46It isn't happening.
08:47They do come for patrolling, there isn't any fencing or anything.
08:50They feel perception they would be sitting there for some time, they go back, we come back.
08:54So there's nothing.
08:55It's stable.
08:56Right.
08:56Of course, we expect the Chinese to behave in the sense that definitely if you want peace
09:01and tranquility along the LAC, it would be better not to indulge.
09:05Okay.
09:05But there are agreements, there are means, there are banners, there are ways to ensure and
09:10to tell the Chinese, look, they have crossed their perceived line of LAC, we are here.
09:15Right.
09:16This is something which carries on.
09:17But situation would be stable.
09:19I'm 100% sure.
09:20Yeah.
09:21Okay.
09:21You're saying this is not unusual.
09:23Brahma Chalani, is this unusual or are we getting spooked by what happened in Galwan
09:30six years ago and therefore, when an ITBP chief speaks about standoffs in the region, we
09:37tend to worry, are we heading for another kind of face-off like situation?
09:43China continues to advance its expansionism through stealth and coercion rather than open
09:49warfare.
09:50That's crystal clear.
09:52The bigger question is, why should India get surprised repeatedly by Chinese encroachments?
10:00That issue we cannot sweep under the carpet.
10:05According to the Indo-Tibetan border police chief, the standoffs began in July, several
10:13months ago, when Chinese forces blocked Indian troops from returning to patrol.
10:18The Taksing area, which triggered additional face-offs elsewhere.
10:25So, the situation is clearly one of concern.
10:32And we have seen how in eastern Ladakh, China has presented, has created new military realities
10:40on the ground and presented them as faith-accomplete to India.
10:46The eastern Ladakh…
10:47But can we equate Arunachal Pradesh with what happened in eastern Ladakh?
10:52No.
10:52What is happening in Arunachal Pradesh?
10:54I'm not trying to equate the two.
10:57But the point to note is that after quietly altering the line of actual control in eastern
11:03Ladakh, China is now seeking to alter facts on the ground in another sector, which is a
11:12very sensitive sector, Arunachal Pradesh.
11:15And it has taken us more than three months even to recognize these multiple standoffs that
11:24are still persisting along the Himalayan border in Arunachal Pradesh.
11:30No, no.
11:31But I want to know, Dr. Chalani, what are India's options?
11:35You saw President Xi was in New Delhi just a few weeks ago for the BRICS summit.
11:41Are we saying that these issues, as General Kulkarni has pointed out, have been lingering
11:47for a while?
11:48There's no silver bullet solution to them.
11:51China continues to make claims on territory which we believe is very much ours in Arunachal
11:56Pradesh.
11:57Given the situation, do you believe at the end of the day the only answer is to engage
12:01with China?
12:03Engagement is fine.
12:04But let's be clear on one fundamental thing.
12:07The border may not be demarcated.
12:10And China does not want to demarcate that border because the negotiations between the
12:13two on the border have been going on since 1980 for 46 years.
12:18These are the longest border negotiations between any two countries in modern history.
12:23The key fact is this.
12:26Defense is much easier than offense.
12:30The attacker has to come to the defender.
12:33In mountain warfare especially, defense is much easier than offense.
12:39So India should not get surprised by Chinese encroachments.
12:47Because the border is not demarcated does not mean that India should lose its patrolling
12:52rights.
12:53Here, what was the trigger for the face-offs?
12:56According to the Indo-Tibetan border police chief, the face-off occurred because India, the
13:03Chinese forces tried to deny India the patrolling rights that Indian forces have had so far.
13:10Every time…
13:11The MEA has said…
13:12The MEA has said, Dr. Chilani, that these face-offs are occurring because China is deviating
13:17from established patrolling procedures.
13:19Exactly.
13:20That is accurate.
13:22The MEA statement is to the point.
13:26It is, of course, it's trying to downplay the developments.
13:33But it accurately frames the issue, which is how China seeks to deviate from established
13:43norms as well as the bilateral agreements that the two countries have signed on border
13:48management.
13:49The larger problem is that every time Modi and Xi Jinping meet, even for a brief handshake,
13:56the Indian media hails it as a diplomatic breakthrough, heralding yet another thaw in a relationship
14:03that remains fundamentally strained.
14:05And the bonhomie really survives more than a few days.
14:08And today we should not forget the larger picture.
14:12China is pressuring India both on the border and on the economy.
14:17It's territorial pressure plus economic coercion.
14:21To slow India's economic rise, China is increasingly employing export restrictions on manufacturing
14:28equipment, key industrial components, lithium, iron, and battery technologies, rare earths,
14:36and critical minerals.
14:37It's using all this as instruments of geopolitical leverage against India.
14:42This year, China has imposed a series of formal and informal India-specific export curves, which
14:51have been widely interpreted as efforts to slow India's emergence as an alternative global
14:57manufacturing hub.
14:59So, it's a dual front that China has opened.
15:04And we should have a more realistic assessment of what China is up to.
15:08Okay.
15:09I take your point.
15:10As a concluding statement, therefore, General Kolkarni, how well prepared are we?
15:15You see, the ITBP chief also said using drone technologies, drone tech is the key.
15:22They are something through which even a small country can challenge a big country.
15:26Look at how Ukraine has challenged a superpower like Russia.
15:30And we have gone to a large extent with drone and anti-drone systems.
15:35That's where our modernization funds are going.
15:37Are we prepared well enough to take on anything that the Chinese attempt in Arunachal?
15:43The Chinese believe that the supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without a fight.
15:50Reparation is a continuous procedure.
15:52We cannot say we are prepared.
15:53Always, we have to prepare.
15:55We have to modernize.
15:56We have to cope up with it.
15:57Our ability to better the enemy is very important.
16:01And therefore, even the DG's statement is like a cynic Samhainan.
16:06He's addressing his troops.
16:07Somewhere in Rajasthan trying to motivate his troops at the verge of his retirement.
16:11Reading too much in what he's wanting to say.
16:14You know, there are so many things I've said.
16:15No, no, he's saying, sir, in the past few days a situation arose where face-off happened at several locations
16:23in Arunachal and it still continues.
16:25That's a very serious statement to be making.
16:28Rajdeep, wherever the ITBP is there, the army is there.
16:32ITBP, of course, it's one-fourth and one border.
16:35ITBP is there, so are we.
16:37Everyone is there.
16:38So, we must not give too much.
16:41It's not confrontation.
16:42It's something that is a perceptual problem between the two countries, which have been on for so many years.
16:48I have faced it so many years back.
16:5025 years back, I faced it.
16:52Still, before I retired, I faced it.
16:54Now, last 10 years, I have retired.
16:56So, these kind of things have been on with China.
16:58And therefore, why do we always say that until and unless there's peace and equality along the LSE, the relations
17:05with China are not likely to improve?
17:07Why do we say that?
17:08Only for this reason.
17:09Why are we?
17:10We are always prepared.
17:11And that's not denying the fact.
17:12We are also up and above.
17:14We are vigilant.
17:15We know what they are doing.
17:16Yeah.
17:16I have 30 seconds, Brahma.
17:18I just want to ask you.
17:19Is it time for at least the government of India at the very top level, the MEA, the defence minister
17:24of the country, the external affairs minister of the country, and dare I say the prime minister?
17:27To send out tougher messages to China.
17:30A quick answer.
17:32I think so.
17:33You know, we should have a national debate.
17:34We should have a debate in parliament on China, which we have not had in a number of years.
17:39And most importantly, India needs to evolve from a posture of reactive defence to one of proactive deterrence along the
17:48Himalayas.
17:48But the Indo-Tibetan border police chief's remark that India cannot match China's conventional power today, that statement is very
18:00unfortunate.
18:01Because of power differentials, a symmetry is inherent in international relations.
18:08The parties are really equal in economic or military strength.
18:13Yet history shows that the stronger side does not necessarily prevail, whether on the battlefield or at the negotiating table.
18:21Outcomes between nations often depend less on material capabilities than on leadership, political will, national resilience, strategy, and tactics.
18:32In 1962, China thrashed India.
18:37But which side was stronger economically and militarily?
18:40India.
18:41The stronger side lost the 1962 war.
18:46China did not overtake India economically until the mid-1980s.
18:51Or look at Trump's Iran war.
18:53The world's most powerful military has been effectively checkmated by a much weaker Iran.
19:01So India doesn't need to match China's conventional power.
19:05India needs to shift from reactive defence to proactive deterrence.
19:13Otherwise, China will keep probing.
19:16Right.
19:17Keep looking for openings along the Himalayan frontier to make fresh encroachments.
19:23Let me leave it there, Brahma Chalani.
19:25That's a sobering thought on which to leave us.
19:27Thank you very much, General Khodkarni, Brahma Chalani for joining me on my top story tonight.
19:32Let me turn from there to another big story.
19:35An RTI application which has revealed details of an exchange between two election commissioners and the cabinet secretary.
19:44In a reply to an RTI query filed by Commodore Lokesh Batra,
19:48the government has now confirmed that two of the election commissioners, Sukhinder Sandhu and Vivek Joshi,
19:53wrote to the cabinet secretary, TV Somnathan, about the functioning of a deputy election commissioner, Manish Garg.
19:59The cabinet secretary sent an acknowledgement to the two ECs.
20:02It was also marked to the CEC's office so that he is informed.
20:06The cabinet secretary, however, noted that the letters cannot be taken as formal communication from the entire EC as they
20:12were written in an individual capacity.
20:15The cabinet secretary noted that if any action is taken, it can be construed as interference as the EC is
20:21a constitutional authority.
20:23So what is clear is that the election commission is split wide open or was split wide open.
20:28And more and more questions are being raised now.
20:32The latest is coming from Pilibhit in Uttar Pradesh, which, remember, goes to the polls in a few days from
20:39now.
20:40Irregularities here are being exposed.
20:43An inquiry ordered by the state CEO has found that more than 13,000 forms were processed without any documentation.
20:51Names of hundreds of voters, many from the minority community, were changed in the final list.
20:58The police have filed an FIR against three officials involved in the process.
21:03Saurabh Pandey and Samar Shrivastav on the latest questions over the way the election commission has conducted the SIR.
21:13A crackdown over voter list irregularities in Pilibhit in Uttar Pradesh.
21:18FIR registered against subdivisional magistrates Mayang Goswami and Himant Kumar.
21:24And computer operator Anil Kumar.
21:27Action was initiated after a probe ordered by Chief Electoral Officer Navdeep Rinwa found serious flaws in the final list
21:35prepared for Pilibhit after the SIR.
21:3913,779 entries were allegedly processed without documentation between May 31st and August 29th.
21:49Of these, 4,717 forms were allegedly processed during the tenure of SDM Mayang Goswami.
21:56And 9,062 forms during the tenure of SDM Himant Kumar.
22:0110,470 forms were approved and 3,309 rejected directly using ERO logins with zero supporting physical or digital verification
22:12records available on file.
22:14The inquiry cited breach of rules which mandate 10-person test checks, field verifications and active supervisions by EROs.
22:36The irregularities came to notice after advocate Faizan Ali found another name linked to his photo ID card or epic
22:44number.
22:56Advocate Faizan Ali posted a video which went viral and was noticed by local Congress leader who started checking the
23:04roles.
23:05When the day of the video was going viral, the day I have downloaded all the data.
23:093,488,937 numbers on the app and checked it.
23:16Then there are 16,504 names that I have kept in front of you.
23:21This is the data that we have kept in front of the city media.
23:32The election commission is facing serious questions over the manner in which the special intensive revision was carried out.
23:42The revelations in Pili Bheet now cast a shadow on the voter list, repaired in other seats too.
23:50With Saurabh Pandey and Samarth Srivastav, Bureau Report, India Today.
23:58And interestingly, while the election commission faces the heat from the opposition,
24:02it has quietly changed many of the procedures in the SIR after it became public that the two election commissioners
24:09had raised multiple objections on many issues with the Chief Election Commissioner, Gyanesh Kumar.
24:15Some of these changes have now been implemented in Delhi, one of the states badly impacted by the SIR.
24:22Aishwarya Paliwal gets us a report on what the EC is now doing to try and ease the procedure for
24:28voters who find their names off the electoral rolls.
24:32Take a look.
24:38The election commission, under fire from the opposition over the special intensive revision of electoral rolls,
24:46has eased norms over the last few weeks to help voters.
24:51Changes to Form 6, that mandated mapping with parents or grandparents in 2002 list is dropped for non-SIR states.
25:00Booth-level officers in Delhi will visit homes of voters who were issued notices for logical discrepancy.
25:07Technical experts are checking if ECINET software is compliant with laws.
25:13Special camps will be held to get eligible deleted voters back on the rolls.
25:18Special summary revision has started, which means first-time voters can be added now.
25:24Restrictions have been put on the number of Form 7s for deletions that can be filed by a person,
25:30and machine-readable copies of electoral rolls will be provided to the parties.
25:38Some of these changes are already applied in Delhi, which saw 47.57 lakh voters deleted from the list,
25:45and another 33.13 lakh issued notices.
25:49Booth-level officers are now tasked with adding voters to the list.
26:21BLOs are visiting homes.
26:28A very proactive approach of door-to-door visits and verification and document collection.
26:35Very convenient, you can say, mechanism was updated onto the ECINET portal,
26:41which ensured that even without mandating any document collection, the ERO can pass a speaking order.
26:52The EC says issuing notices does not mean deletion from the list.
27:01Our BLO is a description of the notice.
27:05It doesn't mean that you will cut your name today.
27:09It will be updated.
27:10It will correct our database and it will be updated.
27:14It is a kind of KYC type.
27:15One of the things that the Election Commission definitely has done,
27:18and a lot of people are saying they have done so because of the opposition pressure,
27:22is that they have eased out the rules.
27:25The BLOs we spoke with also say the same thing,
27:27that the rules in fact have been eased out and this is helping them.
27:31This in fact is helping in getting names added to the voter list.
27:36This is the final say.
27:37The rules have been relaxed and the rules have now been made much easier.
27:41With Cameraperson Ajay, this is Aishwarya Paliwal reporting for India Today.
27:46Okay, so let's raise the big questions then on our talking point linked to those stories.
27:51Cost correction by the Election Commission, is it enough or too little too late?
27:56Should accountability above all be fixed for the errors made?
28:00Should the Election Commission come clean on what's gone wrong?
28:04Has the time come for a joint presser of all the three Election Commissioners?
28:09Joining me now is former Chief Election Commissioner Dr. S.Y. Qureshi,
28:13former Election Commissioner Ashok Lavasa and senior BJP leader
28:18and former Rajya Sabha MP GVL Narsimha Rao.
28:21Good to have all of you on the show.
28:23I want to come to you Mr. Lavasa first because we have seen and you've described
28:27the EC's recent decisions as possible cost correction after the controversy surrounding SIR.
28:34EC has changed the Form 6 procedures, ordered house-to-house consultations,
28:40initiated an ECI net review and resumed special summary revision,
28:44also re-looking at Form 7.
28:47Do you believe this is enough or do you believe accountability must be fixed for what has gone wrong?
28:54Thank you, Rajji. First of all, I think that the changes that have been made were inevitable
29:01if the ECI wanted to redeem themselves for the past mistakes.
29:07At the same time, I feel that it is an admission of the mistakes that they committed
29:15because the SIR was quite a botched-up process and quite unnecessary given the fact that many of the decisions
29:26which were taken earlier are now being rolled back.
29:29But I think the principal issue now would not only be that so many crores of people were disenfranchised quite
29:39unfairly,
29:40but to fix the accountability on who took these decisions and why were these decisions taken.
29:47Because we know, leave aside all the allegations that opponents or other critics might have made,
29:55but one of the election commissioners himself called out the decisions and said they were illegal and unauthorized.
30:03So why were those decisions taken? And apart from the merit or demerit of those decisions,
30:11is also the question whether the ECI was functioning as a collective body
30:16or these were decisions taken by an individual unilaterally.
30:22So I think all these things have to be accounted for.
30:24So you're saying, let me summarize what you've said, you're saying it's not enough for cost corrections.
30:32Those who are inevitable, given the errors made, you're calling for something more,
30:36which is accountability being fixed.
30:38But who's going to fix that accountability?
30:40Who's going to fix the accountability, Mr. Lavasa?
30:43Because the chief election commissioner is a constitutional body.
30:45Who's going to tell the CEC, Gyanesh Kumar Ji, you have heard you need to take accountability?
30:51Well, I think the fact that they have gone back on some of the decisions does mean that there is
30:58an ambition, as I said.
31:00So if they have, they should explain why those decisions were taken in the first place
31:06and what was the reason why they have been rolled back now.
31:09So it is not enough to admit a guilt, but equally in public life, I think it calls for fixing
31:19responsibility.
31:20And not only that, I think, Rajdeep, what we need to understand is that here is a case
31:26where millions of people were put to difficulty, where millions of people were actually deprived of their right to vote.
31:35And there was a case of mass anxiety.
31:39But quite apart from this, I would feel that in public life, whatever be the decision-making body,
31:46whether it is constitutional or statutory, ultimately, I think we are all spending public money.
31:53And if crores of rupees have been spent on an ill-conceived exercise, the outcome of which has to be
32:02assessed in terms of the objectives that were set out.
32:05So I think it does call for an independent evaluation of what the EC wanted to achieve, whether it has
32:13been able to achieve that.
32:15And if so much money has been spent, public money, without any purpose, surely it is a case for identifying
32:23the person who is responsible for this.
32:26I am just going to push you one more time before I go.
32:28Who is going to do this? Are you calling for an independent audit of the Election Commission's decisions?
32:34Are you saying the President of India, to whom the Election Commission at the end of the day is accountable
32:39for, has to order this?
32:40Who is going to do it?
32:41The Cabinet Secretary, as we have seen today in the RTI, has already washed his hands.
32:46When the two other Election Commissioners went there and questioned some of the decisions taken by Gyanesh Kumar,
32:51the Cabinet Secretary said, we don't want to intervene, that the Election Commission is independent.
32:55I'll ask you again a quick answer. Who will ensure accountability?
33:02Rajdeep, I think it's a very good question. And here is a case of a huge challenge to the system.
33:09Because there are many institutions which are responsible to take those decisions,
33:15whether it is the Supreme Court, or it is the Parliament, or it is the individual himself.
33:21I think the ball squarely lies in their court. And I would feel that it is a challenge to the
33:30entire system as to who will break this stalemate.
33:34You know, I'll come back to you, circle back to you in a moment to maybe push you even further.
33:40But Dr. Qureshi, you've gone a step further than even Mr. Lavasa.
33:44I saw a recent interview where you're actually saying the decisions were not just errors, they were malified.
33:49And when you said malified, you even went to the extent of saying the West Bengal elections, for example,
33:54results should be annulled and fresh elections held.
33:56Now, that's taking a very, many will say, a very extreme position.
34:00But as Ashok Lavasa there is saying, accountability, he believes, needs to be fixed.
34:04Yes, the EC has made certain cost corrections, but that's not enough.
34:07He claims, he says, accountability must be fixed.
34:10You've said that decisions are malified, so they must be all reversed.
34:14Yes, I entirely agree with every word of what Mr. Lavasa said.
34:19And I would like to add that, obviously, if the actions have been illegal, the decisions were being taken by
34:26one individual.
34:27And I have written with the headline in the newspaper, Indian Express, the chief election commissioner is not the election
34:33commission.
34:34It is the majority of the three which is the election commission.
34:37So if he was taking a unilateral decision, there were no decisions of the election commission.
34:42And therefore, they're illegal.
34:44And anything illegal has to be undone.
34:47Already, they have mercifully, some rollback has started.
34:50But it is still halfway, still much left to be desired.
34:57But the election should be annulled, because the West Bengal elections were totally evitiated, and as has been proved by
35:07subsequent development,
35:11and the fact that the election commission itself has started rolling back, without saying so.
35:16Instead of saying that we are cancelling all that, they're still trying to be too clever by half.
35:20You know, now, the same electoral roll of January 2025, which they threw into the trash can.
35:28It's useless, useless.
35:30We will do it afresh.
35:31Now, they say, OK, please, fish out those 2025 rolls, and see if anybody has been deleted from there.
35:38Bring them back.
35:40Now, this is half the story.
35:41Bring them back.
35:42Fine.
35:42Very good.
35:43Thank you very much.
35:44But second, bring them back through Form 6, which, as I have pointed out through a tweet,
35:50is illegal.
35:51You can create another Form 6.
35:53I said, Form 6X.
35:55Create another.
35:56Don't commit the same illegality.
35:57Because you are saying, Form 6 is for...
35:59You have said that Form 6 is for new voters.
36:01So, if you hand over Form 6 to a voter who has already been rejected, it's a...
36:06It's prima facie and illegality.
36:08Am I correct?
36:09Absolutely.
36:10And in fact, it has a serious implication with the kind of credibility which these guys have earned.
36:14Now, they force you to sign on a new applicant form.
36:19Rajdeep, I've never been enrolled anywhere else.
36:24And if I lie, I'm liable to a one-year imprisonment.
36:27That is Form 6.
36:28And they have...
36:29They are forcing people to sign this Form 6.
36:32And in the next step, what they would have done, the way they were carrying on, that they
36:37will launch a big movement of putting all these people who formed Form 6 falsely into jail.
36:45Fortunately, abutment of crime is also equal offence.
36:49The people who are forcing...
36:50But they were denied.
36:51I never forced Rajdeep to sign it.
36:54He himself did it.
36:55So...
36:55No, no, but your...
36:57No, no, but where does the blame lie?
36:59If all these decisions are now being reversed, rolled back, cost corrected,
37:03does the blame lie only on Gyanesh Kumar's door or all three?
37:07Because the three election commissioners in their press release have said decisions were unanimous.
37:10So, today we are saying that...
37:13No, I want clarity.
37:15The fact is, do we only put the accountability to be fixed at Gyanesh Kumar's door or all three
37:20election commissioners will have to answer?
37:21Should they have a joint press conference?
37:24Yes, certainly.
37:25I've been asking for a joint press conference for sure.
37:28But primarily, it's a responsibility of the CEC.
37:31The other two also, it is easy to expect that they should have been out in the open
37:35and they should have been protesting.
37:37But the very fact that you and I are discussing this issue,
37:40because they were creating evidence.
37:42They wrote objections 14 times in 10 months.
37:45That is what brought out the illegality of the whole thing.
37:49Therefore, instead of blaming them that is a diversion,
37:52we can do their post-mortem three months later.
37:54But at the moment, the guy who did it,
37:57singly ignoring the other two, which is what their protest is about,
38:03has to be held accountable, because he put India into anarchy.
38:07That is the biggest anarchy which has happened.
38:10You know, but the question is whether the other two then should have raised the red flag in other ways,
38:14other than just writing to the cabinet secretary,
38:16who's already put his hands up and says, I don't want to intervene in this,
38:19but I want to bring in GBL Narasimha Rao.
38:21You're hearing very strong words.
38:23Dr. Qureshi has gone to the extent of saying, cancel the West Bengal election.
38:27This is malefied what happened in 25, 26.
38:30Ashok Lavasa is saying, accountability has to be fixed.
38:33You were smiling right through.
38:35As a politician, sophologist, do you believe that now the questions are getting more and more serious?
38:40The very fact all these rollbacks are taking place is an effective admission that things were going wrong.
38:47Rajdeep, good evening to you and both the former Chief Election Commissioners.
38:53I'm actually, I won't speak as a politician today.
38:56I'm not here only to speak on the political lines.
39:00But Dr. Qureshi said he agrees with every word spoken by Mr. Lavasa.
39:05And I disagree with every word spoken by all three of you.
39:10And I'll tell you why.
39:12Every word spoken by Mr. Lavasa, Dr. Qureshi, and some observations made by you as well, Rajdeep.
39:18I think this SIR is a long overdue exercise.
39:22It's very unfortunate that this country has not had an intensive, special intensive revision for nearly two decades plus, for
39:3122 years.
39:32Honestly, I think that is a crime.
39:35Because world over, these intensive revisions happen on a periodic basis.
39:40In the US, for instance, this was held in 22, between 2020 and 22.
39:46In India, we have special summary revisions every year.
39:50In India, are you saying all these special summary revisions were of no use?
39:54I will share a copy of this report to you.
39:57This is a voter list maintenance activity by the US Election Assistance Commission.
40:04And they carry out almost after every two cycles of presidential elections.
40:09This is carried out on a nationwide basis.
40:12And between 2016 and 2022 cycle, in a span of six years, let me give you the number of 9
40:23% of voters.
40:2420 million voters in US were purged from the voter list.
40:2920 million.
40:30And that comes to about 9.5%.
40:33Let me complete.
40:34And here you have 22 years this has not been done.
40:37And I would like to understand why it has taken such a long time.
40:42No, no.
40:42But GVL, no one is...
40:44No, no.
40:44GVL, there will be those who will say it's not about SIR.
40:47It's the way it's been executed.
40:48No, let me complete.
40:48You see, nobody...
40:49It's not about SIR.
40:50It's the way it's been executed.
40:52I am placing...
40:53I am countering arguments against three of you.
40:55Please allow me time.
40:56Then you can...
40:57No, no.
40:57Not me.
40:57Don't get me involved.
40:59Okay.
41:00Against the two former commissioners, even they are speaking from experience.
41:04But I want to quote experience.
41:05As I told you, this is U.S. experience.
41:08And in the previous six-year cycle, it was even more than this.
41:12So, on an average, every six years, nearly 10% of U.S. voters get deleted, purged from
41:20voter lists.
41:21Here we have India, where it has taken 22 long years, 24 years for us to complete this
41:27exercise.
41:27So, there is no wonder that the deletions are to the tune of 13%, 14%.
41:32I am not saying that there may not be eligible voters who got deleted.
41:36But that is...
41:37But statistically speaking, I am an election expert.
41:39I have closely watched elections.
41:42And I am speaking from that experience.
41:43And I quote you from another U.K. Parliamentary Committee.
41:48This is a U.K. Parliamentary Committee, which recently said 8 million voters.
41:54All these are public documents.
41:56You can quickly Google and you will get some of them.
41:598 million voters are likely to get disenfranchised because of the voter reform measures being
42:06taken by the U.K. Electoral Commission.
42:09They are the equivalent of an election commission of India in the U.K.
42:13They are saying, the members of Parliament across political parties are saying, if you implement
42:18this reform, 8 million people will lose.
42:21So, these are...
42:22I think there are reform measures being taken all over the world.
42:26I am not speaking for this election commission or one officer, one chief election commissioner.
42:32But I think this is a long overdue cleaning, purging exercise that was required.
42:38There are pretty confusing issues between an SIR taking place and the way it was done.
42:44It is the way it was done.
42:46No, no.
42:47Let me tell you the need for the exercise, first of all.
42:50Because there are a lot of people who don't know why SIR is required.
42:53Let me give you another statistic.
42:55In 2014, the number of registered voters in India was 2 crores more than the population.
43:0318 plus age population as per census data.
43:07In India, how can you have more?
43:09Because census actually only counts number of usual citizens.
43:13It doesn't even count citizens, the usual residents.
43:17And in India, in 2014, you had 23.4 crores registered voters, 834 million,
43:26whereas their population could not have been more than 810 million.
43:31So, where did these 2 extra crores?
43:33So, this is because…
43:34Can I…
43:35One second.
43:35Let me complete, Rajdeep.
43:37Because this is a perspective that should go across to your people, the viewers.
43:40So, number one, there was a massive need for doing a voter purge based on verifiable ground level indicator.
43:50And here, you have done this for the first time, you have in the special revision, people going door to
43:55door.
43:56Several visits were made.
43:57So, therefore, if some voters got deleted despite this, they now have an opportunity to get enrolled.
44:03But to say it was done with a malafide intent, to say this was done to benefit a political party,
44:09that is where you are getting into politics.
44:12Okay.
44:12And people of the country, let me tell you, repeatedly, I've heard views that people have lost confidence.
44:17There's no, sir.
44:19It is as…
44:20People have as much trust in the election commission of India today, as much trust in the outcome of elections,
44:25as when you helped it.
44:27Or before it.
44:28Election commission…
44:29Because otherwise, you would have seen a different public response.
44:32I've heard you very patiently.
44:32A few people coming onto the streets doesn't make a national voice.
44:37I'm not going into the politics.
44:39Dr. Qureshi, you want to respond though.
44:41Here is JBL Narasimha Rao saying this was much needed, and this was a clean-up that was waiting over
44:47years to happen.
44:48Very fine.
44:49You know, I'm a great admirer of JBL Narasimha Rao.
44:53He's a thorough gentleman and very erudite.
44:56But with a due apology, you wasted six minutes of this program time discussing US and UK, which was irrelevant.
45:03Talk of India.
45:04Now, why is some reversal taking place?
45:08Who is taking back the orders of the last one and a half years?
45:11The election commission itself.
45:12So, let us focus on that.
45:13Why do they have to take it back?
45:15Let us examine that.
45:17And the fact that the other two gentlemen have been raising exactly those kind of issues,
45:22till today, let us demand that we want to know what were those 14 issues on which they wrote protest
45:28note,
45:29which was revealed by the newspaper.
45:32We would like to know exactly what was happening inside.
45:35The other two gentlemen themselves.
45:36Are you saying all of this has to become a paper trail?
45:39Are you saying that needs to be a paper trail made public, Dr. Qureshi?
45:43Absolutely.
45:44It's such a national issue, such a national crisis, national anarchy, and we must know what happened.
45:51It's such a way.
45:52Those 14 objections of those 10 months are absolutely essential for us to know.
46:00Mr. Lawasa, you know, JVL Narsimha Rao is saying both of you, both the election commissioners on my panel are
46:06giving a political viewpoint.
46:08He says this was much needed and therefore should be seen in that context as a clean-up of the
46:13roles.
46:15Yeah, Ragdeep, I don't think that we are, at least nobody is bringing politics in this.
46:22The point is quite straightforward.
46:24There are two dimensions to the entire issue of SIR.
46:29One is the controversy surrounding the manner in which SIR is being done and whether the election commission should have
46:38done SIR or not.
46:39I think those are controversies and much can be said on both sides.
46:45But I think here we are also dealing with the issue of certain alleged illegalities.
46:51And in the case of Form 6, I don't think it is any longer an alleged illegality, because we know
46:59that Form 6 has been changed.
47:01We know that election commissions admitted that they did change the form.
47:05We also know that they attributed it to the Supreme Court upholding the changes in Form 6.
47:12So, when you commit illegalities, which are alleged no lesser than the election commissioners themselves, I think it's a very
47:23serious matter.
47:24And I don't know whether there is a history of the Supreme Court being asked to adjudicate upon the legality
47:33of a decision which has been taken by the election commission.
47:38And mind you, here we are also looking at a case where the election commissioners are saying that for a
47:45year, no minutes have been drawn.
47:48So, if no minutes have been drawn, how do you know whether the decisions were taken by unanimity or by
47:54a majority?
47:56So, those are the issues which call for accountability.
47:59You know, therefore, JBL, in conclusion, the fact is all these changes that the election commission is now making,
48:06Form 6 procedures, suddenly house to house consultation being accepted, ECI net review, resumed special summary revision.
48:13All of them suggest that the election commission is effectively admitting we got it wrong.
48:18Then there would be no rollback, rollback after rollback, even Form 7 is being rolled back.
48:22The number of people who can file objections for deletion.
48:25Something has gone wrong.
48:26You see, we have to make the distinction between having an SIR and the way it was executed.
48:33No, Rajdeep, so first I established there was a need for a long overdue SIR.
48:38Now, the so-called objection…
48:39No, that's your view. That's a debatable question.
48:41That's a debatable question, but that's your view. I take your view.
48:44You know, if you think 22 years doesn't require a special revision, then I think people will make a decision
48:50on this.
48:51The world needs it, does it more frequently. We should do it at least every six years, every seven years.
48:58Okay, that's your view.
48:58After two parliamentary elections. That's my view.
49:00I would make this a humble suggestion to the election commission actually.
49:04Right.
49:04Don't do it after 20 years. You will end up with this kind of public criticism.
49:10Right.
49:10But here, this is the press note of the election commission of India.
49:13So, both our honourable former commissioners mentioned that two of them disagreed with the SIR process
49:20and repeated statements from the election commission of India say all decisions were made unanimously.
49:28So, therefore…
49:29So, why don't they come before the public? Why don't they even have a press conference together?
49:32Rajdeep…
49:33Let them have a press conference. Why did they write to the cabinet?
49:35If all decisions were unanimous, why did they write to the cabinet, secondly?
49:38As somebody who has actually interacted with the election commission of India for many years.
49:44When Honourable Khureshi, Dr. Khureshi was a CEC, I was a better critic on some issues.
49:50And I know every institution has a certain style of functioning.
49:54They disagreed with everything that we said.
49:56But let me tell you, they carried out several reforms after we talked about them.
50:03They carried out because there is always a scope for improvement.
50:06There is always…
50:07So, a commission of election commission of India and every institution must be open to ideas, suggestions,
50:14criticism must be open to them and constantly improve.
50:18This is not to deny the need for SIR.
50:21But certainly, whether there is an illegality or not, it's for the election Supreme Court to decide.
50:26And that they are the ultimate authority.
50:28Mr. Ravasa, I wondered whether the Supreme Court has the oversight.
50:31Certainly, over Parliament, over Election Commission of India and every other constitutional body,
50:38as far as matters of legality are concerned, Supreme Court is the final authority.
50:43So, let's wait for their verdict.
50:45Okay, we'll wait for that.
50:46I mean, I'm willing to wait for that.
50:48But I think there are important issues of accountability which really have been raised.
50:53And I think we need to face them.
50:55Constitutional bodies are not above the law.
50:58Let's be very clear about that.
50:59But I appreciate my guests joining me on my show tonight.
51:03Let's turn to tonight's Get Real India story.
51:05This festive season, the sweetness of celebrations could come at a higher price.
51:11Sugar has jumped to 58 rupees to 60 rupees a kilo, even higher in some markets.
51:16And Maharashtra's sugar production could fall by as much as 10 lakh metric tons this year
51:21due to drought in several districts.
51:24Will festive sweets get costlier?
51:26Let's take a look at tonight's ground report, Get Real India.
51:51Sugar prices could prove a dampener this Diwali.
51:59The price of sugar has increased from around 40 to 45 rupees per kilogram to 58 to 60 rupees.
52:07There is more to worry.
52:09It is estimated that sugar production in Maharashtra could decline by approximately 10 lakh metric tons.
52:16Drought is likely to adversely affect sugarcane yields, which in turn could impact sugar production.
52:27The prospect of rising sugar prices ahead of Diwali has raised concerns among the average.
52:53Other rise in sugar prices would mean sweets will get expensive.
52:59The weight of global warming.
53:02The price of Diwali is now on the daily basis in the current period,
53:04which is hospital and local income levels.
53:04Now, the period is now confirmed our budget to increase our budget.
53:07The things we will make in Diwali,
53:08such as the cream that we make in Diwali,
53:10such as the eating things,
53:12is the same of the food and the food that isنا,
53:14our budget will increase our budget.
53:16We don't need to grow.
53:17The diet of beans will grow because Diwali is coming,
53:19so there will be also the mild beans and the trading ofげet from their food.
53:26Last year, Maharashtra had recorded sugar production of 99 lakh metric tons.
53:32Production this year is estimated to decline to 89 lakh metric tons.
53:38The extent to which this projected decline in production will drive up retail sugar prices
53:44will depend on market demand, available stock and government policies.
53:51With Shri Krishna Panchal, Bureau Report, India Today.
54:19has bettered India's 2023 performance in Hwangsao, where the contingent officially finished with 108 medals.
54:26One of the stars, once again, Ace Acha Sheetal Devi, who retained her women's compound individual crown.
54:32She also won the mixed team title with Toman Kumar.
54:35We wish her and all the athletes who've done such incredible stuff for India at the Paralympic Games,
54:41the very best. We hope to have them in the studio when they return.
54:45For now, stay well, stay safe.
54:48Jai Hind. Namaskar.