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Catch up with all the latest political news across the county with Finn Macdiarmid.
This week we were joined by two Kent County Councillors, Stuart Jeffrey for the Greens, and Paul Thomas representing Restore Britain to discuss the campaign against developing Oaken Wood and a Green victory at a Dover by-election.
This week we were joined by two Kent County Councillors, Stuart Jeffrey for the Greens, and Paul Thomas representing Restore Britain to discuss the campaign against developing Oaken Wood and a Green victory at a Dover by-election.
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00:20Hello and welcome to the Kent Politics Show here on KMTV. I'm Finn McDermott and coming up,
00:26Kent County Council may have voted to plough ahead with plans to quarry on ancient woodland,
00:30but friends of Oakenwood campaigners are far from giving up. But first, last week saw Reform UK lose
00:37out on Dover District Council's seat by just 34 votes after the right-wing vote was split three
00:43ways by newcomer Restore Britain and the previous holder of the seat, the Conservatives, leading the
00:48Green Party to buy election victory, which isn't their first in recent times. Our local democracy
00:53reporter Olly Leder was there to cover everything.
01:06In the end, there were just 34 votes in it, a hotly contested by-election for Guston,
01:14Kingsdown and St Margaret at Cliff.
01:17This by-election has been described as the fight for the right, with the Conservatives facing down
01:23Reform UK and Restore Britain in their first big election contest here in the county. But looking
01:31left, the Green Party managed to edge them all out in a very narrow victory.
01:37I think the Green Party is absolutely burgeoning as more and more people see the light and realise
01:44that we mustn't condescendingly look after poor old nature, that we are a part of nature,
01:51we are a part of the world and we're only going to save ourselves by appreciating our situation.
01:59So I just don't feel the right wing comes into it.
02:02With a 45% turnout, the count was a nail-biter, one which the Reform UK candidate James DeFriend
02:09did not attend due to childcare duties. In the end, he got 733 votes, to the Greens 767.
02:19Reform UK has pointed the finger to Restore Britain, eating into their vote share.
02:25The hard-right party managed to secure more than 10% of the vote, one of its best-ever electoral
02:32performances.
02:34This spitting-the-vote concept, I don't buy into it, we're different parties. The reality
02:39is we probably took a chunk out of the Reform vote, which for us as a party demonstrates
02:45that we are here, we're here to stay and we're pleased with that.
02:50The Conservatives trail to third place in the contest, Labour even further behind in fourth.
02:57For the Greens though, this was a big night. Not only their first-ever councillor on the
03:02White Cliffs, but the second time it has beaten Reform UK in a by-election, it was tipped
03:08to win after trouncing the right-wing party in Margate back in April.
03:14But even then, there's no doubt that this victory came down to the tightest of margins.
03:20Olly Leader in Whitfield.
03:25Well, I'm now joined by Greens Kent County Councillor Stuart Geoffrey and the leader of Kent County
03:30Council's Restore Britain faction, Paul Thomas. Welcome to the both of you. I'll come to you
03:35first, Paul. Now, seeing as reform lost by less votes than what Restore Britain gained,
03:40would you say that it was down to restore that reform lost?
03:43Well, you heard from Jez on that clip, we don't buy it anymore, that it's splitting
03:47the vote. There's an arrogance within reform that they believe that they own the vote share,
03:53anything right of Labour. They're obviously not gaining the support from sufficient numbers
03:59in their own that they have to seek to blame others, rather than amend their policies to
04:04ensure that they get the relevant number. We're growing as a party. Within six months of setting
04:10up, we've gained over 10% of the vote, which if you compare that with reform, it took them
04:1518 months to get to that point. So we're a serious party offering something different,
04:20and that's where we're going to continue to be.
04:23So you wouldn't say that Restore split the vote? You wouldn't say it's down to Restore that
04:28the Greens got in?
04:28Well, if you look at the other part of the story, the Conservatives, what do they, hemorrhage 16%
04:32of their support? And reform are constantly saying, we're going to destroy the Conservatives.
04:39Well, they haven't done that. So they're failing to get that additional support that they need
04:44to get over the line.
04:45Stuart, would you agree with that notion? You think it was a clean sweep for the Greens,
04:49or do you think it was more due to this right-wing split that they opened the door for you?
04:53I really don't care what happens on the right. They can squabble all they like. It was a really
04:59good victory for us. Ingrid's a great candidate and now a great councillor. We've got a foothold
05:05on Dover and District Council. We're winning across the country and across Kent, and we'll
05:11continue to do that. If other parties want to squabble about why they lost, that's up to
05:16them. What they need to do is get more votes than us if they want to beat us. We're taking
05:20the votes and we're getting the seats. I see. Well, it was certainly impressive. It was a
05:23historically Conservative seat, but you say you're winning across Kent. I mean, she's now
05:28the only Green councillor in a Dover District by-election. Is it something to be excited
05:33about when she has little power against a majority Labour council?
05:36Yeah, well, 2022, I was the only Green on Maidstone Borough Council. By 2024, I was leader
05:43of Maidstone Borough Council. You know, we get a foothold. People like what we're doing,
05:47like what we're saying, like how we work, and they start, local people start to really
05:52appreciate and vote for us.
05:54I see. Paul, local elections don't really get very high turnout, but this one had a
05:59turnout of about 45%. Why do you think more people are turning up to the ballot box?
06:02Do you think it's because there's more parties fighting?
06:06Plus, you've got, with by-elections, by definition, you've got more foot soldiers you can throw into
06:12the area, reform three and some particularly big characters into the area, which demonstrated
06:17that even with that extra push, they still didn't achieve what they required.
06:22Do you agree? Stuart, you think the same sort of thing?
06:24I think by-elections have changed. Certainly when I've been standing in elections for over
06:2920 years, and by-elections used to have a very low turnout. I think we're seeing quite a shift,
06:34and that's a good, obviously a great thing. And the fact that parties are campaigning to win seats
06:42is the right thing to do. So, yeah, I welcome it, and I think the world of politics is definitely
06:48changing.
06:49I see. And Greens won against reform. On the sofa now, we've got a Green politician and a
06:56Restore politician. Is the traditional two-party politics of Conservatives and Labour over? Can we
07:01declare it here on the Kent Politics Show? Absolutely. I mean, and I think one of the
07:05things we, I don't know if Paul agrees, but, you know, one of the things you can't have with
07:09two-part, with multi-party politics is, is a first-past-the-post-electoral system. It's high
07:14time we, we had a radical and fast review of how we vote and how people are elected, because, frankly,
07:22you know, Paul's talking about 10% of, of the, of the vote in places. Well, he's not got 10
07:29% of
07:29councillors in places, so, and certainly MPs. So, um, you know, the, the, the, the mechanism
07:34doesn't work for multi-party politics, so we need a new one.
07:37But surely having more parties in that style of voting would lead to potentially more hung
07:42parliaments at the highest level?
07:43What's wrong with that? Well, what's wrong with coalitions? You get really good decision-making.
07:49I, I lead a coalition on Mason and Borough Council. I, I, I work with lead colleagues. We don't
07:55fall out. We have different ideas. We come together. We produce a really good government,
08:01local government. And I think that's more powerful than having a one-party state.
08:06Well, that's all well and good. But I mean, you can agree that politics can be divisive
08:10in other areas, as well as you might be getting along with your counts. It's not always the case.
08:14But first-past-the-post absolutely drives that. You look at parliament, it's built for opposition.
08:19It's built for conflict. You look at other countries, look at the rest of Europe that doesn't
08:24use first-past-the-post. They have a much more collegiate system. They come with ideas.
08:29Paul and I were talking about this earlier. You come with different ideas. You don't fall
08:33out over them. You debate them and you come up with sensible solutions.
08:36Paul, what do you think?
08:40It's obviously tricky because somebody's got to get into government to change the rules.
08:44But it will be more representative of the people of Kent. But the way I look at it is,
08:49if you say, for example, just compare Norfolk, where Reform and Restore are working together,
08:57you then compare it at Kent County Council. Look at the last full council meeting. I reached
09:02out to the leader of the council saying, look, can we all work together? Because there's a bigger
09:07picture in Kent, especially with ALGR coming up, and we need to work together. It was a flat,
09:12no, I'm not interested. So that sort of message is divisive and it isn't doing what we want.
09:18Our politics are completely different, but it doesn't mean that we don't all represent our
09:25electorate and our residents and bring those into the chamber to discuss these are the issues we
09:30see it. Then when it comes down to politics, it's whoever's in control, then makes a decision how
09:35you deliver it. But if you're not working together, it's the unintended consequences that you're not
09:40picking up on.
09:42I see. Well, a rare handshake across the council chamber there. I do have to mention, obviously,
09:46you two are from smaller parties compared to the traditional ones. And reform...
09:51I'm not sure. We've got far more members than the Conservatives, probably overtaken Labour by now,
09:56so I'm not sure I agree that we're from a smaller party. But hey, historically, let's say.
10:00Historically small.
10:01But likewise, we're pushing 150,000 members. And in my constituency area, we're growing
10:07in membership on a regular basis. Now the message is getting out that we're here to stay.
10:12Today, you'll see the rise.
10:15I see. But in Dover, you only got just over 200. In what should be, aligning with Restore's
10:20core values, a very good seat for them.
10:22Yeah.
10:23Do you agree with that?
10:23But what you've got to remember is when I was down there, because I purposely went down there
10:26myself to here, a lot of people still in the peripheral areas hadn't heard of Restore
10:31and what we really meant. And that's simply because the media doesn't give you the fair
10:36say on it. The press doesn't give you the fair say on it. So if you're one of the more
10:41established parties, it was no different to reform. When they first started, nobody had
10:45heard of them. They weren't being given time on there. But it was just a big figurehead
10:50that eventually you couldn't ignore them. We're now on the polls, so people can actually
10:56see that we are growing.
10:57Stuart, I feel like you want to jump in here.
10:59The idea that reform didn't have a platform and Nigel Farage is on, it feels like every
11:05single question time that the BBC ever put on. I mean, so I disagree fundamentally with
11:09you.
11:09Yeah, but he was in the early days. They weren't given the airtime. But anyway, it's not about
11:14reform. It's about Restore. Greens did well down there. They beat the others because
11:18they got the biggest vote share. We're saying just watch this space because we are growing.
11:24I see. Well, that's all the time we have for this part. Thank you both so much. And we'll
11:27be right back after this very short break. We'll be talking all about Oaken Wood. That
11:33is, of course, an area in the Aylesford sort of area where there's an area of Kentish Ragstone.
11:41We'll be getting on to exactly why that's important and exactly why we should be talking about it
11:46across the council chamber. All that and more after this very short break. See you in a few minutes.
12:25.
12:26.
12:34.
22:10So,
22:11thank you,
22:41you know,
23:10make your case,
23:12you know,
23:13you're up there and
23:13you're up there and look at the
23:14and look at the existing quarry, the mitigation areas, they're introducing additional features
23:20in there like ponds, which is incurring a wider diverse species within those areas. So,
23:29there's a lot of things that, I'm not an expert in the field. I know the Greens have done a
23:34lot of work on it, but it really needs an expert who set the rules to decide which way it
23:41goes.
23:41So,
23:42So, you wouldn't agree with Stuart's position that you could almost have a best of both worlds mining some of
23:47these other earmarked sites of Kentish Ragstone to mine those essential materials and not destroy the 41 hectares of ancient
23:53wood?
23:53Unfortunately, those sites didn't come forward.
23:55So, what I would suggest to anybody else is, make the case to bring them forward.
24:01Because, and if you don't believe that that process was adequately done, challenge it in front of an inspector.
24:08That's where the proper decisions would be.
24:10Because the bit I don't agree with in politics to a point is, is you'll get people coming out with
24:16statements.
24:17And unfortunately, until we understand what the mitigations are, which only comes at the next phase.
24:22But what I want to know is, if the inspector finds a favour of ancient woodland, at which point it
24:29remains, then Gallaghers then need to consider how else they take their business going forward.
24:35And if it falls the other way around, and a planning application comes down again, all of the groups, the
24:41Greens and the others, or people that don't support the application, still have their opportunity to challenge it again, to
24:48say the mitigation measures aren't substantial enough.
24:52Right. Stuart?
24:53I'm sorry, Paul. I mean, the idea that you're deferring the decision to the planning inspector, your actual job is
24:59to make that decision, to look at the facts, to decide what is best, not to push it to someone
25:06else.
25:07So, it's a dereliction of duty in my mind.
25:09And as for the other sites, there is no reason that KCC couldn't have brought forward sites.
25:16It could, it has compulsory purchase powers.
25:21It could find sites itself.
25:23It didn't bother.
25:24I want to cut in here, a dereliction of duty.
25:27Are you going to respond to those?
25:28We're 81 elected members.
25:31Right.
25:31We've all got our responsibility.
25:33My responsibility was quite clear.
25:36There were no justifiable reasons why I couldn't object to it going forward.
25:43Because it's clear, planning legislation, we've got to submit a plan.
25:48We submitted that plan.
25:50The next stage it goes through, which gives all of the other people the opportunity that objected to it,
25:56to make their clear representations and prove that ancient woodland, in the eyes of the inspector, that takes top trumps.
26:05If that's the case, that's what we then work with.
26:08And we'll have to go back to then try and establish other routes for hard rock.
26:13Right.
26:13We haven't got much time left.
26:14Any closing remarks from you, Stuart?
26:15I mean, the job in that vote was to decide, is this plan good enough to go out to consultation?
26:21Paul thinks it was.
26:22I think it wasn't.
26:24Right.
26:24Well, thank you both so much for your time.
26:26I suppose we got some agreements there, but at the end of the day, it's still all to play for.
26:32Thank you so much for joining me.
26:34Well, that's all from us here at the Kent Politics Show.
26:38Thank you so much to our guests tonight for coming into the studio.
26:41We'll be back very soon, but stay with us because Kent Tonight is coming up next with all the latest
26:46news from around the county.
26:47See you very soon.
26:48Good night.