- 2 weeks ago
- #considerthis
A series of recent cases involving violence against girls has raised fresh concerns about the safety of girls and young women. The Law Minister has asked that these cases be examined for possible gender-based violence, including whether rejection, jealousy, and a sense of entitlement are contributing to violence against women and girls. With Budget 2027 being tabled tomorrow, and International Day of the Girl coming up this weekend, are we doing enough to prevent violence against girls, rather than simply responding after it happens? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Ain Husniza Saiful Nizam, Founder and Executive Director of the youth-led NGO, Pocket of Pink, and Karen Lai, Executive Director, Women's Centre for Change (WCC).
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:09Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:14where we want you to consider and reconsider what you know of the news of the day. A series
00:19of recent cases involving violence against girls has raised fresh concern about the safety
00:26of our girls and young women. The Law Minister has asked that these cases be examined for
00:32possible gender-based violence, including whether rejection, jealousy and a sense of
00:39entitlement are contributing to violence against women and girls. Now with Budget 2027 coming
00:46up to being table tomorrow and the International Day of the Girl coming up this weekend, the
00:52question we want to ask on the show tonight is whether we're doing enough to prevent violence
00:58against girls from happening in the first place rather than simply responding to it after
01:03it happens. Well, joining me on the show right now to discuss this further is Ayn Husniza Saiful
01:07Nizam, who is best known for her activism against rape culture in schools. She's currently the
01:14founder and executive director of the youth-led NGO Pockets of Pink. Ayn, thank you so much
01:20for being on the show with me. It's good to have you back. I'm looking at the recent cases involving
01:26girls, especially in schools. I'm just wondering what concerns you the most about this Ayn. Is this a
01:32case of a new pattern of violence that we're seeing against girls or is it simply that it's always been
01:39there and only now we are becoming more aware of it?
01:44So I think considering my activism that started in 2021, during that time I was talking about rape joke
01:54and the existence of rape culture, right? So there's this concept that's known where in fact these small
02:00actions that enable and normalize sexual violence and rape to happen to girls, for example, that can
02:09include demeaning the bodies of young girls, sexual comments. I think that people aren't aware that
02:21enabling and allowing these small things and actions can actually lead to bigger acts of violence towards
02:30women and girls, which is rape. So but during that time it was for me what happened to me was
02:36it was
02:37simply like a rape joke and to so many other young people during that time it was you know acts
02:42where
02:43teachers or students or any peers around them in school would talk to them or demean them or talk
02:49about sexual jokes but a lot of the sort of like response that we got from people during that time
02:55was that oh like this is like such a small matter or it's just a joke or boys being boys
03:02or even in fact
03:03like oh why are you the one that's not covering up so then you know you're just inviting for those
03:09things to happen not knowing that you know enabling those sort of like actions to happen to girls despite
03:17like no matter what they're wearing is actually normalizing all of that to happen to any girl no
03:24matter how covered up they are and so i think right now like um five years after hashtag made school
03:31in single place we can see like that culmination of rape culture start to happen so i think for me
03:37what's concerning is that we'll start to see more and more of these acts of violence like happening
03:42in our education system if we don't address this culture right can i ask you about the comments
03:48made by the law minister um she described the violence as potentially reflecting dangerous
03:55misogynistic tendencies and i'm wondering about that about what they call the manosphere right um how
04:01concerned are you about the influence of the manosphere this um incel culture content on young malaysian boys
04:11i do think there should be concern and worries surrounding the culture of us um practicing of us
04:20utilizing the online spaces more in my generation i think that's one of the biggest difference that
04:26we have currently from the previous generation but i just want to emphasize the fact that um these
04:33online spaces were also the only space that allowed me to talk about my activism to talk about the fact
04:39to allow the exposure of the culture of sexual harassment and sexual abuse that's been happening
04:45to our school children to the wider public so the online spaces have been a big facilitator of that
04:52but at the same time it's true there's a bad side to it in which that um maybe due to
04:59the influence
05:01of content that's been consuming online to these spaces and communities that exist online that might not have
05:07as positive um sort of values or teaching these have been somewhat like radicalizing um some of our
05:16young people especially boys right um and one of the i would say alternative to that right now um across
05:24our region not only malaysia we've been considering a lot of like action with that which is like for
05:29example the online safety act um quite recently that's been the case of like the bandag utama case
05:35and some of our like policymakers or politicians have been talking about the fact that is this case
05:40linked to social media are these femicides or killing of young girls linked to young boys being
05:47radicalized on online spaces and i would say that yes it's a concern and it can be linked to that
05:54but at the
05:54same time we must not look into just simply banning these spaces for young people um to solve this
06:01problem because why we have to consider why young people are going to these spaces in the first place
06:07why i went to online spaces to talk about the sexual harassment that's happened to me that's because
06:15a support system didn't exist in the first place so then young people are looking for alternative
06:20alternative support systems and the way we think about these boys right especially these radicalized
06:27young boys is that why did they turn violent why do they believe in these values it's because they
06:35found a sense of community in the man's land they want a sense of um brotherhood in these online spaces
06:42and they're sharing these kind of things oh they feel lonely they don't feel supported they don't feel
06:47seen they feel neglected by their parents but is the issue really due to due to the utilization of
06:55just these online spaces it's also because the support system didn't exist in the first place whether
07:01that would be at home at our schools at our mosque at our community centers so the question is that
07:09other than addressing the consumption of these um con these misogynistic content online
07:17is also the fact that have we actually provided a healthy alternative to our young men okay
07:23well that that brings me to a recent um online post that you you made and you're absolutely right
07:30social media has allowed you to democratize and to spread your your message your your advocacy work
07:35as well can you talk to me a little bit about that what do you hope that we teach our
07:40young boys today
07:41so that they're not influenced when they are seeking community through these uh manosphere spaces
07:47online i think that firstly the most important thing that we tell young boys okay in the post i did
07:57say
07:58that we should tell them to respect whenever a girl rejects them right we should tell them to always
08:05treat a young girl with the same decorum and respect that they do with their male friends but at the
08:12same
08:12time the first thing that we must tell them is that it's okay for them to be emotional it's okay
08:18for them
08:18to be hurt it's okay for them to be rejected and feel hurt because of that and that's how you
08:24regulate
08:24these emotions but i think you know on the flip side of like misogyny is that okay girls are being
08:30told that oh girls are soft girls are like need to do this and that but on the flip side
08:35boys are being
08:35treated that oh you need to be strong you need to be manly you can't be like this like that
08:39or when a girl
08:40rejects you that means that it's like a a hit on your ego so because of us like because of
08:47the misogyny
08:48as a whole it you know when you when you're um when you're sexist towards one gender it's going to
08:55affect the other gender as well so when you don't when you are not compassionate to young boys they
09:01don't regulate their emotions and those emotions turn violent those emotions turn extreme so first
09:09things first is that the fact that it's okay for young boys to be emotional it's okay for them to
09:13be
09:13sensitive and then secondly is also for them to not blame or treat girls as like second class like
09:21subjects right so um i think that's like a lot of the sort of education that must go to young
09:29boys
09:29and i think that this doesn't just exist should exist in the education system um because i think
09:35previously like we were talking a lot about i was talking a lot about the consent education
09:38education but then it's also true our religious institutions and i think that our our religion
09:43religions are beautiful religions incite peace and love and i think that should be utilized to teach
09:50young boys that you know you should respect young girls our religion teach us this it doesn't teach us
09:55to oppress them it doesn't teach us to disrespect them so i think that's like what we really need to
10:00prioritize especially right okay so that's the message to to boys and to anyone raising young boys or
10:06being a caretaker of boys but we have the international day of the girl coming up this
10:12weekend and i wanted to ask you and what you what message you have what would you say to a
10:17young girl
10:18let's say she's she's 16 years old and she's in malaysia and she's being increasingly told that
10:24her safety no matter where she is at home online in schools on campuses outside in public that her safety
10:32is
10:32increasingly becoming her own responsibility um i would tell to that young girl is that um don't
10:41worry we're all in the same boat as you and we all are here to protect you and i think
10:47but i think
10:47you know oh of course it's been continuing to see the recent rise of femicide and sexual abuse and
10:54sexual assault in schools it's worrying but also at the same time i think the tides are somewhat shifting
10:59we see a lot more girls being brave and speaking up um either in social media either in real life
11:05and i think that's a positive thing because the thing is it's not new girls have been experiencing
11:11sexual violence for years but the fact that we're seeing more cases of sexual violence might not mean
11:18that our safety is more precarious than before it's we've always been unsafe but i think it means that
11:25a lot more of our general public are aware about how this is wrong and we need to put attention
11:30on it
11:31and we need to resolve it so i think that there's a very positive note for us to become even
11:38more
11:38safer and more empowered as girls in the future so don't worry and keep speaking up for yourself because
11:43if you speak up for yourself you speak up for all of the other girls out there
11:47i thank you so much for being on the show it's always such a joy and pleasure to talk to
11:51you i appreciate
11:52your time i'm husniza saifu nizam there we're going to take a quick break here on consider this
11:56we'll be back with more on this topic stay tuned we'll be right back
12:18hi welcome back to consider this i'm melissa idris let's continue our conversation
12:23about the series of recent cases involving violence against girls and young women
12:29what is driving this violence and how early can we intervene well joining me now is karen lai who's
12:35the executive director of the women's center for change penang better known as swcc karen good to
12:41have you back on the show thank you for joining me um this is really worrying news i'm curious to
12:45know
12:46how worried are you how worried do you think we should be about these recent cases involving um
12:52young women girls especially in schools and campuses campuses thank you melissa uh personally i am
13:00extremely disturbed and concerned particularly when we look at the recent fatal cases yeah uh it's been
13:07exactly a year uh to the month where the irene sophia case has emerged uh after the yakxin swen banda
13:14utama case
13:15uh this is in addition to the zara karina case the alleged gang rape of a 15 year old school
13:21girl in
13:21melaka and recent cases of alleged sexual misconduct and sexual assault by teachers
13:27um the picture is is truly very disturbing very concerning the loss and violation of such young lives
13:34is devastating and what's particularly concerning is the level and range of violence involved you're
13:40talking about physical and sexual violence bullying and harassment and the fact that the alleged
13:46perpetrators are fellow students or even teachers themselves you know that's almost unthinkable
13:52and uh to top that the schools i mean incidents are happening in schools the very places where our
13:57children are supposed to be educated nurtured and protected so yes i think we should all be very
14:04very deeply concerned because ultimately this is more than about individual cases it's about whether
14:10our children especially our girls can trust the places that are supposed to keep them safe okay karen
14:17so let's talk about those places so schools universities and the adults around these children what happens
14:24when a girl reports these types of behaviors sexual harassment bullying threatening behavior
14:31what often happens next i'm curious to know how equipped our schools universities institutions are to deal
14:40with gender-based violence where does the system most often fail her well if you think about it
14:48malaysia actually has a fairly substantial policy framework yeah so at that level uh we have the 2023
14:55ministry of education guidelines and these actually require schools to act within 24 hours
15:00that is to record the complaint contact the parents or guardians make the necessary report and escalate
15:07the complaint up the relevant channels yeah importantly in july of 2026 the ministry of education introduced
15:13the garis panduan pengurusan sekolah selamat or guidelines for management of safe schools
15:18and the policy perlindungan murid the students protection policy to further strengthen student protection
15:24education so the issue isn't necessarily that we don't have sops but as we know a policy is only
15:30as good as its implementation the first response is the most critical uh when a girl says this happened
15:36to me she must be believed she must be listened to safely and protected from harm so i think uh
15:42recent
15:43cases have shown us that we can't only ask did she make a formal complaint to the right person or
15:47the correct
15:48person we really need to ask what did the adults around her understand and know and more importantly
15:54what did they do with that information because when a girl discloses a threat uh you know disturbances
16:00and so on these are warning signs and these are critical opportunities for prevention even before a
16:06first complaint is made even after the complaint is made we need to be very careful is she still in
16:11the
16:11same classroom as the alleged perpetrator is that online retaliation and so on and so forth and at
16:17wcc sadly we've seen cases where the first response by schools uh has been insensitive or inappropriate
16:24uh victims were also not adequately supported uh were not always adequately supported through the
16:30police investigation stage and even sometimes questioned harshly in court so there are several points
16:35at which uh the system fills our children in that sense okay uh can can we move on to maybe
16:43uh what's
16:44happening online because i know very much of it sometimes may spill over into the real world but
16:50when you think about the current online environment in which young people are growing up in very different
16:57from perhaps the way you and i grew up in in karen but when we think about some of the
17:01content that's
17:02online content that normalizes the um the hatred of women or it frames women as something that men are
17:08entitled to which could lead to rejection violence how concerned are you about that and the reason i'm
17:14asking is because the law minister recently described some of the recent cases as maybe potentially
17:20reflecting what she called dangerous misogynistic tendencies uh what are your thoughts on that karen
17:27i'm also very concerned about this because i think our young people are growing
17:31up in an online environment where misogyny is essentially packaged as entertainment
17:36or advice or humor and this is being normalized and we're seeing really worrying signs in malaysia
17:42for instance a 2026 nationally representative study uh talked to over a thousand malaysian women yeah
17:50and found that 41 have experienced online sexual violence such as unwanted sexual messages cyber stalking
17:58and so on and young women have particularly high exposure okay so this is really raises the red flags
18:03and we've also seen public uh discussion around the incel subculture following the uh the yak
18:09shinsuen tragedy as well as concerns about boys being exposed to so-called red pill and alpha male content
18:16promoting male dominance and control and you look at ayn husnisa's case this is a young girl who spoke up
18:22about
18:23sexual harassment and herself became the target of online harassment and rape threats so overall the
18:29concern isn't simply that young people are watching yeah it's also what ideas are being normalized and
18:34inculcated at every level of society the idea that women owe men attention uh we owe men that otherwise
18:42rejecting them is an insult you know and that uh being humiliated or having violence perpetrated
18:49against women is justified where a man doesn't get what he wants uh we need to take this very
18:54seriously because in our current environment online attitudes very strongly shape the way young people
18:59see the world how they understand relationships consent power and importantly violence definitely
19:07well this is coming all at a time where malaysia or the government is preparing to table budget 2027
19:13tomorrow um and i think already in the pre-budget statements that they've been alluding to the fact
19:18that um they've identified women's participation and child care as a key area that they want to address
19:24but the question is whether the protection from violence particularly for girls is going to get
19:30comparable attention so i wanted to ask you karen um what you think about that do you think this
19:35government understands that violence against women and girls is actually a structural issue as opposed to a
19:43kind of school security policing issue the reason is because you know often with incidents like the
19:49yong peng case the conversation immediately turns to more cctv more security guards more uh school
19:57you know wardens and the like are we treating this primarily as a security problem rather than a
20:03violence against girls problem and ahead of budget 2027 what is it that you'd like to see
20:10the government invest in when it comes to the safety and security of girls particularly in schools
20:18well i think the test for budget 2027 is whether we see actual investment in prevention and not just
20:24reaction right in other words not just addressing the symptoms i'm not saying cctvs and guards and
20:29police are not important they are but they're not enough and if we understand violence against women as
20:35a structural issue then we need things like sustained investment in school safeguarding training of
20:40counsellors and welfare officers trauma support we need safe and child friendly reporting mechanisms
20:47you know education on consent respect and better coordination among agencies among others and we
20:54definitely need accountability because it's not enough to have policies on paper we should be asking how
21:00quickly are complaints acted on are schools properly trained are girls getting the timely uh psychological
21:07and legal support they need are repeat offenders and patterns of behavior being identified or worse
21:13tolerated and are we measuring online misogyny and violence as well as physical incidents for
21:19instance so if you want to really invest in girls safety it means identifying risk early protecting
21:27girls when they speak up and changing the culture that allows this sort of violence to become normalized
21:32in the first place and that's what i want to see reflected in budget 2027. wonderful uh karen earlier
21:38i spoke to ayn husnizadeh a wonderful activist who's trying to make schools safer um and i asked her what
21:45her message is her message would be for young girls ahead of international day of the girl and i'd like
21:52to ask you
21:53not the message for young girls but the message for the adults around young girls around girls and young
21:59women who we ought to be taking care of so um when you said earlier about the adults around a
22:07girl who
22:07may be reporting uh threatening behaviors or sexual harassment what would you like to say to the adults
22:15around her how would you like us to respond to her and to support her so that she knows
22:21that her safety is not just her responsibility but ours collectively
22:28i'd like to share with the adults around uh all young girls out there uh the message to believe
22:34support and empower these young girls yeah it's so important that they know that they have someone to
22:40turn to uh whom they can trust and rely on uh and who will who will walk with them through
22:46uh what is
22:47oftentimes a very difficult journey uh in this landscape karen thank you so much for your time
22:53that was karen like executive director women's center for change penang wcc wrapping up this episode
23:00of consider this i'm melissa idris signing off for the evening thank you so much for watching and good night
23:05thank you