00:00And I want to take it to someone who understands the situation,
00:04not just with regard to aviation, but defence and more.
00:07Saul Sadhka is joining me.
00:08He's a defence analyst.
00:10He's joining me from Tel Aviv.
00:12And thank you, Saul, for joining and speaking on India today.
00:15My first question is, and we'll go one by one on this issue.
00:17Is it right to compare it to a 9-11-like attack and why?
00:22And what do you make of the fact that, unlike 9-11,
00:26unlike other hijackings we have seen in the past,
00:28this one got controlled in time
00:31because sceptics don't want to believe
00:33that ordinary people can do extraordinary initiatives
00:37and can stop such a hijacking?
00:41Well, unfortunately, I didn't hear anything you just said.
00:44All right.
00:45If you can, yes, if you can hear me, Saul,
00:47what I wanted to understand was,
00:48is it right to compare it to 9-11-like terror attack?
00:51And why do you think that could be it?
00:56If you're asking me if the attacks should be compared to the September 11th attacks?
01:01Yes, that's right, sir. That's right.
01:04So, I would say no.
01:06Well, it does appear that after the interrogation of the attacker pilot
01:11who tried to hijack the plane,
01:13it does certainly appear that's what he was trying to do.
01:15There were signs right from the beginning that's what he was probably trying to do
01:18based on the point at which he tried to take control of the plane.
01:21The only thing, really,
01:23there were so many things that had to go right
01:25that prevented this from being a 9-11-style attack.
01:29The first thing, of course,
01:30was that the co-pilot
01:33only managed to strike an injurious blow to the pilot.
01:38If he had, with the first strike,
01:40knocked him unconscious,
01:41then nobody would have heard the shouts outside the cockpit.
01:44He certainly wouldn't have been able to open the door.
01:47And the co-pilot would have easily,
01:50without any kind of interference,
01:51been able to fly that plane to anywhere he wanted,
01:54more or less,
01:55within a thousand miles.
01:57He could have struck Israel.
01:58He could have struck Ben Gurion Airport,
02:00which is the primary entry point
02:01for all foreign passengers to Israel.
02:05That's apparently what he was trying to strike.
02:06He could have easily struck
02:08any of the tall skyscrapers in the Tel Aviv skyline.
02:11He could have attacked the Israeli parliament in Jerusalem.
02:14Any of those things
02:15were within a very, very short detour
02:19of a matter of seconds, in some cases,
02:21from his assigned flight path.
02:23There's no way that even the very, very careful
02:25Israeli air defences
02:26would have been able to intercept him in time
02:28and stop him from doing that.
02:31We are talking about Captain Smith, Machar,
02:33and I appreciate how people across Israel
02:35are also praising him
02:36and people across the world are doing it.
02:38Do you think this was,
02:40also many are asking,
02:41for the Israeli passengers to take charge,
02:43as many people would panic
02:45or would freeze in a moment like this.
02:47What makes you think, sir,
02:49that the passengers united and said,
02:52not on our watch,
02:53we'll ensure that this pilot,
02:55the attacker, does not succeed?
03:00The, I don't, I'm sorry,
03:02unfortunately, your audio isn't working at all.
03:04Okay.
03:05But from what I understand,
03:05what you were asking me is,
03:07was it, was it the case
03:08that a very small difference
03:10would have made a difference
03:11and would have allowed it to succeed?
03:13It's entirely unclear.
03:15There were so many things
03:16that had to go completely right
03:18for this not to end up in a tragedy.
03:20There are many people
03:21that have to ask a lot of questions,
03:23including people in the UAE,
03:25including people in Oman.
03:26If it's true that this pilot
03:28was banned from flying in Oman,
03:30but that information was not passed on
03:33to the international aviation authorities
03:35to warn them
03:35that this guy who had a UK pilot's license
03:38or had jihadi tendencies,
03:40this is a sad indictment
03:42of the state of Oman.
03:44It's also an error
03:45on the part of the UAE intelligence.
03:47It's certainly an error
03:48on the part of Israeli intelligence.
03:50Thank God,
03:51all these errors
03:52didn't amount to a disaster,
03:54but they could have easily done so
03:56had it not been through
03:57a very severe list,
04:00a very severe list indeed,
04:02of very lucky situations
04:03and heroism from the pilot,
04:06Captain Smith,
04:07and also from the people
04:09on the plane
04:10and a lot of other luck,
04:11lucky acts.
04:12In fact,
04:13the fact that there were
04:14two spare pilots on board,
04:16many, many things
04:16had to go right
04:18for this not to end up
04:19as a hijacking,
04:21a 9-11 style attack
04:23that results entirely
04:24of intelligence failures
04:25from the UAE,
04:27from Oman,
04:28from Israel,
04:29from other things.
04:30Sol, I request you to please stay on
04:31because I want to bring
04:32to the notice of the viewer
04:33about why this is beyond also
04:35about the courage.
04:36We also need to have answers
04:38to questions about
04:38what went wrong and why.
04:40How can a pilot like that
04:41even make it to the cockpit
04:42and endanger the life
04:44of our 200 passengers?
04:45I want to first take
04:46the viewer through
04:46and this is a map
04:47that we have prepared
04:48about what is the situation
04:49in a scenario like this.
04:51I want to take you
04:52through the map
04:53that has come in
04:54and to help you understand
04:55about what exactly happened.
04:57The Ben Gurion airport,
04:59which is in Tel Aviv,
05:00which was where the flight
05:00was supposed to be landing,
05:02the aircraft was very close to it.
05:05It was in fact going to be
05:06touching Saudi Arabia,
05:08Jordanian airspace
05:09and then land.
05:10This is the place
05:12where the aircraft was,
05:14that is the plan of the pilot
05:15to be able to land here
05:18on the strip.
05:19It could have been anywhere
05:20once it entered
05:21into the Israeli territory
05:22had the cockpit door not opened.
05:25This was the attempt,
05:26but because while it was crossing
05:28Saudi Arabian territory,
05:29that is when the alert
05:30emergency signals
05:31could be transmitted in time
05:32and emergency landing
05:33could happen.
05:34But here are the big questions
05:35that I need three nations
05:38literally to answer
05:39of how was this even
05:41allowed to happen
05:43despite stringent security measures.
05:45The first question is,
05:46and this is for Oman,
05:48why didn't Oman warn others,
05:50other countries,
05:51about Hammami's background?
05:53The country of Oman
05:55did not allow
05:56Hammam al-Hammami to fly
05:58because they had done
05:59a background check,
06:00they figured his radicalized views,
06:02the fact that he was acting
06:03as a fundamentalist
06:04and cannot give him
06:06the opportunity
06:07to fly aircraft.
06:08And that was a good thing
06:09that Oman did,
06:10but why didn't you alert others?
06:12How did Israel,
06:13which is known
06:14for such stringent security measures,
06:16also check or ensure
06:18that on a route like this,
06:20Hammami would be allowed
06:21to operate on one
06:22of the most sensitive routes
06:24in the region right now,
06:25at least in the past
06:26two, three years?
06:27How did Israeli authorities
06:29become so callous over this?
06:31And then,
06:32very important,
06:33now the focus is on
06:34as much of Israel
06:35that did Israel
06:36do the background check
06:37of the flight crew as much
06:39because you get
06:39a prior information report?
06:41Or did they believe
06:42that the UAE,
06:43of course,
06:43that has been acting
06:44against terrorism,
06:45will not put someone
06:46like that on board
06:48for a Tel Aviv route?
06:49But questions are being raised
06:51about the UAE.
06:53If Oman authorities
06:54ensured a man like that
06:55cannot be allowed
06:56to get on the plane,
06:58why did they
07:00give clearance,
07:01and this was for Fly Dubai,
07:03to a man with a questionable past,
07:06especially when it came
07:07to very open,
07:08radicalized views?
07:09UAE allowed,
07:10even though did not
07:11give him the citizenship,
07:12but Fly Dubai allowed him.
07:13Who allowed him?
07:15What were the clearance procedures?
07:18How did these countries believe
07:19that they cannot have
07:20a radicalized terrorist
07:22on board the plane?
07:24And I want to take
07:25that question to Sol as well.
07:26Sol, I think this is also
07:27what these countries
07:28will have to ask.
07:30Why were these clearances
07:31that should have been
07:32very stringent
07:33for a Tel Aviv route
07:35were so callous about?
07:36What do you make of it?
07:37Do you think this now
07:38deserves stricter security
07:40clearances,
07:41stricter measures,
07:42and profile checkings
07:44will have to be done now?
07:47Yes, definitely.
07:48And it's staggering
07:49that this wasn't already in place.
07:50It's extremely worrying.
07:52It really shakes
07:53your sense of security
07:55in the aviation authorities
07:56around the world.
07:57And the Israelis are known
07:58for having some of the best.
07:59And if that's what's happening
08:00in Israel,
08:01who knows what's happening elsewhere?
08:03We know that this isn't
08:04the first case
08:05of a jihadi hijacking a plane
08:08from inside the cockpit
08:09as a pilot.
08:10There are other cases
08:11and there are other cases
08:12of pilots
08:13who have decided
08:14to kill themselves,
08:15not for jihadi reasons,
08:17and take the plane down.
08:18It doesn't really matter
08:19whether someone is mentally ill
08:20and wants to take a plane down
08:22or he wants to
08:23simply end his own life
08:25and doesn't seem to care
08:26about the people behind him.
08:27There needs to be
08:28very, very strict vetting
08:30of all pilots
08:30and co-pilots
08:31to make sure
08:32that this can never,
08:32ever happen again.
08:34If it means
08:35that on every plane
08:36you need to have someone
08:37with some kind of weapon,
08:39someone who was trained,
08:41someone with an intelligence background
08:43guarding the cockpit
08:44from the pilots
08:46and guarding the cockpit
08:47from the pilots
08:48and guarding the pilots
08:49from the crew
08:50to try and stop
08:51this kind of thing,
08:52if that's what's to happen,
08:53that's what's going to have to happen.
08:54It's going to add
08:55to the cost of flights
08:56for everyone around the world,
08:57but most likely
08:58people will not feel comfortable
08:59flying on planes
09:01if they are not certain
09:02that their pilots
09:03are not mentally ill
09:04or radicalised
09:06and liable
09:06to murder them
09:07and all their families.
09:09And, you know,
09:09we talk about Islamophobia
09:11all the time,
09:11but it's actually actions
09:12like this
09:13that push that stereotype
09:15further.
09:16These are pilots
09:16who are pushing
09:17that stereotype
09:18about the community
09:19and that is what is tragic
09:21as much about it.
09:22One final question, Saul.
09:24What are the lessons learnt?
09:25What do you think
09:26Israel's government
09:28needs to do?
09:28We have seen
09:29the kind of
09:30sort of laxity
09:32that happened
09:32on October 7,
09:332023 as well
09:34and to not have
09:36any of these repeats again.
09:39Well, you know,
09:40the problem is
09:41that in the West
09:43and in free nations
09:44like India,
09:45you have an open door.
09:48You have an open door
09:49that terrorists
09:50and jihadis
09:51are always going
09:52to try and exploit.
09:53And every time
09:54they walk through the door,
09:56you need to
09:57shut the door
09:58after them.
09:59If you always
09:59are going to end up
10:00with a situation
10:01like this,
10:02for example,
10:03after 9-11,
10:04they put locks
10:05on the cockpit doors.
10:06It didn't used
10:06to be there before
10:07and it took 25 years
10:09for jihadis
10:09to figure out
10:10that in that case,
10:11the only way
10:12to hijack a plane
10:13is by hijacking
10:14the mind
10:14of one of the pilots
10:15and that's exactly
10:16what they did.
10:17And at that point,
10:18then the cockpit door
10:19becomes an impediment
10:20and makes the hijacking
10:21easier.
10:21So you always
10:22are going to have
10:23an arms race
10:23between people
10:24that live
10:25in free societies
10:26and want to have
10:27free societies
10:28and the people
10:29that want to destroy them.
10:30There's always going
10:31to be an arm race.
10:32You're always going
10:32to have attrition
10:33like this
10:33and you're always
10:34going to have
10:34to be reactive,
10:35unfortunately.
10:36That is just the price
10:37of living in a free society.
10:39But of course,
10:39living in a free society
10:40is infinitely better
10:41than living
10:42in a theocracy
10:43or a dictatorship.
10:45Saul, I appreciate you
10:46joining us
10:47and thank you
10:47for your perspective
10:48as well.
10:48Good to know
10:49at least in this case
10:50lives were saved.
10:52Otherwise,
10:52we were looking at
10:53perhaps no answers
10:54on what happened.
10:56Thank you very much.
