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Malaysia’s current Elections (Conduct of Elections) Regulations date back 45 years to 1981. This is despite the fact that the electorate and the electoral process having changed significantly over the decades. But what about the machinery of our elections? Has it evolved quickly enough and kept pace? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Danesh Prakash Chacko, Chairperson of Persatuan Bertindak Pilihan Raya Bebas Dan Saksama (Tindak) and Henry Lim, a committee member of Tindak and a Trainer for Petugas Pilihan Raya.
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00:11Hello and good evening, I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:15where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day. Our
00:20current elections or conduct of elections regulations date back to 1981. That's some
00:2645 years ago now and this is despite the electorate and the election process having
00:32changed significantly over the decades. What about the machinery of our elections? Has
00:38that evolved quickly enough and has that kept pace? Well, joining me on the show today to
00:43discuss this further, I have Danish Brokash Chako who is Chairperson of Persatuan Bertindak
00:48Pilihan Raya Bebas dan Saksama, better known as Tindak. I also have Henry Lim who is a committee
00:53member of Tindak and he has served as a polling agent, county agent or PACA as well as a ketua
00:59tempat mengundi at various elections in the past years. He's also a trainer for Petugas
01:05Pilihan Raya. Welcome to the show, gentlemen. Thank you so much for joining me. If I may
01:09begin with you, Henry, as someone who has been involved as a Petugas Pilihan Raya, I think
01:16for most voters, when we think of an election, we simply think about the act of turning up,
01:21you know, you get your ballot paper, you mark your choice and you put it in a box. But there's
01:27so
01:27much more that happens behind the scenes. So maybe you can begin by briefly walking us through the
01:32wider process as well as the people behind polling day. Thank you, Melissa, for the questions. Yes,
01:40it's indeed, it's amazing to have these sessions together. And I would want to start by saying
01:47that on the day itself, in fact, the election process do starts before the day of the actual
01:55polling. It's simply because that we are required to check the ballot box and the ballot paper. And
02:03usually it is just a day before. And in some election constituency, there will be maybe a one or two
02:11days even before. Yeah. And usually that process will take the whole day. In the morning, there will be a
02:20time that we are in the Pali Center for us to check or be together with all the Petugas. Right.
02:28And then in the
02:29afternoon, we usually will set up the saluran itself. Yeah. Then come the actual day. Of course, the actual day
02:36is the most
02:37important day for all Petugas. And first is what we call Penyelera Pusat Mengundi. Or in short, we call it
02:45PPM. And this is usually the headmaster of the particular school that is used. And then we have a team
02:53of Petugas. And from the team of Petugas, it usually is KTM and assist by four KP, Kerani Pengundi.
03:04Then we have the Scrutini, the Pacha. All right. The Pacha will be the one in the saluran, which will
03:13be the
03:14Scrutini throughout the day. And of course, there is also police pengiring, which is all the while from
03:23the time you will escort you from the telecenter, where you pick up the box early in the morning,
03:28like something like 6.30. And we need to go to the saluran. And the police pengiring will be with
03:37us
03:37until the end of the day. And when the whole ballot box is brought back to the telecenter.
03:44Okay. Just for clarity, who employs Petugas Pilihan Raya? Are they accountable to SPR,
03:53election commission? Or who pays their salaries? Well, it is SPR. Of course, that as a public and
04:03from the private side, and they usually also will mobilize the teachers in the schools or any people
04:13who have that knowledge and training been given, they are the one that can volunteer themselves to
04:22be a Petugas. Okay. So it's voluntary. Yes, Danish. I would like to chip in on this part. I would
04:26like
04:26to clarify on this. One of the things we need to realize is, based on constitution, the election
04:34commission's main, one of the main duties is to run the elections. But the truth on the ground is,
04:39the one who really runs elections is the returning officer. So I want to clarify that the returning
04:44officer is the one who will appoint a person like Henry to be a Ketua Terpamundi. The EC for your
04:50information is, gives, appoints a returning officer and gives the general directions. And also behaves
04:57as the training consultant for this case. Okay. And where does the, who is the returning officer and what
05:03is the role of the returning officer? The returning officer is tasked to run the election of a given
05:07constituency. Ah. Okay. The whole constituency. Constituency. And for the information, particularly
05:12for Negri Simulan, EC experimented that for, you have 36 state constituencies. As instead of
05:21appointing 36 returning officers of Pengawai Pengurus, they opted to appoint eight Pengawai Pengurus. Yes. So
05:28what happens is, the Pengawai Pengurus for parliamentary seat for Port Dickson. And then he or she is
05:35assisted by assisting returning officers and everyone underneath, including Henry as a Ketua Terpamundi.
05:41And this was the first time they experimented with this? I believe so, right? Because historically
05:47speaking, I noticed if you have 56 dunes like in Johor, yeah, SPR said, I'm going to appoint 56
05:55returning officers. Okay. So if you ask me, one of the big challenges post-2018 is we have so many
06:00elections, so many state elections, and there is more state constituencies than parliamentary
06:05constituencies. So this is the challenge that we find. We are noticing it particularly for EC.
06:11When you say challenge, does that, what are you referring to? Okay. So just to give you an idea. Yeah.
06:16In
06:16Malaysia, we have 222 parliamentary seats. That means to run in elections, you need to have 222
06:23returning officers. But let's say we have a situation that for Johor, Johor itself has only 26 parliamentary
06:30seats, means 26 returning officers. But when you came for the state elections, you have around 56 dunes, means
06:40EC now has to find 56 government organizations or departments to run elections. Yeah. And that, if you ask me,
06:50it's not easy. Yeah. Okay. Henry, talk to me. So we are 45 years into the current conduct of elections
06:59regulations, right? What would you say has been the biggest changes that have happened in the way we conduct
07:06elections without having changed the regulations? Well, I would say that the first is that the public engagement
07:13are much more now. And that will help us to shape, to have a better, wanting to know what is
07:23going on in our country. And I
07:36know, you know, you know, you can't keep something secret, you know, it will be out in the public
07:42pretty soon. And, and, and, and the other thing is that because of the, the level of public interest
07:50engagement and all that, that will somehow push a greater transparency in terms of what EC are going to
08:01do, you know, and because they are all, they are all accountable to, uh, the process of election.
08:07Okay. Danish, what about you? What do you think have been some of the biggest changes? Or actually,
08:10I might rephrase that. What do you think, uh, parts of the process that should have changed over the years,
08:16but have not? This is a good question that you have raised. One of the things I feel it's not
08:24so much, uh,
08:26should have changed, but didn't happen is actually, we have to go back to one of the principles in the
08:30conduct of elections in 1981. In a given election, each of us cast their own vote, our own votes by
08:37ourselves.
08:38But there are cases, those who are physically not able to do so, right? It's a term for, term used,
08:44orang kurang berdaya. Kurang berdaya. So for this situation, the, the regulations is provided this concept
08:52called orai yang dipercayai, the trusted person. The trusted person will assist this third voter, orang kurang berdaya,
09:00to cast their ballot, right? For example, this person is blind and this, the trusted person would say and whisper,
09:08uh, trusted person would work with this blind person and the blind person whisper, in this ballot paper,
09:13please mark this. Okay. Historically speaking, this regulation was, allows the trusted person to be only the
09:20categories of those who are related to this. Okay. But somewhere around 2012, the regulation got amended.
09:27Now is, any Malaysians, yeah, now 18 years and above, is qualified to be a trusted person.
09:34Is that a good thing or a bad thing? We have to say from a two perspective. Okay.
09:37From one perspective, if you look from an empowerment point of view, that frees up, uh,
09:44More people to be the orang yadi percayai. Yeah, instead of, instead of, yeah, right?
09:47Because you don't have to just depend on your family members.
09:50But we also see the downside of that, or the dark side of it, whereby the same orang yadi percayai
09:57can be employed, not once, but three times, even I heard 20 times. So imagine, I'm a political party.
10:06And I have this orang yadi percayai. I can use this orang yadi percayai to enter the saluran
10:14and influence those who are orang yadi percayai. I mean, this is possible. Oh.
10:19So, as a KTM, technically speaking, you can't stop it. But as a KTM, also you have the right to
10:28query, you know.
10:29I've seen your face. So how would you like that to, how would you like there to be safeguards against
10:34that abuse?
10:34Yes.
10:35Is to go back to that, what was it meant to be.
10:38Only family members?
10:39Family members.
10:40That would be quite limiting for the people who do not have family members.
10:43Yeah. So we have to balance this situation, right? Because when this regulation was amended,
10:49there was already criticism for this purpose of the potential abuse.
10:53Okay. So that's one aspect. Now, let's talk about one thing that has not been implemented,
10:57but that's what we push for.
10:59is we want to have the democratization of the Portugas Bilandria.
11:04For your information, there is nowhere in the law that states that the election workers must come from civil service.
11:15No.
11:17Everything from the returning officer to the KTM and the KP. There's no.
11:22So is it just convention that's the case?
11:24It's a convention. Okay.
11:25So we felt now is the time that if you want greater public trust,
11:32it's to get the public to be in the forefront of the election administration.
11:37Danish, if it's not part of the conduct of elections regulations 1981,
11:41what's stopping it from happening?
11:44It's the returning officers and to a certain degree, EC's policies.
11:47EC's policies. Okay.
11:49Henry, if I may come to you and your kind of your experience.
11:52So you were PACHA for a since, well, you were PACHA in 2008 till 2018.
11:59And then you were KTM from 2021 to the most recent.
12:05Can we talk a little bit about the role of the PACHA and the KTM?
12:08What do these roles need to get right on polling day?
12:13And I want to understand as much as possible the human factor.
12:17How much of the integrity of elections ultimately comes down to individual judgment?
12:22Or has the process been so institutionalized that one crooked person makes no difference?
12:28Yeah.
12:29Well, first is that the PACHA, the word PACHA is the pulling agent, counting agent, right?
12:36And it is appointed by the wakil calon.
12:41So first is that…
12:43So political party, political…
12:44Yeah, political party.
12:45To be specific, it's the candidate.
12:47The candidates.
12:48All PACHAs report to the candidates.
12:50Yes, yes.
12:51So there will be Surat Sumpah Rasya and there is also Pelantikan.
12:57So these are the two documents that the PACHA must have before they can enter the saluran.
13:03Okay.
13:04Because the KTM will check this, of course, together with the IC.
13:08Right.
13:08So that is the PACHA part.
13:11And PACHA plays a role as a scrutiny in the saluran throughout the day.
13:16Of course, they are allowed to change shift.
13:18And usually there is a two hours principle rule that SPR has introduced, right?
13:24That from 8 o'clock to 10 o'clock, it is only the same PACHA to start the duty.
13:31Okay.
13:32If they leave the saluran before the two hours policy, the KTM have the right of not to bring in
13:41any substitute from the wakil calon perspective.
13:44So this is something that has been mentioned in the IC talimat.
13:50And it is important for all who are serving as a PACHA to know this.
13:56Okay.
13:56Very important.
13:57Because in one hour, you can miss a lot of eye to scrutinize the saluran.
14:03Right.
14:03Second is that in terms of the preparation, and of course, for them to be a PACHA, there is some
14:11core training.
14:12I remember those days before I volunteered myself as a PACHA, I went through not once, but three times of
14:20training just to get myself familiar what is the function of a PACHA.
14:24Okay.
14:25Yeah.
14:25Then on the day itself, when you come as a PACHA, wakil of your calon, and with whatever shift that
14:34your ketua PACHA is assigning to you, make sure you are healthy.
14:39You know, you must be healthy in the sense that don't be sleepy, don't be, you know, this is, you,
14:45you, you, it's a simple thing, but yet I can notice that there are people are still like dozing off
14:52and they are not of interest.
14:55They are just there for, yeah, I was called to be on that duty on that chair for that particular
15:02hour.
15:02Dhanesh, I see you nodding.
15:04Tell me.
15:05I mean, I've heard of this sort of incidences.
15:08For your information, in short PACHA is the eyes and the ears of the candidate in the saluran.
15:15Yes.
15:15So what Henry said is very important, you have to be focused, and you have given this minimum two hours
15:21to serve.
15:23So for example, you better don't have your toilet breaks in between, just stay in the saluran.
15:29You have a duty to be alert and vigilant.
15:31Okay.
15:32Be in the saluran most of your time, you know.
15:34Right.
15:34There is no phone call disruption that you are worried about, or at times that we also notice that a
15:41lot of PACHA are doing something that we will, that EC will not allow.
15:47You know, KTM will not.
15:48For instance?
15:48For example, they will try to write something on the…
15:52Can you talk to me, just emphasize the importance of a vigilant polling agent, counting agent?
15:58Well, for example, it could be just from the direct when water steps in at the door.
16:04And when the KP1, Kerani Pengundi 1, look at the semakan of the hand, it's important because there should not
16:15be any marking.
16:16And it has to be visible from your angle where you are seated as a PACHA.
16:22Okay.
16:23Right.
16:23If not, you should hands up and say, Tuan KTM, bantah, you know, for the reason that you need to
16:32stay.
16:32Okay.
16:32You know.
16:33Then second is that when the bacaan of the IC verified, it will pass to the KP2.
16:41And the KP1 will now, looking at the electoral list, they will read out of the mukha surat, bilangan, nombokat
16:54pengenalan, and the name.
16:56Okay.
16:57Okay.
16:57That is the four things that the KP1 need to do.
17:00In any moment that you realize that it is something suspicious, the PACHA should also, again, Tuan KTM.
17:08So, it's part of ensuring the integrity of the process, which builds public trust.
17:13So, anyone can be a PACHA, is that right?
17:15Yes.
17:16Anyone.
17:16Anyone in society can be a PACHA having gone through the training of…
17:20Okay.
17:21Put it this way.
17:21Okay.
17:22By regulation speaking, attending a training is a party matter.
17:26Okay.
17:27But if you strictly follow what the law says…
17:29Okay.
17:29This is interesting.
17:30They still use 21 years and above for…
17:3221 years.
17:33They didn't update it when the undi 18 changed.
17:36Oh.
17:37So, you have to be 21 and above to be a PACHA, but you can be younger to vote.
17:42Danish, can I come to you and talk about pemerhati?
17:44Yeah.
17:45Okay.
17:46If PACHA is the eyes and the ears of the candidate, the pemerhati pilandraya is the eyes and the
17:55ears of the EC.
17:57Okay.
17:57So, what…
17:58We have gone through the topic of Portugas, the PACHA and now we have come to pemerhati.
18:05The pemerhati is appointed, trained and reports to EC.
18:12Who are they…
18:14Where they are appointed from?
18:15They are appointed through the various NGOs or government agencies or non-profit companies
18:20as per EC's rules.
18:23Okay.
18:24EC has changed who becomes qualified, but now we more or less settle on these categories.
18:29Okay.
18:30Okay.
18:30So, for example, like we in Tinda, we have participated in pemerhati activities since 2019.
18:37It means 17, 17 deployments across the country.
18:44We will shortlist who will become pemerhati and then you get appointed and trained by the
18:50EC.
18:50Now, what differs pemerhati with the PACHA and the Portugas?
18:55One of the main things is they observe.
18:59They don't implement.
19:02The PACHA is a monitor.
19:04So, what it means is they go to, let's say, for nomination.
19:08They observe and then they will report on it on the go.
19:13And now EC has made it very simple.
19:15EC has created Google forms and they will put through a WhatsApp group.
19:18So, okay.
19:20Nomination done.
19:21Thank you very much for observing.
19:22Okay.
19:22Can you give us a feedback?
19:23Great.
19:24Now, you only can observe and report.
19:28But let's say there's a situation like what Henry said.
19:31The KP1 missed up a step.
19:34The pemerhati cannot say, I bantah.
19:36There's no such thing.
19:37Okay.
19:37There's no immediate objection.
19:39No.
19:39No.
19:40As a pemerhati, I have to tell to the Tuan KTM, Tuan KTM,
19:43I see KP1 has passed.
19:46It means I have here.
19:47He or she has skipped a step.
19:49Could you do the necessary?
19:50The KTM has to do that.
19:52You don't interfere.
19:54All right.
19:55Okay.
19:55So, I want to, in the time that we have left,
19:57look at both aspects of whether you think that there has been more space
20:04in the past years that you have been observing,
20:06having more space for independent election observation.
20:10What has improved?
20:11And I want to also ask you, what should change next?
20:14So, Henry, if I may begin with you.
20:16Yeah.
20:17Well, I think the process of change will do take time.
20:20And every opportunity, whether it's a state election or the general election,
20:26it is always an opportunity for us to give the feedback.
20:31Yeah.
20:31And at Tindak, we take it very seriously.
20:34We wanted to make sure that we are also representing the public in a way.
20:41And we wanted to make sure that the transparency,
20:44the accountability process will continue to prevail.
20:48It is important because, you know, once the public trust is lost,
20:53I think they, you know, you call it that people just don't believe.
20:59If people don't just want to come and...
21:01I mean, trust takes years to build, but it takes one election to lose that, right?
21:04Correct.
21:04And people just get very disappointed, very...
21:08They even show it by not coming on the day.
21:21Okay.
21:22So, yes.
21:23Yes.
21:24Yes.
21:24I am very glad to say that it has been...
21:27I think the EC is now, over the years, they are more receptive.
21:32They are more looking at it because also the force from the public,
21:37because whether you call it the force,
21:40but I always believe that accountability and public scrutiny is very important.
21:46It's not just the administration work that is required for EC to carry out,
21:51because they also need to know what's going on on the ground.
21:56And what's one thing you'd like to see changed, Henry?
21:59Well, I...
22:01Good question, Melissa.
22:02I think one thing that is that I would want to see more public people step up
22:09and step in and say that, yes, this is my beloved country
22:13and it's something that we need to own it together,
22:17because without that itself, we just...
22:19we cannot be just keep talking at the coffee shop.
22:24But, you know, when it comes to matters of change, you are just sitting back.
22:28Yeah.
22:29Because this is my slogan that I always take...
22:32that someone asked me before.
22:34He says, Henry, if it's not now, when?
22:39If it's not you, then who?
22:42You know?
22:42So, I guess that is my take on that.
22:45Danish?
22:46For me, one of the changes I would like to see,
22:48and this has to be codified in the regulation,
22:52is to have the Portuguese plan right to be very specific,
22:58to be drawn from NGOs who specialize in election reforms,
23:03or professional bodies,
23:05so that the EC is not confined to relying on civil servants to run elections.
23:10This will allow, through the participation of different groups,
23:17to understand the election process.
23:19And in that way, you can combat misinformation and disinformation,
23:22because you yourself were implementing the elections.
23:26So, we want that qualification.
23:29Right now, we are trying to push through with EC,
23:31we are trying to push through with returning officers.
23:33Okay, can you help me understand what the rationale is?
23:36From the EC side, what would be some of the trade-offs as to why not
23:40to allow for there to be a bigger pool beyond the civil service?
23:45It's about...
23:46First of all, you have to understand the election is largely managed
23:49by the returning officers, which is the government agency.
23:51So, the government agency's point of view is,
23:53I prefer to have my own people.
23:55Okay.
23:55Right?
23:56So, their mindset is still locked in that manner.
23:59So, if they want to consider outsiders, their concern is,
24:03will this person commit?
24:05Because for your information, we run this Portuguese program since 2019 or so.
24:11One of the requirements we ask for all our Portuguese candidates,
24:14you must serve for election-related matters on short notice,
24:18three to four days.
24:18I see.
24:19So, that's what you mean by, can this person commit?
24:21It's whether or not this person will show up, will turn up.
24:25So, for example, right now we are facing PR in Melaka.
24:28Right?
24:2860 days.
24:29Soon.
24:29So, anyone who signs up a Portuguese program with shortlist,
24:32you have to go, you have to get ready.
24:34If EC calls for a training this coming Monday, you have to go.
24:39I don't hear excuses.
24:41Okay.
24:41So, that's probably one of the considerations why.
24:44But how would you push back on that narrative, on that mindset?
24:48So, we have discussed in person with EC how to run a Portuguese program
24:54for the members of the public.
24:56Because we ourselves have developed this over the years since 2019.
24:59Basically, have a structured recruitment form with all the detailed criteria.
25:03If you visit our website and sign up our Patugas form,
25:05you actually will be spending ten minutes filling up our form.
25:08Because we are scrutinizing every aspect of who you are.
25:11Right?
25:11Then, next thing is training.
25:14At ten trainings early.
25:15Right now, for information, like Henry gets a briefing from EC two or three weeks
25:22or one week before the election.
25:24Okay.
25:24And that's it.
25:26Everything that he needs to know about the KTM is only done in one day.
25:29So, you need to increase the frequency.
25:32Right?
25:33Then also, you have to plan the whole deployment part.
25:36Right?
25:36Which you have to get returning officers to be comfortable.
25:39You need to have them to open up and start having members of the public.
25:44It's to your interest.
25:45Yes.
25:45Right?
25:46And then finally, you do the polling day support.
25:50It means, as Henry may have some questions on how to do certain,
25:56how to fill up certain forms.
25:57Who he should turn to.
25:59We, in Tindak, we have hotline running on one day before.
26:05Right.
26:05That this is something we have to do.
26:07So, we have an A to Z.
26:08We have told this to EC.
26:09They can just learn and adopt it.
26:11And we have pushed this out to EC.
26:13Okay.
26:13And feedback from the EC has been?
26:15They are trying their best to accommodate,
26:18but I noticed the resistance is still there.
26:21Not per se, 100% from EC, but it's from the returning officers.
26:25Okay.
26:25Well, thank you both for coming on the show and highlighting such an important topic.
26:29We are in election season after all, and I appreciate your time.
26:32That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
26:35I'm Melissa Idris, signing off for the evening.
26:37Thank you so much for watching, and good night.
26:39I'll see you.
26:42Bye-bye.
26:43Bye-bye.
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