00:00Okay, let's raise the big question then. Who really is running the election commission? Has the election commission become a
00:06one-man show headed by Gyanesh Kumar? Why were the two election commissioners passed, bypassed in many crucial decisions? Is
00:13it time for the EC to come clean with a more detailed explanation? And who will referee the neutral umpire?
00:20And should elections under Gyanesh Kumar now come under doubt? Questions to be raised. My first guest is Kapil Sipar.
00:28And let's move now to my next guest. We're joined by the senior Supreme Court advocate, eminent advocate and Rajya
00:37Sabah MP Kapil Sipar, who's taken a very strong line and said that Gyanesh Kumar must be suspended. Appreciate your
00:44joining us, Mr. Sipar.
00:46Do you believe that a chief election commissioner, no less, a constitutional functionary should be suspended prima facie on the
00:53basis of a newspaper story, particularly now that the other election commissioners in their press release have said there may
01:00have been disagreements, but all decisions that were taken were unanimous.
01:05So, on what basis are you calling for Gyanesh Kumar's suspension without necessarily giving him a fair hearing?
01:15Well, two responses to that. Number one, I also know that he's not going to be suspended because this is
01:21not an act of Gyanesh Kumar himself.
01:23These are instructions given to Gyanesh Kumar to control the elections throughout the country so that a particular party can
01:33win that election. That's number one.
01:35Number two, of course, Gyanesh Kumar is not a government officer, but if a person is a government officer, he's
01:41suspended and then a fair hearing is given.
01:43The suspension is a remedy that is always available to the government. But since this is a constitutional position, obviously,
01:51it's not going to happen.
01:52And the procedure for removing Gyanesh Kumar is similar to the procedure for removing a Supreme Court judge.
02:00So none of this is going to happen. But the act is so egregious that this requires some extraordinary steps.
02:07But I don't think it will happen. So it's a statement that I made only to suggest the nature, the
02:13egregiousness of the act.
02:15But the more important thing here, Rajdeep, is the following. Namely, that this act was not being done by him.
02:24And if you say that the two election commissioners have said that these decisions were taken anonymously, that's wrong.
02:30No election commissioner has said that. The two of them have not said that.
02:33On the contrary, the statement that is issued formally by the election commission through the additional director, which is the
02:40press release,
02:42only states that these are procedural issues and all decisions are taken unanimously.
02:48It's very simple. All three of them should come to the press and say we won't say anything more except
02:53for the fact that all the decisions have been taken unanimously.
02:55That didn't happen. That didn't happen. And that can't happen because that's not so.
02:59And there is still some media in this country which is still free, which is still responsible journalism.
03:09And I think that Indian Express is one of them.
03:15But let me ask you this. When you say that the acts committed of omission or commission of the election
03:22commission are egregious
03:24and therefore the elections effectively, you seem to be suggesting, were being controlled.
03:30I won't use the word rigged by not Gyanesh Kumar, but someone giving him instructions.
03:35That's a very serious allegation that you're making.
03:38Tell me what specifically, show me specific evidence based on what we've seen in the newspaper story
03:45that gives you a sense that this leads you to the conclusion that the elections were being controlled by someone
03:51other than Gyanesh Kumar
03:53so that one party, IE, presumably the BJP, the party in power would win.
04:00Okay, two things, two things.
04:02Number one, the entire IT structure was centralized.
04:06The ECI net, which is controlled for the purposes of audit,
04:12that was centralized when the West Bengal election was taking place
04:17for the simple reason that the power to access the voters list is given to the ERO under the law.
04:25That power was taken away. Why?
04:29No explanation for that.
04:32And the revelations in the Indian Express report suggest that opposition,
04:38both of the commissioners opposed it,
04:40that why are you taking the statutory right away of the ERO?
04:43Now, if that right is being taken away,
04:45obviously this is with a motive, no?
04:47To centralize the system.
04:49That's point number one.
04:51Point number two,
04:52the matters that are before the tribunal
04:56in relation to the West Bengal election
04:58have so far,
05:00as decisions have been taken by the tribunal,
05:04demonstrate
05:05that 91% to 94% of the deletions were wrongly done.
05:10Now, that can't be the work of one BLO.
05:14It has to be something that is...
05:17This kind of uniformity for every BLO for having wrongly deleted names
05:22can't possibly be true.
05:23That doesn't sort of...
05:25It's not consistent with logic and with human conduct.
05:29So that's the second issue.
05:30The third issue is that the Form 6
05:33was changed without consultation with the government of India,
05:37and I can't believe that the government of India didn't know about it.
05:41I can't believe that.
05:43That means the whole government of this country
05:45did not know that Form 6 was being changed
05:48without their consent.
05:53So what you're saying effectively
05:55is that a multi-member commission
05:57as appointed under Article 324
06:00to ensure the superintendents and conduct of elections
06:03was effectively converted into a single-man commission,
06:06which you're saying was taking instructions from above.
06:09That's, of course, unproven,
06:10but thereby was engaging in arbitrary acts
06:13of deletion and additions
06:15through a centralized software system
06:17and not by the ground-level EROs
06:20who are often SDMs.
06:22So broadly, what you're charging Gyanesh Kumar with
06:25is that Gyanesh Kumar had effectively chosen
06:29to take decisions arbitrarily
06:31through this software system.
06:32You're making a very serious charge
06:34that this entire software system has been rigged
06:36to ensure additions and deletions.
06:39Would a better approach be
06:41to have an independent audit of this
06:43rather than call for Gyanesh Kumar's suspension
06:46at this stage?
06:51You know, Rajdeep, you're a responsible journalist.
06:54You ask, you know, not that I can ask you the question
06:57because you are asking me questions,
06:59but I ask you a simple question.
07:01Is it possible that all the deletions
07:03that have took place and which have come to light,
07:0691% of a wrong are false?
07:08Yes, they should never have happened.
07:11Is it not a fact that 27 persons in Goa
07:15whose names were deleted,
07:17the ERO tried to tell them
07:18that please include their names,
07:20they are genuine voters.
07:21They were not included?
07:23Are these isolated examples?
07:25I ask you as a journalist,
07:27what would be your inference
07:29if these facts were correct?
07:32What would be your inference?
07:34And if you say that these facts are not correct,
07:36tell me what prime official evidence do you have
07:41Sir, I have for the last five months been raising red flags
07:46over the SIR process
07:48at the risk of being targeted for raising those red flags.
07:51So, I have been doing it consistently,
07:54but I ask you one last time, Mr. Sibbal.
07:58Do you therefore believe that all the elections
08:00that have taken place under Gyanesh Kumar's leadership
08:03therefore are now coming under scrutiny?
08:05Are you saying they are all dubious?
08:07I mean, what happens when the opposition wins an election
08:09like let's say in Kerala or in Tamil Nadu?
08:12Are we saying all elections
08:13or is this being selectively done?
08:15You're telling me that the software
08:16can be selectively manipulated to ensure
08:18BJP wins where it wants to win
08:20and allows the opposition to win in a couple of states.
08:26Okay, let me answer that
08:28very simply by saying
08:29that do you think that BJP
08:31will manipulate this process in Tamil Nadu
08:34where they have no presence?
08:36And do you think that they will manipulate this process
08:39in Kerala where they have no presence?
08:41Obviously, their task,
08:44see, look, they had to win Bihar
08:47and they had to win West Bengal.
08:51These are the two big states, right?
08:54And these things happen selectively.
08:57These things not happen en masse.
08:59They decide where to win,
09:00where they can't win and where not to win.
09:02So, you know, this kind of logic
09:04doesn't appeal to me at all.
09:07And you see, they are not fools.
09:08And if the fact is they never thought
09:11that this would come to light.
09:13And this is not the only reason, Rajdeep.
09:16Look at the way in which notices are being sent.
09:18Look at the way in which names are being deleted.
09:22And look at the way additions are being made.
09:24I mean, this is scandal.
09:26This is scandal of the highest order.
09:28And we have evidence in place.
09:30And I'm sure that in the next two couple of weeks,
09:33I will give you evidence
09:34because we are ourselves investigating this.
09:36This is the biggest scam that's happened in this country
09:39since elections became a norm.
09:46Okay, I'm going to leave it there, Mr. Sibbal.
09:49I'm going to wait and see
09:50what this new evidence is that comes up.
09:53But clearly, there are serious searching questions
09:55that the Election Commission has to answer at the moment.
09:59And that's why we are continuously focusing on this.
10:02I appreciate, Mr. Sibbal,
10:03you joining me here on the show tonight.
