00:12Welcome back. As we have been reporting over the week, Brazil is preparing for a milestone election next Sunday, October
00:184th, for general elections that will elect the president, but also will renew governorships and seats in the Senate.
00:24To debate more on the importance of this electoral date and to analyze deeper the circumstances that are surrounding the
00:31electoral campaign that reaches the final days, let's welcome international analyst and writer Ergon Kuller, who has a postgraduate degree
00:38from USP, a master's degree from FGB and a specialization from the University of Barcelona.
00:44He's also a member of the Coordinating Committee of the Barrao de Itarare Center for Alternative Media Studies, and he's
00:51with us to discuss about these final days of advertising and TV campaigns and the influence of AI.
00:56So welcome Ergon to From the South. Thank you for your time here with us today.
01:04Welcome and thank you. It's a pleasure.
01:06Ergon, my first question, we have seen in campaigns, electoral campaigns that usually in the traditional sense would take place
01:13in in-person rallies, the TV ads that run in TVs in the country.
01:19But lately we have seen that social media are having a greater impact when it comes to campaigns and especially
01:25with something that has been denounced recently even by President Lula and by many heads of states in the last
01:31UN General Assembly, the use of AI and its influence that it can have on social media, on voter persuasion.
01:38So, from your perspective, how has these electoral campaigns been taking place in social media and in digital spaces?
01:49That's an excellent question because here in Brazil basically we have two sides.
01:53By one side we have President Lula on the left wing when we have a lot of difficulties to take
02:00about this subject of communication on social media.
02:05But by the other side we have the experience since 2018 during the presidential elections that have elected Jair Bolsonaro
02:15where we had a lot of cases of disinformation being spread especially on WhatsApp.
02:21So, it's important to point that because by one side we have the traditional communication way to present the ideas
02:29on the left wing.
02:30But on the right wing, now represented by Flávio Bolsonaro, we have a lot of experience not only in open
02:38-ed social media like Instagram, Facebook and content potentialized by algorithms but also and specifically on closed communities like WhatsApp
02:49and Telegram.
02:49And in that situation, we have the influence of social media because more than only getting the contents on the
02:57smartphone and place it on the reality of each case that we have in Brazil because each person has a
03:04different perspective, a different characteristic of algorithms, for example, when we receive some content.
03:11But more than that, we have like an organic system that spreads a lot of content during the entire process
03:19of the elections.
03:20And in a case that we have the far wing more potential on social media but specifically on the closed
03:28communities, the result is that we have a lot of course of disinformation based on the case that we have
03:35more access on WhatsApp and we have not too much access on the fact-checked possibilities, for example.
03:43So the impact is directly by the fact that we have a lot of access but low possibilities to check
03:53the information.
03:55And as you were saying with low possibilities to check the information and to fact-check everything, how can institutions
04:01protect voters from this?
04:04How can they adapt and face these disinformation campaigns to protect the sovereignty of an electoral system?
04:13That's an important question because sovereignty is the key point during these elections.
04:18We have a lot of discussions based on how Donald Trump was trying to influence the elections here also.
04:24It's important to remember also that in March this year during the morning presentations that Claudia Sheinbao's on Mexico has
04:33presented discussions about communications and with popular creators, for example, we had a case that guy saying that he was
04:45aborted by the White House to align narratives and to present the ideas of the United States on Mexico
04:54during the electoral process.
04:56Here in Brazil, more recently, we had a similar case when we have some far-right creators being invited to
05:04go to the embassy here in Brazil of the United States to align also the narrative and the discussions with
05:11the White House.
05:12But I'm saying that because more than the algorithms, more than the rules that we have, more than the bills,
05:19more than the regulations, we have also influence who is caused by the White House.
05:26But specifically when we talk about the legislation, the rules here in Brazil, we have now innovations based by the
05:35TSE, who is our, like our Supreme Court, who talks about elections here in Brazil, who have transformed in forbidden
05:44to have AI manipulation during the electoral process, who has presented the rules about to not spread this information.
05:52But of course, the reality is too far distance from the legislation.
05:59And in the case of a lot of rules, a lot of legislation, we have the lies going much faster
06:05than the legislation and the regulations.
06:07So, of course, we have innovation during this election based on TSE's rules, but more than that, we have difficulties
06:16caused by generative AI content.
06:21Because in the last elections, if we see this case, we had the difficulty to spread this information.
06:27We had to have, like, a lot of cell phones, we had to have a lot of infrastructure, we had
06:32to have a lot of people, for example, creating content.
06:36But now, in these elections with the popularization of AI content and the tools to generate AI content, we have,
06:45like, the popularization of the possibility also to spread this information.
06:49So, summarizing the discussion here about legislation and rules, of course, we have a better scenario with that rules.
06:58But we have a lot of difficulties because more than just content, we have AI content who nobody can take
07:06care of all of them during the electoral process, of course.
07:11Eragon, you were referring to the need. You were referring about the lack of regulation in terms of AI and
07:17how quickly it is moving forward.
07:19And it is difficult for the institutions, for authorities to catch up, to be able to respond to the AI.
07:26So, I'm wondering, how will this election on Sunday, the possible results, will affect how Brazil tackles the AI issue?
07:34We have already seen President Lula denouncing AI and also establishing, trying to pass legislation in terms of banning and
07:42prohibiting AI,
07:43for example, in betting schemes in sports and things like that.
07:46So, how will this election affect the AI ecosystem in the future, depending on the results?
07:56See that here in Brazil, we have a lot of influence by the big tech.
08:02So, we have tried to regulate the social media. We have tried to discuss about this.
08:08But during the entire process, we had a lot of influence, saying also that Brazil is trying to put censorship
08:17in the entire internet, you know?
08:19So, we have the difficulty to discuss it here in Brazil, because they have made a lot of propaganda against
08:27the regulation here in Brazil.
08:29But even with that situation, in the last year, we have discussed some specific legislation, for example, to child and
08:38vulnerabilities, for example, like violence against women.
08:42So, we have new legislation in Brazil, that who is protecting the population, but it's so weak if we see
08:51the potential that we have during the elections.
08:54And in that case, that discussion about the impact of AI during the electoral process is so important.
09:01I believe that after this process, we have more possibilities to discuss that point.
09:07But it's important to remember who is winning and having more power during this process.
09:13Of course, who has the power is using AI, and who has the power is also on the parliament.
09:19So, we have this difficulty because we are trying to regulate something who is taking the position in a better
09:26way to those who are running the powers.
09:30So, we have to discuss, of course, but I believe that we have the possibility to show the deepfake situations,
09:37to show the AI manipulations, the information that we have during this entire process,
09:42to argue that we need to have a more safe place during the elections, but specifically before the elections.
09:50Because you know that the communities, you know that the network, you know that the entire ecosystem that we have
09:57in the internet is not created during the elections.
10:00It's created daily and every time during the discussion about the information and conspiracy theories, of course.
10:07So, we have not to promote censorship, of course, but we have to take place that the internet and the
10:14social media network should be more safe to have the information integrity to have better decisions during the elections.
10:23Thank you very much, Ergonculler, for your points and your time here in From the South.
10:33Thank you. It's a pleasure and I'm here for no more opportunities. Thank you.
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