00:00I think on the part of Malaysia, of Kuala Lumpur, of course, you know, I'm not an expert on Malaysia
00:06domestic politics, so my apologies in advance.
00:09But I think, you know, looking at the kind of statements that are coming out, it really has to do
00:15with, I think, you know, there's the burden, the financial burden on services and the kind of anxieties that, you
00:24know, the people in Malaysia,
00:26in the areas where the Myanmar nationals may have been, have been raising.
00:31So I think there are those, you know, domestic calculations that have motivated such a decision at this point in
00:40time.
00:41You mentioned diplomatic isolation of the Myanmar junta. Can we talk a little bit about that?
00:46But the Prime Minister has said that he needs to engage the Myanmar junta leader, General Minang Lang, for an
00:55official visit in return to discuss the refugee issue.
01:00But what are your thoughts on that, Mo? Does that inadvertently legitimize, give legitimacy to the Myanmar junta?
01:08I think here, Melissa, we will need to kind of differentiate on nuance, the nature of bilateral engagements and interactions
01:18with the regional consensus regarding the Five Point consensus,
01:23which is linked to, of course, the Nebido, the leader level at Nebido, not being able to be, you know,
01:34attend the ASEAN summits in person, that restriction, because it only exists at that level anyway.
01:41When we talk about diplomatic isolation, sometimes it's a bit disingenuous because Myanmar is still a member of ASEAN.
01:49And representatives, officials from Myanmar, from Nebido, attend all sectors of ASEAN meetings at different levels.
01:56It is only at that summit and the foreign minister's level where the restriction applies.
02:01And that is directly linked to the lack of progress in implementing the Five Point consensus.
02:07So here, what I would like to, I think, emphasize is we need to differentiate between what goes on bilaterally,
02:12bilaterally, which is in pursuit of specific, either strategic, political or economic interests on the part of both sides.
02:21And of course, diplomatic interactions have not stopped.
02:25You know, there has to be no cutting of diplomatic ties with Nebido.
02:30So we need to, I think, recognize that.
02:32But at the regional level, nobody has said we do not agree with the regional consensus.
02:39If I recall, at the informal meeting of ASEAN foreign ministers in Bangkok,
02:44the foreign ministers actually reaffirmed the validity of the Five Point consensus
02:48in response to Nebido's statements rejecting the Five Point consensus.
02:53So I think there is that thing.
02:54Nobody is kind of going against the Five Point consensus, but everybody now seems to,
03:00well, not everybody, sorry, I should qualify myself.
03:03Well, several countries in this region are now making calculations based on the kind of specific interests
03:09that they have with regard to interactions with Nebido.
03:13And on the part of Nebido, of course, they are capitalizing on that to try and hack away
03:17at the, you know, the diplomatic space that they have and conflating, you know,
03:23those bilateral interactions with the regional requirement.
03:28Mo, if I understand you correctly, are you saying that Malaysia can still work with Myanmar
03:36to resolve any issues regarding the refugee issue or repatriation programs
03:41without having to engage the Myanmar junta leadership?
03:47Is that correct?
03:47Well, you see, engagement does not necessarily connote acceptance.
03:53And as I mentioned, nobody has cut diplomatic ties with Nebido.
03:57So engagement for specific purposes that are, you know, geared towards addressing,
04:05I guess, you know, the interests that different capitals may have,
04:10whether they are strategic, political or economic.
04:12I mean, that's going on.
04:13And of course, I think we are in this kind of situation where we look at, you know,
04:22Malaysia's decision, we look at how Kuala Lumpur has been, you know,
04:26one of the stronger voices upholding the regional principles since 2021.
04:32And if I look back at the Bangkok informal meeting, you know, that was held in June
04:39among the ASEAN foreign ministers meeting, the foreign minister from Nebido,
04:43the reaffirmation of the validity of the five-point consensus do point to this differentiation
04:49that try as they may, Nebido's efforts to kind of break into that ASEAN consensus level
04:58by leveraging the diplomatic or the, you know, the interaction space at the bilateral level
05:04may not be as, you know, clear-cut and binary as Nebido may be calculating.
05:09Mo, were you surprised that Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim had agreed to host General Minalang?
05:16I'm just wondering how this would play out within ASEAN.
05:21Could this arrangement affect Malaysia's standing within ASEAN,
05:24given how vocal Malaysia has been, how vocal Anwar Ibrahim has been about the Myanmar crisis?
05:30Well, I think here, of course, what, you know, people might be looking for is the kind of
05:37the nuancing and the thought that is paid to how the bilateral level interests
05:45and the regional level kind of centrality of, you know, ASEAN's decisions and credibility
05:54are going to be differentiated. So I think Prime Minister Anwar has also mentioned
06:00to solve certain problems that exist between two, you know, between, say, Malaysia and Myanmar,
06:07he kind of like needs to talk to the leader in Nebido. And of course, you know, that is what
06:14goes on bilaterally. But if, you know, that does not necessarily going, you know, that's not going
06:21to necessarily automatically translate into, oh, you know, open the door to ASEAN again.
06:27So I think that's how I think positions need to be nuanced. And I think as long as the regional
06:35consensus that, you know, future re-engagement with Nebido is contingent on seeing demonstrable
06:45progress in implementing the important priorities of the five-point consensus for most cessation
06:51of violence, also humanitarian assistance, you know, access without discrimination. These still
06:58need to be worked out because, as you know, the civil war in Myanmar is continuing, is intensifying
07:05and, of course, adding, I think, to those security and humanitarian concerns of the deportees,
07:10as I mentioned, is, you know, they probably may not be aware of what kind of security challenges
07:16and situation they're going into. Just days recently, you know, we've heard of air attacks
07:22on civilian targets, you know, a marketplace. And this is, you know, something that we all need
07:31to take into consideration when this discussion about, you know, does bilateral engagements
07:40automatically connote the regional principles being relaxed or not? I think we need to consider
07:47that in terms of what happens bilaterally and what holds regionally.
07:53Mo, thank you so much for being on the show with me. I appreciate your time. Dr. Mo Thuza
07:57there from the ASEAS Yusofi Shah Institute in Singapore. That wraps up this episode of Consider
08:01This. I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching and good
08:06night.
08:23Thank you so much for watching. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
