00:00Why don't you just fill us in here? What's going on?
00:02So, Stefan, for context, there are five EU countries now.
00:05These are Greece, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria and Denmark
00:08in talks on setting up these return hubs.
00:10So these would essentially be detention centres for migrants
00:14who have no rights to stay in the EU outside the bloc's territory,
00:18so in foreign countries.
00:19And this was made possible by a new overhaul of EU rules, as you said.
00:23Now, these countries' migration ministers are due to reconvene in Munich over the weekend.
00:27They already met in Copenhagen earlier this month.
00:29They're fleshing out these plans and reports that they have also been in contact
00:34or in discussions with countries such as Rwanda and Uganda,
00:37but these are unconfirmed reports, no confirmation on where these hubs will be set up.
00:41So this comes, Stefan, as we know, migration becoming a very divisive
00:46and decisive as well factor ahead of a big year of elections in Europe next year.
00:51We know about the rise of IFD in Germany in recent regional elections.
00:56We also know the Ceuta crisis have catapulted this to the top of the agenda.
01:00And we see right-wing parties in Europe increasingly hardening their stance on migration
01:04for fear of losing votes to parties further to the right.
01:08We saw Giorgia Meloni in Italy over the weekend announce that she would be banning,
01:11for example, the burqa and the niqab in Italian schools,
01:14seen as a response to the rising support for the party of Roberto Banacci,
01:18which is further to the right.
01:19Now, Italy, as you'll remember, are already trialling a similar system
01:23of detention centres in Albania, but there have been questions
01:26over the cost of these centres, also over their efficiency.
01:30They've also been mired in legal problems.
01:32And there is a question now, if EU countries do move ahead
01:35with setting up these hubs, who pays, Stefan?
01:38And I spoke on this with Greece's Deputy Foreign Minister,
01:42Tassos Hativassiliou, excuse me for the pronunciation,
01:47and he told me that he, in fact, sees an opportunity here for Brussels to pay up
01:52as for these innovative solutions, he said, which could include these return hubs,
01:57for Brussels to pay up out of its next EU long-term budget,
02:01which is currently under negotiation.
02:03Let's take a listen.
02:05First of all, an effective migration system means effective return system.
02:09This is why we have to find innovative solutions
02:12to address this very difficult and important challenge.
02:15Otherwise, no returns means invitation to illegal migration to the European Union.
02:22So, yes, we try to define what those innovative solutions could be,
02:25along with other governments of the European Union.
02:28It's too early to define to you what are we thinking about.
02:32But at the same time, we need to do two things.
02:34First of all, to discuss it with third partners,
02:37I mean entities or countries outside the European Union.
02:40And secondly, to find all those funding mechanisms in order to make our ideas real.
02:47But we know that it is very difficult to get countries of origin to accept their nationals back.
02:54And this continues to be a problem.
02:56So, how is the return hubs really a solution?
02:59Isn't there a risk here that these migrants will become trapped in some kind of limbo
03:03if countries continue to refuse to repatriate their nationals?
03:07But we need to give incentives to third countries in order to cooperate with us.
03:11For example, when you have a country outside the European Union
03:14that receives millions or billions of euros as an assistance tool,
03:20then they have to accept the agreements they have signed and receive their nationals back.
03:27Otherwise, how could we continue working with them?
03:30And apart from that, we need to move towards new agreements with third countries.
03:35Let us discuss about legal channels of migration.
03:39Otherwise, the smugglers are going to define who is going to enter the European Union
03:43and not the European countries.
03:44We have to change it forever.
03:45This has come to the top of the political agenda, again, given what happened in Theuta recently.
03:51Do you think that the EU needs to reconsider these deals that it has with third countries
03:57and there needs to be some kind of repercussions on these countries
04:01when they are not receiving their nationals back in the way that they should?
04:06My personal view is that we have to redefine those agreements in a way.
04:10I mean, when a country receives huge EU funding for a reason,
04:14that means that this country has to accept the rules of the game
04:18and respect the agreements they have signed.
04:21This is why I'm talking about giving incentives to third countries
04:24in order to cooperate with us in the near future.
04:26I must ask you again, just on the return hubs, because you mentioned the financing.
04:31Yeah.
04:32That this will become a priority, but there needs to be money.
04:34And there's a question of whether states, many cash-strapped states, will be able to fund this.
04:40Should the EU be coming forward with funding for these return hubs?
04:45If we decide to implement any innovative ideas, that means that Europe has to find the adequate resources.
04:52To my opinion, MFF could be a solution to the problem.
04:56You know that there is a third hitting, the global Europe.
04:59Therefore, we could use some resources from the third hitting of the MFF in order to finance migration,
05:04and as I told you before, to support the external dimension of this issue.
05:09So we are here to discuss and find solutions along with the other EU member states.
05:13Are you disappointed that Commission President Ursula von der Leyen didn't make an announcement on this
05:19in her recent State of the Union speech?
05:20Would you have hoped to hear her say, yes, the EU and the European Commission can dedicate resources to this?
05:26No, I'm satisfied, and we're satisfied with what President von der Leyen has said.
05:30I think that we're all on the same page.
05:32But you would like the Commission to come forward and propose funding for these hubs?
05:36If we decide to do so, I think that the Commission would follow the path.
05:40But again, it's too early to see what's going on now.
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