00:00Grazie a tutti.
00:30So, the results of the PISA assessments for 2025, which have recently emerged, have really caused a stir.
00:37They've stunned us in Europe and across the OECD countries.
00:41Maybe perhaps for our viewers, could you start by reminding us what these tests are and why you initiated them
00:50in the late 90s?
00:51Yeah, you know, PISA is the kind of global metric of educational success, and it looks at success by testing
00:59what students actually know.
01:01We don't look just how many years they study or we look at, you know, what they can actually do
01:06with what they know in key subjects like, you know, science, mathematics and reading.
01:12And we started this because, you know, in the 90s, we measured success in education mainly by how much we
01:18spend on education or by how many years students sit in a classroom,
01:23which tells us actually quite little about the kind of capabilities that education produces.
01:29That was the motivation.
01:30And when you look at these results from 2025, what do they tell you about the trend in young people's
01:40skills and young people's learning?
01:41Well, the picture for Europe in particular is really quite concerning because it seems we are losing some of the
01:50skills that are particularly important for the times in which we live.
01:54We see that not only do young people have, you know, lower literacy skills, but we are seeing a decline
02:01on the capacity of students to triangulate information, to critically reflect on information, to engage with more complex texts.
02:10In a world of artificial intelligence, you know, those are really essential capabilities and it seems, you know, they are
02:18disappearing.
02:20We also see that majority of young people when, you know, pushed, whether I trust common sense or, you know,
02:29science, actually majority now votes for common sense.
02:33And again, you know, in the world of artificial intelligence, that's become really dangerous.
02:38You know, AI is common sense.
02:40It's very persuasive.
02:42It's very fluent.
02:43It's very compelling, but it's not necessarily accurate.
02:46And therefore, you know, that intuition that I check, you know, I verify should be really present.
02:52And education doesn't seem to be good enough to instill that.
02:55What do you say to those people who would argue that, well, the world has changed and perhaps these tests
03:03are no longer fit for purpose?
03:05Well, what I'm saying is precisely that the PISA assesses those kinds of capabilities that are particularly important in the
03:12world in which we live.
03:13You know, we know, we may no longer need to reproduce every piece of subject matter content.
03:20And that's why PISA doesn't pay so much attention on whether you can simply reproduce what you know.
03:25PISA looks at the capability of young people to extrapolate from what they know, apply, use their knowledge in novel
03:32contexts.
03:33Now, think critically, work with complexity, because those kinds of capabilities are actually incredibly important.
03:40You know, AI pushes us to think much harder what makes us human, where we can complement, not substitute, the
03:47artificial intelligence.
03:49And that's what we are focusing on.
03:50And that's where we see the biggest challenges at this moment.
03:54Would you go as far as to say that the meteoric rise of AI, and we know that in recent
04:01years it's been really rapid,
04:03is almost changing the way that young people's minds work?
04:08Is that fair to say?
04:10Do you see that from these tests?
04:12And if that's the case, can this be reversed?
04:15Because for many of us it seems like the speed at which AI is advancing could outpace any reforms that
04:22the educational systems could actually implement.
04:26Well, you know, humans have always been better to invent new things than to use them wisely.
04:31The relationship between AI and learning is really complex, but the bottom line is actually quite simple.
04:37You know, you do not get fit by watching sports.
04:40You get fit by doing sports.
04:42And the same is with learning.
04:43Learning doesn't come through the consumption of content, even if it's, you know, presented to you in a wonderful and
04:49dynamic ways.
04:50Learning is hard work.
04:51Learning comes by engaging with ideas, to, you know, compare, contrast, by, you know, committing yourself to process.
04:59And AI can hollow out that very process.
05:04That's why I think where we use those general purpose tools without pedagogical intent, indeed, we may be hollowing out
05:11exactly the capabilities that we need.
05:13The capacity of students to think critically, to reflect, compare.
05:16That's what we observe.
05:18However, you know, there are some really interesting examples also from people of countries that use AI very differently, where
05:27AI is really used to make you think harder, to make you think about the right questions, to give you
05:32more contextual information, to give teachers powerful tools to help, you know, students learn better.
05:38So, I think we just need to shift gears in, you know, getting away from a kind of consumptive use
05:44of AI to a more creative use.
05:47So, would you say that it is AI and technology that is driving this trend of decline, or is the
05:54picture a little bit more complex than that, you know, social, economic factors that are also at play here?
06:01Yeah, that's a difficult question.
06:02You know, we just observe correlations.
06:04What is quite clear is that, you know, the decline in complex reading skills has actually coincided with the rise
06:12of digital technologies, including AI.
06:14So, there is a clear correlation.
06:17Now, whether this is causal in nature is something that we cannot really answer from those kinds of questions.
06:22But, you know, when I look at social and economic conditions, you know, people have thought, you know, maybe it's
06:28the more diverse populations.
06:30We have immigration in Europe.
06:32We have looked at that.
06:33That is not the explanation for the decline.
06:36You can also not look at, you know, investment in education.
06:39In most European countries, actually, you know, we spent a lot more than we did, you know, five years ago,
06:44ten years ago.
06:45So, it's very hard to find, you know, the conditions of education as the driving force.
06:51Now, I think it's really to do with the behavior of people.
06:54And clearly, technology has an influence on that behavior.
06:59I give you an example, one that really struck me.
07:02You know, we found in Pisa that the students who do best in digital literacy were the ones who had
07:09read books over 100 pages.
07:12And you ask yourself, you know, how is that possible?
07:15But when you think about it, you know, if you read a complex book, you have to build a mental
07:20representation of things that are really not easy.
07:23You have to engage with different characters and how they interact.
07:26You have to memorize a lot of things, time-linked information.
07:29Those are precisely the skills that we need in the digital world.
07:33So, maybe, you know, some of the, you know, capabilities most important today are best built in the analog world.
07:39So, if we come back to the results from last year, I think they do paint quite a mixed picture
07:46when it comes to Europe.
07:48And particularly, I'm thinking about EU countries.
07:51You know, there are success stories.
07:52If we look at places like Estonia.
07:54Where do you see the biggest declines, the biggest causes of concern at the moment?
08:00And, you know, how could Europe work better together to address this if there are countries that are doing better?
08:07Surely, there are ways of collaborating to make sure that the standards are more consistent across the bloc.
08:13Absolutely.
08:14You know, the biggest declines are in the kind of large European countries.
08:19You look to France, you look to Germany, to Spain.
08:21The most interesting, you know, solutions are at the margins.
08:27These are usually small dynamic economies.
08:29There's a lot I think we can learn from them.
08:31You know, what I would encourage these large European countries is to look outwards.
08:36You know, sometimes the most innovative ideas do not happen right in front of you.
08:40They happen when you look, you know, sideways and, you know, engage with innovative works.
08:46You mentioned Estonia.
08:47It's a clear example of a country that remains successful that is also engaging with the digital world in a
08:54cautious but very thoughtful, very productive way.
08:56You can look at the Slovak Republic from still a quite modest, you know, point, significant improvements when everybody else
09:06saw declines.
09:07I think the UK is another of those examples.
09:12So I actually think, you know, we have a lot of interesting solutions in Europe.
09:16We just do not look at them, you know, with enough intent, really.
09:21Finally, sir, we mentioned at the beginning that you initiated these tests back in the late 90s.
09:28When you look perhaps at the year 2040 or even 2050, given that you've been following this for such a
09:36long time,
09:37where do you see us at that position?
09:41What does the trend tell us about where we are going?
09:45Well, I think the kind of capabilities that we need to develop among young people and older people,
09:52I think, will evolve very, very rapidly.
09:55In a way, the kind of things that are easy to teach, easy to test,
10:00are precisely the things that become easy to digitize, to automate.
10:04They are just disappearing.
10:05Our capacity to make ethical decisions, our capacity to navigate complex human relationships,
10:12our capacity to build and create something intrinsically new.
10:17I think those would be things that will become more important.
10:21Students as passive consumers, that's a thing of the past.
10:25Today, students need to be active learners.
10:28They need to take ownership over what they learn and how they learn and where they learn,
10:33even when in their lives they learn.
10:34And perhaps, if I may, for the parents and perhaps the teachers watching this,
10:40they might be wondering, well, what can they do to support this?
10:44You know, for the parent, the answer is really simple.
10:46One of the, you know, real concerns that I take from this PISA data is that,
10:50you know, parental interest in education in Europe has dramatically declined.
10:55And, you know, this is not about doing three hours of homework with your child at the kitchen table.
11:00This is a lot more about, you know, showing your child that the questions they are working on in school
11:05really matter to you.
11:07Where parents simply ask their children, you know, how was school every day?
11:11Children are two school years ahead.
11:13So, this is something that we should expect from parents, not to be the client of education,
11:18but actually to engage yourself.
11:20What we should expect from teachers is not enough to be a good instructor.
11:25You need to become a great coach, a good mentor, a good facilitator,
11:29sometimes as a social worker, to be, take a genuine interest in who your students are
11:34and who they want to become and to accompany them on that journey.
11:38Of course, you know, the education system needs to give teachers more time and more support
11:42to play that much more important role.
11:46Okay, so it was really fascinating to talk to you.
11:49Thank you so much for your time, Andreas Schleicher,
11:51the Director of Education and Skills at the OECD.
11:54Thank you.
11:59Thank you.
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