“Without NATO, Trump Is Nothing…”: Denmark PM’s Big Takedown Of U.S.-NATO Relations

Name: “Without NATO, Trump Is Nothing…”: Denmark PM’s Big Takedown Of U.S.-NATO Relations
Uploaded: 2026-09-09T14:41:42+00:00
Duration: 45 min 46 s
Channel: Oneindia

00:00very rich Russians and sending them directly to Ukraine. I mean, it's the circle of life or

00:07something like that. I mean, I'm not a bigger person than I really love that idea. So I think

00:14it's good, but it has to be combined with all our efforts as countries and as a European Union

00:23and as NATO to support Ukraine directly. Welcome to today's CFR meeting with Prime Minister

00:32Mette Frederiksen. She's served as Denmark's Prime Minister since 2019. I'm Linda Robinson,

00:39Senior Fellow for Women in Foreign Policy, and I'll be presiding over today's session.

00:45The audience today consists of council members joining us here in Washington and also over 200

00:51members on Zoom. We will now have about 30 minutes of conversation before opening up to questions.

01:01Prime Minister, thank you so much for joining us today. I would like to start by asking you to

01:06assess the state of the transatlantic relationship today. This is perhaps one of NATO's most consequential

01:15summits in its 75 years. Both U.S. and Europe are amid elections that are bringing to the fore basic

01:24questions and disagreements about the level of international engagement on a host of issues,

01:30from security to things like climate, trade policy, migration. So I'd just like to ask you to start by

01:37giving us your sense of the strong points of transatlantic consensus and also the frictions that are

01:44causing concerns. Thank you, and nice to see all of you. Well, first of all, I think, on the positive

01:53note,

01:54NATO is in a better shape than we were before the war returned to the European continent. NATO is stronger.

02:03We're bigger with two new countries included in the alliance. And what we have been able to do together

02:12in more than two and a half years now of war has been unexpected, I think. I think Putin and

02:20Russia

02:21underestimated the Ukrainians, of course. He underestimated Zelensky himself. He underestimated

02:29us, the U.S. and Europe. So to start with something positive, we have a stronger NATO than in many

02:39years.

02:41Many of us, including Denmark, are spending much more money now on defense and deterrence.

02:47I think all of us have to step up and to scale up. We'll come back to that.

02:52And the willingness of fighting for what we believe in and fighting for each other is we are on the

03:01same

03:01page. So that's on the positive note. If we also take a look into some of the challenges,

03:10I think we work and we move too slow. I think we have been too naive on Russia, too naive

03:20on China,

03:20China. And therefore, we have to speed up. We have to scale up. As Europeans, I agree when

03:31American presidents, Biden, Trump, Obama, have said, you have not done enough as Europeans. You have to do

03:43more on your own. I agree with them. Sorry for not delivering before now. I think we have to do

03:50more as

03:51Europeans. So the sense of urgency is growing, but it's not strong enough.

03:59Thank you. Yes, thank you. And I'd like to, I will go into great detail about all that Denmark and

04:05Europe

04:05have been doing and then get to the NATO specifics. But I'd like to just ask you to give your

04:11assessment of

04:12the status of the war in Ukraine. I know you've been there several times, I believe most recently in February.

04:19But Russia's been ramping up its attacks. And of course, we've seen these terrible attacks, including children,

04:27and casualty in the strikes on the hospitals. And despite the aid being provided recently, Ukraine says

04:36it still needs weaponry, and it's got a critical shortage of fighting personnel. So I'd just like to ask you

04:45to give us your view of the war. Do you think Ukraine's at a tipping point now? And how would

04:51you assess

04:51where we are in this war of attrition? Of course, it's a difficult question. I don't know about you,

05:02but I think it is extremely impressing how they are doing, the Ukrainians. I mean, they have been

05:08fighting for now more than two and a half years. And they are just, I mean, they're just continuing.

05:14But you cannot win a war on your own. And you cannot win a war if we, the rest of

05:20us,

05:20are only willing to give them something to defend themselves. Because they have to push Russia out

05:27of Ukraine again. And that's much more difficult in just defending. And to be very frank with you,

05:36we have not been able to give the Ukrainians what they need to defend themselves because they don't

05:41have air defense. You cannot protect a country if you don't have air defense. It's many,

05:46many months ago they asked us very concretely to give at least seven patriot systems. They have

05:52received two. And I think that that is one of our main problems because we have much more systems.

05:59You have a lot of them in the U.S. We still have a lot in other European countries. And

06:07as Stoltenberg

06:08said weeks ago when I were visiting him in Brussels, it's better to have air defense in Ukraine than to

06:15have them in Western, especially Western European countries. Eastern European countries is another.

06:21It's a different measure, of course. But in the Western part of the European Union, it's better

06:28used in Ukraine. And they cannot, I mean, you saw it in Kyiv just recently, yesterday and the day before

06:36yesterday. I mean, attacking a hospital for children. This is what Russia is about. Who else in this world

06:43would attack a hospital for children in a European capital? And I think this is the question we have

06:52to ask ourselves. Why have we accepted a full-scale war for more than two and a half years in

06:57Europe?

06:58And the only language Russia understands is power. Nothing else. So we need to give them more to

07:10ensure that they are able to defend themselves. But that will not be enough. They need the weapons and

07:17the systems that will ensure that they can push the Russians back. And it's two different updates.

07:26Thank you. One quick follow-up. In the ministerial foreign ministers leading up to the summit,

07:32Tony Blinken had called attention to these hybrid attacks that are reportedly occurring on the

07:37frontline states. The Baltics, I think, one may be attributed in the UK. And he spoke of individual

07:44or collective response to that. I don't see that that is happening. But do you have a view of what

07:50should be done if Russia is actually undermining directly NATO country security?

07:59But this is not a question about if they are. They are. And they do it every day. Russia is

08:06trying to

08:07destabilize the entire world society. We see it in Europe with hybrid cyber attacks. We see it in the

08:15Western Balkan area. We see it in Africa, in the whole Sahel region, where Russia is extremely active,

08:23destabilizing, not trying to destabilize. They are destabilizing many parts of Africa. You see what

08:29they're doing in the Middle East. So it's not a question about if. They are acting in an extremely

08:38aggressive matter every day. And we, as me, we have accepted this for too long.

08:46So let's talk about what Denmark is doing and has done. And I think it's also not clear to many

08:54in the U.S. here the magnitude of support that Europe has been giving on a financial, humanitarian,

09:00and military assistance front to Ukraine. To go back now to focus a bit on what has been this effort

09:08to date. And I know that there are a number of things. Denmark has pledged F-16s. There is the

09:16ammunition initiative. There's the bilateral security agreement. So if you would just kind of lay out

09:22what Denmark has done so people understand how much you have leaned forward.

09:30Well, first of all, we decided two and a half years ago that we wanted to be a front runner

09:35in our support

09:36to Ukraine. And we have managed to do that. You are mentioning our F-16s. They will soon be flying

09:45in Ukraine. And it's better to have them in Ukraine than in Denmark. We are still waiting for some F

09:51-35s

09:51from you guys over here to be able to protect ourselves as well. We decided to donate our entire

10:01artillery system. We don't have anything now in Denmark because it's better used in Ukraine than

10:06in Denmark. We have been very supportive of the Czech initiative on ammunition. It's working quite well.

10:13It's very old fashioned. So when I meet with my colleagues from the Netherlands and the Czech Republic,

10:21we are sitting with papers in front of us, you know, and on the left side of the paper it

10:27says how much

10:28ammunition do they need at the front line and how much can we buy from third countries or outside the

10:35European Union and how to finance it. So it's very concrete. It's very simple. We are doing a lot

10:41with humanitarian aid. And now the next project for us as Danes, and this I think is extremely important,

10:50is to finance directly the defense industry inside Ukraine because they work much faster than the

10:58rest of Europe does. So, you know, instead of donating or buying things, we are now going to produce

11:05it to support. It will be produced directly in Ukraine. So that's one of the next steps for Denmark.

11:14But from the very beginning, I have seen this war not primarily as a war in Ukraine. I see this

11:21as

11:21primarily a question about Russia and the dreams of building a big Russia again. They are, I mean,

11:29it's imperialism as we saw it many, many years ago. I don't think they are going to stop with Ukraine.

11:35I don't see any signs of Russia stopping with Ukraine. And therefore,

11:43from the very beginning, we have been extremely supportive and gladly with the full support from

11:49the Danish parliament and from the Danes. They have actively supported Ukraine from the very beginning.

11:56Um, but all of us have to do more. And if I'm right, and I don't know if I'm right,

12:02but if I'm right,

12:03that this is not primarily a question about Ukraine, even though it's the Ukrainians that are suffering.

12:10I mean, they're paying the Baha'i's price. It's the young, it's the young men who are dying at the

12:16battlefield. It's a question for all of us. And, um, I don't think Russia understands anything else

12:23than power. Because we have tried everything with Russia. I mean, the Olympic games, we unfortunately

12:31were buying gas from them. I've been against that from the very beginning. But I mean, we have tried

12:36many different scenarios, and none of it worked. And now we have to be very clear that in the modern

12:44world, 2024, you cannot decide upon borders with power. You have to respect democracy. And therefore,

12:54they need to be pushed back. Do you think that the accession of Sweden and Finland to NATO

13:00can make a signal difference in that? And how Russia will perceive the commitment of Europe to defend

13:08itself? Well, it is very positive that the two countries used this crisis opportunity to take the

13:20important decision about joining the alliance. So I think it's one brick that we have, we can work with.

13:29But the only thing that matters is that if Europe and USS, we are willing and we are able to

13:37defend

13:38ourselves, which means spending much more money on defense and deterrence. And we are willing to do

13:46whatever it takes to defend Europe, like we did years ago.

13:55I'd like to ask you about the recent decision by the EU to begin using some of the proceeds of

14:03the

14:03frozen Russian assets to give direct aid to Ukraine. How important a change is that? And do you think it

14:13will be forthcoming quickly? First of all, I think it's a good idea. We have been supported from the

14:22very beginning. And it's, I mean, on a personal level, I mean, taking money from very rich Russians and

14:31sending them directly to Ukraine. I mean, it's the circle of life or something like that. I mean, I'm not

14:37a bigger

14:38person than I really love that idea. So I think it's good. But it has to be combined with all

14:48our efforts as countries and as a European Union and as NATO to support Ukraine directly. When I became

14:57prime minister five years ago, we were spending approximately 1.3 on security and defense. Now we

15:05spent 2.4 in only five years. And that is the development that we all need. And asking me today

15:14will 2.4 be enough? No, I'm not sure it will be enough. So let, thank you. That's, let's go

15:20now to

15:21those commitments that have been growing by NATO and then talk about some of the things that you expect

15:27or wish to see at the summit. I believe it's 23 now of the 32 NATO members that are going

15:34to reach or

15:34exceed the 2% of GDP threshold in their defense budgets. But some are saying, as you just said,

15:41it might need to be higher. But at least this seems to be a signal, a step forward in the

15:48overall

15:48strengthening of the European pillar of NATO, as is often said. So would you talk a little bit more

15:55about this? Because I think it's down in the weeds of the defense issues, but it's very important that

16:03people understand that Europe hasn't really had a robust defense industrial base. And there are a

16:10number of measures now that are being undertaken to support growing that defense base and joint

16:18procurement and interoperability, this sort of complex of things that will make Europe stronger together.

16:25Well, I think the starting point is that we recognize from a European perspective that you

16:30guys have been right. I said it before, I mean, it's, it's, it must have been a bit strange for

16:36Americans to watch Europe. I mean, you saved us during the Second World War. And after that,

16:43you continued to spend a lot on security and defense. And many European, not all European countries,

16:50countries, especially some of our friends in like in Poland and so on, continued to spend enough on

16:58security and defense, but countries like Denmark and many others. I mean, we could, we could, instead of

17:04that building great welfare societies in, I mean, during the last couple of years spend much more

17:16money on climate change and so on. And at that time, you know, looking at US thinking, well, if

17:23something really serious happens, they will come and help us. And we still need you to help us if

17:28something really serious happens, because that has always been the case, it will also be the case in

17:33the future. But but of course, you can expect from us that we are as rich countries are willing

17:43to spend enough on our common security, not on European community security, but on common security.

17:51We are now in a much better place when it comes to that. But I think Europe has to do

17:57much more,

17:58much more. Because looking at the African continent, with all the conflicts coming up,

18:06with regular migration, with the risk of terror, if you look at the West Balkans, if you look at

18:13some of our neighboring countries, nearby Ukraine, like Georgia, where now it's more fragile and

18:23Moldova. If you look at the Middle East, all of these regions are closer to us than it is to

18:28you.

18:29So we need to be able to do more in these areas. And therefore, you're totally right. This is all

18:37about

18:38building a stronger European pillar inside NATO. I will never support anything European against

18:46NATO. It always has to be combined with the efforts inside NATO, because I'm a transatlantic by heart.

18:57So for me, NATO is number one when it comes to security. But the European pillar has to grow stronger.

19:04And it's a question about resources, money, but also, as you said, our industry and all the new areas

19:15when we are talking about security, like quantum, like space, like AI, like technology. Because if you

19:24look at Europe today, we are buying too much from China when it comes to technology. And we need that

19:34pillar to be stronger in our view on security as well.

19:39There are so many questions regarding NATO we could go into. But I want to ask one last one and

19:45leave to

19:45the audience issues like the fact that NATO now is a China policy and that the alliance has leaned

19:53forward on a lot of developing a strategy, making collective defense commitments by country, defensive

20:02deployment, so many things I think that people, the casual observer may not be aware. But I'd like to

20:09come back to the summit deliverables. I know that this defense industrial initiative is one of the

20:17centerpieces. But the deliverables regarding Ukraine, NATO has not reached consensus on offering Ukraine

20:24membership in NATO. But there is talk about a one-year pledge of aid, possibly some bilateral further

20:33movements on air defense. What are you looking for as a signal out of this summit to give further

20:40reassurance to Ukraine that they will not be left fighting, perhaps a losing battle here?

20:49First of all, I think the most important commitment is to say that we will never accept Ukraine

20:55to lose this war. And I think that is the spirit of NATO today. That's the most important thing.

21:04Membership is, of course, important. I am a strong supporter of membership for Ukraine into NATO.

21:14And I think we will take some steps forward during this summit.

21:22Then we have concrete deliveries. That is not a responsibility for NATO. But if we see the concrete

21:28deliveries at the NATO summit, that will be good. And I think we have a, after this summit, we have

21:36a

21:37stronger NATO framework when it comes to Ukraine. So I think actually the deliveries are there. And then you

21:45mentioned China. Of course, we have now China policy in NATO. And we have to focus much more on what's

21:53happening in this

21:54part of the world. For the, I think it's the third year now, where, as a part of the summit,

22:01we have, as you probably

22:02know, a discussion with our friends and partners from Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, and Australia. And the signal that

22:14that they are a part of the summit is important in itself. And now it's almost like a tradition.

22:22And so I think there are some concrete deliveries. But I mean, the willingness of being NATO, spending much

22:31more money, and supporting Ukraine is, yeah, that's the key issues.

22:36Thank you. Well, I'm going to truncate the rest of my questions and turn to the audience now,

22:41as we do have to end a few minutes early, given your schedule. I'd like to invite the members here

22:47and on Zoom to join the conversation with their questions. Please state your name and affiliation.

22:53And I remind you all that this meeting is on the record. And we will start with the question here

22:59in

22:59Washington, please. Doug. Thanks very much, Linda. Prime Minister, it is quite an accomplishment to go

23:09from less than two percent to about two and a half. Mike, and you say you need a lot more.

23:14And I think

23:15many of us will agree with you. Do the publics agree with you? Because clearly, the more you spend on

23:23defense, unless you want to run up huge deficits, which I don't think you do, the less you're going to

23:29spend on social welfare. How's that going to work for you?

23:36Oh, and I didn't, I didn't, in case you want to do something behind my back.

23:42My name is Dov Zakheim, and I was an undersecretary of defense, and now with CSIS.

23:51Yeah, but that is an important and a difficult question.

23:58I would say, I think that the Danes have been very focused and extremely supportive of Ukraine.

24:10My guess is that, if you ask the Danes, I haven't seen the numbers recently, but if you ask the

24:15Danes,

24:16my guess would be that somewhere in between 80 or 90 percent of the Danes are still fully supportive

24:23of Ukraine. It's probably one of the highest numbers in the western part of the world.

24:31I'm of course very proud of that, and it makes it much easier to be an active prime minister in

24:38this

24:38question. No matter what, I would have done the same. And you cannot win a war and you cannot protect

24:53NATO if you are not willing to do it no matter what, as leaders. So I don't think you can

25:01make a

25:02strategy when it comes to war, depending on the support or the opposite. You have to do what you

25:10think is necessary for this world. And at the same time trying to convince people that this is the

25:17right direction, but you cannot never be sure about it. And you are right, if Europe have to spend more

25:23on deterrence and defense, and I think we have two, then we have less in other areas. We have started

25:31that discussion, but it's not finished yet in Europe. And it will, I think, demand some changes

25:39within the European Union and how we look at also economics. And as a social democrat, I will be

25:48very hard on the question about a social balance in the coming years. Because if we are not, I mean,

25:55if we're not taking care of our own at the same time as we are trying to win this war,

26:00then we will

26:02not have the necessary support. So it has to be balanced. Thank you. Yes, please. We'll take, we have

26:09quite a few questions here. Let me take this question in back, please. And then we'll go out to our

26:17virtual members. Thank you, Prime Minister. My name is Jane Kinnanmont. I was one of the

26:22independent experts appointed by the Secretary General to report on NATO's policies and partnerships

26:28towards the southern neighbourhoods, along with a Danish expert, Katja Jakobsen and others. And I

26:34wondered if you could say something about how you think NATO should approach the Middle East and Africa.

26:39What's its role there when it also has so much to do looking east? Thank you.

26:47That's a big question. If you allow me, I think I will focus on Africa, because I think Middle East

26:52is

26:52something very different. I don't know if we have time for both. But if we look at Africa,

27:01we share the same concern, the African Union, the European Union and NATO.

27:06The whole Sahel region is now totally destabilised. And unfortunately, some of our good friends,

27:15good democratic countries have almost been turned around. And therefore, because we look at the same

27:25challenge, we share the same interests in Africa as the African Union. I think that, to be very short,

27:34one of the ways forward is for the European Union and NATO to support the African Union to be able

27:42to be in control in Africa, to be very short. And therefore, the fight against terrorism,

27:50which today is also a fight against Russia, because Russia is very supportive in the Sahel region.

27:58We could do that together. But the African Union can only do what is necessary in Africa if they get

28:05more resources and if they get the measures that they need. And we could support them with that,

28:11both as NATO and as a European Union. So asking me the partnerships with the Global South are becoming

28:19more and more important. You guys know much more about Latin America. I can just say from a European

28:25perspective that I think we have to interact much more with Latin America. As I said before,

28:34the partnerships with some of the Asian countries are growing stronger. And therefore, the cooperation

28:41globally has to be top of mind in the coming years. Thank you. Let's take one more in the room

28:48here,

28:48and then we will go out to the virtual audience. Chris. Thank you. Chris Isham with CT Group.

28:55Prime Minister, I wonder if you could talk a little, you mentioned that we have to do more with Ukraine.

29:00I wonder if you could talk a little bit more specifically about what kinds of weapon systems you would like

29:06to see

29:06them getting or what kind of timeline. And also discuss a little bit some of the restrictions that

29:12have been placed on the weapon systems that have been delivered to them, like the attackums.

29:16How do you feel about that? Do you think those restrictions should be looser? Thank you.

29:21The timeline is the easiest part. It's now, or yesterday, or the day before yesterday, or a year ago,

29:29and two years ago, instead of in a year, in two years. I think we have been reacting too slowly.

29:36To be very honest with you. Two and a half years is too long time for a war just to

29:43proceed. So the

29:45timeline is now. If you are asking me, I'm not working with any red lines. I think it's very

29:52difficult to win a war if you put on red lines on the table that your enemy can read. Of

30:01course,

30:01we need to discuss with allies about this. But I'm not working with red lines. The red line I have

30:09is

30:09that Russia cannot decide upon the future of Europe. Thank you. Let's go out. And then it has to be

30:34a little bit more.

30:35Thank you for taking my question. I'd like to ask you about the looming political uncertainty in the

30:42United States and how that is affecting the way that NATO leaders in Europe are thinking about

30:48this moment, given President Trump's past statements about potentially not respecting

30:55Article 5 commitments and trying to sort of pick and choose about what the United States will and

31:01won't do for NATO. How is that factoring into your thoughts at this moment and your planning for

31:09your country's defense and what other leaders in Europe are doing ahead of the US elections in November? Thanks.

31:20First of all, I am hoping, I'm praying for, I'm expecting that the transatlantic alliance will be

31:29strong and alive also in the coming years. It's one of my biggest hopes for our common future. So

31:36hopefully, no matter what will happen in the US, that will be the case. A US without NATO is not

31:44a

31:44strong US. Europe without NATO is not a Europe. So I mean, we have to stick together. And I think

31:51we

31:51have shown now for 75 years what we can do together. And asking me, we should go the opposite way,

31:59building a stronger NATO, not, of course, the opposite. Just saying that, no matter what conclusion

32:07you will make in the US, I think in Europe, the conclusion has to be the same, that Europe has

32:12to be

32:13able to do more on its own. Never against US, and never in a conflict with US. I have said

32:20it to the

32:21Danes that I don't want a single paper to come between US and Europe. Because our enemies are

32:28only hoping for this. They are dreaming about a conflict between Europe and US. So we can never

32:34let that happen. But no matter what, Europe has to do more. And that was my starting point. And I

32:40would

32:40like to repeat it. Because I think that the best way forward, also in a NATO with

32:52another president is the willingness of Europe to do what we have to do. That's my guess.

33:01And, well, it's up to the voters who will lead the countries in the alliance. I think it's up to

33:10us

33:10leaders to be able to work with everyone who is elected by their populations, and to find the best

33:18way forward. But there is only one way forward. And that is a strong NATO that is willing to protect

33:25itself. And I hope that US will stick to that position. You have saved us once. And please stick

33:33to that way of working. Thank you. Let's come back into the room here. Sherry, please.

33:41Good morning. Hi. I'm Sherry Hakimi from Perth.org, which is actually a

33:45Danish-American civil society organization. Prime Minister, you've been a very strong champion for

33:50Transatlantic Partnership and Defending Democracy. And one of the best ways that you walk that talk

33:55is through the Global Partnership for Action on Gender-Based Violence and Online Harassment and

34:00Abuse. Right now, only about a quarter of NATO member states are part of the Global Partnership.

34:06And I'm curious if there are any efforts to bring other NATO members into the partnership so that we

34:10can see it strengthened. And then, given that you have also faced TFGBV, Technology Facilitated Gender-Based

34:16Violence, what you would personally like to see us be doing more of? What would I like to see?

34:21What would you personally like to see us doing more of to address TFGBV?

34:25That would be a new acronym, Technology Facilitated Gender-Based Violence. But the Global

34:30Partnership has a simpler name of online harassment and abuse. And Denmark was a founding member, I believe,

34:40of this initiative. Well, let me be very frank. I think what we are facing now with new technology

34:53and especially with social media, I think is the most challenging

35:02conflict for democracy in front of us. The most challenging thing in front of us.

35:10The social media are dividing us.

35:15They make us less clever as human beings.

35:23We are reading

35:27more social media now than books. I mean, we have been fighting for thousands of years to be

35:35to be clever and to be stronger as human beings. And now it's almost going the opposite way.

35:40So I think we have to be very tough on the tech giants, very tough. We are not tough at

35:48all at the

35:49moment. I think we have to control the social media in another way, especially when it comes to kids,

35:56young ones. I'm personally in favour of an age limit. I want our kids to be out of all kinds

36:06of

36:06social media when they are beneath 15 years old, especially TikTok. It's damaging our kids.

36:15And when it comes to democracy, I am extremely worried about the development from the old

36:21newspapers and old media and so on, broadcasters, public service into social media. So I will do

36:29anything to support whatever it takes to ensure democracy to live. And the things you are talking

36:37about is a part of this. Because if we don't feel safe, no matter if it's because of our gender

36:44or if

36:45it's because we are politicians or anything else, then democracy do not work. So I am very supportive.

36:54Thank you. Yes, please.

36:58Prime Minister, thank you. My name is Benjamin Schmidt. I'm running a research program at the University of

37:03Pennsylvania on critical infrastructure protection across Northern Europe. And I've had the pleasure of

37:08being in Denmark many times over the past few years doing this research, including on Bornholm and every

37:13corner of Denmark. So thank you again for your leadership. What I'd like to say is, you know,

37:18we've seen through this program for the past two years, not even just the past six months, where there's

37:23been this pickup of hybrid and grey zone attacks. Subsea telecommunications cables near Svalbard get cut,

37:29of course, the Nord Stream blast, the Baltic connector pipeline, a number of rail lines, and

37:35other energy infrastructure across Europe has been attacked, many of which have at least significant

37:43evidence pointing towards Moscow, if not already been attributed. So my question is, at what point,

37:49even if these don't raise to the level of Article 5 through NATO, that member states will begin Article 4

37:57consultative mechanisms to start that attribution process and actually raise this and hopefully use

38:03that to deter Russia from any future hybrid and grey zone attacks on infrastructure. Thank you again.

38:11Well, first of all, thank you for looking into Danish critical infrastructure. I did not know you were

38:15doing that. Thank you. And when you're listing some of the events we have seen just in a few months,

38:25it sounds like a bad movie, right? And I think that's our main problem. And it was a bit the

38:34same

38:35feeling I had before the attack on Ukraine. It was like we could not understand that Russia were going

38:42in a full-scale war in Europe. But they were. And they are attacking, as I said it before. I

38:48think

38:48they are attacking us every day now. Not only with uncritical infrastructure, hybrid attacks, cyber

38:55attacks, disinformation, but also on migration. We have seen it in Belarus, into Lithuania. We have seen it

39:05on the Finnish border that they are using migrants to destabilize into European countries.

39:12And all of it is a part of modern warfare. I mean, that's what we are looking into. So I

39:18think we have

39:18to take it much more seriously. And it has to be prioritized in NATO, because I think we have to

39:27look

39:28at it as an attack on us, instead of just, well, now something again happened, and again, and again,

39:35and again. So I think we are being too friendly in our reaction to this.

39:42So I'd like to just follow up to see if that means it reaches the bar for an article for

39:47decision. I know NATO has created a hybrid center of excellence, cyber center of excellence, so we've got

39:54a lot of study. Is it time for a next step? I don't think it's on this stage we will

39:59take that NATO

40:00decision. And of course, it's something that we really have to look into together with our allies,

40:07but I guess you can hear when I'm listening that I think we are simply being too polite.

40:16So we have another question here in the middle. I'm not, yes, I don't want to neglect our virtual

40:21audience. So let's go for one, and then we'll go out. Yes.

40:26Thank you for taking my question. I'm Alexandra Starr with International Crisis Group.

40:31I wanted to ask a question with the domestic fear. You spoke about immigration, and you know,

40:39Denmark has taken some of the toughest lines on immigration within Europe in the past few years.

40:46I was wondering how you would respond to criticisms that the parallel initiative society, the parallel

40:54societies initiative is discriminatory and works against creating a more cohesive Danish society.

41:04Well, first of all, you are totally right. We have been taking some quite tough measures on

41:09migration. And I am a strong believer that it is a necessary way forward for all of us. We need

41:18to be

41:18in control with our own borders as Danes and as Europeans. The current system of especially asylum

41:28seekers is totally broken, totally broken. If you look at what happens in the Mediterranean,

41:38it is the few ones with money enough and with the strongest physical

41:50health situation. It's the smugglers who decide who will enter Europe and who will not.

41:58So that's our first problem, that the system is broken. Disabled people, old people, women,

42:04children, children will never enter Europe. It's primarily young men. That's problem number one.

42:10Problem number two is that if you receive too many people from outside, you will simply not be able to

42:16have a sustainable society, I think. And therefore, you need to be in control with your borders.

42:27When you reach that position, when you reach that position, then you will be able to help many more

42:32people outside Europe. And you can take under control matters the amount of people that you think

42:41you can help inside Europe. But not millions as we have seen in the past years. And I'm saying this

42:50as a social democrat, because I can see in Denmark and in Europe who pays the price

42:55if you're not in control. It's not the richest people. It's not the people with the highest education.

43:04Because the top of society will always provide good schools for their own kids

43:08and live in safe neighborhoods. They will not travel by buses or by suburbs and so on. They will be

43:17able to

43:17take care of their own and themselves. But the poorest part of the society, the low skilled workers and so

43:25on,

43:26people who are living in areas where the crime scene has changed rapidly, also in Denmark, they pay the price.

43:34And as a social democrat, I cannot accept that. You are right, we have taken some legal measures

43:42to ensure that we will not have parallel societies in Denmark. I am a big fan of it, because I

43:51want

43:51the Danes to be mixed. I don't like an ethnically divided Denmark. I don't like a divided Denmark in any

44:01aspects. I am a strong believer that we have to go to the same kindergartens and schools and

44:08secondary schools and universities. We have to live in the same neighborhood. We have to play football

44:14or whatever, rugby or whatever you want to play together to know each other, because otherwise I

44:21don't think people want to pay tax to each other, to be very short. So what we have tried to

44:27do is to

44:28ensure that you will not get an ethnically divided Denmark with areas where especially migrants from

44:36or asylum seekers from Africa or Middle East live and be separated from the rest of the society.

44:44I can go into details another time, but I think what we have done on these areas is important

44:52to ensure opportunities to all. That's exactly what it's about. I'd like to give the last question to

44:58Mike Froman, our president. All right, do we have time for one more? Unfortunately, I guess because of

45:07the schedule you're on, I'm being asked to close us out, so I want to ask everyone to please

45:12thank the Prime Minister for her time, and I would like to let you know the transcript and video will

45:26be posted on our site, and to invite you to come today at 1215 to hear the Greek Prime Minister.

45:32Thank you all very much.

“Without NATO, Trump Is Nothing…”: Denmark PM’s Big Takedown Of U.S.-NATO Relations

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