Go to School or Have a FAMILY! Call In Show

Stefan Molyneux

Philosopher Stefan Molyneux breaks down the choice between art school and a family in this call...  0:00:00 Childhood and Family Strain  0:04:39 Early Adulthood Violence  0:07:14 Trauma’s Lasting Grip  0:13:38 Father and Control Issues  0:24:31 Healing and Future Plans  0:31:51 Love Under Pressure  0:42:27 Family Roots and Divorce  0:45:55 Wanting Better Relationships  0:49:02 Career Ambitions and Reality  1:05:30 Amsterdam Plan  1:10:35 Dating, Time, and Tradeoffs   JOIN ME IN NASHVILLE SEPTEMBER 12! https://wordwardebate.com/  Use code STEFAN for 10% off!  GET FREEDOMAIN MERCH! https://shop.freedomain.com/  SUBSCRIBE TO ME ON X! https://x.com/StefanMolyneux  Follow me on Youtube! https://www.youtube.com/@freedomain1  GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND THE FULL AUDIOBOOK! https://peacefulparenting.com/  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  Subscribers get 12 HOURS on the "Truth About the French Revolution," multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material - as well as AIs for Real-Time Relationships, Bitcoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-In Shows!  You also receive private livestreams, HUNDREDS of exclusive premium shows, early release podcasts, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon! https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/FREEDOMAIN2026

Transcript

00:00:00So I guess I just kind of wanted to kind of go over a little bit of kind of some

00:00:06of my past and kind of just see, you know, what you thought in terms of, I guess, just where

00:00:18I am now and where I can go from now with, I guess, my past.

00:00:22So I guess I'll just kind of give you a little brief story of my past.

00:00:29So I grew up pretty normally.

00:00:32I didn't really have like a bad childhood by any means.

00:00:36I had actually a pretty great childhood, but I had some weird kind of situations with my father growing up

00:00:42where I was kicked out of the house when I was like probably 16 by him and his partner, which

00:00:51I guess would be my stepmom now.

00:00:55And from there, kind of things kind of got weird where I just had like a weird relationship with my

00:01:04dad for most of my life because of that.

00:01:08And we're just never really close.

00:01:12And I ended up did moving back in with him probably like a couple of years after that.

00:01:16But that kind of I would just say like kind of sold our relationship.

00:01:21But we're actually a lot closer now in my life, but it just created a lot of just strain in

00:01:31our relationship.

00:01:31And as well as just like emotional turmoil in my own life, just of kind of the understanding of me

00:01:39and my dad.

00:01:40And then I would also say too, just in general, too, before that even happened, my relationship with my dad

00:01:49was always very intense.

00:01:52Hence, he was always just very like judgmental of me and kind of like very harsh on everything kind of

00:02:03I was doing in life.

00:02:04And I would just say it like kind of created just a certain way in how I think about things

00:02:11like maybe in how other people view me or how I even portray myself.

00:02:17I would say it definitely affected that a lot and then also to my brother, he was kind of the

00:02:27same way like he was very much so like branded in his image and was like this kind of perfectionist

00:02:35and kind of like the golden child in the family.

00:02:38And so I also just felt very criticalized by my brother as well, too.

00:02:47And so that kind of added to the whole entire situation.

00:02:51And that was kind of I would say like the main kind of one of the main traumatic experiences I

00:02:57had in my life that I feel like really affected me.

00:03:00And then another part too was around that same time kind of or a little bit before actually when I

00:03:08was in middle school in like eighth grade, I had a friend that had moved from a different city and

00:03:15I introduced him to all my friends.

00:03:19And we were like, you know, pretty good friends and basically he ended up fighting me in this is like

00:03:31the end of eighth grade.

00:03:33And for no reason, just like beat the shit out of me at this like local park that I was

00:03:40hanging out with another friend of mine.

00:03:41And so the next day at school, he told everyone that he beat the shit out of me.

00:03:47And basically, I watched like all my friends and these were people to mind you that I introduced him to

00:03:55and like helped him create friends with from being like out of towner.

00:04:03And I dealt with a lot of shit from that, I would say that was like another huge kind of

00:04:10traumatic experience in my life where I watched a lot of friends of mine, I'd realized weren't friends of mine

00:04:16and like this sense of betrayal.

00:04:18And then also, of course, just like the trauma of like, you know, being beat up by one of my

00:04:22friends for no reason.

00:04:26And I would say those are kind of the two main points, but there's like some other things I can

00:04:32probably weave in there as we like talk a little bit more.

00:04:35Weave away, I'm happy to hear.

00:04:37Yeah.

00:04:40Let me think.

00:04:42I would say some other pretty traumatic stuff, too, is like I lived in L.A. for probably like seven

00:04:50or eight years.

00:04:53And when I lived out there, I definitely had some like weird situations happen to me.

00:04:59Currently now in my life, I'm completely sober.

00:05:02But at the time when I was living in L.A., I was like definitely drinking quite a bit.

00:05:07I wasn't like necessarily like an alcoholic, but I was like partying and getting into mischief.

00:05:13And there was like a couple scenarios where like I was out and about drinking with friends and like got

00:05:20in some fights.

00:05:21And like I ended up getting in a fight once where I dislocated my radius and ulna and fractured my

00:05:30left cheek.

00:05:31There's also another night where I got really messed up and I ended up getting stabbed.

00:05:37And I don't even remember it happening.

00:05:40There was another incident, too.

00:05:43This was actually had nothing to do with drinking at all.

00:05:46But I lived in kind of a shifty area when I was living in L.A. at one point.

00:05:50And I was outside of my house.

00:05:53And there was like a crazy schizophrenic homeless guy that was walking around.

00:05:58And he came up to me and my friend.

00:06:00We were waiting outside for another one of our friends to show up.

00:06:03And he basically like pulled up right in front of my face like he was right in my in like

00:06:12all up in my business.

00:06:14And he was just like yelling all this shit in my face.

00:06:18And then he had a knife like right at my stomach.

00:06:22And I basically had to like talk him out of it for a good probably five minutes or so until

00:06:28he'd walked off.

00:06:31And that was pretty traumatic.

00:06:33And that was actually the like kicker of me like leaving L.A.

00:06:36Because I was like I can't live in this city anymore.

00:06:41But I would say those are probably a few other main kind of traumatic experiences of mine as well, too.

00:06:49And how long ago did you leave L.A.?

00:06:52This was three years ago I left.

00:06:55So now I live in Orange County now.

00:06:58And I was living there from when I was 19 to like probably 26, 25.

00:07:07Got it.

00:07:08Okay.

00:07:09Okay.

00:07:10And how can I best help you today?

00:07:14I guess I kind of just wanted to go over all this stuff and kind of just see what you

00:07:23would think in terms of like the best way to I guess absolve or that's not even the right way

00:07:32to put it.

00:07:33I would say like how would you recommend I like go forward as like getting rid of the trauma or

00:07:47like finding how to be like a better self version of myself.

00:07:56That kind of gets rid of some of those like programs that that trauma puts on you.

00:08:04Okay.

00:08:05All right.

00:08:06So why do you think you're so comfortable with violence?

00:08:14I don't know.

00:08:15I would say I'm probably a bit desensitized to it.

00:08:22Sorry, that's not a very long answer.

00:08:24I need you to dig in a little more.

00:08:26I don't know, honestly.

00:08:29All right.

00:08:29So I'm not sure how to have the conversation.

00:08:31If I ask you a question, you just say I don't know.

00:08:33I mean, nobody else knows, right?

00:08:35I mean, you got into a lot of fights and you tore a radius and like just bad things, right?

00:08:45I mean, you got into some, I mean, seriously dangerous fights.

00:08:48I mean, you get brain damage, you get killed and, you know, this sort of stuff, right?

00:08:51And most people, at least a lot of people, try to like have a particular issue with violence, right?

00:09:01Like they try to avoid it.

00:09:02And I'm not saying you didn't try to avoid it or anything like that.

00:09:04Yeah.

00:09:06But, I mean, did the violence always happen to you or were you a victim or, I mean, I'm, you

00:09:14know, my commitment was always, you know, protect the face, protect the brain and try and talk your way out

00:09:19of things or avoid violent situations.

00:09:21And I grew up in a pretty rough neighborhood, a pretty sort of welfare poor neighborhood with some pretty sketchy

00:09:26people around.

00:09:28And I did manage to avoid violence, which I'm actually very sort of proud of.

00:09:33I know a lot of people are like, you never know who you really are until you're in a fight,

00:09:36you know, like this sort of fight club thing, which of course is, was written by a guy who's probably

00:09:41never seen a fist fight in his whole life.

00:09:44But, uh, in general, I, I personally have tried to avoid violence and I've been pretty successful at avoiding it

00:09:50when I was down in, um, Australia for some speeches, you know, the, the communists were sort of outside the

00:09:58venue and I went out and talked to them.

00:10:00Um, actually it was raining and I gave them an umbrella because, you know, I assume that there's just a

00:10:04misunderstanding for the most part, right?

00:10:05Some people are pretty evil, but a lot of people are just kind of confused, but I guess that's what

00:10:12I'm trying to understand.

00:10:15Sure.

00:10:16Yeah.

00:10:16I mean, I would say like now in my life, I like with violence is where it might come from.

00:10:22Right.

00:10:23I mean, I don't mean that you love violence, but you didn't avoid it successfully and maybe it was completely

00:10:29impossible.

00:10:30But probably not as often as you got involved, if that makes sense.

00:10:34Yeah.

00:10:34Can you hear me, by the way?

00:10:36Can you hear me, by the way?

00:10:38Hello?

00:10:40Stefan?

00:10:41Yeah, sorry.

00:10:41Go ahead.

00:10:42Can you hear me?

00:10:43Yes, I got you.

00:10:45Okay.

00:10:46Um, I would say like, honestly, at this point in my life, I am like the opposite where I actually

00:10:54stay away from it.

00:10:55And I think I've learned that from being kind of an idiot when I was younger and I ran into

00:11:01those situations.

00:11:03The first scenario when I was younger, I was more or less jumped by my friend.

00:11:10I didn't run into the violence at all.

00:11:13But I would say, honestly, like that situation maybe stemmed some of that, like wanting to run into violence because

00:11:23I was so angered by like not having control of the situation.

00:11:27Um, I'd say also maybe even getting kicked out of my dad's house even played a part in that too

00:11:33because I felt angered and not having control of the situation.

00:11:36So I'd say when I was like in my like early 20s and I did get into these dumb situations,

00:11:42I definitely didn't try to keep myself safe or, or keep myself away from violence.

00:11:50And I think a lot of it stemmed from this anger that I had hadn't controlled.

00:11:55And I think a lot of that anger stemmed from like a lot of those situations in my life.

00:12:00But, um, I'd say like now in my life, because of some of those like situations and kind of like

00:12:07almost like, um, realizations from, from some of those situations, I like now I'm like pretty, pretty opposite compared to

00:12:18that where I like don't, um, I try to stay away from violence as much as possible in the way

00:12:24of that.

00:12:25But like, you know, like, you know, if someone pisses me off, I like tried to more or less deal

00:12:29less deescalate my, my own mind or, um, you know, if, if someone's trying to stir shit, I try to

00:12:37like kind of stir it the opposite way and not dive into, um, creating friction.

00:12:44Um, but I think in my earlier, like adolescence, I like definitely, like jumped more into, um, creating friction.

00:12:56Okay, sorry, sorry, I gotta, so, so saying that you're not as much into violence now is fine, but that's

00:13:02not answering my question.

00:13:03Why do you think you're so comfortable with violence?

00:13:06I mean, how many fights did you get into?

00:13:09Um, not really many.

00:13:11I would say like one or two.

00:13:15Oh, okay, sorry.

00:13:16I thought it sounded like more.

00:13:18So, sorry if I got that, that wrong.

00:13:20Okay.

00:13:22All right.

00:13:22So, if it's only one or two, you said that like there's been a lot of trauma.

00:13:29And so, sorry, when you said that there's a lot of trauma, I thought maybe it was a whole bunch

00:13:32of fights.

00:13:33But, so, is the trauma from the one or two fights?

00:13:37Um, well, I would say like the kind of the fights that I did get into, like the one where

00:13:44I tore my radius in Ona.

00:13:46I was defending a girl at, um, I was at this club with a bunch of my friends and we

00:13:54were leaving and there was like a couple guys that were like yelling some fucked up shit at her.

00:13:58And in my kind of state, when I was this age, I was like just very like, I have to

00:14:07be like the Superman in this situation.

00:14:12And I, uh, was just an idiot.

00:14:15And so, I, um, started shit with them, like asking them why they were yelling at her and saying that

00:14:20stuff to her.

00:14:21And then my friends got involved and we essentially kind of wore them off.

00:14:26Like we all like kind of met a punch with them each and pushed them off and then they, they

00:14:33ran away.

00:14:34And then we were like walking back to our car and then there was like a, the block down the

00:14:40street, they basically came around the corner and, uh, they like kind of snuck up on us.

00:14:47And then I got hit in the face by one of the guys and I fell to the ground and

00:14:53my arm was on the ground and then he hit me.

00:14:55And then that's when my arm that was on the ground got dislocated.

00:14:59Um, but I would say, um, like the, me like getting enacted into those fights and being so comfortable with

00:15:11that violence, maybe it had to do with, um, trauma from my adolescence.

00:15:18Like I was, I don't know if you heard me say earlier, but I was talking about, um, the kind

00:15:23of uncontrollability of those two situations.

00:15:26Like with my dad and a friend who jumped me, um, it created, I think this like anger in me.

00:15:34And I think I always kind of had this sense of anger in me as well, but I think that

00:15:37that kind of escalated it where I had this sense of like, I need to, I don't have control.

00:15:44And so anger kind of made me feel like I had control in this sense, or like violence made me

00:15:49feel like I had control in this sense.

00:15:52Okay.

00:15:52Yeah.

00:15:53Okay.

00:15:55So why did your father kick you out?

00:15:57You were 16, right?

00:15:58Yeah, I was 16.

00:16:00Um, I was, uh, just kind of being an idiot.

00:16:04Like I wasn't doing anything terrible.

00:16:06I was just like, not, uh, doing super well in school.

00:16:12And I was like at a friend's house of mine a lot during that time.

00:16:16And I was smoking weed and I wasn't making the best decisions, but I wasn't like, you know, being like

00:16:23a terrible kid by any means.

00:16:24I was just doing what most, I guess, 16 year old kids would get into at the time.

00:16:29Um, and, uh, he didn't like that and him and my step mom basically were like, get the fuck out

00:16:37of the house.

00:16:38And we got in this like huge debated argument and, um, I ended up moving out of the house and

00:16:45I didn't live there for well over a year.

00:16:49And, uh, that was, I would say the, the kind of catalyst to it, but there was like kind of

00:16:57in the argument when they were like, kind of like going over some things.

00:17:03I, um, kind of just like, I think admitted a lot of stuff that I felt personally about both of

00:17:10them that like, I just didn't feel comfortable with them as, um, living with them.

00:17:16They were like super judgmental and very, um, harsh on me and, um, and me kind of like bringing those

00:17:26things to light.

00:17:26They just didn't like that at all.

00:17:28And so it created this huge anger and argument, uh, against me.

00:17:33And then that's when they were like, get the fuck out of the house.

00:17:36Okay.

00:17:37So, I mean, an argument isn't a reason to kick a kid out of the house, right?

00:17:42Right.

00:17:43So, what's going on in the household where this is the approach?

00:17:49I don't know.

00:17:50Like, why would that mean it's incredibly dangerous to kick a young person out of the house, right?

00:17:55Right.

00:17:56I mean, where, where, where are you supposed to go?

00:17:57I mean, maybe you have friends or whatever, but I mean, do you end up homeless?

00:18:01Do you end up selling your body for food?

00:18:03Like, it's, it's almost like a death threat to kick a kid out of the house, if that makes sense.

00:18:09Right.

00:18:10So, like, what the actual fuck?

00:18:12Like, help me understand how your family goes from, we're having a strong disagreement to, like, you're dead to me,

00:18:20go die in the street.

00:18:22Yeah.

00:18:22You know, I don't, I, uh, I guess that would be a question for them, but.

00:18:26No, no, but you know them.

00:18:28I'm, they're not here, right?

00:18:28So, you've got to give me your theories.

00:18:30Right, right, right, right.

00:18:31I appreciate you trying to pull the, uh, or shucks, I don't know stuff, but, you know, I only, I

00:18:36can only talk to you.

00:18:37So, you know, this family infinitely better than I do.

00:18:40So, what the hell was going on?

00:18:43Um, I don't know.

00:18:44Um, they, um.

00:18:47Basically, like, right after I say, right after I say, you're the one who knows, you've got to give me

00:18:52an answer.

00:18:52What do you say?

00:18:53I don't know.

00:18:55Yeah, I mean, I truly don't.

00:18:57You've got to shake off the cobwebs, right?

00:18:58We've got to, we've got to dig in, man.

00:19:00Lock in, my daughter would say.

00:19:02Uh, so, yeah, you've got to, you've got to shake off this sort of fog and this, these cobwebs.

00:19:07Like, what the hell was going on in your household?

00:19:10You have a disagreement with your parents, your mother, your, your, your stepmother, and your father.

00:19:15And they kick you out of the house for a year.

00:19:19Yeah.

00:19:20And, well, you know, the only reason that I even went back to go live with them is, um, I

00:19:27didn't even want to go back after a year.

00:19:29I wanted to, because I was living with my mom at the time, and I was kind of living in

00:19:33between friends' houses.

00:19:35And, um, I'm so sorry, can you just repeat that for a second?

00:19:39I just lost you for a second.

00:19:40Yeah, so, um, after the year went by, I actually didn't even really want to move back in with them

00:19:46at all.

00:19:47But, um, I was living with my mom and in between friends' houses at the time.

00:19:52And, um, I didn't even want to move back in with them.

00:19:55But, um, he kind of begged me to come back and live with them.

00:20:01Um, because he had just felt all this remorse and, uh, just felt like, you know, he needed to recuperate

00:20:09the situation.

00:20:10And I just didn't want to at all because I just knew that I would be going back into the

00:20:15same situation.

00:20:16And I was right, because when I ended up moving back with them, it was, like, the same shit, where

00:20:21it was, like, basically my dad worked 24-7.

00:20:26He was never really home.

00:20:27And same with my stepmom.

00:20:28So I was always at the house alone.

00:20:30And then when they would come home, there was no dialogue or conversations or friendship.

00:20:39It was just, like, you know, we're home from work, we're going to bed, we wake up for work the

00:20:45next morning.

00:20:46And then even if we were to talk, there was just so much, like, judgment of me and misunderstanding of

00:20:53me.

00:20:54And there was just no, like, I just didn't feel like there was any love or kind of, uh, familiarity

00:21:01in the house at all.

00:21:02And so I guess that goes back to, to kind of help answer your first question is, before they did

00:21:10kick me out, that existed even more so, where there was, like, no familiarity.

00:21:16There was no, um, we didn't really have a relationship at all.

00:21:22Um, and so, uh, leading up to that, um, I, uh, we just, we just didn't have a good relationship

00:21:31at all.

00:21:31And when we did have that argument, um, the argument was kind of first pertaining to kind of how I

00:21:42was acting in my life.

00:21:45And then it turned into me expressing how I felt about them.

00:21:49And then once I expressed that, that's when they kicked me out.

00:21:53Um, so the reason for why they did, I mean, I guess that they were really angered by me calling

00:22:03them out on their shit because I think deep down that he and her knew, uh, like what our relationship

00:22:11was.

00:22:12But they're just not willing to get down into the nitty gritty and, and, you know, like, be like, okay,

00:22:19let's deal with this or, or you're right.

00:22:21It's just, you know, and, and it's, I think my dad still is this way to this day, even though

00:22:26we have a better relationship.

00:22:27He's just the type of person where if you tell him the truth or something, that's like how you feel

00:22:33about something, it just met with anger.

00:22:36And I think that's even connected to talking about anger and violence is like where my anger kind of was

00:22:44learned or comes from is like his, is, is like comes from him in that way.

00:22:50I would say, I would say, okay, so then I'm a little confused if you can clear this up for

00:22:55me because you said that your childhood was pretty good.

00:23:00Are you saying that your father did not have a bad temper when he was younger, but became sort of

00:23:04viciously angry as he aged or something like that?

00:23:07Well, I just say it was good in the sense that like in the traditional sense, like I didn't, you

00:23:12know, grow up in like a, um, like a shitty area.

00:23:17I went to good schools.

00:23:19I had like, you know, a good foundation.

00:23:22I didn't grow up with like a terrible childhood, but I would say in terms of like family life and

00:23:28stuff like that, it was, wasn't good.

00:23:31But I just, I guess I just meant more in terms of your family life in terms of your family

00:23:36life wasn't good.

00:23:38That my family life wasn't good.

00:23:40Yeah.

00:23:41Like, you know, I life, isn't it?

00:23:42It's not like you've got a bunch of other influences for the most part.

00:23:45No, it's true.

00:23:46I guess, um, I guess it's just more or less to like give, uh, it's, it's, it's just sometimes feels

00:23:55like when you talk about, um, the shit in your childhood or the shit in your life that it's like

00:24:03good to give gratitude to the things that were, uh, that were good and that did exist.

00:24:09Which is like, I think that like, I didn't have an absolutely terrible childhood, but there were definitely some bad

00:24:18parts in terms of like my family.

00:24:20But, uh, just in terms of the quality of life, you know, I didn't have a terrible, terrible childhood.

00:24:26Okay.

00:24:27Got it.

00:24:28Got it.

00:24:28All right.

00:24:28And how can I best help you in the present?

00:24:31Um, I guess, like, I think I've let go of a lot of the trauma and like have worked on

00:24:39a lot of the things from those scenarios in my life.

00:24:43Like I think for a while I, I held on to a lot of anger and resentment and I just

00:24:51felt like a lot of inner stuff that I've definitely worked through a lot of it.

00:24:58But I guess it's like now in my life, I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm almost 30 and, you know,

00:25:04pretty soon I want to have, I want to marry a woman eventually and have children eventually.

00:25:11And when I do get to that point, I don't want to, you know, bring that trauma into that life,

00:25:18but also just even in my own life too.

00:25:20It's like, how do I, how do I resolve these traumas, um, in the best way?

00:25:29Okay.

00:25:30How has your daily life been over the last 10, 15 years?

00:25:35Um, I'd say it's been pretty good.

00:25:39It's had its ups and downs.

00:25:40I would say like in my earlier twenties when I was living in LA, like I definitely went through a

00:25:46lot of shit as everyone in their early twenties does.

00:25:49Um, I, um, I worked in the fashion industry for probably five years, six years when I lived out in

00:25:58LA and, um, I, uh, I had some like weird scenarios with, with roommates where like the, the first roommate

00:26:06I've moved in without there, he fucked me pretty hard financially.

00:26:11Um, where he owed me a lot of money for past due rents and bills and stuff like that.

00:26:18And I just kept on kind of like, um, being like, okay, you know, you'll pay me back and he'd

00:26:23pay back a portion of it.

00:26:24And then he'd pay back a little bit more.

00:26:26And then eventually it just stacked up and I had to kick him out of the house and, um, and

00:26:32I had some weird scenarios with that.

00:26:34And then, um, I would say in my, um, I had like a couple scenarios like that too, living in

00:26:41LA where I just had some like weird roommate scenarios and definitely just weren't the best situations.

00:26:49And, uh, and, uh, and I had like a couple weird work situations too.

00:26:54Like when I was working in the fashion industry, I, um, I had a, uh, um, a really like gnarly

00:27:03intense boss that was like, you know, would like yell at me on the daily.

00:27:08And, uh, but, uh, in my current life and like the past few years, it's definitely been a lot better.

00:27:15Um, I'd say like living in LA, there was just like a lot of craziness all over the board, whether

00:27:20it be like my jobs or like the fight situations or like the like possible stat, like almost getting stabbed.

00:27:27And like all of that, like living in LA was definitely like a net kind of negative.

00:27:33Like I had a bunch of amazing experiences in LA, learned a ton, had a lot of career opportunities and

00:27:39had a bunch of great friends, but there was just a lot of like shit that happened when I lived

00:27:44in LA.

00:27:44But in my past few years now living down here in Orange County, it's definitely like gotten better.

00:27:50Um, but, um, the job I'm working at right now, I work for a skincare brand doing sales and, uh,

00:27:58it's, it's, you know, it's been really nice.

00:28:01Like for the first, like probably year, year and a half, I, um, I had a really great experience there

00:28:10and, you know, I liked my boss.

00:28:12I liked my colleagues and, um, but there was like one coworker that I worked with that just hated me.

00:28:20And like every single day she'd come into work and it was just like, wouldn't even talk to me and

00:28:26was like just a very toxic work relationship.

00:28:30And so I kind of put that on the back burner for a while where I just was like, I'm

00:28:34not even going to put any energy into this and I'm just going to like be my best self.

00:28:38And then fast forward now we actually have a good work relationship together and, um, but it just seems like

00:28:47there's always like some like new situation that arises in my life where it's like, I've resolved the relationship that

00:28:56I have with her.

00:28:56But then it's like, it goes to the next person where it's like, maybe someone that I like got along

00:29:03with before it's like, now it's like I have some, um, weird work relationship with them or like, and I

00:29:11just feel like my life just feels like it's like one, uh, like weird relationship to the next.

00:29:19And it's like, uh, it seems like when I resolve one, it's like another door opens for another work relationship

00:29:27to kind of, uh, become where now I, um, I had the boss that I originally had at this job.

00:29:37We had a really good relationship for the first like year, year and a half.

00:29:42And then towards the end, it just started to get really weird where she, um, was, she had been working

00:29:51for the company for 10 years.

00:29:52So she was like at her end and she was just like, not really doing much.

00:29:57She was like, not really managing our team very much.

00:30:00So, and so our whole team kind of like went against her and, and it just got really toxic at

00:30:06work where like we'd come in and she would just like not talk to us all day.

00:30:11And she would just like fuck off all day and like go and walk around.

00:30:15And, and so we ended up like having all a meeting with our regional branch manager and they basically like

00:30:21oust her out.

00:30:22And when she left, it felt like this like big, like, like kind of change where everything was like changing

00:30:29for the good.

00:30:30And like, I had a really good work relationship with everyone.

00:30:33And that was actually what, uh, resolved the relationship I had with that girl originally is like,

00:30:39I felt like our manager was kind of gatekeeping us from having a good relationship because I brought up all

00:30:46these things to her about my relationship with the one coworker.

00:30:50And she just like never did anything about it or help resolve it and just kind of let it be.

00:30:54So then once she left, we were actually able to like resolve it just between both of ourselves, because, and

00:31:01I think it was really through kind of trauma bonding of like the work situation with our manager.

00:31:06We like would kind of start talking about the situation and both of the situations that we both had with

00:31:13her.

00:31:14And then from there we kind of slowly but surely became friends.

00:31:17And now it's to the point where it's like...

00:31:18Okay, you don't remember the question anymore, do you?

00:31:20Sorry to be annoying.

00:31:22No, you're fine.

00:31:23Well, do you remember my question?

00:31:25Uh, it was, how is your, your life in the last five years?

00:31:29Dating life.

00:31:31Oh, I didn't, I didn't hear that.

00:31:33I thought you just said life.

00:31:34No, that's fine.

00:31:35I mean, so, but your life, so the minutiae of conflicts with coworkers is probably not where the most progress

00:31:43is to be made, which is fine.

00:31:45Um, so, and I'm sorry if I was unclear.

00:31:48So...

00:31:48No, you're fine.

00:31:49So dating life.

00:31:51Yeah, dating life.

00:31:53Um, so, the last five years, um, last year I was in probably the longest relationship I've been in my

00:32:04life.

00:32:04Um, I was with a girl for a year.

00:32:08Um, and it was the best relationship I ever had.

00:32:12Like, we were completely in love.

00:32:15And, um, we, uh, worked really close to each other.

00:32:18That's how we met.

00:32:19She worked, like, a few stores down from me.

00:32:21And, um, she basically, um, would come into my store.

00:32:28I'd come into hers.

00:32:28Um, and we kind of slowly became friends.

00:32:31And then, um, she, uh, we started dating.

00:32:37It was like, it seemed like this.

00:32:38We just kind of started getting into the relationship.

00:32:40Like, there wasn't really much of a, a bridge, uh, that I guess would naturally happen with the relationship where

00:32:47you, like, start dating.

00:32:49And then it's like, the, the question gets popped.

00:32:52It was like, we just kind of instantly jumped into a relationship.

00:32:55And we were just, like, madly in love with each other.

00:32:58Um, and we had a really good relationship.

00:33:00We, um, we dated for a year.

00:33:03But where things went south was she, the kind of ticking time bomb of the whole relationship was, like, the

00:33:12whole time we were together, we knew that she was eventually going to move.

00:33:15Because, um, she was just working part-time at this job.

00:33:21And she, um, her, like, end goal was to get her master's, um, for, uh, um, biomed.

00:33:33So, basically, um, she kind of always had this, uh, inner part of herself that, like, knew that.

00:33:45We were eventually probably going to split.

00:33:47Or at least, if we didn't split, there would be, like, a long-term, or, uh, um, like, a long

00:33:53-distance relationship there would be formed because of it.

00:33:56And so, towards kind of the end, we, uh, her, she lived with her aunt and uncle.

00:34:04And her aunt and uncle, um, just didn't like me at all.

00:34:09And they, uh, were always kind of, like, in the back of her mind, like, trying to kind of get

00:34:18her to leave me.

00:34:20Um, and I think the big reason was, it was, like, partially because they didn't like me.

00:34:24But I think a big reason, too, is, like, they felt like I was, um, pulling her away from that

00:34:31goal, which was, like, getting her master's.

00:34:33Because she was just here for a short time, and, uh, eventually she would move, uh, to the school that

00:34:41she was going to in Arizona.

00:34:43Or at least the school that she was wishing to get into.

00:34:46Um, and she wasn't originally from here.

00:34:49She was originally from Washington.

00:34:51So, either way, it was, like, she would be moving back to Washington.

00:34:54Yeah, you don't have to go into all of the places and all of that.

00:34:57So, yeah, just, so she's, she's going to leave.

00:34:59Yeah, so she's going to leave.

00:35:02Um, and.

00:35:02And when did you find that out?

00:35:05Um, pretty early on in the relationship.

00:35:08Like, I knew that she would be moving because she was just here, um, for the time being.

00:35:14Uh, so, yeah.

00:35:16Okay, so, you knew at the, pretty early on that she was going to be leaving the region, right?

00:35:23Mm-hmm.

00:35:24And why didn't she, uh, love you enough to stay, do you think?

00:35:27Like, or you love her enough to leave with her?

00:35:31Um, I think for her, like, um, she had, like, so much attached to her career.

00:35:43And I think a big part of it was because of her family, where.

00:35:46No, no, sorry, sorry.

00:35:47I, I understand that.

00:35:49I understand that.

00:35:50I mean, of course, she was attached to her career.

00:35:51But, why, why didn't you follow her if she wants to go and do this?

00:35:56And what's the, how old is she?

00:35:59Uh, she was a little bit younger than me.

00:36:01So, I was 25 at the time when we started dating.

00:36:06And she was 23.

00:36:08Uh.

00:36:10And she wanted to have a career in the sciences.

00:36:12Is that right?

00:36:13Yes.

00:36:14So, did you want to, is having a family, like, having kids, is that more of a recent thing?

00:36:20Uh, I would say so.

00:36:21I mean, I've always wanted that, but I'd say, like, I've been more serious about it recently.

00:36:26And, and especially with her as well, too.

00:36:28Like, we seriously talked about that.

00:36:30You seriously talked about having kids.

00:36:32But if she's going to go do a master's and start a career in the sciences, how is she going

00:36:36to have kids?

00:36:37I mean, at least in terms of raising them.

00:36:39She'd, what, what, you'd put them in daycare or something?

00:36:43Um, yeah, I don't know.

00:36:45I guess we didn't think that far ahead.

00:36:47Okay.

00:36:47So, you went into this relationship.

00:36:49And sorry if I've misunderstood something.

00:36:51Please set me straight, of course.

00:36:52You went into this relationship knowing it was going to be temporary.

00:36:57No.

00:36:58Okay.

00:36:58So, you went into it thinking either she would stay or you would move or you would both stay.

00:37:03Is that right?

00:37:03I mean, as we went on through a relationship, like, we talked about the possibility of her either staying or

00:37:10me either moving with her.

00:37:12But as it got closer, um, because I guess, like, the main kind of conversation that I've, I'd have with

00:37:20her is, like, the main school she wanted to go to in Arizona.

00:37:23I had no purpose of being in Arizona.

00:37:27Um, there's, like, no work for me there.

00:37:29It's not a place that I'm really interested in living at all.

00:37:32And, and I told her, you know, like, if a push came to shove, like, I would probably still, like,

00:37:38move with you there if it came down to it.

00:37:41But the kind of conversation that I'd have with her is, like, pushing her towards finding a different school that

00:37:47she'd want to go to so then it would work for the both of us.

00:37:51So then we can move to a place that, um, would work for me and then somewhere that she can

00:37:56pivot, like, re-pivot.

00:37:58Okay, so, uh, what happened at the end?

00:38:01Why, why, why are you not together?

00:38:04So, yeah, so that's, I guess, why I was, like, going through all of the, like, um, tangents of our

00:38:09relationship.

00:38:09Because I kind of wanted to give you clarity on that is her, so her aunt and uncle, um, essentially

00:38:16played a big influence in her life where she, um, I think even more so with, like, her career that

00:38:27I think there was, like, part of her that had her heart in the career.

00:38:29But I think, like, her aunt and uncle more, like, drove the car metaphorically of, of her doing that as

00:38:36her career choice.

00:38:38And so, um, with that being said, her grandparents were the ones who funded her college.

00:38:45So that's why she moved out here from Washington as she was first finished, finished college out here.

00:38:50And so when we met, she had just graduated and she was just working a part-time job kind of

00:38:55in her, like, almost like a gap year, if you will.

00:38:57Um, and, um, so towards the kind of end of the relationship, her aunt and uncle, uh, had basically told

00:39:12her grandparents that I'm kind of stunting her from doing school and getting her master's, which wasn't true.

00:39:22But with that conversation that they had with her grandparents, they were like, okay, we're going to create some ultimatum

00:39:28for her.

00:39:29So they had a meeting with, with, her name was, they had a meeting with, and they told her.

00:39:34Okay, could you just give me a favor of names and places, please?

00:39:37This is a public call, right?

00:39:39Sure.

00:39:40Yeah, thank you.

00:39:42Just call her Sally.

00:39:44Okay.

00:39:44So, so, so basically, um, she had a meeting with her grandparents and her grandparents, um, gave her the ultimatum

00:39:56to tell her that, uh, if she doesn't break up with me, that they're not going to fund her college

00:40:02anymore.

00:40:03Um, so.

00:40:05And, I'm sorry, do you know what their, do you know what their objections were to you?

00:40:09Uh, her grandparents?

00:40:11Yeah.

00:40:13Well, her grandparents didn't have any objections to me in person.

00:40:15I actually met her grandparents.

00:40:17I went to go visit them in Washington with her.

00:40:18So it wasn't you personally.

00:40:19They just wanted to make, they just wanted to make sure she could go to do her schooling, her master's

00:40:24degree, and you were in the way, or at least they perceived.

00:40:27Yes.

00:40:27So it wasn't personal to you.

00:40:28Is that right?

00:40:29Exactly.

00:40:30And it was, it was more personal.

00:40:31Sorry to interrupt.

00:40:32I just, I just, you know, we've been talking for almost 50 minutes, right?

00:40:35I just, I need to get, I can't do all the minutiae because we got to get to actually helping

00:40:38him.

00:40:39So the grandparents said, you have to break up with your boyfriend or we're not going to fund your education.

00:40:46Yes.

00:40:47Okay.

00:40:48Got it.

00:40:48See, I just, I just need the, the, the, the, the shortened version, if you don't mind.

00:40:53Sorry to be annoying, but I just need the shortened version.

00:40:56Okay.

00:40:56And then she said, I would rather take my grandparents' money than be with you.

00:41:01Yeah, I would say that that would be like in layman's terms, but I think more or less it's like

00:41:08she was very much so influenced by the fact that they also like carried her life.

00:41:17Where, um, if she were to like say, hey, I'm just going to go with him, then it scared her

00:41:25a lot also in terms of the, her aunt and uncle and her grandparents are the ones who, you know,

00:41:30kept her fed and had that she lived with her aunt and uncle.

00:41:35And so.

00:41:36Oh, so she, she would lose more than just the money for school.

00:41:41She would also lose her room and board.

00:41:44Exactly.

00:41:45Okay.

00:41:46Okay.

00:41:46So they threatened her with being cut off financially if she continued to date you.

00:41:51Exactly.

00:41:52Okay.

00:41:52I'm sorry.

00:41:53That's just a horrible thing to do, by the way.

00:41:55It's a horrible thing to do.

00:41:57Okay.

00:41:57Yeah.

00:41:58They weren't the best people.

00:41:58How long?

00:41:59And you guys were together for a year.

00:42:00And when did that end?

00:42:02This ended last spring.

00:42:05Okay.

00:42:05Sorry.

00:42:06I thought you were 30 and, and I thought you got to gather at 24.

00:42:09Sorry what I'm missing the math here.

00:42:12No, I was saying I'm almost 30.

00:42:13So I'm 28 now.

00:42:15Okay.

00:42:16But if you were together for a year and you got together at 24 and it ended last year, 25,

00:42:2126, 27.

00:42:22Okay.

00:42:23So, okay.

00:42:23Got it.

00:42:24All right.

00:42:25And so is that, that's your major relationship, right?

00:42:27And what's your body count as a whole?

00:42:31Like in terms of relationships?

00:42:32No, sexual partners.

00:42:35Um, I don't know.

00:42:36No, I've never counted it, but I would say probably 10 or less.

00:42:42Okay.

00:42:42And in terms of longer term relationships, how many?

00:42:46Um, probably like three.

00:42:51Okay.

00:42:51And what is your relationship like with your, I haven't heard much about your mother.

00:42:56You've got a stepmother and your father.

00:42:59Yeah.

00:43:00So me and my mom have a good relationship and that was like who I went and lived with who

00:43:04after I, um, was kicked out of my dad's house.

00:43:09So she's like kind of the only one in my family that I have like a relationship with, I would

00:43:13say.

00:43:14Okay.

00:43:15Got it.

00:43:16And so you don't talk to your dad or text with him.

00:43:18Is that right?

00:43:20Uh, we talk briefly.

00:43:21We don't talk very often, but when we do talk, like I had a phone call with him recently,

00:43:25like probably, uh, a couple months ago.

00:43:30Um, but we don't talk very often now.

00:43:32Okay.

00:43:33Got it.

00:43:33I'm sorry about that.

00:43:34That's, that's quite sad.

00:43:36And your stepmom, obviously not close to her, right?

00:43:40No, we don't talk at all.

00:43:42Okay.

00:43:43And how old were you, sorry, when your parents got divorced?

00:43:47Uh, I was probably like eight, seven.

00:43:50And why did they get divorced that you know of?

00:43:53Um, they just fell out of love.

00:43:57So essentially I used to live in the Bay Area and we moved to Southern California and we moved

00:44:04because of my health.

00:44:05I, when I was born in the Bay Area, I was born into a house with a bunch of mold.

00:44:11And, uh, so I had like quite bad asthma and I was hospitalized because of it, because of

00:44:18the mold and my asthma.

00:44:19Uh, and so in the town that I lived in, in the Bay Area, it was like super dry and

00:44:24my allergens

00:44:25were, uh, like more extremified.

00:44:30And so we, uh, moved from Northern California to Southern California because of my health.

00:44:37Um, but I think also like a portion of it too had to do with the relationship, but they

00:44:42don't really talk about that part of it.

00:44:44Um, or at least they don't admit it.

00:44:47Um, and then when we moved to Southern California, uh, pretty shortly after we moved here, they

00:44:55got divorced and it was just because they were just not in love with each other anymore and

00:45:01they couldn't.

00:45:02No, but that's not an answer, right?

00:45:04I mean, what did they, my formulation of love is it's our emotional response to virtue, if

00:45:11we're virtuous.

00:45:12So in general, falling out of love means one person is acting badly, if that makes sense.

00:45:18Sure.

00:45:19I would say, I would say the relationship to kind of explain the end of it was my dad was

00:45:28working a lot and my mom wasn't working and she was like a stay at home mom.

00:45:32And I think that my mom just was, she stopped sleeping in bed with him and she slept in a

00:45:41different room.

00:45:42And I think she just kind of consciously made a decision that she wanted to be single.

00:45:48And so I think it was more or less my mom is my mom's fault for sure.

00:45:53Okay.

00:45:54All right.

00:45:55Uh, okay.

00:45:56So what is it that you most want to fix?

00:45:59Is it love work, something else?

00:46:01I would say like, in terms of like what I was talking about with work and like relationships,

00:46:07just like tying that to everything.

00:46:09Like, I just want to have better relationships with people, whether it be like, you know,

00:46:14my future girlfriend or work partners.

00:46:17Um, I think that's kind of a whole.

00:46:20You sound, you sound, you sound down to me.

00:46:23You sound kind of depressed.

00:46:25Yeah.

00:46:26I mean, the ways that I'm saying that is you have a kind of weightedness to your voice and

00:46:30it's just kind of negative.

00:46:32There's no particular pair for animation.

00:46:34Like when you said you were in sales, I was sort of surprised because salespeople are normally

00:46:37kind of peppy.

00:46:38You know what I mean?

00:46:39Like you're kind of up and so on.

00:46:41Um, and so there's a, there's a weight or a heaviness to your way of communicating.

00:46:47And again, I know this is a bit of an unusual kind of venue for talking, but does that kind

00:46:51of, do you feel kind of down or depressed or is that just maybe a vocal habit that I'm

00:46:57misreading?

00:46:57I would say I'm kind of sick right now.

00:47:00So that kind of plays into a role of it.

00:47:03Um, but I would say also to just like the stuff that we're talking about, it just kind

00:47:06of puts me in that kind of negative headspace.

00:47:09But in general, in, in my workspace and in sales, I'm very much so the opposite.

00:47:15Um, I, uh, I wouldn't say I'm happy cause I think that's kind of like a fake sales type

00:47:23of person's energy.

00:47:24But I would say I have more of like a energetic, uh, response to, to my work environment.

00:47:32Okay.

00:47:32So give me a little bit of your sales voice just so I can understand the difference.

00:47:35Uh, uh, if you were selling me something or a pitch that you'd be making.

00:47:39I mean, how would you say it?

00:47:40Yeah.

00:47:41So, um, so I worked for a brand called ESOP where, uh, an Australian skincare brand started

00:47:46in 1987.

00:47:48Uh, we originally were a hair salon, uh, but our founder, um, who was a hairdresser, he

00:47:54wanted to create a hair product that was utilized with essential oils, more used for their efficacious

00:48:01reasons than their, uh, natural benefits.

00:48:04So we like to call it like, uh, uh, incidental fragrance where the, the natural sense of it

00:48:11is more or less kind of a secondary thing and the ingredients are more used for their efficacious

00:48:17purposes.

00:48:17So whether they're like soothing, calming, hydrating, um, that's kind of the story of our brand.

00:48:24Um, but if someone were to come in the store, I would usually greet them and say, how are

00:48:29they doing?

00:48:30Um, have kind of a.

00:48:32Oh, so you work, you work in, sorry, you work in the store, sorry to interrupt.

00:48:35You work in the store.

00:48:36Is that right?

00:48:36Yeah.

00:48:37Like in a, in a mall or?

00:48:40Uh, it's in a shop, like an outdoor shopping center.

00:48:43So you work retail?

00:48:45Uh, yes.

00:48:46Okay.

00:48:47Got it.

00:48:48Uh, okay.

00:48:49I think I, I think I understand.

00:48:52And I'm still, you know, we're, we're rounding an hour and I'm still trying to understand how

00:48:58I can best help you.

00:48:59So saying I want to improve my relationships is kind of vague.

00:49:03Sure.

00:49:03And so, uh, how would you say, I mean, if you're working retail and you're pushing 30,

00:49:08how would you say your career is going?

00:49:10Um, I would say it's not in my favor, but I've been making a lot of changes in my life

00:49:17to have the future that I do want.

00:49:20So I'm actually right after I get off this call with you, I'm taking a test, um, that

00:49:25will help me get into an art school that I want to get into.

00:49:29Uh, I took actually my first one on Monday and I passed all three of them.

00:49:34Um, and then I'm taking another one today.

00:49:36So if I passed the two today, then I'll be able to get into these art schools.

00:49:42Um, and then, uh, design and graphic design.

00:49:47I mean, isn't AI just kind of eating that right up?

00:49:50Uh, partially, but it's, I would say more in a sector that it's not utilized in.

00:49:56Uh, and then like, um, but yeah, I would say AI is definitely taking a part of that for sure.

00:50:05And how long is art school?

00:50:08Um, the school that I'm looking into, it's a two year, but I plan on going for four years.

00:50:12So probably go to like one for two and then probably jump to another one for another two.

00:50:18Oh yeah.

00:50:18So you can't get married, right?

00:50:20Uh, not at this point, no.

00:50:22I mean, it won't be for years, right?

00:50:24Because you'll be in school for four years, which means your income is down and your expenses are up.

00:50:30And then after you graduate at the age of 31 or 32 or 33, maybe, then you're going to have

00:50:38to start establishing your career.

00:50:39And so you're not going to really start earning much money for like eight to 10 years, right?

00:50:47Right.

00:50:49So, I mean, if you want a woman your age, she's not going to want to date you, right?

00:50:53If she wants kids.

00:50:55Uh, sure.

00:50:57Sorry, you sound like you don't believe me.

00:50:58That's totally fine.

00:50:59Uh, what do you think?

00:51:01Um, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think that there's like truth to that.

00:51:05Sorry.

00:51:06I, I, I, I, I mean, if you, if your life plan is to not make much money for eight

00:51:10plus years and you're already 20, you're already, you know, close, you're, you're close to 30, then you'll be close

00:51:17to 40 before you start making any real money.

00:51:19Right?

00:51:20Sure.

00:51:21Sorry.

00:51:22I keep, you keep saying sure.

00:51:23Like I'm not right about that.

00:51:24If I'm wrong, just let me know.

00:51:26No, no, no.

00:51:27I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I agree with you.

00:51:30Okay.

00:51:30So you have to ask yourself, right?

00:51:34What a woman that you want wants.

00:51:37So you want a woman who wants to have kids.

00:51:40And I think if I understand it correctly, you want a woman who wants to have kids and stay home

00:51:44with them, right?

00:51:46Yeah.

00:51:47Cause I mean, either you're paying for someone to stay home with the kids or you're paying for a bunch

00:51:50of daycare and extra expenses and it doesn't really end up making any money.

00:51:54Sure.

00:51:54So if you go back to school and then you hope that in four years, AI hasn't completely eaten up

00:52:03your industry because AI is moving ahead crazy fast.

00:52:07So if you're looking at not really making any money for close to a decade, then you're going to end

00:52:14up having to date someone much younger or not have a family.

00:52:17Cause if you're only making real money in your late thirties or even mid to late thirties, then if you

00:52:23start dating a woman who's in her mid to late thirties, you're not going to have any time to have

00:52:26kids really.

00:52:27Right.

00:52:29Sorry.

00:52:30I'm not sure how you're responding to this because this seems like quite important information and you're responding to it.

00:52:35Like I just told you something unimportant.

00:52:37And if it is unimportant, then, you know, let me know and we can talk about something else.

00:52:41No, I don't think that it's unimportant.

00:52:43And I just think that it's, uh, it's obviously, you know, dark information.

00:52:48It's not something that's very bright.

00:52:49So I'm not going to have like a happy response to it.

00:52:52Right.

00:52:53No, no, I get that.

00:52:54I'm just not sure what the response is because I'm not getting any emotion.

00:52:57I was just saying, I, did you hear, I said, yeah, it's very neutral.

00:53:02Right.

00:53:03As opposed to, Oh my God, this is terrible news or something like that.

00:53:06Right.

00:53:07Right.

00:53:07Well, I'm just trying to listen to you as you're, as you're speaking without interrupting you.

00:53:11Okay.

00:53:12I wasn't asking you to interrupt me.

00:53:14Just, I don't, I sort of have to navigate my conversation by how it's affecting you.

00:53:19And if I'm getting very neutral, then I don't know if the information is useful or not useful because it's

00:53:26very guarded.

00:53:27Right.

00:53:28Like if I said, Hey man, you just won the lottery.

00:53:30You just won $10 million.

00:53:32You wouldn't say, right.

00:53:34You know, if I said your best friend just died, you wouldn't say, so again, because we're not in the

00:53:40same room, I can't see you, which is just the way that these conversations generally tend to work.

00:53:44Look, I'm just trying to navigate as to whether the information is useful or helpful at all.

00:53:50And I mean, it's dark, I suppose, but you haven't committed to art school.

00:53:55And so if you change your mind about that, that's way better than the alternative, right?

00:54:00Like if you're about to go scuba diving and I said, there are sharks in the water, like dangerous man

00:54:05-eating sharks.

00:54:06I mean, it would be better not to go in the water.

00:54:09You know, you might be a little disappointed about not being able to go scuba diving, but you'd probably be

00:54:12a little bit happier about not being eaten.

00:54:14So, okay.

00:54:16So if you are willing to postpone marriage for a long time, then art school is fine.

00:54:23Do you know roughly how much it's going to cost you in terms of the cost of books, the cost

00:54:32of the courses themselves, and how much income you're going to have to give up to go to school for

00:54:41four years?

00:54:42Yeah.

00:54:43It's not that expensive of a school, luckily.

00:54:46I was originally, so when I was living in Los Angeles, there was another design school that I was looking

00:54:50at going to.

00:54:51But it was just too expensive, so I ended up foregoing it.

00:54:57It was like something crazy, like, you know, $50,000 a year, which I obviously can't afford.

00:55:05So I started traveling to Europe the past few years, so I've spent a lot of time in Germany and

00:55:12Croatia.

00:55:14And in my travels, I found some pretty cool art schools out there.

00:55:18And there's particularly this one in Amsterdam that I've been looking at, not only because of the design courses that

00:55:25it offers, but also because the services that it provides for, like, American students.

00:55:32And it's just a lot easier to be able to get into as a non-European student.

00:55:37And also, there's, like, programs where there's English-speaking students there and English-speaking teachers.

00:55:44But also, the school is quite affordable.

00:55:48It's, like, €2,300 per, like, trimester or semester or whatnot.

00:55:56So it's something that I can definitely, comparatively to the other art school, I can probably afford.

00:56:04But you can't work in Amsterdam, can you?

00:56:08Yeah.

00:56:08So the company, actually, I work for, they have some companies that are based out there.

00:56:13And so I could probably be able to get a job out there at one of the storefronts there.

00:56:20No, but, sorry, legally, wouldn't you be able to work?

00:56:23It looked like you'd have a tax ID and all of that sort of stuff?

00:56:25Yeah.

00:56:26So they would give me, like, a worker visa.

00:56:29Oh, cool.

00:56:29So you can, because a lot of times, obviously, I'm not any kind of expert in this, but a lot

00:56:33of times, if you go for school, you're not usually allowed to work sometimes.

00:56:37I mean, in some places.

00:56:38So you would go out, you would give up your current living situation, you would go out to Amsterdam, and

00:56:46you would get a job in Amsterdam.

00:56:49And you would go to school in Amsterdam for a couple of years, right?

00:56:53Yeah.

00:56:54Okay.

00:56:55Got it.

00:56:56All right.

00:56:57That's kind of cool.

00:56:58That's kind of cool.

00:56:59And would you make more or less money or about the same as you're making now?

00:57:04You know, I don't know, because the currency is much different over there, but I probably would just be making

00:57:11less in general, because I'd probably be working less hours putting into consideration the amount of time that I'd have

00:57:18to be putting in my work.

00:57:18So probably less money, but it's a good question, because I don't know the, like, currency rate and the pay

00:57:25standards over there compared to over here.

00:57:28Yeah, and of course, some stuff might be cheaper in terms of healthcare and so on.

00:57:33Okay, so would you go down from, like, 40 hours a week to 20 hours a week?

00:57:36Would you cut your pay in half, or what would go on while you were in school?

00:57:40Yeah, probably something like that, probably, like, in half, because I'm working about 40 hours a week right now.

00:57:45So I'd probably go to probably about 20, just compared to the amount of time that I'd have to be

00:57:50putting into school.

00:57:51Right, so if you're going, and you don't have to tell me your salary, of course, I'm just making up

00:57:55some numbers here.

00:57:56So if you're going from 40K a year to 20K a year over four years, that's 80K in opportunity cost,

00:58:04right?

00:58:04Because if you're working full-time, you'd have $80,000 more, because you're losing $20,000 a year for four

00:58:10years.

00:58:10So you're down $80,000, you know, plus maybe the living expenses or more, but then, of course, you also

00:58:17have the cost of the school itself.

00:58:19So probably it's costing you $100,000, give or take, to do the school.

00:58:27Okay, just double-checking on that.

00:58:30And so then when you graduate, you have to, of course, the only way that makes sense is, of course,

00:58:37if you can go, let's say, from $40,000 to $60,000 after you graduate, then you make that $100

00:58:43,000 back in five years.

00:58:46I mean, more, obviously, because of taxes and so on, but, you know, just looking at the rough numbers.

00:58:51So how much more, like, what percentage more of your current salary do you think you'll make as a graphics

00:58:55designer?

00:58:56Well, it would probably be less amount, it wouldn't probably be around $100,000, because I think you misvote or

00:59:06mistaken the price per year.

00:59:09It was $2,300,000, not $23,000.

00:59:12No, no, no, I'm talking about the opportunity cost.

00:59:14So if you go from full-time to part-time, that's why I said, if you're making $40,000 now

00:59:18at 40 hours a week, and then you go to 20 hours a week, then you're losing $20,000 a

00:59:23year.

00:59:24Yeah, because you're working part-time rather than full-time, and then times four years of working part-time, that's

00:59:31four times $20,000, that's $80,000.

00:59:35And then I would put in another $10,000 to $20,000 over the four years as a bare minimum

00:59:40for your education, probably more, but let's be conservative.

00:59:43That's where I got the $100,000 from, not just the cost of the school.

00:59:45Okay, gotcha.

00:59:47Sorry, what was the question again?

00:59:49Well, I mean, so what percentage additional income will you be making after you complete this education as opposed to

01:00:00what you're making now?

01:00:01So if you went from $40,000 to $60,000, you'd be making 50% more.

01:00:06Right.

01:00:07Well, the goal is after college that I hopefully have, because the goal isn't to work for some company or

01:00:16brand.

01:00:18I want to take more of an entrepreneurial route.

01:00:21So hopefully by the time I graduate, I have already some sort of business set up.

01:00:26I don't plan on going to college like a lot of students do and get out and then looking for

01:00:31work.

01:00:31Like I already plan on working in some sort of regard from the practice that I'm learning while I'm…

01:00:38Oh, so you start your own company after you leave school?

01:00:40Not even leave school, but while I'm in school is my plan.

01:00:43While you're in school.

01:00:44Okay.

01:00:44So the challenge then, of course, is that usually you need some money to start a business.

01:00:50I mean, I started a business with about $80,000 back in the day.

01:00:54I'm not saying you'd need that because I guess you can work from home and so on.

01:00:57But, you know, you've known enough in the business world, you've done sales, like you need sales, you need marketing,

01:01:01you need customers, you need contacts, you need a website, you need, you know, maybe some office space.

01:01:06Who knows, right?

01:01:07But it also means that you're putting yourself in a low-income situation for a while.

01:01:12I mean, one of the reasons why people go and get a job with someone else after they graduate is

01:01:17they can immediately start making money.

01:01:18Whereas if you're doing the entrepreneurial route, usually you're losing money for the first little while, and then hopefully, of

01:01:25course, you make more money later, but it's a real gamble, right?

01:01:28Right.

01:01:29And also in your, let's see, yeah, so in your sort of early to mid-30s, you are competing with,

01:01:38you know, people who are 20, 22 on the latest technology and so on.

01:01:43And I'm just, it doesn't mean it's impossible, it just means that, I mean, you have some additional wisdom and

01:01:47experience, which is good, but you will be competing.

01:01:51And, of course, because it's digital, you're competing not just with people in the neighborhood, you're competing with the entire

01:01:56planet, right?

01:01:57I mean, if you're a plumber, you're not competing with a plumber from India, but if you're doing anything digitally

01:02:02and you're competing with the entire, you're competing with the entire world.

01:02:05And, again, that doesn't mean it's impossible, but it's a challenge.

01:02:09And I think, and that's totally fine, I'm not trying to say what you should or shouldn't do, I don't

01:02:13know.

01:02:13I'm just trying to give you the cost benefits.

01:02:15I've been an entrepreneur for like 30 years, so I think I know a little bit about this.

01:02:19It doesn't mean I'm right, I'm just telling you things to be aware of, which is, it's going to delay

01:02:27even more education, right?

01:02:30Sorry, marriage, because you're getting educated, and then I assume that the business contacts that you would mostly set up

01:02:38would be somewhat local to Holland or something like that.

01:02:42I went out to Amsterdam years ago for a speech at the next web conference.

01:02:46It's actually quite a lovely town.

01:02:47Yeah, so either your contacts would be local, in which case you're kind of stuck in Amsterdam, and then you've

01:02:53got to figure out how to live there and, you know, get some sort of, I guess, the equivalent of

01:02:58the green card or whatever happens over there, which is a challenge.

01:03:02Or you come back to the States, in which case your experience and your contacts are in Europe, and then

01:03:07that's sort of less valuable.

01:03:08Again, you can work digitally, and I get all of that, but you would probably be delaying, almost certainly you

01:03:14would be delaying marriage prospects for quite some time.

01:03:18Sure, sure.

01:03:21Again, I'm not trying to tell you what to do.

01:03:22Obviously, I couldn't, but it's important to know the cost benefits, because if you're saying, I want a quality relationship,

01:03:29and you're pushing 30, and you're looking at deferring income for many years,

01:03:36then that's going to delay you getting the kind of relationship where you have a wife and kids, because a

01:03:43wife and kids take money.

01:03:45And if you're not making any money, then you can't have the wife and kids.

01:03:48Unless, you know, maybe your wife is independently wealthy and so on, but that's very much a lottery win, if

01:03:54that makes sense.

01:03:55Right. Totally.

01:03:57Okay. All right. So, you're going to have to adjust your expectations on dating if you're going to be a

01:04:03half-decade-plus with low-to-negative income, and maybe just low-income, again, if you're working part-time, if

01:04:11that all works out.

01:04:12I mean, if you're working in Holland, wouldn't you have to speak Dutch or something?

01:04:18So, that's the thing that's really nice about that, and that's what really attracted me to this school, is that

01:04:24they have a program for non-European students, specifically American students.

01:04:30So, there's English-speaking students and English-speaking teachers at this school, and also Amsterdam in general, it's actually mainly

01:04:42English-spoken.

01:04:43Everyone speaks English there. And I would also just learn Dutch in general. Like, I wouldn't just go there and

01:04:49be, like, you know, a transplant and just only speak English. Like, I would still learn Dutch, but it's not

01:04:55a necessity.

01:04:57Well, I mean, I obviously can't speak for people who work in Holland, but I would assume that they also

01:05:04speak Dutch.

01:05:06Can you hear me? I think you cut out.

01:05:10Okay, do you want to learn some?

01:05:14Your audio cut out, Stefan.

01:05:17Are we still on?

01:05:18Yeah, I can hear you now.

01:05:22I think you cut out again.

01:05:27Oh, sorry about that. I think we're back.

01:05:29All good. I can hear you now.

01:05:31There we go. You're back. Sorry.

01:05:32Yeah, so that's sort of my question about sort of, it's better, I think it's easier for them to just

01:05:37hire people who already speak the language.

01:05:40And again, maybe there's some program there. It's just, I don't have the answers to these things, of course, right?

01:05:44But it's just something to be aware of.

01:05:46Well, I don't plan on creating my business out there.

01:05:52I just more or less, the plan is to go to school out there and then bring the expertise back

01:05:58here.

01:05:58Or, you know, really wherever I plan to go after, I don't have a plan after that where I'm going

01:06:05to move.

01:06:06But I've spent quite a lot of time in Berlin.

01:06:09Berlin and Berlin's also similar in that same way where it's English spoken and there's like kind of people from

01:06:17all over the world that live there.

01:06:19And there's a huge design bubble there.

01:06:22And this isn't my plan, but let's just say that I were to graduate from Amsterdam and move my business

01:06:29to Berlin, which is something that I would like to do.

01:06:31Or even say I just moved back here to L.A., Orange County, to bring the business back here.

01:06:40And so the plan isn't to keep it in Amsterdam, more or less, is what I'm trying to say.

01:06:45Yeah, I thought you were talking about starting a business while you were still a student, so that would have

01:06:50to be in Amsterdam, wouldn't it?

01:06:54Yeah, it would be more or less on the Internet.

01:06:57So it would be like creating social media for these things and creating contacts through the Internet.

01:07:05But these contacts can come from all over.

01:07:08Okay, got it, got it.

01:07:10All right, so it sounds like you've got your educational stuff sorted and your business stuff sorted.

01:07:15And as far as relationships go, I mean, you're not going to be able to settle down for the foreseeable

01:07:21future.

01:07:22I mean, from 20 to 40, like 10 years is kind of half your adult life.

01:07:28So if you're going to go to education and then build a business, you're going to be unable, probably, again,

01:07:34things could change, who knows, right?

01:07:35But you're probably going to be unable to provide for a family for eight years at least.

01:07:43Right.

01:07:45And, I mean, again, can't tell you what to do, but it's just important to know what variables are in

01:07:50play, if that makes sense.

01:07:51Totally.

01:07:53All right.

01:07:53Is there anything else I can help you with?

01:07:55I think that covers it.

01:07:58Fantastic.

01:07:58All right, well, listen, I really do appreciate the call, and definitely, you know, get a spreadsheet, figure out what's

01:08:05going to cost you, figure out what the approaches are, and just recognize that, you know, everything in life, you

01:08:13know, have their costs and benefits, right?

01:08:15They have their costs and benefits, and it's really important in life not to just put one foot in front

01:08:19of the other.

01:08:20Like, I was hiking a really steep hike with some friends recently, and because it was so steep, I didn't

01:08:27actually really enjoy the view.

01:08:28Why?

01:08:28Because it's steep and rocky, so all you're doing is looking right down in front of you, and it's this,

01:08:33like, scrolling waterfall of branches and tree roots and rocks and mud and so on, right?

01:08:38And I remember saying, you know, it's not actually that great a hike because all you're doing is looking at

01:08:43one foot in front of you rather than enjoying the view.

01:08:45And we all get sucked into looking one foot in front of us, like, all the time, like, day to

01:08:48day, got this problem, got this problem.

01:08:50And so I'm the big one for, like, let's take the hot air balloon right over your life and see

01:08:56the choices and consequences and their effects in the long run.

01:08:58And I need that feedback as well as everybody else because I have my problems during the day, and it's

01:09:03very easy to get consumed by the sort of minutiae of the day to day and not look at the

01:09:08big picture stuff.

01:09:10If you were my son, I would, you know, really sit down with you and say, okay, is this really

01:09:15a plan?

01:09:16Like, what percentage of design work is being eaten by AI?

01:09:21Let's look at how good AI has gotten over the last five years, and let's project that forward.

01:09:26It may even accelerate.

01:09:27I mean, Elon Musk is putting data centers in space to further facilitate AI because AI now is currently limited

01:09:35by the need for heat venting and water cooling and so on, whereas in space they have permanent sunlight and

01:09:40they can just vent all of the heat into space.

01:09:42It does no harm at all.

01:09:43And so if we assume that even with the current trajectory, and I think it's only going to increase, how

01:09:49good is AI going to be?

01:09:51And the leaps that it's made over the last five years are huge, and I assume that the leaps it's

01:09:56going to make over the next five years are the same, if not even more.

01:10:00And I think I would do the research into what has happened to the salaries of people in the design

01:10:06field.

01:10:06This information is usually pretty easy to available.

01:10:08Well, ironically, you could even ask AI, but I would look at the salaries, average salaries of design workers in

01:10:16your neck of the woods over the last 10 years and five years and ask AI to take those trends

01:10:22and project them forward and so on.

01:10:24Because, yeah, the last thing you want to do is, you know, burn up half a decade in education and

01:10:30starting a business to then find out that it's not a very viable business because AI is doing a bunch

01:10:35of stuff.

01:10:35And the other thing, of course, which is the other thing I would mention with regards to this plan, is

01:10:41that there are going to be way fewer quality women around in your mid to late 30s than there are

01:10:48now.

01:10:49Right.

01:10:50It's like going to the garage sale on the last five minutes, like the good stuff's all gone.

01:10:55And, you know, again, maybe you'll find some gem I remember picking up for 50 cents, a tape of John

01:10:59Anderson's solo album animation, which I quite liked and hadn't heard for a long time.

01:11:04Nobody else cared. I just happened to be a gem for me.

01:11:07But you have to recognize, of course, that the longer that you delay settling down, the fewer quality women will

01:11:16be around because the quality women, they're like, you know, really great used cars.

01:11:19They don't tend to end up on the market because the really quality women, men marry them and make them

01:11:25happy and they make their men happy and they don't end up back on the dating market.

01:11:28So the problem is, of course, that instead of there being, you know, 20 women that you can choose from

01:11:35or 10 women you can choose from, there may not even be one.

01:11:39And that's another cost that you're going to accrue.

01:11:42The longer you take to settle down, the fewer quality women are available.

01:11:47And I did, you know, I did and my wife did.

01:11:49We happened to win the lottery.

01:11:50We happened to win the lottery in our early 30s due to a variety of circumstances, but that's not something

01:11:55that I would recommend as a plan.

01:11:57So that's the other hidden cost as well.

01:12:00It's that also if you want to have a bunch of kids, let's say you want to have two kids,

01:12:04three kids, four kids or whatever.

01:12:06And in my view, the more the merrier, then as you start to get into your mid to late 30s,

01:12:11you either have to marry quite a bit younger or you have to give up having a bunch of kids

01:12:18because your wife's just going to be older and just not going to have the carrying capacity for a bunch

01:12:23of kids.

01:12:23And of course, if you marry younger, you know, you don't know if you're going to have all your hair,

01:12:29you don't know if, you know, you might get a bit of middle age spread, you don't know how your

01:12:33skin is going to look in your mid to late 30s.

01:12:36And so you're going to be less attractive to a woman in her 20s if you're 10 years older.

01:12:42And one of the ways that men make up for being less attractive at 38 than at 28 is they

01:12:48have a lot of money.

01:12:49And that's one of the reasons why women might overlook that.

01:12:52But if you end up, you know, without having settled down in your mid to late 30s and you don't

01:12:57also have a big income, you're really behind the eight ball.

01:13:02And again, I don't want you to find that out later.

01:13:05I'm just going to give you those warnings ahead of time.

01:13:07And again, I mean, whether you want to do it or sorry, whether you should do it or shouldn't do

01:13:11it, I don't know.

01:13:12But in terms of if you want to settle down because you've been in the dating market, you know, mid

01:13:16teens, you've been in the dating market for, you know, 13 years or something like that.

01:13:21And you haven't settled down.

01:13:22And then you burned up a year, a year and change ago with a woman where the odds of it

01:13:28working out were pretty low.

01:13:30And I mean, you're going to have to recognize that you're probably just going to be able to have flings

01:13:37or affairs or relatively short term relationships until such time as you can actually provide for a family.

01:13:42And that's going to be, that's going to be tough.

01:13:46So there's a lot of costs to pursue design, which may not even pay off if AI continues to advance.

01:13:52So again, I don't know whether you should or shouldn't, but I'm just telling you that, you know, this is

01:13:56the conversation I had with a friend of mine's work colleague who was coming to visit, who was telling me,

01:14:02oh, you're in acting school.

01:14:03Hey, my brother was in acting school.

01:14:04He's in his, he's in his mid thirties and he's getting just enough work to get by.

01:14:10He's got the commercial here or there, but, you know, he's, he's writing his own one man show and he's

01:14:14going to try and take it off Broadway.

01:14:15But, you know, he's kind of panicking because he wants to settle down and have kids, but all he can

01:14:19do is act.

01:14:20He doesn't have any other skills and the acting isn't enough to support a family and he doesn't know whether

01:14:24to continue or start over.

01:14:25And that's, you know, that goosed me enough that, you know, if they say the act is like, if you

01:14:31can do anything else and be happy, you should do that other thing and be happy because only if you

01:14:34can't do anything else and be happy, should you try and be an actor?

01:14:37Because 99% of the money goes to like 1% of the people and the odds of being that

01:14:411%, you'd probably find out pretty quickly.

01:14:43And, and, but then of course you hear all these stories of the actors who, you know, 10 years, they're

01:14:49like, like J.K. Simmons was an actor who played the, the head editor in the Spider-Man movies.

01:14:58And, you know, he was like in his late thirties, early forties before he started getting any real roles.

01:15:03So, you know, those kinds of people can kind of mess with the numbers quite a bit.

01:15:06You know, you can hear about the people who didn't save for retirement, but they win the lottery when they're

01:15:1065 on their birthday.

01:15:11And it's like, yeah, but probably not a great plan for everyone.

01:15:14So yeah, just be aware, like you've got to look at the full spectrum of costs and benefits for what

01:15:19it is you plan to do.

01:15:21And that's what I'm sort of trying to give you a bit of a hot air balloon ride over the

01:15:24future.

01:15:24And so you can make your decision from a more informed standpoint, if that makes sense.

01:15:29Definitely.

01:15:30All right, brother.

01:15:31Well, listen, I hope, I hope it works out and keep me posted.

01:15:34And thanks so much for the call today.

01:15:36Thank you so much, Stefan.

01:15:37Appreciate it.

Category

Transcript

Comments

Recommended