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MICHAEL B. JORDAN AND RYAN COOGLER Write Their Own Rules
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00:00What you think makes our collaboration so special?
00:19In a different life, we would have grew up together. We would have been friends in school.
00:22You know what I'm saying? We probably wouldn't have gotten a lot of work done.
00:25You know, being in the same class.
00:27We wouldn't have gotten a lot of work done.
00:28No.
00:31We like the work.
00:34I think that's a big part of it is we both about the work.
00:40You know what I'm saying?
00:42As much as we joke and play when it's time to work, we get it done.
00:48I admire that about you because you're very professional.
00:51You set a good example on set.
00:56And I think that's been actually the thing that's been the most exciting about seeing you mature as an actor.
01:07It's watching you go from, you know, from Fruitvale when we were kids.
01:11Mm-hm.
01:13And you were a very professional young man.
01:15You had done so much.
01:16You know what I'm saying?
01:17Like in your career already because you started when you were young.
01:21But there is a difference between you on that set and you on this set.
01:25We just finished up on this film.
01:26I'm actually really excited for audiences to see what you've done.
01:30You know?
01:31Appreciate that, man.
01:32And for folks who kind of grown up watching you to see you at this new stage.
01:38That's love.
01:39I mean, I can say the same thing.
01:41I think when I first met you, you always felt and seemed so much older and more mature than I
01:49was.
01:50It was like, man, this dude got his shit together, man.
01:53He got, you know what I'm saying?
01:55Oh, man.
01:55It felt like, you know, you had most of the answers, you know, or you knew exactly what you were
02:01doing.
02:01And it always felt me, it always made me feel safe in situations where I was, you know, taking a
02:08creative swing or stepping outside my comfort zone.
02:10You always made me feel like I could, you know, I could do, you know, I could do anything.
02:14And I think that type of like reassurance and confidence, you know, helped build my own self-confidence, you know,
02:21over the years.
02:22And, you know, I remember in Fruitvale, you know, it was a lot of uncomfortable situations, you know what I
02:29mean?
02:29And scenes and moments we were trying to capture.
02:32And you were always right there next to, you know, next to Rachel or next to me.
02:36And, you know, you always put yourself in a situation and do it.
02:38If you asked me to do it, you was going to do it yourself.
02:40So that always kind of set the standard for me, you know, for what I expected from a leader, from
02:45a director on set.
02:46And as I moved on to other projects and, you know, I took that work ethic and that experience with
02:51me, you know, I always compared.
02:52That was always like my like the bar that I was comparing it to was what was our was our
02:56work relationship, which is extremely unfair to a lot of people.
03:00But at the same time, it let me know that the level of the level at which I wanted to
03:06work and the level that the seriousness I took the craft and what we were trying to accomplish.
03:11So I think it was also our ability to talk real to one another.
03:15There was never no BS.
03:18You know, we always, you know, if we had an issue or not even an issue, something that we wanted
03:22to know and want clarity on, we could always kind of connect on that and get through it.
03:27Yeah.
03:28So that felt empowering.
03:30Yeah, absolutely.
03:31How do you think I challenge you creatively on set or just in general?
03:36I'm a writer director.
03:37So I would say a lot of times with the movies that we've done with any movie, I watched the
03:43film in my head before we we've casted it in, you know, shot it in.
03:51And what I think the transition between script to screen is where the actors come into play.
04:01And I think you are very, you know, you're a gifted actor, very sharp technician, but you also have storytelling
04:10instincts.
04:11You know what I'm saying?
04:11That's a very necessary aspect to the craft of acting.
04:15Where the challenge comes into play is when actors bring things that maybe I haven't thought of as a writer.
04:25And sometimes it might be an improv line or sometimes it might be an instinct of what's not needed or
04:33an instinct of what is needed.
04:35And I can think of a few times where you have a thought about something being false or maybe a
04:46blocking thing where it's like, hey man, what if I came here instead?
04:51You know, I find you to be really, really great at that.
04:55And in those moments it is challenging.
04:57You know what I'm saying?
04:58Because it's like, what do I do with this idea?
05:01What do I do with this thought?
05:03What do I do with this instinct?
05:03And I think a big part of becoming better at my job, you know, is understanding, oh, this is where
05:10the good stuff is.
05:11You know what I mean?
05:12Yeah, yeah.
05:14The natural charisma that you bring, but it's also the discernment, right?
05:19You know what I'm saying?
05:20Like the discernment for what's a false moment, for what's maybe not needed, for maybe what is.
05:25You know, it's a lesson, right?
05:26That all right, when this happens, man, you listen, open your ears up.
05:29You know what I'm saying?
05:30See what this artist is trying to say or put across.
05:37So I think that's actually like the biggest challenge, I would say.
05:45But it's also like a welcome lesson then.
05:46Like, you know, for me, it was something that I hold on to.
05:52You were one of the first directors that I work with that really listened to what I really had to
05:59say or like the instincts in that type of way or didn't.
06:01You know, this one's for you.
06:04You know what I'm saying?
06:05Have fun on this.
06:06You know what I'm saying?
06:06Or, you know, let's try it that way.
06:09Okay, cool.
06:09The best idea kind of wins.
06:11You know what I'm saying?
06:12And that type of approach is not, you know.
06:17Everybody's thing.
06:17Well, I mean, it's hard, man.
06:18You know?
06:19Because you're often behind.
06:21You know what I'm saying?
06:22You got to get to the next thing.
06:24And you might have it in your head like, oh, yeah, we got it.
06:26You know what I'm saying?
06:27But a suggestion from an actor can feel extra sometimes.
06:31You know what I'm saying?
06:31Or when it's a deviation, you know, you had an urge to panic.
06:35Oh, no, this is not.
06:36You know what I'm saying?
06:36It's not how I saw it.
06:38It's not how I saw it.
06:39But, yeah, I think the lesson in it was that actually ends up being the gold.
06:44The good stuff.
06:44You know?
06:45Yeah.
06:47We've been gone a long time.
06:50We back now.
06:54You twins?
06:56Nah, we cousins.
06:57So, man, you did a lot of work on this one.
06:59Mm-hmm.
07:00I think more work than we've done together.
07:02Maybe more work than you've ever done.
07:04Yeah.
07:06Specifically with playing two different people.
07:07Yeah.
07:08What do you hope audiences take away from that?
07:10It's interesting because I'm still processing the two of them.
07:13And it usually takes a minute to kind of...
07:15Shake your character off.
07:16Mm-hmm.
07:17And I got two of them now.
07:19Two characters you gotta shake off.
07:20Yeah.
07:22It's so weird.
07:23I never had to speak about characters in this way.
07:24Because it's like they both live inside me.
07:26You know what I'm saying?
07:27Stack is a bit more free.
07:29He takes a lot more risk.
07:31Yeah.
07:31You know what I mean?
07:32Like always got an idea or a scheme or could see a way things work, which I thought was
07:38a lot of fun.
07:40I never had an opportunity to play a character like that before.
07:43Yeah.
07:44And Smoke being more of the older one, more execution based, more thinking long term.
07:51You know what I'm saying?
07:51How exactly are we gonna get this done?
07:53Like survivalist in a lot of ways.
07:56And hopefully people could take away, you know, the passion, the persistence of these
08:03two characters that, you know, no matter what, they were gonna look out for one another.
08:07You know what I'm saying?
08:07And playing twins, like they kind of have hive minds, you know, and emotions on certain
08:13things.
08:14So, you know, I guess for any one person, if they're looking at both those characters, hopefully
08:21they see a little bit of themselves in both of them.
08:24And hopefully people take that away.
08:26And then also the love they got for the people around them, you know, and their family and
08:31their friends.
08:32Like love is a big thing in this.
08:34You know, they really care deeply about their family and close friends.
08:39So, yeah, I hope people take a little bit of all that.
08:42I mean, the movie is so rich and the characters are so rich and so layered.
08:45It's like, I want them to, you know.
08:47Appreciate it all.
08:48Yeah.
08:49You know, and I think we did a great job at, you know, you did a great job at building
08:53these characters to be, you know, universal and 360 in a lot of ways, but being very specific
08:59to, you know, to themselves as well.
09:02So that's a tough thing to do.
09:04Why do you feel like it's important to protect black culture?
09:06Yeah.
09:07I know it's not an easy question to answer.
09:09No, no, it's not, man.
09:10It's a profound question.
09:12I think for me as a filmmaker, it's not something that one person should take on, right?
09:19You know what I'm saying?
09:20Like in terms of protecting or preserving a culture, you know, everybody got their role
09:26in that, right?
09:27You know, cinema is a beautiful art form, man.
09:29It's been around about a century, right?
09:32So in terms of our artistic medium, it's relatively young, you know what I'm saying?
09:38Like in terms of human history.
09:40And before a good part of that, a good part of those hundred years, the power of cinema
09:47has kind of been wielded against our culture.
09:50It's a long history of filmmakers of our culture that, you know, fighting against those ties
09:56that maybe marginalize our stories or just flat out ignore them, you know?
10:04Yep.
10:04And at worst, portray them in a skewed light, you know, that obscures the truth or the whole truth.
10:13You know, I'm blessed to be able to make these movies and tell these stories.
10:17And I'm just blessed to have a job, you know what I'm saying?
10:20But even more blessed that people show up, you know, when we make them.
10:24You know, that's something that I'll never want to take for granted.
10:28And while I had this opportunity, you know, it's my job to portray culture as what it is.
10:35You know, as what it really and truly is in the medium.
10:41And also, you know, what it could be.
10:44Yeah, I think you were doing a great job, you know what I'm saying?
10:46The movies, the characters and the stories that you choose to tell
10:51and what you want to put your lens onto.
10:53Yeah.
10:54You know, I think, you know, it's been, you know, all very, very personal.
10:58And I know the culture and the community, you know, when they watch your movies and their films,
11:04they see a piece of themselves of what is, what has been and what could be.
11:09And I think that's really, you know, it's not an easy thing to do.
11:14And you've been doing it, you know what I'm saying, to the highest level, you know.
11:18And it's been great to be a part of it.
11:21Appreciate that.
11:22Yeah.
11:22I know you love all types of movies.
11:23You're a cinephile.
11:25Mm-hmm.
11:26But what was it like stepping into the horror genre this time?
11:29It was stepping into horror this time around.
11:32First time in this genre.
11:35That's crazy.
11:36You made a lot of movies.
11:37A lot of films.
11:37A lot of TV.
11:39It's the first time in the horror.
11:40It's the one genre I don't personally gravitate to off top.
11:45So I don't personally watch a lot of horror films.
11:47You know what I'm saying?
11:48Okay.
11:48Why not?
11:51Because I don't enjoy being scared.
11:52You don't like being scared?
11:53Nah.
11:53It's not one of my things.
11:57What's your go-to when you're scared?
11:58You throw the popcorn up?
12:00Yeah.
12:01It's one of them.
12:02I'm down here.
12:03I'm down here.
12:04I'm like, oh, that happened?
12:05That's crazy.
12:06That's crazy.
12:07When you was coming up, did you hit them open at night?
12:09Like, go out and-
12:10No.
12:10No way.
12:11Nah, that wasn't.
12:12My sister, my mom, all day.
12:14They love you.
12:14Love it.
12:15Love all the horror movies.
12:16You know what I'm saying?
12:17But for me, so when you first hit me, in the back of my head, I was like, oh, this
12:22is
12:22gonna be how I get over horror movies.
12:24Like, this is it.
12:24Uh-huh.
12:24If I make one, I see how it's made.
12:26You know what I'm saying?
12:27I'll be good to go.
12:28It's so much fun to make, right?
12:29Wasn't it fun?
12:31It was a lot of fun.
12:32It was.
12:32It was.
12:32I think the-
12:34It's so much fun.
12:35It is, because most of the time we had to stop ourselves from laughing.
12:38Yeah.
12:38It was so much fun.
12:39Yeah, it is.
12:40And like the most dire moments is the most fun and the most comical.
12:45Yeah.
12:46I would say the one thing that I did not look forward to, and I-
12:51Yeah.
12:52I know what's coming.
12:53Oh, man.
12:53It's the blood element.
12:54Yeah.
12:55Oh, man.
12:56Yeah.
12:56The sticky blood?
12:57No, it's tough for you.
12:58It's tough.
12:59It's tough.
12:59Yeah, that's something I didn't look forward to doing.
13:02I used to have to, like, keep from laughing at you when you was covering it in it, bro,
13:07because you really didn't like it.
13:08And like, I didn't know you had a problem with it.
13:10I didn't know how to-
13:11I didn't know how to problem with it, yeah.
13:12Zizi told me.
13:12Like, Zizi put me to the side, like, hey, we got a problem.
13:15And I'm like, I'm thinking this, I'm thinking like, you know-
13:18It's a real problem.
13:19Yeah, yeah.
13:20It's a real problem.
13:20I hear you.
13:21But I'm thinking like, it's like something, you know, just disastrous.
13:24The way she looked, she was like, hey, Mike doesn't like having blood on him.
13:28And I'm like, I'm like, huh?
13:30And she's like, no, he really doesn't like it.
13:31Like, it's a problem.
13:34Oh, it's so bad.
13:35It's so bad.
13:35It's so bad.
13:36It's so bad.
13:36I'm like, oh, man.
13:39And there was a lot of blood in this one.
13:40There was a lot of blood in this one.
13:41A lot of blood.
13:41Yeah, it was.
13:42But yeah, so that's-
13:43What is it?
13:44Just like the sensation of it?
13:45It's the stickiness of it.
13:47It's like having like a sticky, wet t-shirt on.
13:51Yeah.
13:51Or just, and then-
13:52Yeah, nobody was into it.
13:53No, no, I hear you.
13:54None of the actors.
13:54No, no, but you, especially like, yeah, this is crazy.
13:58Because it dries in two seconds.
13:59Yeah.
13:59You know what I'm saying?
14:00And then you got to reapply water, spray water on it.
14:02Oh, man.
14:03It's a thousand.
14:05Anyway.
14:06But outside of that-
14:07Yeah, outside of the blood.
14:08It was great.
14:08It was good.
14:09Yeah, yeah.
14:11Oh, man.
14:11For you, you know, first time directing the horror, how'd you feel stepping into that genre for
14:16the first time?
14:17I loved it.
14:18Loved it?
14:18Okay.
14:18But I love, I like movies in general.
14:22You know, it's something about the horror genre that just cuts deeper maybe than any genre.
14:29Okay.
14:30You know?
14:32And for me, my favorite experiences, like when I look back, are experiences where like
14:39everybody was scared.
14:40You know what I mean?
14:41Like in the theater.
14:41Like even in movies that aren't horror movies.
14:43Like if somebody said, hey, is Jurassic Park a horror movie?
14:47You'd be like, nah.
14:48Got you.
14:48Like, but if somebody was like, hey man, what scenes do you remember in Jurassic Park?
14:53It's the water rippling.
14:54For sure.
14:55The T-Rex coming out.
14:56Like where is he?
14:57You know what I mean?
14:57For sure.
14:57The velociraptor opening the door.
14:59You know what I mean?
15:00Like, and I'm from, you know what I'm saying?
15:03I grew up watching movies in Oakland, in Richmond, in the Bay Area.
15:06And like, you know, theaters in the 90s, bruh, 2000s, chock full of black people.
15:11You know what I'm saying?
15:12Talking to the screen.
15:13You know what I'm saying?
15:14Horror movies is when they talk to the screen the most.
15:16You know what I'm saying?
15:17Like, don't go in there.
15:18No, no, no.
15:18Not what you're doing.
15:19Run, girl, run.
15:21Hey, get him.
15:22You know, you know, I'll never forget.
15:24We went to see Halloween, one of these Halloween movies, Century 16.
15:30We see you in there open at night, bro.
15:32It's packed.
15:33And it's getting late in the movie.
15:36And then you think Michael Myers is dead.
15:39You know what I'm saying?
15:39Yeah, yeah.
15:40And then he popped back up.
15:43And it's just this auntie, she's like, yeah, baby.
15:46Back like I never left.
15:48Bro.
15:50And I'm like, man, this auntie here cheering for Michael Myers.
15:53You know what I'm saying?
15:56That's dope.
15:57That's great.
15:57It's a dream for a director to make something that's got that type of audience engagement.
16:02Definitely.
16:02It's got that type of electricity.
16:03It's got people covering.
16:04Covering their eyes and stuff.
16:05You know what I mean?
16:06Yeah, yeah.
16:06And ready to walk out, but they want to say to see what's going to happen.
16:10And I loved it, man.
16:12I'm not going to lie, bro.
16:13I might not ever go back.
16:15You know what I'm saying?
16:17No, we had a lot of fun, man.
16:19Oh, man.
16:20A lot of laughs.
16:21A lot of laughs, bro.
16:22Yeah.
16:22That's good.
16:23I was thinking.
16:24I said, man, what's the biggest lesson that you as a black man have learned in that type
16:30of industry?
16:31It's a lot of lessons.
16:33Yeah.
16:33You know, constantly learning, still learning.
16:36What's the most important when you were saying for somebody looking to get into it, like
16:40looking and thinking about dedicating their life to the crowd?
16:43You know what I'm saying?
16:44I would say it's never just a job.
16:49You know, I don't think it's never just like one role.
16:52It's never just, oh, I'll just do this and keep it pushing.
16:56I think every choice that you make means something.
17:01Right.
17:04And can potentially always mean something, you know?
17:09It's beautiful.
17:09I think there's like a intentionality that you need to have.
17:15Mm-hm.
17:16And you're defined by what you say no to, you know?
17:20I think it's okay to say no to things.
17:23Even though a lot of times we feel like we can't.
17:26Yeah, because it's scarce, right?
17:28Because when's the next opportunity going to come around?
17:29Yeah.
17:30You know, I've auditioned for so many.
17:32I heard so many no's.
17:33Yeah.
17:33I finally get a yes.
17:33Now I need to take that yes.
17:35It's scary shit you can't breathe.
17:36Desperation.
17:37I think so.
17:37And in doing so, sometimes you put yourself on a trajectory or you are viewed a certain
17:51style or a type of actor that will limit the opportunities that you get in the future.
17:55Right.
17:56I think that's something that I paid attention to fairly young and tried to make good decisions
18:07and, you know, and choices.
18:09Now granted, you know, and this is how I feel, you know, what's for you is for you and what's
18:17not for you is not for you, you know?
18:18Because, you know, just because you say you want this type of career or you want these
18:25type of roles doesn't mean that somebody's going to hire you for those type of roles and
18:27you'll get those type of jobs.
18:29Like that doesn't, that one, that doesn't, it's not equal in that type of way.
18:33Right.
18:33Right.
18:33In this industry.
18:34Right.
18:35So making every opportunity that you step on set count.
18:39Yep.
18:39It means something.
18:41Yep.
18:41And how you treat people.
18:44You know, I think, I think your, your reputation, your word, you know, your, your, your name,
18:50how people's, you know, speak about you when you're not in the room.
18:54Uh, obviously there's a lot of that you, you have no control over.
18:57You know what I'm saying?
18:57Right.
18:58But at the same time, you know, how you treat somebody, um, as an actor, you know, from,
19:04to a PA to, you know, you know, teamsters to hair and makeup, uh, the crafty, you know,
19:12that, that, that all, that all carries with you throughout your career.
19:16So I would say to, uh, you know, one of the biggest lessons also is, you know, that PA
19:21is not always going to be a PA.
19:22Yeah.
19:23You know what I'm saying?
19:24You know, that, that assistant ain't always going to be an assistant.
19:26That's a future executive.
19:27That's a future director.
19:28That's a future, you know, um, department head.
19:31So, so you, you always want to.
19:33Kindness.
19:33Yep.
19:34Always lead with kindness.
19:35I mean, and I, and I'm sure, you know, you always give your flowers, you know, but,
19:38but, you know, I've never seen you raise your voice.
19:42And, and we've been in some pretty high, um, stake situations, you know, a lot of,
19:48you know, a lot of things going on.
19:52Mm-hmm.
19:52No sleep, no rest.
19:54You know what I'm saying?
19:55Yeah.
19:55You know, stressed out.
19:56And you always kind of, you know, have a moment to take a breath or you pull somebody
20:00to the side, you have a conversation.
20:02You always set an example that way.
20:04So that, that's, you know, I know a lot of people who speak about those experiences with
20:10you as well.
20:11You know, when you're not in the room and it's always at the, at the, at the highest level.
20:14And I just, it just goes to a testament of who you are and how you treat people and,
20:19you know, how that comes back around.
20:21Yeah.
20:21Yeah.
20:21But, but as a director, you know, what was, you know, and as a director, you yourself,
20:26as a black man, what's like the biggest lesson that I think you've learned in the entertainment
20:29industry?
20:31One of the more important, it's hard for me to say right here what the biggest one is,
20:34but one of the, one of the more important ones I think is that black people, we have a very
20:43unique relationship to, to, to art and commerce.
20:48And this film is about that in a major way.
20:51So somehow our country became the major, arbitrary contributor to global pop culture.
21:05Right.
21:06And though we were subjugated, somehow everything that is considered cool or, or, or interesting
21:18and artistic that the country was able to pipe out, somehow we were at the center of
21:23that, you know, even though we were in the position that we were in.
21:31Systemically.
21:32Yes.
21:33Music, you know, you know, fine arts, fashion, some, some, somehow we was always right the
21:40center of that, you know, how we make art, how we consume it, what we think, what moves
21:45us, what doesn't.
21:46And that relationship is like something that's, that's, that's very special and has to be,
21:51I think, respected.
21:52You have to constantly be aware of it, you know, and what it, and what it can mean when
21:57you, when you, when you, when you step into, you know, rooms where, where a lot of power
22:05is, but maybe you aren't as represented as, as you would hope, you know.
22:10Part of this lesson is like, I asked myself, man, like, like, like, like, you know, why
22:15is do the right thing so good?
22:16What makes spike spike?
22:18You know what I'm, you know what I'm saying?
22:19And, and, and, and, and, and understanding that is helpful.
22:25Like when you talked about being, exercising discernment over what you do and what you don't
22:30do.
22:30Yeah.
22:30I've heard Denzilla say the exact same thing.
22:32Mm-hmm.
22:33Chadwick, rest in peace, would say the exact same thing.
22:35What they talking about is maintaining their dignity.
22:38Mm-hmm.
22:39You know, even, even, even, even though it was scarce and, and, and through you guys
22:45maintaining your dignity, the dignity of the audience.
22:59Mm-hmm.
23:00That decision from, from, from, from a white artist, right?
23:03Correct.
23:03Like, not as much as resting on.
23:05Mm-hmm.
23:06That decision, that choice.
23:07What, what, what one does or doesn't do.
23:09What thinks about that role, et cetera, et cetera.
23:11Yeah.
23:11You know, you know, you know what I'm, it, it is different for us.
23:14Correct.
23:14You know, and you have to, you have to operate knowing that.
23:18Mm-hmm.
23:18You know what I'm saying?
23:19You know what I'm saying?