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00:02hello welcome to copper independent the independence world cup podcast i am a deflated
00:08lawrence osler and i'm joined by senior football correspondent richard jolly in new jersey hi rich
00:13hi lawrence and we are hoping to be joined shortly by chief football writer miguel delaney in atlanta
00:20who was just been finishing off his piece covering england's world cup exit and you get a flavor of
00:27miguel's feelings about it with his headline thomas tuchel lost his bottle rich england out of the
00:35world cup 2-1 to argentina 1-0 up and and looking really good for about well up until scoring
00:43ironically probably the worst thing they could have done was score a goal and then everything
00:48collapsed what happened well i think there's probably two or three things that happened and
00:52one of them is that argentina was spurred to life by conceding whereas it felt in the first half
00:58they were too busy trying to needle and rile england and then suddenly they remembered actually
01:02they needed to score a goal and you have this strange argentina team who they're one of the
01:08oldest teams in the tournament and yet they they come on strong at the end of games and score a
01:13lot
01:13of late goals but from an england perspective i guess you could say what happened thomas tuchel
01:17happened and they might have hoped that that sentence would signify that a world-class manager
01:25had made the difference and in fact this was a game where tuchel's decisions backfired he went to a
01:30back five and it backfired he went for backs against the wall and it backfired and england went on the
01:36defensive way too early the word thomas tuchel himself used was passive but i think it probably
01:41even went beyond that it looked like they were trying to replicate the game plan from the end of the
01:47win in mexico but with 11 men and it felt a bit needless they just completely ceded the midfield
01:54to argentina by putting everyone in defense and even having another defender in midfield in
02:00nico o'reilly they took off the goal scorer anthony gordon which in itself i don't think is necessarily
02:06a bad thing because gordon works so hard he can run himself into the ground but it's the fact they
02:11brought on esri consa a defender and it gave argentina the initiative and the momentum
02:16and there's that remarkable statistic flying around which we have to presume is true that
02:22england had 12 percent of possession in about 36 minutes of the game yeah between between england's
02:28goal and argentina's winner i think it was wasn't it which is like you say absolutely remarkable and
02:34telling in itself there was a point and you mentioned anthony gordon there was a point around the hour mark
02:40where he made it if you remember this england won nil up and he made a huge long press like
02:45down the left
02:45wing across towards martinez over to the left back position and then back into his station and he was
02:53absolutely exhausted after that it was completely pointless and unnecessary great endeavor but but
02:59unnecessary in the circumstances of that that game state jogged back to his position and he barely was
03:04able to muster a sprint after that and i felt it was the right decision to bring gordon off probably
03:09soon after that but for me it had to be marcus rashford or possibly bakaya saka and and moving
03:17morgan rogers over to the other side to bring on concert which he did on 72 minutes sends a message
03:25to
03:25the whole team that we are just trying to defend this lead now and obviously 72 minutes in this world
03:31cup
03:31with hydration breaks and the time added on is not 18 minutes left it's it's almost half a well it
03:37was
03:37half an hour of football that followed that substitution to defend your own box for half an
03:43hour and i know england did it in like you said in similar circumstances against mexico but as but that
03:49was down to 10 men that was very much enforced and also that was very fortunate i think i think
03:53too cool
03:53and i said this a few days ago i'm not sort of saying this just purely with hindsight now but
03:58too cool got away with that i think him against mexico because he went very very early
04:04and was and mexico didn't take advantage of the fact that dan burn was in the middle of
04:09the middle of england's defense miguel has joined us from atlanta can you hear me
04:14had you started recording we've made a start but you are very welcome to join us can you hear us
04:19yeah i can everything's good now after the failure of fifa's wi-fi not the only thing there was a
04:24bureaucratic challenge with tonight but yes miguel we've just been talking a little bit about
04:29uh thomas tuchel's substitutions how england retreated after scoring a goal i mean what was
04:36your take on it i've already mentioned your pretty punchy headline on on tuchel what was the the phrase
04:44lost his bottle talk to us about your interpretation of what what happened tonight right so england can
04:52lose that game in other circumstances where they were it's not a guarantee they're going to go through
04:57but where it's so damning for tuchel is how he a has actively changed the equation through his
05:05decision he has lessened england's chances that is that is the biggest thing that would be bad for
05:10any manager it garrett's okay would have got hammered for it it's especially bad from a manager who has
05:16been appointed at great expense specifically to quote unquote get england over the line because of his
05:23greater coaching intelligence and instead just as a rat the line or at least to get back to a world
05:28cup final for what have been the country's best moments in 1966 finally at that stage again he his
05:35decisions drag england away from it i think that that's where it's so bad and it does feel like this
05:42could have greater repercussions as well and that look the fa have already given him a new contract
05:46can it ever be the same after this because it does feel something is broken especially given
05:50look you could sense you could sense it with the kind of anger in the country but there's something
05:54deeper there as well because this isn't after the fact commentary everyone said it when they went to
05:58five at the back and even i was getting coaches in the premier league a lot of football people from
06:02around the world wondering what is he doing that like that that's how obvious this was and it does
06:08feel like was he trying to opt for some great gamble he obviously tried this against mexico but and it
06:13just about came off well it didn't just about to be fair mexico were a limited side but this is
06:18argentina with leo messi and in terms of kind of changing the equation what's so damning about it
06:23as well is for most of that game messi's on the ball a few times obviously anderson checks them all
06:27that sort of thing but it's almost like the expansive pitch is too big for messi to cover so he
06:31has to
06:31save himself for moments so what and what tuchel's decision does is it suddenly gives messi the ball
06:38and time in areas where he is most dangerous and where he didn't even have to move for it he
06:43suddenly
06:43he was free to start playing all these one twos the edge of the box to collect to cross him
06:47with
06:48all sorts of space around them i mean like and it's i mean it's telling that both of their goals
06:51came from messi all right the first one that's just a pass and fernandez whacks it but similar
06:56situation there because fernandez despite being a mere 10 feet from the england area has a chasm of space
07:02around him it's it's astonishing really just how how much tuchel himself changed england's chances of
07:10going through yeah i completely agree with the midfield essentially went from a five-man midfield
07:14where anthony gordon is out on that left side and there isn't much space there for messi to operate
07:19to a four-man midfield which is much narrower just by dint of numbers and mathematics and there's that
07:27space on the on england's left side which messi just stood in for for the rest of the game and
07:33england were just not able to cover that like you said he had space to operate to cross to dribble
07:38to do all sorts and even and even the fernandez assist like you said actually he his sheer
07:43presence on that side of the pitch with space meant three england players rushed over and suddenly
07:47fernandez had a huge hole in the england's defense to shoot through and even on that as well you're
07:53talking about a player that can the one player in the world right now maybe only three or four in
07:57history that unless it's a penalty can basically put the ball wherever he wants and you're giving him
08:02license to just have the ball there at the corner of your box and repeatedly pick a spot i mean
08:06he was coming it's it's it's it's remarkable i don't know if you've had a chance to speak to
08:13tuchel or seen his interviews there his i i had a quick look at quick tune into his interview on
08:19i on
08:19bbc sport and he to me seems to be slightly putting it on the players suggesting that the retreat happened
08:26before his substitution of of gordon concert coming on that essentially england had given up the ball in
08:35that previous 15 minutes and therefore his only solution was to batten down the hatches because
08:41england didn't have the ball they couldn't create chances so there was no point throwing on an
08:44attacking player that's what it seemed like he was hinting at which to me for someone who's been so
08:49kind of i don't know he's been so open and honest and and direct i think he wasn't able to
08:55just stand
08:56there and say i made a mistake or i i think i would have done something differently which obviously he
09:00would have done if he could rewind the clock surely yeah uh i i find that curious reading and because
09:05you're to mention to this i mean look we can't go without mentioning argentina there's two sides to
09:10the equation and whereas tuchel subs didn't work scolone's did uh they also also to be fair to
09:16argentina for all they've been i think they they're seen as not as good a side as 2022 and they
09:21aren't
09:22but they've obviously got other qualities as we've spoken about a fight and ability to get into it but
09:26they're susceptible to pace they were petrol like so the whole game in the first half was then
09:31basically trying to draw england into a traditional war so england couldn't stretch the game and to
09:36keep in the center which they successfully did that's not tuchel's fault to be fair and and i think
09:40what's even more frustrating for england is that they'd respond to that with a really well worked goal
09:45and kept the discipline and you could see in the way spence was actually really causing argentina
09:50problems and to the point that their way of kind of stopping him was like this was a series of
09:55borderline challenges that more a few of them probably should have got bookings i think i mean
09:59it was quite permissive refereeing but for all of the talk about you know decisions before this game
10:04the only decision that really matters i think is tuchel's at that moment you say and
10:08it's a classic case of if you put some more attacking players maybe that shifts that it shifts
10:13the emphasis in another way that gives argentina more to think about it certainly prevents that
10:17onslaught i think that's the key and it's funny like i was someone who worked at a premier league club
10:22was messaging me during the game about like their knowledge of england saying with this game
10:26they have a better squad than argentina there's higher quality there's more range of options
10:30the issue is genuinely psychological that they have to believe which sounds simplistic but this
10:35is the way people in football do think as well and it did feel like right maybe that's what tuchel
10:40is getting at and maybe we can allow some credence there but his response actually felt like it
10:46it was inevitably going to just destroy belief further because it was just argentina were just
10:51battering down the door there's a couple of elements as well to add to that and one of them i
10:56think is
10:57that it does feel as though the tuchel blueprint to some extent is to have physical over technical
11:03players and england did have some pretty limited players by the standards of a world cup semi-final on
11:10the pitch towards the end when you're talking about bringing on concert bringing on dan byrne in the
11:17hope he can head everything away but there's also been previous england games where in world cup
11:23semi-finals and euro 2020 final they haven't been able to keep the ball but in then it was a
11:28slightly
11:28different uh situation this time tuchel just completely abandoned the midfield gareth safari didn't
11:34so much abandon the midfield then it was then that england got outpassed by people like luca modric and
11:39giorgio and marco verrati but you also say well who could he have brought on to keep the ball well
11:45he hasn't used kobe mainu all tournament he didn't take adam wharton to the tournament so there actually
11:51are some technical players there that he didn't use and it did feel as though his game plan to hold
11:57on to a lead was the dan bernes riconsa route which worked against mexico and norway but as miguel said
12:05mexico and norway are more limited teams than argentina and by not having a in effect not having
12:10a midfield towards the end of that game it gives messi more room it gives enzo fernandez more room
12:15they also gave alexis mccallister more room and he hit the woodwork twice so it very easily could
12:21have been alexis mccallister who turns the game around whilst england they've got all these defenders
12:25but not enough of a midfield yeah and i felt there was an issue in attack as well where you've
12:31got a
12:32problem which is a nice problem to have where kane and bellingham are basically these un unremovable
12:37players they immovable they have to be on the pitch pretty much for 90 minutes it seems like
12:42but you have a real issue where if you need to counter-attack or you just need fresh energy
12:47they can't be removed because they're so sort of totemic they're so important to the england team
12:53and so neither of them were contributing much at all in that final second really in the second half
13:00certainly after england scored and yet you know would argentina's two center backs have wanted
13:06to face rashford at that point and the counter-attack when they both were on yellow cards or or ollie
13:11watkins i think they would have been scared by some pace but england didn't do that tucco didn't do
13:16that and perhaps he didn't wasn't able to do that because those players are just leaders that can't be
13:22removed from the team and i think that's almost a strange issue with england it's just as we were um
13:27as i was wrestling with the wi-fi trying to get online to start this podcast somebody in football
13:32messaged me saying tactically in this england one of the least interesting semi-finals in years
13:37because they did and this touches exactly what you said there laurence it's basically it's whoever
13:42the eight players are essentially hoping pickford keeps them in the game and uh bellingham and cain
13:48win it and that is they sort of it yeah yeah i think it's actually worth zooming out here a
13:55bit as well
13:55because i mean first of all you've got the issue that you get into bigger debates here about what
14:01england's idea is what the intention is here and english fans may want to hear this i think there's
14:08an element of football justice in the sense that what the fa should really have been thinking about
14:14and this goes back 15 years not just the current fa is trying to decide what english football actually
14:19looks like what the national team is supposed to play and it's amazing these are these questions
14:24have been sent in 50 years ago because they've got so much right but they've got so much right by
14:28basically pumping more money into it than pretty much any country barbara four or five can do that
14:33means they've got the coaching structures right so eventually they finally have players they've got
14:37a critical mass of quality players that will guarantee you go that you at least get far in more
14:43tournaments and obviously then that hasn't yet translated into coaching education which is related to the
14:48issue of what does english football actually look like so there is almost it does feel a bit
14:53at the same time as it's very expensive it feels a bit cheap to basically oh well what we do
14:58now
14:58we'll just go get a winner like someone's trying to bolt on a solution and if you do that it
15:03does
15:03feel like any from a purely football just a sense that they don't win it like that that they have
15:08to learn another way and look who knows they might go and win the euros now at home but it's
15:12a home
15:12euros that isn't the world cup and i do think that the fa should be thinking about much more this
15:17should dish as close they've got they should cause more introspection instead of giving tuchel a new
15:22contract and they've got closer and closer to gianni and ventino because they want to host uh more
15:28tournaments and there should actually be more debate about that and what they actually want to do here
15:32one element of that and we're talking about english football and how they play tournaments i mean
15:37that retreat in the second half is very very familiar that's not
15:41sort of you know isolated to this tuchel team we saw it under southgate we've seen it under
15:46pretty much every england manager in my lifetime where they score a goal england against a good side
15:51and then immediately go on the back foot and generally concede a goal is that why why does that
15:57happen i mean even i mean tuchel is right that that in the few minutes are before he brought on
16:02concert england did go completely to a sort of defensive mode and and obviously argentina are then
16:08chasing an equalizer but why is that do england just not have the technical players like a bit
16:12like you said rich the players who can keep the ball in those scenarios where where spain might just
16:16pass it around for a little bit or is it a mentality thing i mean why why are we so
16:21bad at turning a
16:23one nil lead into a two nil lead against good sides the short answer would be i don't know it
16:30is a it
16:31is a repeated issue there is and it's interesting england's had three foreign managers and they all end up
16:36becoming more english than the english in some respects you know swengor and ericsson was
16:40completely wedded to 4-4-2 so england sometimes got outnumbered in midfield fabio capello played an
16:46even worse 4-4-2 and got completely outmaneuvered in midfield and then thomas tuchel comes in and he
16:53and he's willing to change his tactics but it's by going to backs against the wall five at the back
16:58we try and head everything away not we try and keep the ball i don't have a definitive answer i
17:04mean
17:04it's interesting what miguel said about trying to sort of bolt on a serial winner as a manager
17:09because that's actually what brazil tried to do with carlo ancelotti as well and that
17:13didn't work but yeah england do have this historic problem of how to keep the ball
17:19then they've never really been good enough at it i think it probably didn't help in this world cup
17:27that declan rice had the injury and illness problems that he has had but even though england
17:34do have a large number of good footballers you could argue that they have fewer of them in central
17:41midfield than some other positions which is exacerbated by a leaving one or two people out
17:46and b first taking a 36 year old jordan henderson and then losing him when he falls over some advertising
17:53hoardings and so you then get this sort of scenario whereby what do england do in midfield when they
17:59need to make a substitution well it can it it can be a fullback there whether it's reese james or
18:05nicko o'reilly and so i think that's a case in this tournament but you do have that historic thing of
18:11how do england control a game when they're one nil up and in many cases as you say they don't
18:18go two
18:18nil up against the top teams it's really not that often that england have gone two up
18:23against the top team in a quarter final or a semi-final or obviously a final look look at the
18:29game state and the actual the profile of the two teams argentina in fact he's even allowing for
18:36scolone's sons they are a mostly slow and compact team who suddenly have to stretch the game in search
18:42of an equalizer england have at that moment of the pitching at least three extremely fast players
18:49and that is prime to take advantage of and they didn't even do that and like this is where
18:55even if the players are losing belief you've got a hydration break to actually give them belief not
19:00to just kind of surrender to instincts in that way that that's where it just feels like so lacking in
19:05imagination and also because like you said in terms of the fast players like i said i think tuchel
19:11picked a squad based to some extent on physicality you look at the wingers he picked and the players he
19:17didn't pick for a certain extent you know rushford and gordon those are two quick players and at the
19:22start of the tournament it felt as though the blueprint was well one of them plays 70 minutes
19:26then the other one comes on instead he moved away from that to go to bringing on a defender and
19:32thus
19:32taking away that counter-attacking threat and as you said lawrence earlier it felt like kane and
19:38bellingham were that were the non-negotiables they're the ones who are going to stay on okay fine but
19:43there is the option there of bringing on pace on the flanks argentina play very much in the center
19:48of the pitch really and arguably their weakest positions to begin with a fullback so you know a
19:55fully a fresh marcus rashford running at pace at a fullback that's a potential way of going two nil up
20:02england didn't take that approach at all yeah it felt crying out for rashford and saka to come on
20:08on that second hydration break and and give england that injection of pace and take and push
20:14argentina's fullbacks back i don't know i'd love to love to know if there was a discussion if anthony
20:20barry you know raised the idea of tuchel was just utterly wedded to this even before kickoff the idea
20:25of sort of retreating and and he's brought on dan burn in all three of those games mexico
20:30norway and norway with about 10-15 minutes to go but it's it's a very bold tactic and wayne rooney
20:37was scathingly critical on bbc he was also critical after the mexico game even when they won
20:43and he said the same thing tonight he's just went too defensive too early but but isn't that thing
20:48like i mean again you stand back tuchel's been tuchel has specifically been appointed because of his
20:54tactical sophistication that's what the fee represents and because they've been so obviously
20:58because they were guided by his cv and what does this tactical sophisticate to be fair like it's not
21:03an exaggeration that this is true he's probably got the best cv managerial cv at this tournament
21:08outside carlo ancelotti and what does he end up doing just reaching for the big lad get go on not
21:14like it's and no one's forced like well look we're gonna wrap up soon i think but that is perhaps
21:24one more question for both of you i mean how bad is this for tuchel we're obviously talking a few
21:28minutes after the final whistle and there'll be time for things to settle and people to to analyze
21:34what's happened over the past few weeks but ultimately i feel like this game and the way
21:39it's panned out has actually changed how the mexico game has been was interpreted how the even the
21:46norway game i feel like it's going to adjust the the wider viewpoint on tuchel's entire tournament
21:53isn't it so how do you think people will interpret thomas tuchel's first major tournament as as an
22:01international manager well first of all okay like for all the country enjoyed the journey and there's
22:06been great moments epic games a fostered belief that fostering belief obviously means nothing now
22:10because they're out and also whatever about the journey he's not here for the journey he's here for
22:15the end he's here for the destination that's what he's been appointed for there's been no progress
22:19from so okay at that point there's been no progress in terms of performance given most of the games
22:23or a mess and from that it's where look as you say we'll see how pans out we'll see how
22:28the reaction
22:29the big risk for me and i think the problem the fa has got now is that potentially breaks the
22:34spell
22:34for the players that they believe tuchel what to was a was a great coach uh that he like he's
22:40a he's a
22:40higher level all this sort of thing and they've seen that and seen it as one thing now there's
22:44possibly the second potential issue where as you said laurence he's it feels like he's implicitly
22:50criticized the players rather than himself for how that went because they lost belief how are they
22:54going to respond to that is that going to add to this look again that might be something that's
22:57looked over in the moments but like ultimately england's had a great chance to have their best
23:03day in football since 1966 and the coaches decisions reduced that chance rich what do you think how will
23:10is this is semi-finals about parming how will it be how do you sit i think a semi-final
23:16in itself is
23:17possibly even above par given england's history i think it's more the manner of it as miguel said
23:24and it's also the question does it break the spell because to to go back to a comparison with the
23:29previous england manager svenior and ericsson the first time people really started doubting him
23:35was that quarterfinal defeat to brazil and his lack of response then when england went you know
23:42and so you've got a similar situation of the imported winner and then it comes to a first
23:49defining game and he doesn't really have an answer or he doesn't really have the correct answer shall
23:54we say and so there will be questions when england i mean i assume took a will still be in
24:00charge i
24:00assume that the fa don't want to sack him in part because fa is rarely want to sack managers because
24:07then it poses the question of what do you do next and they often don't have a very good answer
24:12but that will hang over him until every defining tournament game in euro 2028 that we every time
24:21there if england are one nil up is he going to just pack the defense is he going to bring
24:27on an even
24:27older dan burn or to find an even taller man to stand in the defense and can england actually construct
24:35a proper footballing way of going about it because the tournament as a whole yeah semi-final in itself
24:41is fine except for in the element that england desperately want to win something but the actual
24:48performances over the tournament have not and not that many of them have been great miguel's been at
24:54mexico city which is obviously an incredible experience the croatia game was pretty good
24:59beyond that i don't think england's performance level has been that impressive that often and clearly
25:05some of that reflects on the manager and the choices he made which were justifiable to some
25:10extent as long as they carried carried on in the tournament but then the way that last 30 35 minutes
25:17unraveled today that's really damning yeah also just just to pick up on what we said there and this was
25:24said before the tournament that it's going to come down to the first game where you're not that you're
25:31not the better side and england have lost it because look as much of a challenge as as norway
25:36were as decent aside if not like 2018 the croatia were england with squad they've got the proper are
25:43better and suddenly they it's the same story it's it's it's and the same story at much greater expense
25:48and it's funny like you know given given the fa are so given to just basically borrowing ideas from
25:55other nations i mean would they have been better off olie carsley carsley played better football
25:59sorry he played better football for longer yes there was kind of big issues there like the
26:04experiments of cole palmer but given spain are about to look you would think they should have more than
26:10this argentina let's see but obviously spain have become a model to follow and they've they're doing
26:16this through a coach that england wouldn't even look at because he knows the system he knows the
26:21players he knows the idea well that's what carsley is yeah fair point i mean i'd argue england never
26:26actually came up against the team better than them they just they lost to a team slightly worse than
26:31them we will leave it there thanks rich good to see you thanks miguel we will catch up in a
26:35couple
26:36of days with both of you before you head to the world cup final which will not feature england but
26:41it
26:41will feature spain and argentina which should be a great game two teams who haven't played in the
26:45world cup since 1966 uh thank you to our producer jamie mcdonald thank you for listening and we're back
26:52in a few days bye-bye
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