00:00And there is, of course, the other question.
00:02Now that in the killing of the Kalistani separatist, Niger,
00:07the Indian government has not been named by the United States,
00:10where does this leave Canada,
00:12which just a few years ago had targeted Indian diplomats,
00:17accusing them virtually.
00:19President Justin Trudeau then, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau then of Canada,
00:23had accused Indian diplomats of being involved in some way.
00:27Well, joining me now is one of those who was involved or was targeted.
00:32India's former High Commissioner to Canada, Sanjay Verma, joins me.
00:36He was in that hot seat when this entire case blew up.
00:39Appreciate your joining us, Mr. Verma.
00:42Do you feel a sense of vindication or relief today?
00:45Because the latest charge sheet, the indictment in the Niger case,
00:49has not mentioned the Indian government's role,
00:51virtually therefore giving a clean chit for diplomats like you,
00:55who were called out during the Trudeau administration as persons of interest,
01:01suggesting that there was an Indian government role
01:03in the killing of this Kalistani separatist?
01:09Thank you for having me over.
01:11The first thing is that, you know,
01:13we had always maintained the same position right from day one,
01:16that government of India doesn't have any policy
01:18interfering with the internal affairs of any other country.
01:22And secondly, we never undertake such criminal activities.
01:26We are a responsible government,
01:28and therefore the Canada should not have been worried about anything in hand.
01:34Now that the investigation has been completed
01:38after three years of the entire course,
01:41I feel that they have reached the right conclusion
01:48as far as India's Indian nation's or Indian government's hand
01:53in any criminal activity or criminal syndicate
01:56that there have been investigators concerned.
01:58But this is something we have been telling them from day one.
02:02Whether it is a vindication or relief,
02:04I would say we have stood by our principles.
02:07We have told them right from day one what we felt.
02:10We have told them our own global position, image, and pride.
02:18So, for me, it is a finality on its way.
02:25You know, but you're calling it a sense of finality.
02:28But the fact is, remember, this is a U.S. government charge sheet.
02:31There's a case still going on in Canada,
02:33which has to come up to trial.
02:34That investigation is on.
02:36We don't know whether that will lead, where that will lead.
02:39The larger question remains.
02:41Did the Canadian government of Justin Trudeau, do you believe,
02:44target Indian officials wrongly?
02:46What did they have that led them to these conclusions?
02:50Do you believe these conclusions just came out of thin air
02:53that the Indian government was in some way involved
02:55in the killing of a Khalistani separatist in Canada?
03:02No, so initially, if we go back to the historical facts,
03:07we have always maintained that it's politically motivated
03:10and absurd claim or allegation that Indian officials
03:14or Indian diplomats have got anything to do
03:16with the killing that you were talking about.
03:19And as far as the conclusion is concerned,
03:22it is a multi-national investigation
03:25which has been carried out.
03:27And they have reached that conclusion.
03:29The killing in Canada is just a part of the entire investigation.
03:34But nevertheless, it does refer to that.
03:36And the Canadian Commissioner of RCMP
03:39as well as Deputy Commissioner of RCMP
03:41both have come out with their own statements.
03:44and the Deputy Commissioner of Canadian RCMP
03:47have clearly said that there is no indication
03:52of the government of India or its officials and diplomats
03:56being a part of any of such activities.
03:59No, but given that, do you have a message, therefore,
04:01for the Trudeau government, which of course no longer...
04:03Do you have a message for Justin Trudeau?
04:05Do you believe that the Prime Minister of...
04:08then Prime Minister of Canada got it horribly wrong
04:10in targeting you and other Indian diplomats?
04:15I wouldn't say that such statements from responsible leaders
04:20should not be issued without the completion
04:23of the entire investigation process.
04:26But, you know, let me just pivot for a moment, Mr. Verma,
04:29and ask the question,
04:30what was the motive then for Lawrence Bishnoyi,
04:33a gangster who is jailed at the moment in Sabarmati jail
04:37to kill Nijjar?
04:38Why would he or his gang kill a Sikh separatist in Canada?
04:41And that's where the questions came.
04:43Was there any involvement of the Indian deep state in some way
04:46that they wanted to kill one of India's most wanted
04:49and use the Bishnoyi gang to kill Nijjar?
04:56So, in other interviews, I've talked about it about three years back,
05:00that probably it was a culmination of a gang war.
05:06The separatist, or I would call him terrorist,
05:09he was a designated terrorist by India,
05:11he was not only active in the Guru Dara politics,
05:16he was also into the business,
05:18he was also into illegal activities.
05:20So, there was a lot at stake for criminal gangs.
05:24And I would stake the claim that he was a part of
05:28the entire criminal syndicate himself.
05:31So, most of it was something to do with
05:33the criminal gang warfare.
05:38And probably the result was his killing.
05:42No, no, so you're saying, Mr. Verma,
05:45that Nijjar was probably part of a criminal gang
05:48and that his killing was the result of a gang war rivalry
05:51in which the Indian government had absolutely no role to play.
05:54Am I correct?
05:57Absolutely right.
05:58And that is what the investigation has also pointed out.
06:01But the fact is, of course,
06:03that there is an Indian intelligence agent also
06:06who's wanted by the FBI,
06:08the chart sheet suggesting also the role of a Punjab police officer
06:13who's involved in extortion,
06:15the Indian intelligence officer in the Patwanth case
06:21in America, another Khalistani separatist.
06:24Are you saying that this agent wanted by the FBI
06:28was acting on his own, was a rogue agent,
06:31that there is zero involvement at any stage
06:33of the Indian deep state in any of these activities
06:36in taking out Khalistani's beat in the United States
06:40or in Canada?
06:43India doesn't have a deep state.
06:45It doesn't project its deep state into any other country.
06:49So, therefore, whatever the investigations are,
06:54whatever the results are,
06:55and if it is a crime which has been proven
06:58both through investigation and justice,
07:00I'm sure India being an international player...
07:02Today, I'm not speaking on behalf of the government of India.
07:05I'm an retired former diplomat.
07:07So, if you look at that,
07:09then, of course, India will do whatever is required to be done
07:13in order to prosecute a criminal.
07:15Yeah, but it's not so simple, Mr. Varma,
07:17because you will recall that Nikhil Gupta,
07:21another Indian national,
07:23has also been charged, been extradited now
07:26from Europe to America,
07:28and the allegations are that he was involved
07:30in the alleged targeting of another Sikh activist,
07:33Gurpatwan Singh Panu, who I mentioned.
07:36He's already been extradited from the United States.
07:38He's in a prison at the moment.
07:40Are you saying that none of this,
07:42whether it's a Nikhil Gupta
07:43or whether it's the intelligence agent Vikas Yadav,
07:46there were absolutely no sanctions,
07:49no role of the Indian state in any of this?
07:51This is not part of our policy at any level?
07:57Indian state has never been a part of such activities
08:02in the past,
08:02and it will remain in the future as well.
08:05I'm saying these things as an Indian citizen,
08:08concerned Indian citizen.
08:10So, there is an investigation.
08:13Let it conclude.
08:15And as I said earlier,
08:17that under the extradition treaty,
08:20India would play its role
08:23as are the provisions in the treaty.
08:27But again,
08:28this is something I'm talking about as an outsider.
08:31So, let me ask you in conclusion,
08:33you served when Trudeau was the Prime Minister of Canada.
08:36We now have a new Prime Minister there,
08:38Mark Carney.
08:39Do you believe under his government,
08:41are we seeing a distinct change
08:43between India-Canada relations,
08:45which had got severely disrupted
08:47because of these allegations
08:48made when Mr. Trudeau was the Prime Minister?
08:50Are we seeing change now?
08:53There is a distinct change.
08:55It is creeping back to normalcy,
08:58yet not back to the best years
09:02of India-Canada relationship.
09:04But it's in the right direction.
09:06It is on the track.
09:07And I hope that it prospers further.
09:10I'm going to leave it there, Sanjay Verma.
09:13As I said,
09:13this has been an extremely contentious case.
09:16We'll wait and see
09:17how it now plays out in that trial in Canada.
09:20Thank you very much
09:20for joining me on the show tonight.
09:23Let's go.
