00:00Instead of talking about the World Cup and how great it's been so far, we're talking about President Donald Trump's
00:06involvement with FIFA and getting Fuller and Balogun's red card in one game suspension rescinded.
00:12Belgium tried to appeal the decision, but nothing worked there.
00:17So what now? Ben Jacobs of Talk Sport has been all over this drama ahead of tonight's USA versus Belgium
00:24match.
00:25Ben, appreciate you hopping on with this, man.
00:27I've seen the tweets. I've been following your reports.
00:30I guess I'm just asking you, you've covered this sport for a long time.
00:35Have you ever seen a president or maybe even a prime minister step in and apply some sort of pressure
00:41on FIFA to rescind a red card or get involved in any sort of capacity?
00:47Yeah, who knows? We might see the British Prime Minister Keir Starmer now asking to overturn General Quence's red card
00:53from last night, even though I think that was a red.
00:55And that's the point here, that as soon as you mix sport and politics, you set a dangerous president.
01:00So there's two things to say here.
01:02The first is that FIFA deny any lobbying or any influence, because although there was a conversation that both Gianni
01:10Infantino and President Trump have confirmed,
01:13and this was something that I exclusively revealed yesterday, there is also the protocol to use FIFA's disciplinary committee, which
01:22is an independent panel and an autonomous body to make the final determination.
01:26So we've had Donald Trump all but explicitly take credit.
01:31We've had Ted Cruz say thank you directly to the president.
01:34And there's a reason why that World Cup trophy was in the White House for so long.
01:38So all of that strongly infers White House influence and the White House driving this.
01:43And yet the FIFA president Gianni Infantino has issued a statement making it clear that the decision was taken by
01:50an independent panel.
01:51And really, we won't know which side is the true reality unless FIFA published the written reasons for this decision.
02:01And there's almost two separate things here.
02:03The first is, was it or wasn't it a red card?
02:06And President Trump is clear he doesn't think it was.
02:09But in many ways, that's irrelevant, because once it's been given, the more pertinent question is, is there or isn't
02:16there an actual process to appeal?
02:19And if there is, then ultimately U.S. soccer and possibly the U.S. government have got a case.
02:25And yet after Flo Balogun was sent off, U.S.-based FIFA sources had told us there was no process to
02:33appeal.
02:34And originally, U.S. soccer were even exploring the possibility that they might have to go outside of FIFA to
02:39the court of arbitration for sports.
02:41Then enter the U.S. government.
02:42And my understanding is that they lobbied and that they offered legal support.
02:47And that the case has all centered around, were slow-mo replays and still images misrepresentative in leading to this
02:55red card?
02:56And yet last night with Kwanzaa, there were slow-motion replays and still images.
03:01So I come back to what I said before.
03:03Should Flo Balogun have been sent off?
03:06I don't think so.
03:07It was very similar to Leo Messi against Algeria.
03:09And he was not red carded.
03:11But once he's been sent off, is there actually a genuine FIFA appeal process?
03:17And if so, to get a red card suspended, as is the case with Balogun, why has nobody else at
03:23the tournament so far been able to use it?
03:26So this is a can of worms.
03:27It extends far beyond just can Balogun play or not.
03:31And he's going to, as it stands, because as you say, Belgium have lost their appeal.
03:35But regardless of the result, regardless of whether Balogun plays or scores, the Royal Belgian Football Association intend to challenge
03:44this.
03:45And suddenly the story has become far bigger than just Flo Balogun.
03:49So now, how does the football world view FIFA after this decision and also the USA now?
03:57Well, I feel for the USA because for Flo Balogun, he's a footballer.
04:02For his teammates, they're delighted to have him.
04:04For Maurizio Pochettino, he's been told he can play his lead striker.
04:08So he's going to, in all likelihood.
04:11And we mustn't forget the fantastic run the U.S. men's national team have had and the buzz they're creating
04:17and the impact of these role models, both on and off the field.
04:21So I don't like the idea that the president's comments or Infantino's statement or this issue can undermine what this
04:30football team have done on the field.
04:32And yet, usually, a red card is a red card.
04:36So taking away the praise for the U.S. team and empathy with the fact that the players are being
04:41dragged into politics and, again, pointing to the fact that Pochettino is fully entitled to pick a player, regardless of
04:48the scandal, if he's told they are eligible, which he has been.
04:52But the wider football community is starting to feel uncomfortable and has been for quite some time with this relationship.
05:00Not just between Gianni Infantino and President Trump, but the broader relationship between football and politics.
05:09And it was ironic in many ways that the former FIFA president, Seb Blatter, was one of the first people
05:15to call out FIFA suspending Balogun's red card.
05:19And he was the focal point of the old FIFA, what Gianni Infantino called the dirty FIFA.
05:26And suddenly we've come full circle to two presidents, a FIFA and a U.S. one, that are so closely
05:33intertwined that Infantino was late for a FIFA Congress because he was at peace talks with Donald Trump that had
05:40nothing to do with football.
05:42The World Cup draw in Washington had a FIFA prize invented so Infantino could give Trump an award after he
05:50didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize.
05:52And when you look at the backdrop of all of these mini incidents and then add this one to the
05:57mix as well, the wider football community has scrutiny, less so actually on President Trump,
06:03although that may be different in America from journalists outside of soccer, but within our football community, the fingers are
06:11being pointed at Gianni Infantino and he's done the right thing by coming out and being transparent with a statement.
06:17But ultimately, these allegations that football and politics and Infantino and Trump are too tied together are not going to
06:28go away unless in this particular case,
06:31Gianni Infantino forces the independent panel and the FIFA disciplinary commission to publish the detailed reasons of how they've come
06:40to this decision.
06:41What's the likelihood of that happening, do you feel like?
06:45Well, if the process has followed due course and there's nothing to hide and if Belgium are eventually going to
06:51get the written reasons, there should be no reason not to publish them.
06:55There may be a worry that if wider eyes are on the written reasons, it creates precedent, but that's how
07:01lawyers work.
07:01And whether they're published or not, the legal community will look at almost every red card now and wonder whether
07:07they can use this as a precedent.
07:08So what we have to be clear on here is FIFA's position is yes, there was a conversation with Trump,
07:15but no, it couldn't have influenced the process because that process is carried out by an independent panel.
07:21And if that is true and accurate and we have to be respectful and take FIFA's position at face value
07:27as well, despite what some people are inferring, the best way of them proving that is publishing the written reasons.
07:34And if they do that and they are logical and they are endorsed by lawyers and the federation agree that
07:41they wish to rescind their complaints, then this issue is over.
07:45But if we don't get written reasons and we have someone like Ted Cruz coming out today and saying congratulations
07:51to the president on removing the red card, even though technically it was suspended.
07:57And then after that, Gianni Infantino admits he spoke to Trump and we know the White House were involved in
08:04supporting U.S. soccer with their legal arguments.
08:06So when you add it all up, it's not a good look for FIFA, even though they repeatedly insist that
08:12this decision was made by an autonomous body and an independent panel.
08:16So we talk about how Belgium tried to appeal and they were denied that appeal.
08:21So let's say Flo Balogun plays tonight.
08:24He scores the game winner.
08:26U.S. beats Belgium.
08:28What options does Belgium have then?
08:34Yeah, we'll have to wait and see whether they think there's a further recourse in FIFA, because although the Royal
08:39Belgian Football Association appeal was dismissed as inadmissible, the reason why it was inadmissible is because you can't make an
08:46appeal unless you've got the written reasons.
08:48So there's a slight irony here that FIFA didn't provide the written reasons.
08:53The Royal Belgian Football Association say on record they asked for the written reasons.
08:58FIFA construed that as a formal appeal.
09:00And then they turned around and said, we're not going to give you the written reasons, but your appeal is
09:04inadmissible because you need the written reasons to make that appeal.
09:08And the whole thing, when you spell it out like that, seems utterly farcical.
09:13And this is why the Royal Belgian Football Association are so angry, because there's essentially nothing that they can do
09:19within FIFA before the game.
09:21Now, after the game, if Balogun plays, the Royal Belgian Football Association have made it clear that they consider Balogun
09:28ineligible.
09:29And they have directly told that to U.S. soccer.
09:33So U.S. soccer are aware that if they play Balogun and start Balogun, which is obviously the expectation, that
09:40there will be ramifications.
09:42One option is for the Royal Belgian Football Association to finally get the written reasons and then assess their options
09:49within the bounds of FIFA and potentially directly with another disciplinary panel.
09:55The second option, which I think is quite likely, is the Royal Belgian Football Association could go to the Court
10:02of Arbitration for Sport.
10:04And the Court of Arbitration for Sport has a committee or dispensation set up anyway to hear World Cup specific
10:12cases in an expedited manner.
10:14And the main reason for that is in case, for example, you get somebody playing an ineligible player, but less
10:22likely through this scenario.
10:24And usually the traditional case would be due to a mistake, somebody not knowing a player was suspended, fielding them.
10:32And then suddenly CAS might hear that case if FIFA can't resolve it.
10:36But the norm is actually more for drug-related cases, and it's the same for the Olympic Games, where CAS
10:43can very quickly, because they're well-equipped, determine whether in that particular scenario an athlete can still compete.
10:51So this is unprecedented territory. But in theory, the Royal Belgian Association could bypass FIFA, go to the Court of
11:00Arbitration for sports, lodge an appeal that they believe Balogun played when he was ineligible.
11:06And if CAS agree, then the natural remedy would be for the U.S. men's national team to either be
11:14disqualified, which in England, when we have cup competitions and an ineligible player is fielded, the team that didn't have
11:22the ineligible player tends to progress.
11:25But of course, U.S. soccer could dispute that. Maybe they even say the game has to be replayed.
11:31We don't know, because the reality, as UEFA put it in their very strong statement, is this particular scenario is
11:38totally unprecedented.
11:39So it will also be new legal territory for the Court of Arbitration for sports if an appeal is lodged.
11:46That's a lot to unpack right there. This entire thing has just been a mess.
11:51And it's unfortunate because it takes away from the on-the-pitch product that we've watched throughout the course of
11:57these couple of weeks of these countries battling it out on the pitch.
12:02Ben Jacobs, thank you for the reports. Thank you for your time, my man.
12:06Thanks so much and good luck to the U.S. men's national team.
12:09As I said before, it's a shame that a great squad of top characters that have done amazing so far
12:15are now heading into a game where we're not just talking about the football.
12:19And I wish the players well. But yeah, this issue is going to rumble on.
12:23Agreed. Thanks, man.
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