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Stefan Molyneux
  • 2 days ago
Philosopher Stefan Molyneux debates a listener on coming back to Jesus, where the caller claims true Christianity would protect kids.

0:00:00 The Salvation Debate
0:05:20 Christian Failure Debate
0:08:50 Scripture and Child Discipline
0:10:34 Good Samaritans and Abuse
0:12:15 The Rod Problem
0:17:20 Translation and Misinterpretation
0:19:11 Abuse Beyond Biblical Limits
0:22:50 Party Calls and Double Standards
0:24:26 Why Christianity Failed
0:29:51 Christianity Versus Real-World Change
0:36:13 Science, Progress, and Correction
0:41:01 In-Group Versus Out-Group Focus
0:43:13 Physics and Bad Actors
0:57:02 Demographic Decline and Consequences
1:01:39 Prayers, Power, and Inaction
1:10:56 The Belief Gap
1:18:27 Faith, Truth, and Departure

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Transcript
00:00:00Well, yes, hi, nice to meet you, and we're doing a rare video call-in, because you have
00:00:06more than enough hair for the both of us, most impressive, and I'm just going to zoom
00:00:12in on the books in the back there, make sure that they're approved of as a whole, and I
00:00:18am eager and keen to have the conversation, so take me where you think I should go from
00:00:24a salvation standpoint.
00:00:33I'd like to discuss your reasons for falling away from Christianity, as I believe was first
00:00:39discussed in 6331, Falling Away from God.
00:00:43You have also spoken on it numerous times since that day.
00:00:46A good number of people have called in with hopes of swaying your viewpoint, and none of
00:00:50them have managed to convince you to change your stance on leading Christianity.
00:00:55I found myself thinking about your argument concerning the fact that the Bible promotes
00:00:59the protection of children, or the least amongst us, which includes children, and that no Christian
00:01:05did anything to help you so you believe you could no longer be a Christian anymore.
00:01:12Hopefully that sums up your argument, at least for the moment.
00:01:15I didn't want to add too much more to that particular text.
00:01:19I mean, there's philosophical arguments and so on, and it's not just that people didn't
00:01:24do anything to protect me as a child, but the Christian society, when I talked in biblical
00:01:31terms about, we should put virtue above family, right, that if you're part of a crime family, you
00:01:39should consider leaving that crime family if you want to be virtuous, and if your parents
00:01:43are criminals or relentlessly abusive or something like that, which I'm no biblical scholar, but
00:01:49my understanding was Jesus said, you know, I've come to set child against father, and
00:01:53you should follow the new path, and you should, you know, if your eye offends you, plug it out.
00:01:57If people are relentless evildoers, you should shun them, and so on.
00:02:01And I also followed the biblical injunction because, of course, in telling people who are
00:02:06suffering relentless abuse as adults from their parents, I've never said, you know, just
00:02:11ditch them, you know, ghost them.
00:02:12I've always said, you know, sit down, have a conversation with them, engage with the therapist,
00:02:16which to me follows the biblical injunction of if someone wrongs you, you should sit down
00:02:20and try and work it out with them, and so on.
00:02:22So I took the indifference and sometimes hostility to the protection of children that I experienced
00:02:30in three different continents, right, in Ireland, in England, in Africa, and in Canada, so it's
00:02:37not as scattered, and these are all Christian nations.
00:02:39I mean, less so now, but certainly when I was growing up, you know, 55, just a long
00:02:44time ago, man, so yeah, like when I was growing up over half a century ago, they were very
00:02:49Christian nations, and my father, of course, was a Christian later in life and did not want
00:02:55to hear anything about what happened to me as a child, and then when I began following
00:03:02biblical injunctions regarding shunning evildoers who are unrepentant, right, while giving them
00:03:06a chance to redeem and have conversations, the Christian nations, and this would be almost
00:03:1220 years ago, the Christian nations of America and Canada and England and Ireland, if my, yeah,
00:03:22they're all published articles calling me a bad, evil, you know, cult leader who's destroying
00:03:27families for fun and profit.
00:03:28So, it wasn't just that they were indifferent to or callous regarding the suffering that
00:03:35I experienced as a child, family members who were super religious, like my aunts went
00:03:40to church many times a week, didn't do anything, and then when I sort of fought my way free and
00:03:45began applying the kind of instructions that I'd received as a Christian child, people thought
00:03:52it was horrifying and appalling, and this is after 2,000 years of Christianity, people
00:03:57still find that which Jesus commands to be abhorrent and evil, so I think that it would be time
00:04:03for a new way of approaching virtue.
00:04:08Yeah, and definitely understand that the notion of after 2,000 years, Christianity should have
00:04:19gotten its act together, definitely, that's definitely something that would probably be
00:04:26used as a counterpoint for the philosophical argument I plan to make.
00:04:30Um, I was actually, uh, going through that, uh, the video before, um, just before we got started
00:04:36and, um, noted that, so for intellectual honesty's sake, that's probably something that could very
00:04:41well be, uh, used against, uh, what I'm going to say.
00:04:44Um, and I just want to make a tiny suggestion to look at the camera.
00:04:47I know it's kind of weird because you want to look at the camera.
00:04:50I'll look at the camera and then the audience will get the eye contact with us, but sorry, go ahead.
00:04:54Okay.
00:04:55Yeah, um, sorry.
00:04:57Sorry, really, I do appreciate the call.
00:04:59Like, I do appreciate that you take things seriously, that the salvation of soul and the,
00:05:04the pursuit of virtue is important to you.
00:05:06And I, I really just want to say how much I appreciate, uh, you setting up, uh, the call
00:05:11and, and having the conversation.
00:05:12I mean, it means that you care about me, about virtue, about communicating good and evil.
00:05:17So I really do appreciate that, but so sorry, go ahead.
00:05:20Yes.
00:05:21Um, so, uh, since April, um, I, I think I've started thinking about
00:05:29uh, the, uh, the, uh, the counter-argument.
00:05:31Uh, I, I just couldn't quite shake it.
00:05:33And you might very well wipe the floor with me before I'm about to say you are the most,
00:05:36um, prolific philosopher on, on the earth.
00:05:39So, um, that's definitely, um, a point in your, your court already.
00:05:43Um, hopefully it's not a complete waste of time for either of us.
00:05:46Um, and, uh, to clarify, um, uh, for the argument, uh, I won't be making any arguments pertaining to Christian
00:05:55theology.
00:05:56Arguments for the validity of Christianity, nor the existence of God.
00:06:01Those are separate conversations.
00:06:03Um, and there are also far more qualified people than I to have discussions like that with.
00:06:09Vox Data is a good person to probably start with.
00:06:11Uh, he claims to have mathematically disproved the theory of evolution to start with.
00:06:15Um, but there's also others.
00:06:18Um, and, uh, uh, before, um, I continue on, um, for what it's worth.
00:06:25Um, I won't be making arguments pertaining to Christianity, arguments, uh, about Christian theology or the existence of God.
00:06:32Yep.
00:06:33Um, and, uh, just, just for context, uh, I've been listening to you since 2015.
00:06:38Um, we previously met, um, uh, when you came to Australia, I won't say what, uh, city it is, um,
00:06:45cause you don't, um, you know.
00:06:48Oh, I know.
00:06:49Yeah.
00:06:49Yeah.
00:06:50Yeah.
00:06:50Um, so yeah, um, it was, uh, it was one of the dinners.
00:06:55Uh, that we met at, um, when you and Lauren came, uh, and, um, I, uh, you brought Izzy along.
00:07:03I had a short conversation with her about lizards.
00:07:05It was very charming.
00:07:06Um, and I also have a couple of photos, uh, that we took at the time.
00:07:09Um, I could share them with you later if you'd like.
00:07:11Um, just go, yeah.
00:07:13Um, uh, and, um, just to, just to get the, uh, the philosophical, um, jitters out of the way.
00:07:21I've got two jokes for you to start with.
00:07:23Um, I know, long preamble.
00:07:25Uh, first joke, the public education system.
00:07:30The second joke, democracy.
00:07:35Got it.
00:07:36The punchline is death.
00:07:40Yep.
00:07:41Yes.
00:07:42Um, all right.
00:07:44Uh, so, uh, I took, uh, a number of, uh, notes.
00:07:49Um, so feel free to chime in whenever, um, things are, uh, not, um, right or you have anything you
00:07:56want to, to add.
00:07:57Um, uh, everything I've gotten here is, is just from, uh, 63, 31.
00:08:03Um, um, so, uh, I'll be, I'll begin at the, pretty much top of my notes.
00:08:13Um, in Matthew 25, 40, uh, it is written, uh, the king will reply, truly I tell you, whatever you
00:08:21did for me, uh, so whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine,
00:08:28you did for me.
00:08:28Uh, according to this verse, if his mother was abusing Stefan, uh, she was also abusing God.
00:08:34Uh, and those who did nothing about it also harmed God, uh, so they would not be following in the
00:08:40teachings of Christianity.
00:08:41Would you, uh, agree with what I'm saying so far?
00:08:45Uh, yes.
00:08:46Uh, for sure.
00:08:48Yep.
00:08:49Um, uh, Proverbs, uh, 13, 24 states, uh, those who spare the rod of discipline hate their children.
00:08:56Those who love their children care enough to discipline them.
00:08:59Um, uh, so I, I just, I just Googled this.
00:09:03Um, two paragraphs from Google AI, um, summed back to me, um, that the rod is a metaphor for guidance.
00:09:10In ancient times, the rod prefer, was referred to a shepherd's staff.
00:09:15Um, shepherds use their staffs to gently guide, protect, and steer sheep back onto the safe path and not to
00:09:22beat them.
00:09:23Um, the rod represents authority, clear direction, and boundary setting.
00:09:28Okay.
00:09:29Um, and the true meaning of discipline, uh, this is, again, just, just from Google AI.
00:09:34Um, the proverb emphasizes that failing to teach, correct, or hold children accountable will allow them to grow up without
00:09:41direction or self-discipline.
00:09:42It is an endorsement of active parenting and not violence.
00:09:47Okay.
00:09:47Um, so, uh, I agree with you on this, Steph, that, uh, the rod is not about hitting kids.
00:09:53Um, however, uh, unfortunately for what it is, uh, there are a lot of people out there that don't interpret
00:09:58it that way.
00:09:59They do interpret it as hitting children, um, which is very tragic.
00:10:04Um, you also mentioned the, uh, the parable of the Good Samaritan at 30 minutes.
00:10:09Um, in Luke 25, 37, it could be boiled down to, uh, give aid, uh, to those who are even
00:10:16your enemies, uh, when there's, uh, when those enemies are in need, or anyone is in need, really.
00:10:21Um, those Christians, uh, were not your neighbor, um, in that example.
00:10:26Because the, the man in question was asking Jesus about who was my neighbor and all that was in that,
00:10:31uh, parable.
00:10:32Um, at, uh, 39 minutes 30, uh, you stated, um, you were faced with a great mystery, one you admitted
00:10:42was not philosophical.
00:10:44Um, looking up at a cathedral, you'll wonder why Christians would spend so much time and labor on a great
00:10:50cathedral out of a love for God,
00:10:52and Jesus commands you to help the wounded, but they wouldn't make an anonymous phone call to help a child
00:10:57being beaten, dangerously beaten.
00:11:00Um, at 48 minutes, uh, Stephan stated, um, that people would work a crazy amount of hours for only a
00:11:09small amount of money,
00:11:10but wouldn't make a single anonymous tip to save a child from being beaten within earshot,
00:11:15even though it is required to do so in order to receive eternal life.
00:11:19Supporting scripture for this can be found in Matthew 7, 21 to 23.
00:11:25Uh, and I'm reading the, uh, the passage here.
00:11:28Not everyone who calls out to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven.
00:11:33Only those who actually do the will of my father in heaven will enter.
00:11:38On judgment day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in
00:11:45your name
00:11:45and perform many miracles in your name.
00:11:48But I will reply, I never knew you.
00:11:51Get away from me, you who break God's laws.
00:11:55Now, the finer points of this, uh, can be argued back and forward by theologians, you know, over and over
00:12:01and over again.
00:12:02Um, and that's outside of the scope of, uh, this particular discussion.
00:12:06Um, but, um, yeah, again, just stating a couple of things, um, that you've, you've stated.
00:12:12Um, and feel free to chime in any time as well, Steph.
00:12:16Yeah, I mean, I understand the rod is supposed to be the shepherd's staff and so on.
00:12:21There are things that are a bit dicey, uh, in the Bible because it says in Proverbs 23, 13, 14,
00:12:30do not withhold discipline from a child.
00:12:32If you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
00:12:36Punish them with the rod and save them from death or shale.
00:12:40A folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far
00:12:45away.
00:12:46Discipline your children for in that there is hope.
00:12:48Do not be a willing party to their death.
00:12:52So do not withhold discipline from a child.
00:12:54If you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
00:12:57And that indicates physical punishment.
00:12:59That is not just guidance, right?
00:13:01Because nobody says, if you get a lecture, your kid won't die.
00:13:04But it means that, uh, the corporal punishment is preferable to the death of the child, uh,
00:13:12as far as I sort of would, uh, would understand it.
00:13:15So I think that's kind of important as far as that goes.
00:13:20And the other thing too, of course, is that God is all-knowing and God inspired the Bible.
00:13:25And so God, we assume, inspires the translation.
00:13:28Like it would be pretty tough to be bound to like the new James version or the new international
00:13:33version.
00:13:34Um, it would be kind of tough to be bound by that if it was human interpretation that distanced
00:13:40the word of God from the ears of mankind.
00:13:44So we assume that God's all-knowing, he knows, God knows how people are going to interpret
00:13:51the word rod, right?
00:13:53Whoever spares the rod hates their children, uh, discipline, uh, don't, if you punish them
00:13:58with the rod, they will not die.
00:14:00Uh, God knew ahead of time how people were going to interpret the word rod.
00:14:06And he could have said, do not withhold wisdom from a child.
00:14:09Whoever spares wisdom hates their children, uh, careful to give them wisdom.
00:14:13But he says the rod of discipline and knowing that human beings are prone to violence, knowing
00:14:19that human beings are prone to taking things literally.
00:14:23And so I still charge God with the word rod being interpreted as a physical, a stick or,
00:14:31or some sort of implement to hit a children with because God could have used the word wisdom
00:14:36or teaching or, uh, morality or faith.
00:14:40Uh, but no, he used the word rod and talked about, punish them with the rod.
00:14:44They're not going to die from it, right?
00:14:46Which indicates physical beatings.
00:14:49So we can say, well, uh, Christians have misinterpreted the word rod, but God knew that they would.
00:14:54So he should have used a different word.
00:14:58Yeah.
00:14:59Um, and I, I can't argue on God's behalf on that.
00:15:03Um, I, I definitely, um, admit this is probably going to be one of the, the points that may,
00:15:12uh, indeed poke some holes in my, uh, my counter argument, which I haven't quite gotten to yet.
00:15:16Um, um, again, this is, I mean, if, if, if, if I claim to be the best translator in the
00:15:27world,
00:15:27I can translate Japanese to English with perfect fidelity.
00:15:33And I translate a book of instruction on children, how to, how to be a parent.
00:15:39I translate a parenting book and everyone who reads my parenting book that I translated from Japanese.
00:15:46And in the Japanese, it says loving wisdom.
00:15:48And I translate it to hit with a stick.
00:15:52And people then say, well, the book, uh, the loving wisdom in the book actually means hit with a stick,
00:15:58uh, beat them and not excessively.
00:15:59Right.
00:16:00Because of course the Bible does say, um, that you shouldn't go too far.
00:16:05Like fathers do not embitter your children, although they will become discouraged.
00:16:08So, you know, some, right.
00:16:10So if I'm the best translator in the world and I translate loving wisdom and everyone gets
00:16:16in English, hit the children with sticks.
00:16:19Am I a good translator?
00:16:21I don't think so.
00:16:22And God is all knowing, all good and knows exactly how the words are going to be interpreted.
00:16:28So saying that, well, people are misinterpreting it.
00:16:31It's like, if I'm a translator and everyone, or at least a lot of the population gets my
00:16:37translation to be the opposite of what I say, I then can't also say that I'm a good translator,
00:16:41but God can't be bad at anything because he's all knowing and all good and all powerful.
00:16:45So it's just a paradox, if that makes sense.
00:16:50Yeah, um, and I, I, I was thinking about that when I was, um, watching the, uh, the video
00:16:59back, um, and, um, I'll be frank, I don't have a counter argument to, to that particular
00:17:08claim for all that's worth.
00:17:09I'm being as intellectually honest as I can about this.
00:17:11Um, uh, it's, um, there may be other people who can have that conversation.
00:17:18I, I, yeah, I just, I just don't have a particular counter argument.
00:17:21And of course, some people say, and I appreciate that some people say it's culturally contextual
00:17:26for ancient times, but I don't think that gives a good answer.
00:17:34Uh, you know, there's some biblical verses that people can interpret to be, you know, treat
00:17:39your slaves well, as opposed to slavery is evil.
00:17:41And they say, well, yes, but slavery was more accepted back then, but that's not really an
00:17:46option.
00:17:47Like if somebody were to put out a manual in the West of how to treat your slaves well,
00:17:51that would be pretty bad.
00:17:53And God, of course, has infinitely more knowledge than we have in the modern world about just
00:17:58about anything.
00:17:59And so God doesn't get the excuse of, well, it was, you know, misinterpreted at the time
00:18:03or there was a mistranslation or things like that, because that's not reasonable.
00:18:09Like if I, if I translate Japanese laws, right.
00:18:13And I give them out, uh, I give a booklet of Japanese laws out and I'm endorsed by the
00:18:19Japanese government and so on.
00:18:20And in the Japanese laws, it says, you know, urinate on homeless people, uh, steal like crazy
00:18:26and punch a cheerleader.
00:18:28And then people go and do that kind of stuff.
00:18:30Um, that's sort of my fault, isn't it?
00:18:34For giving them bad instructions.
00:18:36So, uh, God has to give you good instructions.
00:18:38And if the majority of Christians hit their children and view it as endorsed by the Bible,
00:18:46that's on God for providing that information.
00:18:49It is not up to people to try and figure out what seems non-obvious.
00:18:56If God has provided a translation that can be very, very easily misinterpreted, um, I think
00:19:02that's on, on God, but you see, here's the thing too.
00:19:06And we can certainly talk about the corporate punishment thing.
00:19:08That's not my foundational issue.
00:19:11Uh, so we can bypass the corporate punishment.
00:19:14If I had simply been spanked from time to time, uh, I would not have, uh, this particular
00:19:19issue.
00:19:20I would say, you know, well, I can kind of get it that the problem is that, you know,
00:19:24the, the level of abuse and violence was so extreme and so obvious to hundreds and hundreds
00:19:29of people over the course of my childhood, that even if we were to say, well, it says
00:19:33spare the rod, spoil the child.
00:19:35It certainly does say, and I will agree with you completely there in the Bible.
00:19:39It says, yeah, but not too much.
00:19:41Like, and it was clearly too much.
00:19:43Like, I mean, it was clearly, uh, too much to the point where I was running away at the
00:19:47age of four or so.
00:19:48And so, uh, and so everyone can hear that it was too much.
00:19:51So even if we say, which I'm, I'm fine to, you know, we don't have to spend too much time
00:19:56on the corporate punishment thing, unless you want to, of course, it's fine.
00:19:58But, uh, even if we say the corporate punishment thing is acceptable, we still do have the challenge
00:20:05that all the Christians around me, uh, heard and knew about the degree of violence in my
00:20:11household, which clearly would be excessive even by biblical standards.
00:20:15And, and so I did, uh, my issue wasn't, well, I got spanked once a month, you know, lightly
00:20:21and I had it explained to me and, and therefore, you know, Christians are not following their
00:20:26virtues.
00:20:27I would say, well, I disagree with those virtues, but at least Christians were following them.
00:20:30But it was the level of violence and the excess nature of the violence that, uh, not only
00:20:36did they not intervene, but also I was punished for it.
00:20:40Like I couldn't do any homework.
00:20:41It was so violent at home.
00:20:42There was so much chaos and, and so on that, uh, I got, you know, threatened with being
00:20:48held back a year.
00:20:49I got, uh, punished.
00:20:50I got detentions, which was tough because I had to work a job since I was 10 years old
00:20:54to help pay for the bills.
00:20:56So not only was it excess relative to the Bible, but I also received no sympathy for
00:21:02that excess and also was punished for things vastly beyond my control.
00:21:05And again, this is in a wide variety of schools.
00:21:07If it was just one school, like you could say it was a bad school or whatever it is, but
00:21:10I
00:21:11went to public school, private schools.
00:21:13Uh, I went to school briefly in Scotland.
00:21:15I went to a daycare in Ireland and England.
00:21:18I went to different schools in England.
00:21:19I went to a variety of different schools in Canada and then a variety of different universities.
00:21:26Now we can say by the university age, that's sort of a different matter and people aren't
00:21:29quite as responsible.
00:21:30I'm not under the control of my mother in the same way.
00:21:33But then of course, when I went public, uh, I received a more, uh, abuse and attacks and
00:21:38slander and so on.
00:21:40So I, I agree with you that we can look at corporate punishment as potentially justified
00:21:46or not justified, but the excess level of it was something that, uh, Christians themselves
00:21:52would recognize.
00:21:53And it was in the Bible to say, uh, this is wrong and bad and still, uh, nothing.
00:22:00Yeah.
00:22:00Yeah.
00:22:01Yeah.
00:22:01Um, and, um, it's, it, it definitely was a, a huge, um, uh, travesty, uh, a miscarriage
00:22:12of justice, um, and, uh, just, um, turning a blind eye to the suffering, uh, that you experienced,
00:22:21um, uh, it was, um, it's terrible.
00:22:24And punishing me for the effects, right?
00:22:26Yep.
00:22:27Yes.
00:22:28Yes.
00:22:28Um, being, being punished again for having being beaten, uh, and being abused, um, for
00:22:34not really doing anything wrong in the first place.
00:22:37Um, so I, I could probably keep going down the list.
00:22:44Um, I believe, um, okay.
00:22:46Um, so, uh, uh, at an hour and three minutes 30.
00:22:53Uh, when you were a teenager, uh, you had a house party, uh, and had the cops called
00:22:58on you three separate times.
00:23:00Yep.
00:23:01Um, despite, uh, you being very respectful to the surrounding homes, uh, the notion that
00:23:07the, uh, Christians would call the police on a teenager's house party that.
00:23:11I'm sorry.
00:23:12It was in an apartment, uh, building.
00:23:15So yeah, I just wanted to mention it wasn't so loud that the neighbors in my, and I was,
00:23:19I grew up very poor.
00:23:19So we were in an apartment building and the cops came three times and said, I don't know
00:23:23why people keep calling me.
00:23:25It's really not that loud, but sorry, go ahead.
00:23:26Okay.
00:23:27All right.
00:23:28Thanks for that.
00:23:29Um, that, uh, yeah, so that you weren't breaking any laws.
00:23:32It wasn't too loud.
00:23:33Like you weren't smashing windows or anything.
00:23:35Um, you weren't like urinating in the, in the, in the hallways of the apartment building
00:23:41or anything like that, um, uh, uh, notion that they would call the cops on you.
00:23:48Um, I wouldn't do anything about you being, uh, abused when you were a child, even though
00:23:55that's something that we should do as Christians.
00:23:57Um, we've been like people like myself, obviously I'm a Christian and, um, and, uh, people who
00:24:03would otherwise identify themselves as Christians.
00:24:05Although identifying as Christians is a bit, uh, I mean, it's no more, perhaps, um, ultimately
00:24:14this is, this is why you, you said here anyways, why you gave up on Christianity.
00:24:19Perhaps it was like the thing that eventually made you realize, oh, this isn't, this isn't
00:24:23working.
00:24:23I need to try something else.
00:24:24Is that correct?
00:24:26I mean, there were intellectual reasons, philosophical reasons, but I think one of the reasons
00:24:31why I was open to those philosophical reasons is if something has had over, well, it wasn't
00:24:39quite 2000 years, of course, when I was a kid, let's say I was born in 1966.
00:24:44So if an ethos has had 2000 years to work, to protect children.
00:24:52And of course I've done, you know, the bomb in the brain series, and I've done all of the,
00:24:56here's what we need to do to protect children, to have a better life in a better world.
00:25:00And there's really no other way to do it.
00:25:01And so if an ethos has had almost 2000 years in which to protect children, and it doesn't
00:25:08protect children, and it calls the authorities only when the child is having fun, not when
00:25:15the child is being abused.
00:25:18And then the Christian society attacks someone who aims to protect at least adult children
00:25:25from ongoing abuse or give them the option to not be in the relationship.
00:25:28And of course, I was always taught, thou shalt not bear false witness.
00:25:32The society attacks me for talking about IQ.
00:25:35The society attacks me for talking about the voluntary family.
00:25:38The society attacks me for talking about child abuse.
00:25:41The society attacks me for reminding people that they should tell their parents the truth.
00:25:47If your parents, I've always said, like, if your parents did things that hurt you, you should
00:25:50be honest about that.
00:25:51And you should tell them and try and work it out.
00:25:53Which seems to me to fall entirely into honor their mother and their father, because when
00:25:57you lie to your parents, you're not honoring them.
00:25:59Honoring people is telling the truth.
00:26:01Thou shalt not bear false witness and holding people morally accountable.
00:26:06Because if God says, treat your children gently, then child abusers are going to go to hell unless
00:26:11they repent.
00:26:11And so, when I tell, even within the Christian context, when I tell children, you should, adult
00:26:18children, you should go and talk to your parents if they abused you or were violent or destructive,
00:26:24assuming it's physically safe, you should do that so that they have the chance to repent.
00:26:30Because if you hide sins from people, you also remove from them the feedback they need in order
00:26:37to repent.
00:26:38So, it seems to me that even though I'm an atheist, according to Christian values, I was
00:26:43doing the Lord's work.
00:26:44And I got shamed, attacked, abused, humiliated, and so on.
00:26:49And then eventually deplatformed, although I think that was more for politics than that
00:26:53stuff.
00:26:55And churches did not say, no, no, he's correct.
00:26:59Churches did not, I did not get conversations with priests.
00:27:02They did not invite me to come and talk to their congregation.
00:27:04They did not give me aid and succor while I was under a ferocious attack by just about
00:27:10all the powers.
00:27:10I mean, I was on the front page of the New York Times three times, you know, so there
00:27:14was quite a lot that was going on.
00:27:16And I was on the front page of the New York Times because I was considered to be a bad
00:27:20guy for intervening with a guy who was actually in a pretty dangerous cult and he ended up quitting.
00:27:27And there's another guy who got a job and a girlfriend and so on and got out of a negative
00:27:33situation and Christians did not at all intervene or give me sort of aid or comfort or any kind
00:27:42of support.
00:27:43I was very much left on my own telling people, thou shalt not bear false witness, honor their
00:27:48mother and the father with the truth and save people from their sins and child abuse is wrong.
00:27:55This is all in accordance with how I understood the Bible to be and Christians didn't want to
00:27:59have any part of it.
00:28:01And this was a worldwide phenomenon, like I was written about negatively on most continents.
00:28:06And so people can't claim to not know about these things.
00:28:09I mean, millions and millions of Christians read these allegations and it wasn't even pointed
00:28:15out in the newspapers that I was an atheist or anything like that.
00:28:18And so, you know, when you're under fire, you notice who your friends and enemies are and
00:28:26then you notice those who are indifferent.
00:28:29And so it was a sort of multi-dimensional social experiment in a way to see if Christians
00:28:38believed what they say they believe.
00:28:41And if you bear false witness and if you betray people who are doing good, I mean, by Christian
00:28:48standards, I was doing good.
00:28:50And if you are told you'll go to hell, if you betray virtuous men and women, and you'll
00:28:57go to heaven if you support them, and still that's not enough.
00:29:02It's not enough.
00:29:03If you hear children being abused, all you have to do is make one anonymous phone call to the
00:29:07authorities and you've done the right thing.
00:29:10It's not, it doesn't put you in any danger.
00:29:12It doesn't put you in any risk whatsoever.
00:29:14And even the threat of hell and the promise of heaven isn't enough for people to pay,
00:29:19take a 20 second phone call saying, I live at this address, some kids being abused, uh,
00:29:24and it's brutal and you come, come check on them.
00:29:26No, no, no.
00:29:27It's only when I'm having a party, then they want to call the authorities and, and get me
00:29:30dealt with.
00:29:31And so if that is a state of Christianity, uh, 2000 years after its founding, uh, you know,
00:29:38I, maybe this is sort of the business side of me or the more practical side of me.
00:29:42It's like, if, uh, uh, if someone's had 2000 years to get something right and they're still
00:29:47getting egregiously wrong, I think a different approach is needed, if that makes sense.
00:29:52Yeah.
00:29:52Um, and, uh, it may sound cynical.
00:29:56I, I don't believe like as, as speaking as a Christian, um, it, it sounds, this may sound
00:30:03bad, but it's not really the goal of Christianity to fix society and it's, um, um,
00:30:12uh, it, because we, we, we're all, we're all living within the, um, within, within the
00:30:19world, um, and the, uh, we, we believe in, uh, principalities of, of evil, um, and, uh,
00:30:27different, um, basically not, not, not, not everyone is going to, uh, necessarily agree
00:30:35with us.
00:30:35And it's always going to be an uphill battle is more or less what we believe as
00:30:38Christians.
00:30:40Um, and we don't, um, I think at the end of the day, we, we try to do our, um,
00:30:51I think
00:30:51we try to do our best, um, although many, many Christians admitted that did not do their
00:30:56best, but I think many of those people were not truly Christians.
00:30:58Um, I think they, they may have worn the, the badge of Christianity more than, um, uh,
00:31:06more than truly believing.
00:31:08Um, but you're probably going to talk about your aunts next, I imagine maybe.
00:31:13No, no, that's, that's fine.
00:31:14I mean, but if after 2000 years, people can't do the right thing, I think we need a different
00:31:20approach to virtue.
00:31:21If the threat of hell and the reward of heaven is not enough to move people to do the right
00:31:26thing, we need another approach.
00:31:29If something hasn't worked for 2000 years.
00:31:31And of course, you know, the way that Australia is going and Europe is going and North America
00:31:35is going and so on.
00:31:36Uh, and what is Christianity, but an effort to protect when it's in the West and effort
00:31:43to protect the West.
00:31:43It's also failing on that.
00:31:44You, you see what the Pope is saying about various things is absolutely appalling.
00:31:48And so I like the ideals, like a lot of the ideals in Christianity.
00:31:56Um, but Christians don't Christian much.
00:32:01Yep.
00:32:02Right.
00:32:02And so, okay.
00:32:03So maybe it's an impossible standard.
00:32:05Maybe people don't really believe it.
00:32:06Maybe in the hurly burly of daily life, the abstractions of heaven and hell and angels
00:32:10and demons and so on kind of fall away.
00:32:13And we just need a different approach.
00:32:17And I can sort of go into why I think that other than the sort of empirical stuff, but no,
00:32:21I, I, I don't, I don't condemn, uh, my aunts.
00:32:27I don't condemn, uh, my father who, um, became a staunch Christian later on in his life, but
00:32:32still didn't want to hear about any of my childhood experiences.
00:32:35And I died without contacting me to even say that he was unwell and so on, because I guess
00:32:41what I had to say to him was unpleasant to him.
00:32:43And so he took a bit of a, uh, hedonistic or in my view, sort of cowardly way out.
00:32:50But to me, it's like, if everybody's failing a belief system, I don't blame the individuals
00:32:59for failing the belief system.
00:33:01It's sort of like, uh, to, I know that Christianity and communism are kind of natural enemies.
00:33:04So I don't mean to insult Christianity in this way, but it's kind of like if Christian, if
00:33:09communism says, well, all you have to do is be a human being who doesn't respond to incentives
00:33:14and doesn't care about profit and is willing to work twice as hard for less money.
00:33:18Like all you have to be is the opposite of a human being and things will be fine.
00:33:23I mean, people don't really believe, uh, that, uh, deep down that they can't achieve
00:33:27it.
00:33:27So I don't condemn people for failing the ideals of communism because they're impossible
00:33:35to fulfill.
00:33:36And I don't fault people since there were no Christians who did the right thing.
00:33:44I'm pushing 60 and it's never really happened.
00:33:46Like, honestly, I I'm pushing and I'm not putting you in this category because I appreciate
00:33:50having this conversation, but I'm pushing 60 and I have yet to have Christians say, you
00:33:56know what, you're really reminding us of the virtues and values.
00:33:59You're obviously not religious, but you're doing quite a bit that is positive, helpful,
00:34:03and courageous in the world.
00:34:05And, uh, you are reminding us of the virtues and values that we let drift from us.
00:34:10And, you know, we would like to support you in what it is that you're doing and so on.
00:34:15Right.
00:34:15And I mean, my book, peaceful parenting, um, Christians could be talking about it in their
00:34:21sermons and so on and saying, look, this is a way to bring productive, healthy wisdom
00:34:26to children so that you don't have to use violence against them.
00:34:29And surely nonviolence is better than violence when it comes to parenting.
00:34:32And I've got the proof.
00:34:33I've got the science.
00:34:34I've got the facts.
00:34:34I've got the reason I've got the evidence.
00:34:36I've got myself as a parent and my daughter who you met.
00:34:39And so I don't really blame my aunts or my father or other Christians that I've known.
00:34:47I just note that it doesn't work in the same way.
00:34:49I don't blame people for the economics of communism or socialism not working.
00:34:55Like it can't, it can't work.
00:34:57And so it is not any sense of hostility.
00:35:02In fact, I feel quite a bit of sympathy towards people who have belief systems that they simply
00:35:08cannot manifest.
00:35:10And I've always tried to give people practical philosophical approaches that they can manifest.
00:35:14So it's not hostility and it's not any kind of contempt or negativity.
00:35:19It's just like, can we just admit that this doesn't work?
00:35:23And can we not look at a different approach?
00:35:29Yeah.
00:35:30And as to your point on it not working, clearly something has failed.
00:35:39Um, and, um, as far as the work that you've done, um, you've, um, estimated what approximately
00:35:46a billion, uh, assaults have not happened on children.
00:35:50Um, rough and rough, yeah, it's, it's a lot.
00:35:52Yeah.
00:35:53Um, yeah.
00:35:54So, um, definitely I, I don't, um, I don't agree.
00:35:57Sorry, I don't disagree, uh, on the, um, on the, uh, the logic concerning universally
00:36:02preferable behavior.
00:36:03Whenever I've, I've heard you speaking about it, I don't, um, I couldn't find it.
00:36:07I don't find any flaws in it.
00:36:08Um, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that it's, it's God's logic.
00:36:14Um, maybe I'm not making a categorical statement on that.
00:36:18Um, uh, it's just, um, that I, I think that, um, the, the big problem, and I'm, I'm going
00:36:30to get into my philosophical kind of point now, um, which, uh, may very well, uh, just
00:36:37be, uh, or already have been, um, disproven by what you've said, but I'll, I'll state it
00:36:41anyway.
00:36:42Um, the, what would you say that the, um, the, the main point of failure, um, was, would you,
00:36:55I think, um, sorry, let me put this in the way, the God's, uh, commandments, uh, were laid
00:37:06out, um, and some of them were up to, uh, a bit of interpretation, definitely, um, and you
00:37:13should put that down to differences of language, um, or perhaps, uh, the, the right word was
00:37:19not used, um, or a, a word, a word that we interpret differently is, is not, uh, is not
00:37:27doing, uh, what it should have been doing, um, back then.
00:37:30Um, I, I, I just, I think, um, that the, the, the inherent flaw was ultimately the
00:37:43people because everything else was shored up by other, uh, other doctrine within, within
00:37:51the faith.
00:37:52Um, and I think you could apply this to any other discipline.
00:37:56Um, take, take any discipline you like.
00:38:00I've got a list of things here if you'd like, but think, think, think of any other
00:38:03discipline, uh, intellectual or, or practical that you like, and we'll talk, anything aside
00:38:10from religion or philosophy for the moment.
00:38:15Sorry, I can't hear you.
00:38:17Sorry, do you mean something like science?
00:38:20Sure.
00:38:20Sure.
00:38:21Sure.
00:38:22I mean, science, uh, has failures.
00:38:25Science as a discipline has failures, but it also has disproofs and the people who fail
00:38:30consistently at science, uh, do end up, uh, usually bombing out of science unless the government
00:38:35is taking and creating a sort of protected enclave and like this, uh, stuff that happens
00:38:40with physics, super strength theory never goes anywhere.
00:38:42The MRNA mystery DNA goop, uh, that was all government stuff.
00:38:47So yeah, people fail for sure.
00:38:49I mean, in the free market, most businesses fail.
00:38:53And, uh, if you go out and ask a girl, uh, most times she doesn't end up being your wife
00:38:58for life.
00:38:59So, so yeah, definitely things fail, people fail, uh, and that's natural, but where's
00:39:06the correcting mechanism, right?
00:39:08Where's the corrective mechanism?
00:39:09So, uh, if you have a government institution, then that government institution can't ever really
00:39:18fail unless the whole economy collapses.
00:39:19Which of course, eventually it does because people are forced to pay for government schools.
00:39:24They're often forced to attend government schools.
00:39:26You can't fire teachers.
00:39:28Uh, they don't care about what the kids want because it's there for, uh, the teachers, not
00:39:32for the kids and so on.
00:39:33And so where is the point of failure where things change?
00:39:41And yeah, of course people fail and, uh, institutions fail and, uh, human beings fail.
00:39:47And we all, we all have our biases and, uh, confirmation biases and so on for sure.
00:39:53But if you look at the progress of the free market, just over 150 years or 200 years, you
00:40:00know, you've seen the graph and the flat line of a dollar a day for people.
00:40:04And then, you know, industrial revolution, agricultural industry goes through the roof.
00:40:07If you look at the progress in technology, you know, we went from a half century plus just
00:40:14flying at Kitty Hawk for a couple of hundred feet, uh, to fly into the moon and back and
00:40:19so on.
00:40:20The technology that allows us to have these conversations.
00:40:22So we literally could drill through the center of the world and, and, you know, we'd probably
00:40:26pop up at each other's basement.
00:40:28And so all of that technology has had remarkable, plus science, um, has had remarkable progress.
00:40:33Medicine has had enormous progress.
00:40:35Uh, up until the late 19th century, you were better off not seeing a doctor because you'd
00:40:40probably, he'd do something that would have you not survive.
00:40:43So if you sort of look at progress as a whole, there has been in many disciplines, remarkable
00:40:51progress in more fact, reason, and evidence-based disciplines.
00:40:56Religion is not a fact, reason, and evidence-based, uh, discipline.
00:41:00And that's sort of one aspect.
00:41:01The other aspect, I was just thinking about this today, and this is like fresh off the press,
00:41:06so it may be complete nonsense, but I'm sure you've seen that heat map, you know, like
00:41:10in-group preferences versus out-group preferences.
00:41:13You know, the people on the left, they, they care much more about strangers than they do
00:41:17about their own family, friends, family, society, community, or, or country.
00:41:23And I think some of that comes from religion.
00:41:26I know that a lot of people on the left aren't particularly religious, but I think a lot of
00:41:29that comes from religion.
00:41:30And I was sort of thinking of an analogy, knowing that analogies are not proof, but they're
00:41:34quite illustrative.
00:41:35When I think about somebody who works as a EMT, an EMT, like works in an ambulance, right?
00:41:42And he's got like three, the driver and some other guy in the ambulance, the three in the
00:41:46ambulance, when they go to a big car crash, a bunch of cars have crashed, you know, they
00:41:50leap out of the ambulance and they go and take care of the strangers.
00:41:54They don't take care of the people in the ambulance because the people in the ambulance
00:41:58are kind of already fine, right?
00:42:00Assuming that they're not injured themselves, which they wouldn't be.
00:42:02And so I think for Christianity, they say, or Christians will say, well, our community,
00:42:10if we have a Christian country, our community is fine because it's already Christian.
00:42:13But what we want to do is we want to go to the third world or Africa.
00:42:17We want to go to other places and we want to convert people because they're the ones
00:42:21who are going to hell or at least not getting into heaven because they haven't received the
00:42:25good news of Jesus and so on.
00:42:26And so one of the things that's quite confusing about Christian societies is the degree to which
00:42:32they are out-group focused.
00:42:35And the heat map is like, we really care about the out-group.
00:42:38We don't care as much about the in-group.
00:42:40Now, again, I know conservatives are more in-group, but leftists are more out-group.
00:42:43But leftism, certainly Christianity was the father of leftism because it emerged out of
00:42:48Christian culture.
00:42:51And so I think another problem is that Christians like EMTs focus on the wounded, not on the healthy.
00:42:58And that means that they have a real focus on converting non-Christians more so than protecting
00:43:04Christians, if that makes sense.
00:43:06And I think that that goes a long way towards explaining some of the stuff that's going on
00:43:09in the West at the moment.
00:43:13Yeah, in my experience, I think, at least in my church and maybe in my church, is kind
00:43:19of unique in this, is that we have a very good, we have a pretty big emphasis on building
00:43:27up and maintaining the people who are currently in and growing them in their faith.
00:43:35So I think that...
00:43:40Why do you think, I know you're not Catholic, or I don't think you're Catholic, sorry to
00:43:44interrupt, why do you think the Pope is pro-migrant, pro-Muslim, and so on?
00:43:49I mean, that seems quite...
00:43:50I mean, he is the giant lever that moves millions, hundreds of billions of Christians.
00:43:55And what's your theory as to why he is that way?
00:44:00It could be that he's ideologically captured.
00:44:02It could be that he is not actually a Christian at all.
00:44:08And that's a hell of a claim to make, to be clear.
00:44:11But if we look back throughout history, a lot of the popes who got into power, they were
00:44:23having affairs, they were plotting political assassinations, they were trying people for
00:44:31ridiculous offences, a lot of dirty politics going on there.
00:44:37So, you know, when somebody gets in and is able to be ideologically captured or ideologically
00:44:44captured the organisation, it doesn't...
00:44:48It still doesn't undermine the foundational principles of the religion itself.
00:44:54You would look at the...
00:44:56Again, so I'm trying not to use religion within my argument here.
00:45:02So, let's go back to science, right?
00:45:05And let's get into physics, let's say.
00:45:10When a physicist looks at, you know, whatever problem he's trying to solve, and if he has
00:45:19to use this particular material for this particular object he's trying to get to fly, and he has
00:45:31to use this particular type of fuel, and then he cheaps out and he uses something else, and
00:45:37that gets the pilot killed, for example, we wouldn't look at the notion of physics and say, well, physics
00:45:49failed the pilot here.
00:45:51We would look at...
00:45:54We would look at the particular physicist who made the...
00:45:59Who made that error, or perhaps did so intentionally, that ultimately got that person killed.
00:46:08And this is the crux of my argument, which, feel free to wipe the floor with me, but if the
00:46:19users
00:46:20of whatever the discipline are, are using the discipline in a way that caused harm or was against
00:46:31the teachings of that discipline, maybe it requires a purge, it requires reform, maybe they have
00:46:37to expel bad actors, what have you.
00:46:40But ultimately, it appears to me irrational to abandon the discipline entirely.
00:46:45The principles of whatever the discipline is, they should be scrutinized, they should be
00:46:54found either wanting or found to be held up to be true, and then from there we can discuss
00:47:04the validity of that particular discipline.
00:47:06And again, this goes back to Christianity, but again, the particular aspects of Christianity
00:47:12are outside of the scope of this conversation.
00:47:14There are better people than me to have that conversation with.
00:47:22So, again, I believe that the biggest fault was the misinterpretation.
00:47:31And you've argued that God would have known that people would misinterpret things because
00:47:39he's outside of matter, space, and time, and he can observe these sorts of things.
00:47:43Yeah.
00:47:46And perhaps I'm just putting on my speculation hat for a moment here.
00:47:51It's perhaps God saw that and said, well, this is going to be the best outcome because
00:47:56if I put my finger on the dial anymore, other bad things would happen.
00:48:02And ultimately, I don't want to do that to my creation.
00:48:04I don't want them to act out of fear.
00:48:05I want them to act out of love.
00:48:07Again, not trying to put words in God's mouth.
00:48:09This is just a thought I'm having.
00:48:12I wouldn't want to commit sacrilegial heresy and get a bad name for it or give God a bad
00:48:21name either.
00:48:24I want to make sure that you finish your thought.
00:48:27Yes.
00:48:28Okay.
00:48:28I mean, it's a very interesting argument, and I certainly appreciate it.
00:48:32We don't throw the baby out at the bathwater.
00:48:34We have bad scientists.
00:48:35We don't throw out science as a whole.
00:48:37We have bad accountants.
00:48:38We don't throw out accountancy.
00:48:40And so I get all of that.
00:48:42There are bad doctors.
00:48:43That doesn't mean that we abandon health or medicine.
00:48:45I get all of that.
00:48:51However, Christianity is a way of trying to teach people to be good.
00:48:55Now, if there was an engineering university that produced people consistently bad at engineering,
00:49:04we wouldn't get rid of the engineering principles.
00:49:08We would get rid of that school, and we would say, this school is bad.
00:49:13So if the goal of Christianity is to have people be brave, do good, be honest, and protect
00:49:19the children and the helpless and so on, then saying Christianity is failing is not saying,
00:49:26well, then we shouldn't try to be good and be honest and so on, right?
00:49:30We would say, this way of getting people to be good is not working.
00:49:33So if a particular engineering school has had a monopoly on education and it has consistently
00:49:44produced engineers where all the bridges fall down and all the buildings fall down and the
00:49:48sewage explodes and all of that, then we would say not that we don't want good bridges or
00:49:53buildings or sewage that works.
00:49:55We would say this way of getting people to be good engineers doesn't work.
00:50:00So I agree with you, but you can't say the school is perfect, everyone's just failing
00:50:06the school.
00:50:07The school teaches well, even though all the engineers, their bridges fall down, their
00:50:12buildings fall down and the sewage explodes and the electricity short circuits and takes
00:50:16out legions of children in the schools and, right?
00:50:19We can't say, no, no, no.
00:50:20The engineering principles that are being taught and the way it's being taught is perfect.
00:50:25It's just everyone's failing to maintain the wonderful standards and so on, right?
00:50:31We would say that that school is not working.
00:50:33Like, and if there's another school where engineers are coming out that are better and
00:50:39more consistent, so on, we'd say, okay, well, the problem isn't the principles of engineering
00:50:43and a bad engineering school blaming and saying, well, you don't want to throw out bad engineer.
00:50:48You don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
00:50:49You don't want to throw out all engineering principles just because you're calling us bad
00:50:54at training engineers, it's like, that's kind of a dodge.
00:50:56No, the fact is that I think that part of the purpose of Christianity is to teach people
00:51:01to be good because you can't be close to God and you can't get to heaven without being
00:51:05good.
00:51:05The purpose of Christianity is not to just have people have faith.
00:51:09The purpose of Christianity is for people to actually do good works in the world.
00:51:13And my experience and the experience of what you're going through in Australia and other
00:51:17places is that it's not working.
00:51:19The children are not being particularly protected.
00:51:21In fact, they're still being quite harmed that the Christian subservience of the government.
00:51:26And of course, you can look at if people have an issue with, say, migrancy into America,
00:51:32it is the churches that are taking hundreds of billions of dollars from the government to
00:51:36resettle migrants in the West.
00:51:39You know how that works out?
00:51:41Well, I've argued it's not going to work out particularly well, to put it mildly.
00:51:45But the churches are deeply, deeply essential, involved in, and easily paid for that process.
00:51:53So that's the other thing.
00:51:54The other thing, too, of course, is that if an engineer uses shoddy materials and the bridge
00:51:59falls down and people fall to their death, what happens?
00:52:02They get sued.
00:52:03They get criminal negligence.
00:52:05They go to jail.
00:52:06Where is that correction mechanism?
00:52:09In religion, do you just cross your fingers and hope for a better pope or a better priest or
00:52:13something like that?
00:52:14I mean, where is the corrective mechanism in religion or in Christianity in particular?
00:52:21Where's the corrective mechanism?
00:52:23Because if you do bad things in the free market, if you don't fulfill your obligations, if you
00:52:28use bad materials, if you're negligent, if you're lazy, if you don't double-check your work,
00:52:33then you get your butt sued off and you probably will go to jail if it's criminal negligence and
00:52:39you cause people's deaths.
00:52:42Is the church liable if they bring a bunch of people into the country and those people
00:52:46commit crimes?
00:52:47I don't think so.
00:52:49And so we can talk about the free market and science, but they generally have corrective
00:52:54medicines, more so a mechanism, sorry, corrective mechanisms.
00:52:57I don't see any of that in particular in religion.
00:53:00Yeah, so as far as religion would be, that would be the corrective mechanism is, there might
00:53:12be a few corrective mechanisms here and there on earth with social ostracism and the like,
00:53:17but ultimately that comes on judgment day where we are judged for what we do and we receive
00:53:25our rewards or our punishment.
00:53:28And that's probably not a big comfort for you in this life, Stefan, because you're trying
00:53:33to fix the world as much as you can here on earth.
00:53:40Hang on, I'm sorry to interrupt.
00:53:42Is it a comfort for you seeing what's happening to Australia?
00:53:47I would say it's, to a certain extent, I would say that the notion that evil politicians and
00:53:55political groups, special interest groups and the like, the notion that they're going
00:54:00to get their comeuppance, does give me some particular, perhaps a schadenfreude, perhaps
00:54:06you could say.
00:54:09But again, yes, you're right.
00:54:10It's not, it's not fixed in the country.
00:54:11And again, well, the eternal life for me is far more important than just having a good
00:54:20life here.
00:54:20I'd like to have a good life here.
00:54:22And I don't think I can't, which is actually why I'm actually somewhat interested in seeing
00:54:26what certain parts of the United States look like.
00:54:32But that's a different conversation.
00:54:38So when we are talking about the, going back to the engineering school, when, you know,
00:54:46they're talking about the, sorry, when you were saying, you know, they're teaching the
00:54:53wrong thing, they're going off and they're going off and teaching people incorrect principles
00:55:01and the like, they're violating the rules of engineering.
00:55:04Yeah, the right thing to do is to get rid of the institution that's teaching the wrong
00:55:11points of engineering.
00:55:12And I think Christianity gets a particularly bad rap for its bad actors.
00:55:21And long story short, I think there just aren't enough good Christian institutions to make as
00:55:30much of a positive change as we would like.
00:55:35I think theoretically it's possible, but I think it's a constant uphill battle to make
00:55:43positive changes, at least until something gets really bad and the entire system breaks,
00:55:48which I wouldn't want to be here for that if that happened.
00:55:51And I think that would just be horrific to have to go through.
00:55:59So I'd say, what is the mechanism that we can do?
00:56:07A cop out to pray, to figure out, to try and figure out what God wants us to do.
00:56:12And again, I understand you don't believe that God exists, but if we were to look at the
00:56:21principles of Christianity and say, this is how the church should be set up, this is the
00:56:26principles that they do follow, we should attempt to emulate that to the best of our abilities.
00:56:35And those who are making mistakes or intentionally misunderstanding it, perhaps is a better word
00:56:42to use, or even unintentionally misunderstanding for what that's worth.
00:56:46I think it's far better that we do what we can to try and fix it, or at least remove
00:56:54ourselves
00:56:54from those institutions that are doing harmful things that go against the teachings of Christianity.
00:57:02Yeah, I mean, I hear what you're saying, and that all sounds very nice. I look at the sort
00:57:07of raw numbers. I'm a bit of a numbers guy, comes out of my entrepreneurial days. I'm a bit of
00:57:12a
00:57:12numbers guy. So a little over 100 years ago, white people were a third of the planet. And now 2
00:57:19%
00:57:20of the world's population is white women of childbearing age. I mean, when do we start to
00:57:27look at different ways of doing things? When we're down to 1%, half a percent? I mean, when do we,
00:57:33I mean, if I were to look at a business, right, and let's just say I would look at a
00:57:37business,
00:57:37and I would say, okay, the business went from a third market share down to, you know, 2%
00:57:45productive salespeople, so to speak. And of these, of the 2% of the world's population that are white
00:57:53women of childbearing age, half of them aren't having kids. So we're really down to 1% from a
00:57:59third, right? So if I were in the business world, and this was a problem that I was tasked with
00:58:06fixing,
00:58:07I would say, well, who's been in charge of this business, so to speak? Who's been running this
00:58:14business? And the answer is Christianity. And so then I would say, okay, well, we start to,
00:58:21we're going to need to look for other things, because there is a certain amount of passivity.
00:58:25There is a certain amount of God's going to handle it, and God's going to punish the people,
00:58:29and God's going to make it right, and I'm going to be fine after death, and so on. And that
00:58:34is,
00:58:36I mean, it's not exactly Viking mentality. I should put it mildly. Sorry, go ahead.
00:58:40It's a bit of a cop-out. Would be accurate to say?
00:58:45Well, I mean, what's your answer? Do you think that the West is just going to vanish? I mean,
00:58:55what do you think, based upon the trends, what's going to happen?
00:59:01I think that there will be declines, but there are, in some countries, right, you've got Trump in the
00:59:11United States, where he's effectively reprogrammed the Republican Party. And he's not perfect by any
00:59:20means, but he's done, I think, a lot of good in the country. He's expelled a lot of illegal immigrants.
00:59:27He's appointed a number of good judges. There's still a lot of bad actors within there, but
00:59:32they're not necessarily, most of them I don't think are in his party. You've got Griffith Lowe's
00:59:41Restore Britain, where he's promising to change a lot of the systems over there. So you're looking
00:59:50at a lot of policy changes there.
00:59:53Sorry to interrupt. I mean, I'm sure you've been tracking this as well. Germany has tried
00:59:57to send a couple of hundred thousand Syrians back to Syria, and what happened?
01:00:02I hadn't heard of that.
01:00:02Oh, yeah. So Germany's trying to say, look, the war's over, your country's largely at peace,
01:00:07and you've got to go back. And the Syrian government has said, nope, we're not taking
01:00:11them. And the answer for that is pretty clear and pretty obvious, which is that the Syrians
01:00:16in Germany get hundreds of billions of euros collectively in welfare. And, you know, some have
01:00:22worked, but most of them are in welfare. And they take that money and they send it to Syria,
01:00:27right, to their families and all of that. And so the Syrian government gets hundreds of billions of
01:00:31dollars, or whatever amount it is, it's a lot. And it doesn't have to provide any services to its
01:00:36citizens, right? No roads, no old age pensions, no healthcare, no education for the kids, no nothing,
01:00:42right? And so, of course, the Syrian government isn't going to take them back. I mean, if somebody was
01:00:49giving you a million dollars a month, and you didn't have to lift a finger, or you didn't get
01:00:53a million dollars a month, and you had to go to work, most people would take the million dollars
01:00:56a month for nothing. And so the governments, I mean, don't want them back. And this, again,
01:01:01was very, very predictable. I mean, you could tax remittances going overseas at 100%, particularly if
01:01:09they came from welfare and so on. But governments don't want to do that, I assume, because there'll be
01:01:15riots, and then the women will get upset at the level of violence that might be used, needed to
01:01:20quell the riots, and so on. So, I mean, I'm not saying there's no political solution. I'm not a
01:01:26politician, so who knows what's going on. But it doesn't seem like it's going to be a particularly
01:01:33gentle process, if that makes sense. So, yeah, maybe there are things. But to go back, because we're
01:01:42not, you know, I understand there's a difference between church and state, obviously, right? But
01:01:47the issue is, for me, that for 60 years, I have seen Christians not do the right thing,
01:01:57even though it's pretty clear. I have seen Christians back down. I have seen churches
01:02:06woke-ified and corrupted. I have seen the Pope turn into, I don't even know what to call this
01:02:14creature in the funny hat. And I don't see it being solved anytime soon. I don't see any big
01:02:22turnaround. I do have a Christian who, a friend who says, you know, we Christians tend to be at
01:02:28our best when we're being persecuted and when we're sort of up against the end of things. And it's like,
01:02:32can we not, though? Can we not, can we not do that in that way? It would be nice. It
01:02:37would be nice
01:02:38not to wait for a total emergency. Like, can we not change our diet and exercise before we have a
01:02:43near-fatal heart attack or something like that?
01:02:45Oh, yeah. But, you know, sugar's just so good, Steph. You don't understand.
01:02:50Yeah, so, I think, ultimately, things are going to, may have, I'm sorry, with the way politics works,
01:03:05I think that there are certain countries, perhaps Germany is one of them, perhaps Australia is one
01:03:09of them, where things are not able to be fixed, in which case, sometimes it's best to maybe perhaps
01:03:19abandon ship, go to a different place where there are different institutions.
01:03:28Maybe, perhaps create your own institutions, your own free society. Maybe there's a possibility for
01:03:35a free society to come up somewhere. I think it's highly unlikely, I think, I think the notion that
01:03:41we would create a, a truly free society where there is no government within, at least our lifetime,
01:03:46is very, very, very unlikely, at least on any particularly large scale, because of how many
01:03:52bad actors exist within humanity.
01:03:55Well, then, I'm sorry, because I don't want to get overly drawn into the political side, even though
01:03:59I just don't agree with that fire. But, um, what I would say is that the goal of my philosophical
01:04:09approach and, and peaceful parenting and so on, is to reason with children early on, to not use force
01:04:15or coercion, uh, to raise them and, uh, so on. And something like, you know, I mean, one of the
01:04:24big
01:04:24problems in America in particular, and this is true throughout the West, I know a little bit more
01:04:30about the history of it in America, you know, government education was pursued heavily by
01:04:33Christians because the Protestants wanted to keep the Catholics, uh, from taking over intellectually.
01:04:39And there was not any particular revolt by the Christians when central banking came along.
01:04:46Central banking is, of course, I mean, the one time we see Jesus actively violent is with the
01:04:51money changers and the financial meddlers and so on. Right. So central banking, they were intentionally
01:04:56corrupt for what that's worth, but yes, as, as our central bankers. So, so Christians, even with
01:05:03the example of Jesus, were unable to have a revolt against central banking. Thou shall not steal,
01:05:10uh, thou shall not bear false witness and so on. Uh, it violates, uh, I think 11 of the 10
01:05:15commandments
01:05:15as a whole, thou shall not covet and so on. Right. And that is where a lot of the roots
01:05:24of the problems
01:05:24come from. Government having control of children's minds will lead them towards secularism and is a,
01:05:30like one giant, a lever to, to move the mindset of the whole society. And this is terrible. And
01:05:38central banking or counterfeiting, um, typing whatever you want into your own bank account,
01:05:42just completely distorts the economy and so on. And was really what drove the length of world war
01:05:49one and the destruction of world war two and so on. And the natural enemy of, uh, Christianity is,
01:05:57uh, communism, secularism to some degree, communism in particular. And, you know, communists are just
01:06:02taken over all over the place, slow march through the institutions. So what I have to say is this
01:06:09Christians pray, and I believe that Christians pray wholeheartedly for wisdom, truth, virtue,
01:06:14and goodness. And I assume that when these terrible things were going on in society, that Christians
01:06:24pray to God for courage, wisdom, and strength. And yet these things have continued and expanded.
01:06:32So what that means is that either there is no God and Christians are just getting the answers back
01:06:38that they want, which tends to be easiest in their life to not make any particular sacrifices to end
01:06:43this corruption. Or a God is telling them, listen, you really need to make sure you don't support
01:06:49central banking. And you really need to make sure that you don't support government indoctrination
01:06:54of the children. And then again, I know a lot of Christians are, uh, homeschooling and so on,
01:07:00which is, which is, which is, I think, relatively good. But either God is not giving them any answers
01:07:05or God is giving them answers that they're not in particular listening to, or God is giving them
01:07:10the wrong answers and they're listening to, uh, and none of which support Christianity. Like if
01:07:14the most charitable explanation is that God is giving Christians the right answers, but Christians
01:07:22aren't listening and acting on them. In which case, well, if in a sense, we then either have to give
01:07:27up
01:07:27completely because if, if there is a God, he's all knowing, he's all powerful and Christians and
01:07:31other religious people believe in God. And God is telling you through prayer is telling you the right
01:07:38things to do. Then if humanity can't do the right thing, when almighty, all knowing, all powerful God
01:07:47whispers in their ear or yells in their ear or gives them thoughts or visions or impulses on what to
01:07:52do,
01:07:53which is the purpose of prayer with the promise of heaven and the punishment of hell, then there's
01:07:57no chance for virtue. There's zero chance for a virtue. Like if somebody is a bad spender or they're
01:08:05bad at managing their money, and then you give them a whole bunch of money, you give them a hundred
01:08:08million dollars and they blow it all in a year, then there's, there's no chance for them to be good
01:08:13with money because you can't give them more money. And so if God is giving Christians the right
01:08:19commandments and God is answering Christians prayers with wisdom and focus and so on, and you
01:08:26know, the Christians who are around me to sort of take it back to where we started, the Christians who
01:08:30are around me were hearing me and, and others in my household getting beaten and, and screamed at and
01:08:36thrown against walls and so on and plates, plates shattering and knife flying around and so on.
01:08:42So they were praying to God for wisdom, right? They were praying, what should God, oh God,
01:08:47what should I do? Even though it's obvious in the Bible what they should do, right? And it's,
01:08:52it's not exactly being crucified, making a 20 second phone call to the authorities. That's
01:08:56anonymous, right? So they were praying to God every night for what to do. And I know this because my
01:09:03aunts again would make me pray. And I was happy to pray when I was younger and I went to
01:09:07boarding
01:09:07school where I went to church a couple of times a week and to pray to every night and so
01:09:12on.
01:09:13And so I know that the Christians around me were praying for wisdom. So then the question is,
01:09:19why did they not do something simple and easy in conformity with religion? And I don't know the
01:09:26answer to that. And of course I can't read people's minds. And if it was just one or two people,
01:09:30but it
01:09:30was hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people in probably a thousand or more in a variety of
01:09:34different environments and circumstances, because we always lived in these apartments with these paper
01:09:38thin walls and everyone could hear. And people were Christians and they were praying for answers
01:09:43about what to do. And either God told them, well, listen, this kid's getting like assaulted. This is
01:09:50brutal. And you've got to pick up the phone and get him help or whatever, right? Go knock on the
01:09:55door.
01:09:55But, you know, even if you're afraid of doing that, at least, you know, so either God told them to,
01:10:00and they didn't do it, which is kind of incomprehensible, or God told them, you know what,
01:10:04just let him be beaten because if he gets beaten badly enough in 30 years, he'll come up with
01:10:09peaceful parenting and UPB, right? So maybe I can't imagine that's the plan is let the child
01:10:14suffer so that maybe some good scar tissue can produce some good philosophy. Or God said, oh yeah,
01:10:21no, he should be beaten, even though I was Christian back then and so on. So that's at a sort
01:10:28of very
01:10:28personal level and the abstract philosophy, philosophical and political stuff is interesting,
01:10:32but I'll just tell you a sort of visceral personal level. I can't understand why people were praying
01:10:38to God for help, a God they believed in, a God they viewed as all-knowing, all-perfect, all-good,
01:10:44and who promised them heaven or threatened them with hell for eternity, and they couldn't make a 20-second
01:10:50phone call. I got to tell you, that's just, I can't process that, like intellectually.
01:10:55Yeah. And to that, my counter-argument more or less is that it doesn't address the, it addresses a
01:11:15shortcoming Christianity in that, or at least of Christians in that regard, because the underlying
01:11:22values and principles are there to direct people. And so I think that, because again, Christians are not
01:11:32Christianity. Christianity is the set of ideas and principles that are based around the life of Jesus,
01:11:39disease, death, and resurrection. And God giving you instructions when you pray.
01:11:44Yeah.
01:11:45Okay. So what was, I mean, what's your answer as to why a thousand plus Christians didn't make a
01:11:51simple phone call and they were happy to make a phone call when I was having a party? And I
01:11:57mean
01:11:57this with like genuine openness and curiosity. There could have been something that's never crossed my
01:12:01mind of, you know, there's a lot of, maybe there's some scar tissue around the experiences.
01:12:07Surrounded by Christians, they're perfectly aware of the violence and abuse. They're praying to God
01:12:12for guidance. I assume that you believe that God told them to do the right thing, right?
01:12:19Yeah. Um, so, uh, in regards whether they, um, whether they, they heard God's word or whether
01:12:27they, they listened, I, I can't speak for them. I wasn't, I wasn't there. I'm not one of them. Um,
01:12:34there, there is no particularly good answer. So if they've, these Christians in the very least
01:12:38failed you, um, I'm not, I'm not going to.
01:12:42Right. They failed.
01:12:43Yeah. Yeah. So if, if God told them to do the right thing and doing the right thing was
01:12:47very easy and doing the right thing actually would have been better for them because I'm sure
01:12:51they didn't enjoy, you know, the crashes, cries, screams, and thumps against the wall and so on.
01:12:55That kind of been much fun for the people around me and so on. Right. So, I mean, it just
01:13:01made no
01:13:01sense at all. Um, even from a practical standpoint, you'd want to deal with it and so on. Uh, but,
01:13:08but the, so the sounds of beatings were fine. The sounds of merriment, well, that means call the
01:13:14cops. So if they have a pipeline to God and God is telling them to do the right thing and
01:13:20every single
01:13:21one of them is doing the wrong thing, then it doesn't work. And, and, uh, you know, I wish it
01:13:26did. Obviously it would be, my life would be a whole lot easier if, if Christianity or religion
01:13:31worked, my life would be a whole lot easier because I would be a, a priest, uh, not a controversial
01:13:39canceled attacked and threatened philosopher. Right. My, my life would be a whole lot easier and I would be
01:13:44super happy if it did work. It really would, but it hasn't yet. Right. And it's been now over 2000
01:13:51years. I'm pushing 60 and I see no evidence of working. In fact, I see it getting worse. Uh,
01:13:57Christianity is shrinking and, uh, dying off. And the West is, uh, in, I mean, you could say
01:14:03existential trouble and so on. And the Pope is doing his thing and the, the priests are doing the thing
01:14:08and importing people by the millions. And I just, you know, I mean, I have ideals, of course I have
01:14:16ideals, but I also have practicalities. Now, the reason that I think it doesn't work is that people
01:14:22don't really believe it because if people did believe it, like if somebody said to me, uh, Steph,
01:14:27you make one anonymous phone call to protect a child who's being abused and I'll give you $10 million.
01:14:32I mean, I think I'd do it either way because I have intervened in situations of child abuse,
01:14:36but if somebody also said, and you'll get $10 million tax free, I would, I would do that.
01:14:43I mean, I would do it without the $10 million, but most people, you know, if somebody had knocked
01:14:47on the doors of my neighbors or, or even my aunts and said, we'll give you $10 million and maybe
01:14:51you
01:14:51don't want it yourself. You can give it to charity or the church. Uh, or you just have to make
01:14:55this
01:14:55anonymous phone call for 20 seconds, uh, and get the authorities involved in this child, this child's
01:15:00assaults and protect him. Uh, people would do that. Right. So, uh, heaven is worth
01:15:06infinitely more than $10 million. Right. And, and the, the treasure, as Jesus says, it's the
01:15:12treasure you lay up in heaven that matters is the gold in heaven that matters, not the gold on this
01:15:15earth. So people don't believe it because if they did believe it, they'd make the call, uh, because
01:15:24it's clear that that's what they should do. And so they don't believe it. And maybe human beings are
01:15:29too empirical or pragmatic or sense-based or flesh-based or something like that. But the
01:15:35only answer is that people don't believe it. And if people are taught morality that they don't
01:15:42really believe, if people are taught consequences, they don't really believe then religion becomes a,
01:15:48a barrier to virtue in the same way that if you think, uh, that there's a magic pill, that's going
01:15:55to remove all the smoking damage from your lungs, it's going to be pretty hard for you to quit smoking
01:15:59because, and so if people say, well, you know, I've prayed, I've gone to church, uh, and I, I believe
01:16:04and I have faith and so on. And, and that's good that that's what I need to do to get
01:16:09into heaven,
01:16:09but they don't actually do good in the world or they don't actually do what, what the Bible commands
01:16:13and so on. Then it's like some weird mirror that makes you look thin when you're not, or, or something
01:16:20like that. Uh, and your clothes fit perfectly. And there's every indication that you're slender
01:16:24when you're not, you have some, maybe some body dysmorphia, you think you're slender when
01:16:27you're not, then you're not going to lose weight because you think you have a solution
01:16:32that you don't. And if I sort of look around the world as a whole, and I see, you know,
01:16:38evildoers winning and, uh, good people kind of going into the fetal position or armadillo
01:16:43style or running from place to place, trying to get to some place of safety and security for
01:16:47another five minutes. And I see Christianity falling and fading and participating in some of the
01:16:52ruin of, of things that are going on. I'm like, okay, well, I can't ride this thing into the
01:16:58ground. I, I, it's too risky. And, uh, that's why I've really tried to focus on another solution
01:17:04because I don't think, and I'm not talking about you in particular. I'm just talking about the people
01:17:07like, I can't understand if it's, if it's a simple, easy thing to do, like make a phone call and
01:17:16you get to go to heaven because of that. And people don't do it. Then they don't believe.
01:17:21And you can say, oh, well, that's the failure. People don't believe. And it's like, yeah, but
01:17:24if people don't believe, and it's kind of disastrous that people don't believe,
01:17:28then we need something people can believe in, which is why I worked on UPB because UPB can prove,
01:17:33um, virtue and property rights and rape, theft, assault, and murder, evil, and so on. And I don't need
01:17:39any faith. I don't need any belief. I don't need any, um, I won't say sky daddies because that's
01:17:43like a real cringe, uh, Redditor fedora phrase, but I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's,
01:17:49and it's very disrespectful to the enormous intellectual and moral and artistic contributions
01:17:55of Christianity. But if people don't really believe in the virtues that they inherited, then
01:18:05we need to give them virtues they can believe in and that they don't need to try and square a
01:18:12circle
01:18:12in their mind to sustain. And that really has been the purpose of the rational or philosophical approach
01:18:16to ethics. But listen, I mean, I've had a long chat. We've had a long chat. I'll certainly give you
01:18:20the last word because, um, I don't want to, I don't want to ride roughshod over the air perspective.
01:18:25But again, I really do appreciate the conversation. Yes. Um, so, um, in, in regards to, um, uh,
01:18:35whether or not those Christians truly Christians believed what they, what the, uh, tenets of
01:18:41Christianity said or not, um, ultimately doesn't, uh, have any impact on the validity of the teachings
01:18:51themselves or the, the history of Christianity or whether or not Jesus lived and died and rose
01:18:57again, uh, these are either, uh, true or they are false regardless of, uh, whether Christians
01:19:05have, uh, screwed you over or not. Um, uh, Gandhi was, made a very interesting, uh, point and he's,
01:19:16admittedly he, he did sleep in the same bed as his grandnieces to test his willpower against
01:19:20sexual desire. So there's not a lot of respect for me in that, in that regard. But, um, the
01:19:25one, the one quote that, uh, does, uh, make a good point was, I like your Christ. I do not
01:19:30like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. Um, because again, lots
01:19:37of Christians just did not follow, uh, Jesus teachings. They did not follow, uh, what he
01:19:43said, uh, whether, whether they believed incorrectly or they intentionally misunderstood is, uh, is,
01:19:50uh, not, uh, has, has no relevance on whether, uh, Christ's teachings are true or not. These
01:19:58are separate discussions, again, had by, uh, far better people than myself. Um, whether
01:20:04Christianity is functioning in its intended way doesn't change whether or not the underlying
01:20:09principles are true. It ultimately just shows, um, that, uh, people have made mistakes,
01:20:18they're screw-ups. They, um, or perhaps, perhaps even that, um, philosophically speaking, maybe
01:20:26God made a mistake. I'm not claiming that, that you, you did, uh, make that claim for what
01:20:31it's worth. I'm being intellectually honest here. So, um, yeah, thank, thank you for the
01:20:36discussion. And I, I don't, I don't imagine this is what's going to be the, the call that
01:20:41brings you back to Jesus. Um, I, um, I can imagine a lot of people will, will look at
01:20:48this conversation and say, you know, oh, Stefan absolutely, um, absolutely mugged this
01:20:53guy. Um, no, that's not the purpose of the conversation. It really is to have a illuminating
01:20:58and enlightening discussion about cause and effect and right and wrong and good and evil.
01:21:02And so I'm not trying to win. I'm obviously just trying to get my perspective across and
01:21:07your perspective is powerful and I really appreciate and you've certainly given me some
01:21:10stuff to think about. Yep. Um, in which case, Steph, um, I'll continue to pray for you. Um,
01:21:20I'll, um, and I hope that, um, this isn't the end of this conversation. I hope that, um, you
01:21:26can have better conversations with, uh, with more people. Um, again, Vox Day is a good person
01:21:30to talk to as far as the theory of evolution is concerned. Um, he's, he's written a few, um,
01:21:35things on his, uh, on Vox Populi over there that you could have a look at. Um, but again,
01:21:42um, yeah, all, all the best to you, Steph, um, in, uh, in your future, um, endeavors and
01:21:47travels and, and journeys. And, um, if, if I'm ever in the area, uh, which is, you know,
01:21:55possible, uh, unlikely of possible, uh, I'd love to say g'day sometime. So I appreciate
01:21:59that. And thank you for a great conversation. I'm sure we'll talk again. Take care. Have
01:22:03a good night. Thank you, Steph. Bye.
01:22:05Bye.
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