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As the world marks International Migrants Day on December 18th, we look at how global shifts in mobility are shaping Malaysia’s economy, labour market, and social fabric. What are the key migration trends, challenges, and opportunities facing the country today? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Heba Abdellatif, Chief of Mission to Malaysia, International Organization for Migration (IOM) and Amanda Ng, National Programme Officer for Malaysia for IOM
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00:00Hello and good evening, I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the needs of the day.
00:19As the world marks International Migrants Day on December 18th,
00:24today on the episode, we'll take a look at how global shifts in mobility are shaping Malaysia's economy,
00:31labour market and social fabric.
00:34So what are the key migration trends, challenges and opportunities that the country is facing today?
00:39We will delve deeper into all of this with the good folks from the International Organization for Migration,
00:46Heba Abdul Latif, who is the Chief of Mission to Malaysia,
00:49and Amanda Ang, who is the National Programme Officer for Malaysia.
00:54Welcome to the show, both of you. Thank you so much for being here with me.
00:58If I may begin with you, Heba, maybe what we can do to set the scene for the conversation is
01:04maybe you can tell us a little bit more about the organization IOM.
01:10It's known as the UN Migration Agency.
01:12Talk to us a little bit about what it does, what its mission is and who it aims to support.
01:17So thank you so much, first of all, Melissa, for inviting us
01:21and for celebrating with us Migrants Day on the 18th of December.
01:26IOM is a UN agency since 2016, but it was established actually in 1951.
01:32We work on a diverse profile of migration based on government policies and priorities.
01:38We work under the framework of the Global Compact on Migration,
01:41which is a non-binding government-led framework that allows governments to tailor their migration policies
01:49based on their priorities and their needs.
01:52Within that context, of course, we work on saving lives.
01:55We work on finding solutions for internally displaced.
01:59And our third most important strategic point is regular pathways.
02:04How can we enhance and extend regular pathways to migrants?
02:10Let me give you some facts maybe to start with.
02:12We have 281 million international migrants worldwide.
02:17People moving, people who are going on a journey every day,
02:20whether it's for education, for work, for family unification, for resettlement.
02:24So many different versions of migrants that need support
02:28to make their journey as positive as possible.
02:32We have 117.3 million people forcibly displaced as of June 2025.
02:39They could be displaced due to conflict, due to climate change,
02:42different reasons behind that.
02:45But these are people that need support,
02:48sometimes temporarily and sometimes even for longer term.
02:51And then finally, there's over 202,000 detected victims of trafficking
02:58reported by states in 2023.
03:02Victims of trafficking, of course, again,
03:04mainly women and children are the most vulnerable to this crime.
03:09And trying to find them the right support,
03:11whether from the minute we are able to identify them,
03:15provide them with immediate support,
03:17and then see what solutions they have.
03:19There's the legal system, of course, in every country.
03:22But there's also basic needs,
03:24getting them prepared sometimes even to go back
03:26and reintegrate into their society.
03:29As I mentioned, we've been here in Malaysia since 2005.
03:33Our programs have focused mainly on refugee resettlement.
03:37We do labor mobility, labor migration.
03:40We do integrated border governance,
03:42which includes counter-trafficking and counter-smuggling.
03:45And, of course, trying to find the best way for the protection of migrants
03:50and providing them with as much assistance as possible
03:53within the frameworks allowed for in Malaysia.
03:56Heba, thank you so much for making that distinction.
03:58I think sometimes when we talk about migration,
04:01we lump it all under one big, broad category.
04:05But you've made the distinction that there are different categories.
04:09Labor migrants, there are those who are displaced,
04:11there are refugees, the trafficking victims and survivors.
04:14So I think that's a really important distinction for us to make
04:18and have that lens, I think, going forward,
04:20particularly in this conversation.
04:22Amanda, talk to me a little bit about IOM's work in Malaysia specifically
04:25with the lens of the categories that Heba mentioned.
04:30I think the work actually has to Heba to mention it.
04:33Oh, yes.
04:35No, I think the work we do is mainly focused on capacity building here.
04:39We do a lot of work with government entities
04:42supporting their needs and their gaps
04:45and trying to build models that can be institutionalized.
04:50We're not creating separate parallel models,
04:53but basically working with the systems to see how,
04:56as a technical expertise on migration from different parts of the world,
04:59how can we support and enhance existing systems
05:03or even creating new systems?
05:06For example, again, as mentioned,
05:08we were talking about victims of trafficking,
05:10which is my favorite, closest to my heart topic
05:12because that's where I started working 15 years ago.
05:16What happens when you identify a victim of trafficking?
05:19How are they supported beyond the legal system again?
05:23Where do they go?
05:24Who do they call to?
05:25What kind of referral system exists?
05:28And this, in some countries, has been more successful than others.
05:31I've seen it in some countries where you can literally pick up the phone
05:34and somebody will answer you on the other side.
05:36You say, I've seen a child who I think is trafficked.
05:39Can I, can you help?
05:40And they will take it from that moment
05:42and they will be able to provide the right assistance
05:44until they find a solution to that case.
05:47And I think for me, that is something I'm trying to work on.
05:51There is quite an elaborate system here.
05:53We work with MAPO.
05:54There are shelters for victims of trafficking.
05:56There's a very strong legal framework and we are working with them
06:02to even make it, to enhance it more.
06:05Amanda, what is your view of the work that's being done in Malaysia,
06:10particularly given the narrative and the context of migrants here?
06:15We often hear this, I guess, misconception that, you know,
06:20migrants take jobs, that migrants increase crime,
06:24that there is a strain on public services because of them.
06:28And I think that it's important that we address some of these misconceptions.
06:32Talk to me a little bit about what you've noticed in your work here.
06:35For sure.
06:36I think misconceptions do exist everywhere.
06:39But if we really look at the fact, it paints a very different picture
06:43like what Heba has mentioned just now is that
06:45migrants' community is not a homogeneous group.
06:48I think that is a fact, right?
06:50But also if you look at the situation in Malaysia here right now,
06:53we also have different group of all these migrant workers
06:56and they have different needs and different contributions
06:58that makes the Malaysia reality as of today as well.
07:02And Malaysia hosts around 2.1 million of migrant workers
07:06who actually fill up the labour shortages in key industries
07:10like the constructions, manufacturing, services, plantation.
07:16And by filling up all these gaps in the job market,
07:19they actually promote business growth.
07:21And this business growth actually bring benefits
07:24such as creating more jobs for Malaysians
07:27and increase a higher national income for us.
07:30We don't really often think or give the credit where it's due
07:34of how much migrant workers are part of our development,
07:39help our economic progress, our economic growth.
07:44When you work with the private sector,
07:47when you work with stakeholders in Malaysia,
07:51how do you convey the importance of recognising that contribution?
07:56I think with our work with the private sector,
07:59what we have seen right now is that
08:01actually even the Malaysian company itself,
08:03they recognise the importance of all these labour migrants.
08:06They even stepping up, wanted to strengthen their labour system
08:09in order to protect all these migrant workers
08:12throughout the labour migration journey.
08:14And this is why they also approach with IOM to seek for guidance.
08:18But it's not just because it's the right thing to do,
08:20but it also makes a good business sense.
08:23Because if you look at globally right now,
08:25we have such an increasing trade and due diligence legislation upcoming
08:30that aim at preventing services or even product,
08:35that preventing forced labour practices.
08:37So if a Malaysian company strengthening their practices,
08:41it also strengthening their competitiveness.
08:44And that actually opened up the door for them to international market,
08:48actually helps to build Malaysia's reputation
08:50as a responsible trading partner.
08:53And of course, ultimately,
08:54it's to promote a safe and orderly migration for all
08:56and benefits the society, the economy as well.
08:59We've seen how allegations of forced labour practices
09:03has really hurt companies, their brand, their reputation,
09:08and also access to markets, as you mentioned.
09:12Looking at Malaysia's context,
09:17Malaysia's practices towards migrants,
09:21and let's make a distinction.
09:23Let's talk about the labour migrants first.
09:26Maybe you can help me think through some of the pain points
09:31or the gaps in Malaysia's current labour migration system.
09:35When we think about the entire system, as you mentioned, Heba,
09:37where are the gaps,
09:40where are the inefficiencies that can be improved?
09:46Do you want to take that, Amanda or Heba?
09:47I think when it comes to labour migration systems in Malaysia here,
09:52we do have quite a comprehensive laws and regulation
09:55when it comes to managing the migrant workers itself in the countries.
10:00What I see from most of the time is that
10:03when it comes to the enforcement,
10:06enforcement on labour inspectorate,
10:08probably that is a challenge that we heard from the government.
10:11I think it was also reported on the report as well.
10:15But we also heard from a lot of employers
10:17is that what are some of the incentives for them to do better.
10:21So for a lot of employees is that
10:23sometimes they feel like they only will adhere to the minimal standard,
10:27what our Malaysia law has stated,
10:30what they needed to do.
10:31But a lot of the time,
10:33we also see increasingly the companies,
10:35because of all the environmental, social and governance standards,
10:38standards, they want to do better.
10:40They want to report that
10:41they actually adhere to a better standard.
10:44Then it opens up the door for them on businesses and profit.
10:47That is also another side that we are seeing as well.
10:50So on the other side,
10:52we also heard that migrant workers do not have enough information.
10:56So we have pre-departial orientation in the country of origin.
11:00But how about a post-arrival orientation in our country?
11:05So once they arrive in Malaysia,
11:06they also have the information,
11:10what are the dues and don'ts and expectations to live in Malaysia
11:13and their working situation as well.
11:16So this is also an area of work that Malaysia perhaps can look into it.
11:21But of course, we are doing that in partnership with the government
11:23to look into this fulfilling the gap on the post-arrival orientation.
11:28Is that common practice in other countries for migrants for the labour market?
11:35When you have migrants come in,
11:36you have a post-arrival briefing or introduction, is it?
11:40Yes. For a comprehensive information system,
11:43good practices is that you have actually four rounds of orientations.
11:46It's a lot.
11:48You have to start with the pre-employment orientation.
11:51So by the time they are selected by the job
11:53or even wanted to interview for a job,
11:55what is the expectation?
11:56You start with that.
11:57And then once they're selected,
11:59you go into a pre-departial orientation
12:01where before they depart,
12:03there is this information session for them.
12:05Once they arrive here,
12:06there is a post-arrival session for them.
12:08And then before they return back to their country
12:10upon their finishing the contract,
12:12then there is this pre-return orientation for them as well.
12:15Wow. Okay.
12:16So that's actually really comprehensive.
12:18So that would be kind of best practices that we would aim for.
12:23What are the gaps or protection risks
12:27do you see for migrant workers in Malaysia?
12:32Are there areas where some of these risks can be mitigated?
12:39I think in the case of labour migrants,
12:42I would say when we look at the risk,
12:44we also look at stages for migration stage,
12:46we look at recruitment, employment, and return stage.
12:49On the recruitment stage, based on our research,
12:52we always found that there is this high recruitment fees
12:55and costs faced by or even charged on the migrant workers themselves.
12:59They do not aware of the contract that they are signing.
13:03Is that still happening, to have a recruitment fee borne by the migrant worker themselves?
13:10So from our research, we still found, yes.
13:13But that's not the way it's meant to be, right?
13:15Okay.
13:16Yes.
13:16Please continue.
13:17Yes.
13:18But it does continue that.
13:20So basically, high recruitment fees and costs,
13:23and after that is not understanding the contract situations,
13:26or even there is a, what we call a contract substitution,
13:29what they were being briefed on,
13:31on the terms and conditions of their work,
13:33actually different from the contract that they signed.
13:36So this is also a very common issue that we have found as well.
13:40And while in the employment stage,
13:42it's very common that their living conditions is probably not on par.
13:46But Malaysia do have very good law in housing,
13:49which is just the challenges right now.
13:52It's on the enforcement on checking the housing situation
13:55that live by the migrant workers.
13:58Another thing is more of a lot of cases that we heard lately
14:01is also about the salary we're holding.
14:04So there are still cases.
14:06But what we, so this is also a very common issue that we have faced as well,
14:10that we heard from the communities themselves.
14:12What happens?
14:13So Heba, you mentioned something quite wonderful
14:16about having, say, a hotline for suspected trafficking victims.
14:23What avenues or recourses for justice do migrant workers,
14:31do victims and survivors,
14:33would people who are on the move,
14:35who are in part of the migration process,
14:38what avenues do they have to seek help or to seek support?
14:43Where does IOM come into play for this?
14:47So basically there is a legal system that is very clear.
14:50The structure is there.
14:51Once they are apprehended, detained,
14:53or they even submit a formal complaint,
14:55they go through the system.
14:56And once the case is identified as a legal victim of trafficking,
15:00as they say, potential victim of trafficking,
15:02they go through the, they, there are shelters available for them to stay at
15:06until the legal process is, is a process.
15:10As IOM, we also provide other options in terms of assistance,
15:14especially we have what we call an assistant voluntary return reintegration program.
15:19In 2023, we returned about, globally,
15:24we returned about 56,000 people to their countries of origin,
15:28whether they're victims of trafficking or vulnerable migrants
15:30that just want to go home.
15:32They have been trapped in one of those vicious cycles
15:34or fell out of the legal system for one way,
15:37dropped off, that dropped off, as they say.
15:41This allows us to provide them with certain assistance before,
15:45some people don't want to go through the legal system, let's say,
15:47they want to go home.
15:49We try to provide them with immediate assistance.
15:52While we do, we take care of them and get them ready to go home.
15:55Then we take them home.
15:57We have a network, of course, of missions on the other side
16:00where they receive them and provide them with reintegration assistance
16:04and follow up with them to make sure that they have gone home
16:07and reintegrated more.
16:10We, I mean, again, as you mentioned,
16:12we have different categories with refugees.
16:14We have resettled 127,000 refugees since we've been here in Malaysia in 2005,
16:22back to, sorry, two-third countries.
16:24Okay.
16:25But, of course, they have a lot of protection risks, too,
16:28because we cannot return them home.
16:30So there are, again, I think what you really emphasize,
16:33unlike these different profiles of migrants and refugees
16:36and asylum seekers and labour migrants that really do need a tailored approach
16:41and what we call at IOM a case management approach in many cases
16:45and how to make sure this works for them all.
16:48When you, sometimes we read of headlines or news reports about immigration raids
16:55and then there are, and I don't use this term lightly,
16:59but sometimes it's referred to as illegal migrants,
17:02undocumented workers or irregular migrants.
17:05When we think about that, during those raids,
17:10is there a distinction being made as to whether someone is a labour migrant,
17:17an undocumented migrant or a trafficked victim or a displaced person,
17:24a refugee, an asylum seeker?
17:26Are those distinctions being made at those points of raids
17:30and mass, you know, when operations of the like?
17:36Do you have any thoughts you want to read?
17:38I mean, from my understanding, of course, once they're apprehended,
17:43they go through a screening identification.
17:45So if they have their paperwork as labour migrants,
17:48if they are refugees and they have their refugee card,
17:51then they are given the rights and so on.
17:54So breaking a law, breaking the immigration law is one thing,
17:58and due process throughout to make sure that they are given the rights
18:02based on their status is also there.
18:05And this is a system, of course, managed by the government.
18:07Is there ways to improve that system based on how other systems operate
18:14or best practices elsewhere?
18:16Do we want to work towards maybe improving some of the safeguards
18:20or efficiencies in those systems?
18:23I think maybe looking at alternatives to detention,
18:27which the government of Malaysia is prioritising right now,
18:31especially for women and children.
18:32Alternatives to detention.
18:34Because putting children in detention with adults is quite difficult, let's say.
18:41And I think what they're looking at now is looking at best practices across the world
18:45and especially through the region to see how we can emulate and see what it is.
18:49Of course, returning children to their community is the best option for them,
18:56making them return and feel safe.
18:59And this is kind of providing them with that assistance is very important.
19:04So I think that would be something that I would highly advocate for,
19:08as well as children in detention.
19:10Definitely.
19:11Which there is a lot of effort and a lot of support
19:13and which I can link to your question also on the ASEAN.
19:16A couple of weeks ago, there was the ASEAN meeting on the guidelines
19:20of alternatives to detention here in Kuala Lumpur,
19:24hosted by the government of Malaysia, just to agree on what that,
19:29on how to move forward.
19:30A regional push to address this issue.
19:33Yes, absolutely.
19:34Wonderful.
19:34What about, since you mentioned ASEAN,
19:36can I ask you whether there is a more concerted effort
19:41to look at migration trends and migration flows
19:46from a regional perspective as opposed from an individual country-to-country perspective?
19:52By default, migration cannot be seen only from one country, right?
19:56Absolutely.
19:57It's never just one country.
19:58It can never be.
19:59And Malaysia is situated in the center and in the middle
20:03of so many migration routes, right?
20:06So we definitely do look at that.
20:09We have a regional data hub in Bangkok,
20:12which we try to provide with as much information from all our countries
20:16to be able to put together the picture.
20:18But remember that the picture changes every day.
20:21You need every month to see what are the new trends,
20:24what are the new nationalities you see,
20:27is there a new conflict that started,
20:29do you expect to see new people moving because of a natural disaster,
20:34because of climate change, because of conflict.
20:36So there is no one set map, let's say,
20:41that I can give you.
20:42It changes.
20:43How do you maintain an understanding of the trends?
20:46I'm not going to tell you that it's not thick.
20:48I can tell you exactly how many people are moving today.
20:52That's governments who know how many people enter and exit.
20:54But from our perspective, we see certain things in different countries
20:58and how do we link the dots, let's say,
21:01to make sure we can see what the movements are like.
21:04Can I ask you about, you mentioned being displaced through climate change.
21:10Is that an area where we will see more migration happen
21:14because extreme weather patterns has caused people to be unable to live where they are?
21:21Is that something you're seeing?
21:23I think at the global level,
21:25it is happening is that there are communities that are being affected by climate change.
21:30Therefore, they have to force to leave their home.
21:32But we see that as a global trend.
21:35In this region, we are still conducting a research to really understand
21:38what is the trend right now,
21:39who are the vulnerability communities that will be affected by climate change.
21:43So this is actually an ongoing effort.
21:45In fact, we do have an ongoing project to look into this area of issues
21:48to really gather the evidence data
21:50before we inform our policymakers about these issues.
21:54The data is so important in policymaking.
21:57And for something as fluid and ever-changing as migration patterns,
22:03I can only imagine the challenge of gathering data
22:06to create evidence-based policy.
22:08So when we look at the programs that IAM is doing in Malaysia,
22:14talk to me about what is going to happen next with the priorities
22:17and where you would like to see the direction of policies happen.
22:23Yes, Emma.
22:27For IAM Malaysia, we're strengthening our current programs.
22:30Our labor migration program is key.
22:33They've made a lot of...
22:34We've taken a lot of steps on what we call business and human rights,
22:39migration, business, human rights, working with the private sector.
22:43And it's starting to, I think, show a lot of good results.
22:48Our resettlement program will continue for sure.
22:51We are trying to strengthen our assistance and voluntary return
22:54with a protection lens.
22:55And we're working now with the Department of Immigration
22:59on border governance and also, as I mentioned, on trafficking.
23:03So quite a number of new initiatives
23:06and strengthening these initiatives within the next year.
23:10Also looking globally, IOM, we need to keep an eye on
23:14what's going on around us, as I mentioned.
23:17So looking at the situation, for example, in Cox's Bazaar
23:20where we are supporting, IOM is supporting a million Rohingyas there.
23:25How is that going to be impacted?
23:27What are the trends from there?
23:28That's going to be also something we keep an eye on.
23:30This has been quite a challenging year, hasn't it?
23:32Particularly for funding, for sustainability of humanitarian programs.
23:38I think it has been, hopefully, 2026 will be a better year for that.
23:43And can I ask you about International Migrants Day?
23:47If we were to think about the importance of acknowledging the contributions of migrants
23:56and also the risks that people on the move face.
24:01At some point in our lives, we all become people on the migration path.
24:06So talk to me a little bit, Amanda, about what message you would like the public
24:10and also policymakers to reflect on this International Migrants Day.
24:14I think for International Migrants Day, it's always a reflection about the human story
24:19behind the migrations.
24:21And for this year, for IOM, our team on the International Migrants Day
24:25is on migrate stories, cultures and development.
24:28For sure, what we wanted to highlight is that the human story behind the migration,
24:32especially about the opportunity, the resilience and the different way of different cultures
24:38actually contribute to the country growth.
24:41I think we need to acknowledge all these positive stories.
24:46That's very important.
24:47And we should take this opportunity in the International Migrants Day
24:51to celebrate all these positive stories, correct misunderstandings
24:56and really acknowledge the shared efforts of people on the move
24:59and their contribution towards the economy, the society and the families across the world.
25:06Heba, do you want to add any last words before we wrap today?
25:09Maybe just to give an idea of what IOM does in the humanitarian sector.
25:14As you mentioned, we have quite a lot of work now going on, as I mentioned,
25:18in Bangladesh, in Gaza, in Sudan and Ukraine.
25:21And that is a big part of our work where I think we look at it more from an emergency point of view.
25:28This is something that we watch carefully.
25:31We support a lot in that we've established different funds, including our Islamic Philanthropy Fund,
25:38where we are trying to support these very, very critical areas to support migrants and people on the move.
25:48Finally, I do want to thank you.
25:49This is a great opportunity.
25:51And I think International Migrants Day will be better because of people like you.
25:55Thank you so much.
25:57And she's going to become a migrant in a month.
26:00And I'm a migrant here.
26:02So we have...
26:03We are all migrants.
26:07Yes, and that was one of our motives.
26:08I am a migrant.
26:09I've been a migrant all my life.
26:11And I've been a very happy migrant in Malaysia.
26:14Wonderful.
26:15Thank you both for coming on and talking about such an important topic.
26:18I really appreciate your time.
26:21That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
26:24I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
26:26Thank you so much for watching and good night.
26:27Bye.
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