- 5 weeks ago
This video documents the conversation between the artist Li Yi-Fan and the curator Raphael Fonseca, addressing the creative process and the decisions involved in the conception of the exhibition Screen Melancholy: Li Yi-Fan. The conversation is part of the public programs of the exhibition at the Palazzo delle Prigioni in Venice (Italy).
Taiwan presents “Screen Melancholy: Li Yi-Fan” as its Collateral Event at the 61st International Art Exhibition – La Biennale di Venezia. Organized by the Taipei Fine Arts Museum (TFAM), the exhibition runs from May 9 to November 22, 2026, at the historic Palazzo delle Prigioni in Venice. Artist Li Yi-Fan and curator Raphael Fonseca, both shaped by the rise of the internet, explore the melancholy induced by prolonged screen use and the anxieties of the digital age, including information overload and rapid AI development. The presentation features a new 60-minute video work centered on an “eyeball” returning home, accompanied by two smaller video pieces and large-scale 3D-printed sculptures of body parts that serve as both installation elements and seating. Drawing on Li’s practice of digital puppetry and real-time game engines, the immersive installation blurs boundaries between physical space, virtual imagery, and human perception. The project connects contemporary technological concerns with historical references such as Albrecht Dürer’s Melencolia I. Public programs and a new bilingual artist book will accompany the exhibition.
Taiwan in Venice 2026: Conversation between Artist Li Yi-Fan and Curator Raphael Fonseca. Venice (Italy), May 7, 2026.
Taiwan presents “Screen Melancholy: Li Yi-Fan” as its Collateral Event at the 61st International Art Exhibition – La Biennale di Venezia. Organized by the Taipei Fine Arts Museum (TFAM), the exhibition runs from May 9 to November 22, 2026, at the historic Palazzo delle Prigioni in Venice. Artist Li Yi-Fan and curator Raphael Fonseca, both shaped by the rise of the internet, explore the melancholy induced by prolonged screen use and the anxieties of the digital age, including information overload and rapid AI development. The presentation features a new 60-minute video work centered on an “eyeball” returning home, accompanied by two smaller video pieces and large-scale 3D-printed sculptures of body parts that serve as both installation elements and seating. Drawing on Li’s practice of digital puppetry and real-time game engines, the immersive installation blurs boundaries between physical space, virtual imagery, and human perception. The project connects contemporary technological concerns with historical references such as Albrecht Dürer’s Melencolia I. Public programs and a new bilingual artist book will accompany the exhibition.
Taiwan in Venice 2026: Conversation between Artist Li Yi-Fan and Curator Raphael Fonseca. Venice (Italy), May 7, 2026.
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CreativityTranscript
00:00Thank you for joining us for this afternoon's public talk program for the Taiwan Collateral Event, Screamed Melancholy, Li Yifan.
00:08To begin, please join me in welcoming Ms. Li Zhen Luo Li Zhen, the Director of the Taipei Fine Arts
00:15Museum, to deliver her remarks. Please, Guan Zhang.
00:36Thank you so much for joining us for the Taiwan Collateral Event, I'm the Director of Taipei Fine Arts Museums,
00:43and welcome to this artist's talk between the artist and the creator.
01:00During the Venice Biennale, the whole island is like a maze of art, so thank you for choosing us over
01:06all of these events.
01:29In this artist's talk, we invite artists and the creator to talk about their cultural process, but also as our
01:35artists to talk about his creative projects,
01:37practices over the years. I hope that we can also talk about not just the work itself, but also how
01:42they create and how it becomes the work itself.
01:44Next, I want to thank you for joining us for today's exhibition, Raphael Fonseca. Raphael is in some place.
01:54Now, we would like to invite our curator, Raphael Fonseca, to the event. If he's not here yet, it's time
02:02to call him.
02:04Okay, Raphael is now the curator in the Denver Museum of Art, and starting from next month, he will also
02:21be a new, starting his new positions in Portugal as a visual art curator in the cultural guest.
02:28Okay, and Raphael's design strategy is very interesting. He will always be able to make art, and虚构,幽默, and判断 and
02:38thinking together.
02:48So, Raphael, in his curatorial practice, he often combines a great perspective as well as humor, and this time, we
02:54also present and include this kind of perspective into this work, and that's how we try to see how the
03:00screen and also technologies influence our perceptions of the world.
03:07We also have the artist, Lee Yifan, here with us on your right-hand side.
03:10Lee Yifan, in his work, he often uses technology sculptures and interactive and gaming engines to create these relationships that
03:30talk about how humans and technology have this close, intimate, but also contradictory relationship.
03:36Lee Yifan, in his work, he also creates this work that creates a theater with body and technology.
03:56Lee Yifan, in his work, he was always brilliant in the form of an artistic work.
04:02Lee Yifan, in his work, he was very active in an art background, which is like a formed creation of
04:12the musical director of people and all of the artists and artists.
04:13Lee Yifan, in his work, he also talks about the line between real and virtual is now blurry.
04:26It is also how we experience technologies in screen today.
04:37Without further ado, let's welcome our curators and artists.
04:41Thank you, Director.
04:45Now, please join me in welcoming the artist, Mr. Li Yifan, and the curator, Mr. Rafael Fronseca,
04:51for their talk of the artistic and curatorial concepts behind this project.
04:56Please, you have the floor.
04:59Look, there are two seats here. If anyone wants to sit very close to us, there are still two seats
05:05here.
05:06No? No one? No one wants to sit? You want to come? Carla, you coming? Okay.
05:11No, it's fine. Okay.
05:15How do we start? Should I start? I should start. Okay.
05:20First of all, thank you all for coming here in this very intense week of the opening of the Venice
05:28Biennial.
05:30I mean, sorry, I'm totally overwhelmed, lots of people, so I don't know exactly how to start.
05:35But anyway, thank you so much for coming here.
05:37Thank you so much for the interest in our quick conversation about screen melancholy.
05:42As the Director Lowe said, my name is Rafael Fronseca, I'm from Brazil, I'm from Rio.
05:48Very happy to see some very famous, some very usual Brazilian faces here in front.
05:55And also, before starting anything, I would like to say publicly, of course, thank you very much, Yifam, for this
06:03invitation.
06:04This came absolutely as a surprise. I mean, we can talk about the backstage.
06:09I mean, I think that's the idea of the conversation to talk about.
06:11I mean, how we met, how I was working together, how I was organizing screen melancholy.
06:16But I need to say publicly, again, how much it has been amazing to work with you and how nice
06:24it is to have a collaboration with an artist
06:27and then realize during the process that not only working together, but we're becoming friends.
06:32So I'm really thankful for this, for real. I don't want to be too emotional, too Brazilian.
06:37So, hi, my name is Yifam. Yes, I'm from Taiwan, Taipei.
06:41And I'm a little bit nervous, so my English might broken.
06:45And in that case, I think Jiao Wei will help me to translate.
06:48I'll switch back to my Mandarin mode. Yes.
06:51So where should I start?
06:54I'm a visual artist, working video.
06:57And I've been making video for...
07:01Sorry, the sound was quite annoying.
07:03I always feel embarrassed to, like, speech next to my work.
07:06Because my work is quite noisy and he talks a lot and I don't talk so much.
07:12And now he's singing.
07:14I'm sorry.
07:15Where am I?
07:16Okay, I've been making video for a long, long time.
07:20I just memorized, like, maybe 20 years ago when I, or even more than 20 years ago, I got my
07:26first PC
07:27and I was using Flash.
07:29Maybe some people didn't know this software.
07:32It's, like, very ancient software.
07:34It's, like, Flash 2.0 or something.
07:36And I created a really violent animation when I was a very young kid.
07:41Because I think for me, like, animation or, like, video is something like a safe space.
07:46It has, like, very isolated to the reality.
07:50So I'm able to...
07:51I have the right to make anything.
07:53That was what I was thinking about.
07:55But after, like, 30 years passed, we started to realize that the image in the world is not actually, like,
08:03fake and real.
08:05Sometimes the image is kind of real in a certain part.
08:08Yeah.
08:10And the piece we're seeing now is, like, serious.
08:13I've been working on maybe, like, more or less five or six years.
08:17Like, during that time, because then making animation, if someone knows how to make animation, like, making animation is a
08:23very tedious process.
08:24You have to do, like, keyframe, which is, I hate it very much.
08:28It's very slow.
08:29Or stop motion is also very slow.
08:30So during that time, I was thinking about only one question.
08:34Like, how can I make the image making into something more intuitive way?
08:38So that's why I started to develop my own, like, image making toolkit inside Game Engine.
08:45And eventually became this, like, digital poppy things, which you saw now.
08:50Yeah.
08:51And so a very brief introduction, like, where my practice came from.
08:56Yes.
08:57Do you have...
08:57Should we go, like...
08:59Yeah, yeah.
09:00You can make...
09:01You can play, like, Oprah Winfrey.
09:03Um...
09:03So, no.
09:04The first thing I would like to ask you, and I know you already explained to me many times, but
09:08I suppose lots of people here are getting to know, are seeing your work for the first time here in
09:13Venice,
09:14is more or less how it is the process of, like, physically making the works.
09:19So, I mean...
09:19Yeah, I mean, in the sense of, like, which tools do you use to generate these images, the thing with
09:25the VR and the joysticks, I mean, winter studio in Amsterdam,
09:28because Yifan is still doing the Rijks Academy, that amazing school of visual arts in Amsterdam.
09:33There's a whole Rijks Academy mafia here also.
09:36I mean, friends of him from his class and the previous one.
09:40But I was wondering if you could explain a bit, you know, how it is this process of, like, capturing
09:45your body and transforming that into a fragment of what we see over there.
09:54Yeah, so, like, I would say, like, my studio is the most boring studio in Rijks Academy, because, like, all
10:01the studio in Rijks Academy, they have, like, sculpture, amazing tools.
10:04But in my studio, there are only computers, like, a lot of computers, like, computer desktop.
10:11So, I sit in front of the computer, like, eight hours a day.
10:14And the process of how I make videos is quite funny, because, actually, I spend, like, maybe 17% of
10:25time actually developing the tools, which is, like, almost zero creativity.
10:30It's, like, dealing with code, trying to build my own personal toolkit.
10:35So, it's, like, building, for me, it's, like, building a tool or set for me to play with.
10:40So, I think, for me, it's kind of, like, different mindset.
10:43Like, in the beginning, it's very rational, very, like, coding and think about the possibility how to make my own
10:50tool.
10:50And after I finish my tools, I start to play with this tool to see how I can, like, generate
10:57image into a very intuitive way.
11:00So, it's kind of, like, going back and forth, like, different mindset.
11:06Yeah.
11:07And in the beginning, like, this series, I try to do, like, motion capture.
11:12Like, if you know, like, how to do motion capture, it's, like, using tracker.
11:16But due to a very limited budget, I can get a very decent tracker.
11:20So, the movement is always weird, like, always handshaking or flying.
11:25And so, in the end, it became this kind of, like, public sheet.
11:29I was using VR headset and, like, manipulating my own body in a, like, different perspective.
11:38Yeah.
11:38And then another thing I would like to ask also to start is a bit, like, I know this is
11:45tricky always to explain creative processes.
11:48But now and then early, when we're giving an interview here, you use the same word.
11:54You say that your process is very intuitive.
11:56And, of course, after working with you for more or less a year and comparing to other artists, I think
12:02it makes all sense to use this word.
12:03But I was wondering, especially, if you could tell us how it is your process with writing.
12:10Because something, I mean, I'm supposing that, you know, everybody here, most people saw at least part of the video.
12:16It really calls my attention how you use text and how it also, in a certain way, the way how
12:24the puppet or the characters in your work in these last works,
12:27how they deal with the audience has always this tutorial vibe.
12:32And you're also a professor.
12:33So anyways, I was wondering, I mean, you give classes, right?
12:37But anyway, but I was wondering, like, tell us how it is this writing process, you know?
12:46Yeah, so I think most of my work, I start with writing.
12:50I write a lot, like, daily, but I never really publish or even share on, like, internet.
12:57It's, like, very personal stuff.
12:59Like, I write a lot.
13:02And sometimes the writing is very connected to, like, learning notes.
13:07I try to learn on internet and I take a lot of notes, like, on my writing software.
13:13And I think in certain point, I start to realize this kind of writing, fragment of writing can be a
13:20story.
13:21And I start to, like, how to say, to transform this writing into a script, which I can perform.
13:29Because sometimes writing a script is quite different.
13:32So I have this kind of process, like, transforming this writing into something verbal,
13:38something I can perform with the puppet.
13:43And the thing you mentioned about tutorial for me is quite important.
13:46This is, like, for my career, I learned most of my skill, most of my technique on the YouTube channel.
13:53And I really enjoy this kind of vibe, like, someone try to, like, teach you something in a very fast
14:00-forward way.
14:01So I think that's why my video always have this kind of, like, tutorial vibe.
14:07And at the same time, I teach at university.
14:10It's, like, well, I'm not a professor. I'm not a lecturer.
14:14You know, sometimes it's quite funny because, like, my work, sometimes I teach.
14:19And sometimes in my class, I'm exactly, like, repeating the same line of my work.
14:26So my students sometimes, like, really confused, like, are you, am I performing or am I really, like, teaching?
14:33It's, like, a really funny moment for me.
14:37And then another thing that I would love you to tell a bit more to everybody here is about,
14:45because you said now about your six last years of work and how, of course,
14:51you started using these tools to create works with this language.
14:55But I was wondering if you could tell everybody a bit of your previous work and also about your education.
15:02Because, because, of course, you also didn't study it formally, moving image or cinema, right?
15:08So you could share, like, what did you study and how your first works that also dealt with animation, you
15:14know,
15:14how do you see them in comparison to this one?
15:19So I studied painting when I was, you know, when I was in university.
15:24And for me, it's almost like a very random decision because I like to draw in.
15:31So I just pick up, like, art school and start learning painting.
15:34And it was, like, a realistic painting school.
15:37And I'm not really into realistic painting during that time.
15:41So I kind of, like, spend most of my time in the library just watching films.
15:46And that's when I started to realize that maybe I want to, like, make films or something.
15:51Yeah. But I'm very, like, I would say, interval, interval, interval person.
15:59I don't want to work with other people.
16:00You know me. I'm always, like, working alone.
16:02And I think, like, film is, like, very always has, like, this kind of big groups, big, you have to
16:09work with a lot of people.
16:11And eventually, like, animation is something, like, I can achieve by myself.
16:15So that's why I start to try to make animation.
16:18And the first piece I made is called, like, walking on the beach.
16:22It's a beach.
16:24It's a really random, like, stop motion I made in the beginning.
16:28But I still find, like, my practice is very connected to that piece.
16:33And after that, I shipped to, like, new media department, which I started making, like, some projection mapping of work.
16:43But then, like, I think, I tried different media, but all the media, all the practice eventually is, like, relating
16:52to image making.
16:53Like, how artists can achieve image making.
16:58So it's always this kind of, like, meta narrative.
17:00Like, how can we make image by tools?
17:03And how is it possible for us to narrative something to image, to video?
17:11Yeah, just sharing an anecdote.
17:13Because I met Ethan by an accident.
17:17I was working at the Mercosur Biennial that happened last year in Porto Alegre.
17:22I see in the south of Brazil.
17:23Freud, this amazing Brazilian artist here, was also in the Biennial.
17:27Andrea, one of the creators of the Mercosur Biennial, she's here somewhere.
17:30I don't know, but she was there in the back.
17:32But anyway, over there.
17:35Juca, the designer, is there also.
17:36And then what happened, just to share, I mean, this thing with your practice, right?
17:41I was researching artists for the Biennial.
17:43Then I saw the list of artists that were part of the last Type A Biennial.
17:46Not this one, the previous one in 2023.
17:49And I Googled Yifan's name.
17:52I saw his Instagram, I think.
17:54Got absolutely crazy.
17:55And I saw some stuff on YouTube also.
17:57I don't remember if I found your email or if I dropped a message via Instagram.
18:02And then we had a studio visit.
18:04And in the studio visit, it was very funny because Yifan, he shared a portfolio.
18:08And the portfolio had only two videos.
18:11And when I saw his CV, he was like, this guy finished university like 10 years ago.
18:16And I was like, what happened between when you finished university and now?
18:19And then he sent me something via email.
18:21Like, no, I mean, the stuff I did before, it was very different than this.
18:25Now I'm in this research.
18:27And I'm like, okay, but can you share with me the stuff you did before?
18:30And then he shared this list of links of many amazing works.
18:33They're all here in our book.
18:36We'll talk about it later.
18:38Don't fall.
18:38So, they had video mapping.
18:42They had this first work called Walking on a Beach.
18:44And it's really fascinating.
18:45And I hope one day, of course, Yifan, certainly he will have a show where he's able to mix the
18:51old work and the new stuff.
18:53Because lots of elements are there.
18:55The importance of humor, the certain degree of violence, a certain nonsense in some situations.
19:02So, for example, Walking on a Beach is all stop motion made with props.
19:06But there are three narratives and there are three moments.
19:09And at the end of each narrative, there's a moment where the audience is supposed to choose A, B or
19:13C.
19:14And I think in all the three narratives, there's always a C option, but not wrong.
19:18So, anyway, the technology, how the image is made is very different than here.
19:23But existentially, I mean, you're interested in like humor and questioning image and creating broken narratives.
19:29It's in all of them.
19:30And also in the video mappings you did because they were very complex.
19:33There were always a big like set design environment and the video mapping over these elements.
19:39So, anyway, I'm only telling this because I think it's important to realize how, of course, how solid your research
19:48is.
19:49And how we've been doing this for a long time.
19:51Even though, of course, now you are in this new media moment, as you say.
19:56I would like to ask you now about your move to Europe.
20:01Because what happened also is that you entered first in Rijks Academy.
20:04And then a few months later, you got invited by the Taipei Fan Arts Museum to represent Taiwan.
20:10Taiwan, number one, always.
20:12But I was wondering, since every country works in a different way, how, I mean, first, why did you decide
20:19to go to the Rijks Academy?
20:21How's it going there also?
20:23And how was this process into representing Taiwan?
20:27How does it work in the Taipei Fan Arts Museum?
20:33So, I think back in 2019, I did a residency in Netherlands, in Oysterweig.
20:40It's a ceramic residency, which seems really random for me.
20:45And during that time, I visited the open studio of Rijks Academy.
20:48And I really enjoyed the vibe and seeing all different artists from different countries to gather there and learn to
20:57each other.
20:58So, I really put it in mind, like, I want to apply, like, one day.
21:02And, like, I think I spend, like, most of my time, like, grew up in Taiwan.
21:08So, for me, like, spending two years in Rijks Academy is very, like, important experience.
21:14Like, knowing the different, how to say, like, different cultural variety of languages.
21:23Okay.
21:24Yeah.
21:25So, it's, like, definitely a very important, like, process of my life.
21:28Yeah.
21:29And, like, to do the Venice for me is also very, like, I didn't expect.
21:35Like, the former director just gave me a phone call.
21:37He didn't know I'm in Amsterdam.
21:39So, he gave me a phone call, like, four in the morning.
21:41So, I was, like, very sleepy and, like, it feels really unrealistic.
21:46Yes.
21:48And, you know, I think it's a very good opportunity for me to, like, rethink the relationship of my practice
21:58in Taiwan.
21:59Because, like I mentioned before, I'm, like, very intuitive artist.
22:03Sometimes I don't think too much while I create.
22:06But I think this is a very treasured moment to think, like, what is behind this intuitive manner?
22:12I mean, what is the black humor came from?
22:15Where is the desire and fear behind my practice?
22:20So, yeah.
22:22That's it.
22:24Yeah.
22:24And then there's one thing that is always very specific about the participation of Taiwan in the Venice Biennial, the
22:31Visual Arts Biennial, the Architecture Biennial.
22:32That is the use of this space where you are, the Palacio delle Prigioni, which is a prison directly related
22:39to the Palazzo del Cali.
22:40And, of course, you have this bridge.
22:42I'm always having, to me, it's always hard to say this word in English, but the bridge of sites, right,
22:46that is here.
22:47I mean, it's the place where people, it has this name, because it was a place where people used to
22:53see the sky and the city before coming here.
22:56And most of them dying here because the conditions here are awful.
22:59And then something, perhaps we can move to the exhibition already, start talking a bit.
23:05If I find it's about, like, how was the initial process of thinking for an exhibition, of thinking about an
23:11exhibition for this space?
23:13Because this is the first time also, if I'm not wrong, that you have a work that's that site specific.
23:18And, of course, I'm coming to the Venice Biennial in the last six editions, I saw many exhibitions here.
23:23And I think it's one of the first times where the artwork, you know, deals quoting the space inside itself.
23:31So, when you got the phone call at 4am, what were the first ideas that crossed your mind about, like,
23:39how to respond to the space?
23:43Yeah, I think for every single show I have, I always do, like, how do you say, I always model
23:53a space, like, special space where I'm going to show.
23:56So, the first thing I came here for the site visit is, like, I document all the building, like, measurement
24:03of the building, and I build, like, a digital, how to say, a virtual space in my computer to see
24:10how I can arrange my artwork.
24:12And after I build this Daniel, like, the idea came up, like, why don't I just, like, shoot the video
24:20inside the model since I already have the environment?
24:23Yeah, so, for me, I never have a chance to really do a site-specific work, and also, like, since
24:32the place is a prison, and, like, my work always has this vibe of, like, trapping, like, the character was
24:38trapping somewhere.
24:39So, I think having a site-specific work inside of this prison is, like, really matched the vibe.
24:45So, in the work, you can actually feel the character is always, like, trapping.
24:50You always, like, try to make an animation inside of this prison.
24:56And for me, it's quite funny because, like, I visited this site for two times.
25:01Like, the first time I came, I modeled everything, and I spent a lot of time inside a space in
25:07my computer, like, virtually.
25:08So, I'm, like, very familiar with every detail.
25:11But after, like, two years, I come here again, I start to notice, like, all the tiny details are actually
25:16quite different.
25:17So, for me, it's, like, very weird experience. Like, it seems I know this place so much, but it still
25:22feels very alien.
25:24Alien?
25:25Yes.
25:26And also, the funny thing is, like, because I work really fast, I model everything, like, really fast.
25:31So, after I came here, I actually remodeled the venue a lot, like, adding a lot of, like, details.
25:37I enjoy doing this kind of, like, tiny stuff.
25:43Yeah, and then we came together here, when? This was September.
25:48Yeah, we came in September. And then, of course, and then already in September, Ifan had this idea,
25:53but then this is something we discuss a lot online, of not, I mean, since it's, of course, since we
25:59have this whole space,
26:00since we have the amazing structure that Taipei Fan Arts Museum gave us, and I'm not saying because everybody's here,
26:06I mean, it's really true.
26:07It's a privilege to work with everybody from the Taipei Fan Arts Museum because you have a nice budget, you
26:14have structure, you have freedom, etc., etc.
26:16We were discussing how it was important to, since he works mostly with moving image, but try to do an
26:23exhibition
26:24where it was not only the moving image that could have other elements. And also, when we came here together,
26:30I remember coming up from the stairs and looking at the window and saying, ah, there's an amazing space to
26:35put a video.
26:36Why don't we think about not only having a big thing inside, but also some stuff spread around?
26:42And then, of course, his whole process as an artist and mine as a creator started to think about these
26:49elements.
26:50But one idea that you had since the beginning was this amazing idea of having a space for the audience
26:56to sit.
26:57Because also it's a big problem in any biennial format. I mean, and sometimes I don't think, I mean, I
27:03don't think all creators discuss this, but it's an issue to create a structure for people to spend time watching
27:09stuff, especially because that was the idea since the beginning when the videos, they don't have a short length.
27:17And then I think I would love to, if you, I don't know, could bring a bit how this idea
27:21of the fragmented body came.
27:24Because I remember this was already in your first or second sketch, but I don't remember if we discussed properly.
27:31I mean, I know everything's very intuitive, but I'm a Capricorn, sorry. So, I mean, things sometimes, you know, we
27:36need to talk directly.
27:38How this idea of having this fragmented body and first forming them in seats came to you?
27:45Yeah, I think since beginning, I think about like making a long video.
27:50And one thing is showing a long video in the museum or galleries, like, people need seats, you know, because
27:56they need to feel comfortable.
27:58So I think in the beginning, I'm already thinking about like how I make an environment for audience to lay
28:04down to like enjoy the space.
28:07And all things like every time I visit Venice, my phone die every time.
28:12So it's like smart to have a charger for them to charge at the same time to enjoy the video.
28:18And I think one thing, one thing I appreciate like video art is like, it's very different from cinema.
28:24Because like cinema, the audience always trapped inside the black box.
28:31But in the gallery or in the museums, like the audience have their freedom of their body to move the
28:38body.
28:38Yeah. And for me, that's very important part is like the audience actually have their own body to witness the
28:45video.
28:46And it's their decision to stay or leave. I think it's very important for me.
28:52That's why also my film never have a like starting point or ending point.
28:56It's always like a loop and the audience can join with any time they want.
29:03Yeah. And then something that we were discussing here, and I think only crossed my mind after the exhibition was
29:08finished regarding the position of the works and all of this,
29:11is that of course, I mean, here, not only in Italy, but here in Italy, I mean, Greece also have
29:16this, have this tradition of like garden of sculptures.
29:19So the idea of the fragments and antiquities. And then one day I came here to this space, like, wow,
29:25looks like, I don't know, many museums.
29:28I have this big fragments and here looks like a certain type of like fictional, varnicological space where the audience
29:37can see it
29:38and where the audience can charge your phones or can sleep. And at the same time, how this was integrated
29:44into the narrative of the main video.
29:48But I would love also if you could tell us a bit about, I mean, two things. How was this
29:54process of collaborating with this company in Taiwan that did the 3D pieces?
30:00Because they all came from there. They were all fragmented. Then this company came here and they reinstall everything here.
30:07And also, if you could tell us a bit about this process of making these short videos. This one you
30:14have in the stairs and the other one you have in the back of the head.
30:18With something that called my attention today, being a creator, and I saw some VIP people here visiting, et cetera.
30:25Some people, they stay in the main room. They watch the entire video. They go to the other rooms and
30:29do like this.
30:30They see the face. They see something at the wall and they go back because they also have this speed
30:35of vanish.
30:35Some people, they didn't realize there was a cell phone behind and some people, they don't get close to the
30:41Polaroid.
30:42But anyway, but I was wondering how you had this idea, of course, of, you know, how was this process
30:47of composing these other animations?
30:50Because I know you did them quite fast and here in Venice already, right? Yeah.
30:57In fact, like the two videos you saw, like the small video was like finished maybe a week before, like
31:04just after I arrived in Venice.
31:06I changed everything because I worked really fast. Yeah. So for the video back, like behind the hat, it's like
31:14there's a cell phone and someone was like playing this kind of like cut trip or something like a scam
31:20or something.
31:21And I think it's like playing a game with the audience. Like you want the audience to guess like where
31:27is the eye or something.
31:28And I think for me, it's a very important metaphor because like image making actually came from magic, actually came
31:35from tricks.
31:36And it's always like a tricks. So always there's not nothing to play with. It's always like try to trick
31:43the audience.
31:46And for another piece, like from the entrance, there's also, I think it's more like an introduction for the audience
31:53to realize like what I do, like a puppetry,
31:56because you're going to see like the green, like man in the green suit behind it, doing this kind of
32:01puppetry and you play with the window, like the, how do you say the mist or something to try to
32:07dry up, draw on the mist.
32:08Yeah. So I think it's like creating this pace for audience to like enjoy, to going through the exhibition, like
32:17slowly to enjoy the whole film. Yes.
32:20Oh, sculptures. Yes. To be honest, I never did like sculptures so huge before.
32:28So the way I created this sculpture was actually, I do modeling stuff on my computer.
32:34And since the video is about like skill, like there's always like big puppet controlling the small puppet and small
32:40puppet controlling another smaller puppet.
32:42So it feels like if I put some like really huge sculpture in the space, the audience somehow feels like
32:50they are a small puppet, like sitting on the big hand or something.
32:54Yeah. So the process was like, I do all the modeling on my computer.
32:59And there's an amazing company in Taiwan, they 3D print everything and we ship it here.
33:04But since the gate is like super tiny, we have to cut it into small pieces and assemble in here.
33:10Yeah. Which is amazing.
33:14Yeah. And then I think that, for example, if you think from the LED panel to the cell phone, to
33:20the Polaroid, to this other model of screen over there,
33:24I think we can talk a bit about the name of the exhibition, that is the Screen Melancholy.
33:28So since the beginning also, I mean, we had this challenge of giving a title to the project.
33:35And at the same time, of course, due to some specific timings of how the Venice Biennial works,
33:41all the pavilions, all the nations need to share everything in advance.
33:45So it was not like, you know, other projects that we did before in our respective careers,
33:51where I could, I don't know, two weeks before decide a title.
33:55But then in the middle of the process, since there was this idea of not having a single work and
34:00have other works,
34:01and I was at the time saying, hey, perhaps you should play with other formats of image,
34:05like something medium, something small, etc.
34:08If I came with the amazing idea of the Polaroid also, this word screen was always like this in my
34:14mind.
34:16But I think it was more than in English, just like everything that I do almost.
34:21It came in Portuguese, the word tela that we use a lot.
34:25Talk about, you know, like cell phone screen and other things.
34:28But at the same time, in Portuguese especially, we use the word janela, window.
34:34It's always a way to play not only with the window of the computer, but also the architectural window.
34:40And then all of these things were like around my brain.
34:43And then one day I remember that the word melancholy came,
34:47because I think that's something that caused my attention in Nifan's practice in general,
34:51from the first work to this more, to this new one,
34:55that I feel that the work has a very encyclopedic desire,
35:00which I totally identify as a human being, an art historian, etc.
35:05So I think it's a very iconophilic work.
35:08I think Nifan, just like perhaps all of us here that, anyway,
35:12that take the decision to visit Venice in the preview,
35:15I think are all in different ways. I think they're two images.
35:18But I think that not only image, I think his practice is very,
35:22very, the works are always like trying to answer the different content
35:26and create links between them. Some more linear,
35:30other very nonlinear, a bit dada, a bit nonsense.
35:34But there's a certain like melting pot of references, of possibilities,
35:39of many layers of images and relations, etc, etc.
35:43Lots of games with words also.
35:45So all the time, instead of the word encyclopedic,
35:50the word melancholy came in the sense of how Freud, for example,
35:54wrote about melancholy and how many artists tried to transform melancholy
35:57in an image like Albert Züder, for example, the famous, you know,
36:01German painter, this idea that you are there trying to study,
36:06to understand life, things, the universe.
36:09But at the same time, one life is not enough.
36:12There's always something that you're going to miss.
36:14And then, of course, the knowledge, the big capital K,
36:18is bigger than all of us together here in this room.
36:21So I feel the puppets and this tutorial mode are always touching this.
36:26And I feel also that, of course, I mean, after we became friends,
36:31they started hanging around together, etc.
36:33I feel this curiosity you have that I think I also have in a different way,
36:37of course, is something that is contained in this idea of melancholy.
36:41So in a certain way, it's like all the screens in the project
36:45and this big melancholy around it.
36:47And then having this in mind, I mean, I took some notes here
36:51to ask you some specific things.
36:53I'd love to ask you about less about the making of the work,
36:57but more about the poetics or the existential desire around the work.
37:01Because this work specifically, I've watched, I think, I don't know,
37:0510 times during these days after, of course, you corrected the color, etc., etc.
37:11And I think that there are certain lots of moments
37:14that keep thinking about death in this work.
37:16For example, the low poly model and this thing of like,
37:19I have style, kids like me, etc.
37:22But in a certain way, is it disappearing or not?
37:27There's also some moments that make reference to war, also to violence,
37:32this tank that appears and it's AI and make this joke between,
37:35oh, I'm so sorry, it's the only AI moment.
37:39So I was wondering, for example, if this idea of finitude,
37:43this idea of ending, this idea of death specifically,
37:46if you agree if it's something that in a certain way ghosts this narrative or not.
37:51Even, for example, as we were joking all the time,
37:54these so popular moments between the AI and the organs,
37:58and they're always like on a family dinner discussing their relationship
38:02and trying to be okay together.
38:04There's always, I feel that there are lots of moments
38:07when they seem to be battling again the idea of ending something, you know?
38:13Yeah, so I think definitely death and fear is a very important part in this film.
38:22Actually, I think making video itself is very connected to the idea of death,
38:29because most of the video ends.
38:32Even, although it's a loop, it still has a timeline.
38:35It's always linear.
38:37So as a director or artist, when you're creating a video,
38:42you couldn't think about, you always think about how to end this video.
38:47And it's really connected to how to end your life.
38:50It's quite similar for me.
38:51So I think in this film, it always echoes this kind of topic,
38:56like how death, the fear of death,
38:58and how it's also about like destination about human beings,
39:03because it talks about like noise, the pattern of future or something.
39:07So yeah, I think it's a very important element in my films.
39:13In another way, I think like the character always talk this topic in the very like reckless manner,
39:20the very like, I would say black human way.
39:22So I think the way I like to play with the audience is like,
39:27sometimes he tries to combat a very heavy topic like war or something,
39:31but immediately he like interrupts you like at like two seconds after.
39:37And I think this kind of experience was actually quite similar to like scrolling,
39:42you know, you saw something horrible in the first scroll,
39:46and like two seconds after you saw something like very cheerful or something.
39:50Yeah, so I think for me making a film is this kind of game,
39:55like playing with the audience.
39:56Sometimes like something horrible happened,
39:58but two seconds after it's like something funny happened.
40:01And the audience kind of like confused, like should I be happy or should I be sad?
40:05And also like in the end, the, I think it's very important for me is like the character cries.
40:12Like think about the tears generated by AI, but we think about like,
40:17is this tears like fake, um, how do you say like,
40:25like,
40:26like do I cry authentically is authentic enough?
40:29Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Imagine like preparing, uh, opening speech.
40:33Like everybody feels like, wow, this speech is like so touching,
40:37but in the end they said, oh, sorry, this speech was provided by Gemini or ChatGBT.
40:41Like this kind of situation. I really enjoy this kind of like,
40:45yeah, like writing a sorry letter to your family,
40:48but that was actually came from ChatGBT or something.
40:51So this kind of situation I enjoy a lot.
40:53It's like, think about it.
40:56It's all about the magic, uh, and the trick, uh, element with the audience.
41:02I think we can open for questions and then I talk about the book later.
41:07Uh, anyone has any question for Mr. Ethan?
41:12All right.
41:13Yes. And due to the limited time,
41:15maybe we can have two to three at most questions.
41:19Yes. Great. Probably.
41:20Who will go first? The voice open.
41:22Okay.
41:25Hi, um, I have a couple of questions actually, but I'll keep it short.
41:29So you, uh, technically I was wondering which type of, um, uh, engine did you use?
41:35And, uh, because you mentioned the motion capture suits,
41:39which are very unstable often.
41:40Um, did you use AI for the motion capturing of the puppet or for the story
41:45or for which part exactly I'd be interested?
41:49Um, yeah, that's for now.
41:54Yeah. So, so what engine I'm using is called Unreal Engine.
41:57Yeah. It's from, from Epic. Yeah.
41:59And it's actually the, my previous work, um, talks about Unreal Engine a lot.
42:03It's like how I love it and how I hate it at the same time.
42:06Yeah. And the, the way I do like motion capture is I,
42:09I actually use it quite traditional ways.
42:11Like, um, with a headset and two controller.
42:14So it's without any AI, like without any AI solving.
42:19Yeah. So there are two parts of this film is use AI.
42:24One is going to happen in maybe 10 seconds or something.
42:28So it's like very obvious.
42:29The tank like running into the building.
42:31Another one is a tier.
42:33So the way like I use AI, the audience always knows, okay, this is AI.
42:37Is this fake or something?
42:41Okay.
42:41One more second.
42:42No worries.
42:45Yes.
42:45I have a question about the concept of the puppetry because I think that, um,
42:50people who have been making animations and playing with those engines the last years,
42:54I've been also very much enjoying this process, right?
42:56Of like creating lights and life from just an engine, right?
43:00Um, how do you think the concept of the puppet is being challenged nowadays?
43:05Like all these processes can be automated, like who's becoming the puppets?
43:10All right.
43:11Yeah.
43:11Because I think that what I see in this work and also what I see about the sculptural aspect
43:15of it is that we can really still see this idea of like the human somehow, you know,
43:20orchestrating the machine, but how do you see that being developed?
43:24And do you think it's also going to influence the way you think about the puppets are,
43:29will produce puppets?
43:30Yeah.
43:31I think I use the word puppet.
43:33Um, but one thing like, it's actually some audience told me is like the way puppetry works,
43:41you always see the puppet master behind the puppet.
43:45And like, for example, the puppet here, and I'll be like manipulating like this.
43:49But when I work, they actually kind of reverse.
43:51I always work like, like facing the puppet.
43:55So I, so for me, it's very important.
43:58It's like the puppet is not for like performing for other audience.
44:02It's like a tool for me to play with myself.
44:04So I often connect this kind of like, um, practice was very like, um, I would say like
44:11childhood practice where like you're playing with Lego or something.
44:15You always build things, you always build mechanics and you play the Lego with yourself.
44:20So it's for me, it's very personal things like bringing a, um, a theater for yourself to rehearsal something.
44:28You know?
44:28So for me, although I use the word puppet, for me, it's more like a toy or the rehearsal or
44:35something like I'm playing for myself.
44:38So the audience will actually, it's actually someone like a third person, like having a look from the side, like
44:45what's happening.
44:46But I'm not performing for the audience while I do the performance.
44:52I don't think I answered your question.
44:58So the very last question, who would like to have this opportunity?
45:04Okay.
45:04You've got this.
45:07Uh, I will also try to keep it short.
45:09But I just have one question about the puppet.
45:12Um, because it has this, another question about the puppet.
45:15Um, it has this like a chalk body paint kind of texture and I was always wondering what was the
45:21idea behind that.
45:22Okay.
45:24So, so the way I, um, I model the puppet or 3D model came from like different, but like for
45:31the head, I do like a really realistic 3D scanning of my, my own head.
45:35And for the body, I actually purchased like a, like a body on the internet.
45:39So I assembled everything together to get this puppet.
45:42And for me, like using, uh, like a skin tone puppet in, in the, it's always have to deal with
45:50like very practical problems.
45:53Like the whole, how do you say, um,
45:58Horrifying?
45:59Uh, no, it's like something about value.
46:04What is the English term?
46:05This is like, it's too real.
46:06It's between realistic and like fake.
46:09So it feels like something wrong.
46:10Yeah.
46:11Thank you very much.
46:13Yeah.
46:14So the way I deal with this form was like actually painting with a, like it's a virtual plane.
46:19And in our hand, I think it's kind of process, um, a process of what you have to say, like
46:24possession or something.
46:27You turn yourself into another person, not a look.
46:30So yeah.
46:31And I think it's part of the almost like ceremony or something.
46:35It's like into, into another person.
46:40Okay.
46:41Thanks for your questions.
46:42Uh, just to, to finish, uh, I thought it was also interesting to talk about our publication.
46:49So, um, one idea that came during the process of working together is that of course we had the budget
46:56to do a publication related to the exhibition here.
46:59But then we thought it would be much cooler instead of doing a publication only related to the show to
47:04do something that talks about Ethan's practice.
47:06So this is our amazing book that he's going to show you guys.
47:10You can show the cover.
47:11That's a whole thing with, no, show the cover, man, the, the, the, the things that do like this, like
47:15this, then.
47:19Yeah.
47:20Anyway, so we, we hired these amazing guys from Taiwan.
47:24They're not here called sample animal.
47:26If you look at their Instagram, the work is amazing.
47:29They don't work only with visual arts.
47:31They also work with music, with pop culture in general.
47:34And then we had this idea of, we didn't have the idea actually.
47:38I mean, we also hire another amazing human being that perhaps isn't here.
47:41I don't know if Shaoba is here.
47:44She's not here.
47:45She's, she's, where's Shaoba?
47:46Where's it over?
47:47No, not here.
47:48Anyway.
47:49But she edited this book.
47:52She runs a very interesting publishing company in Taiwan called DMP Editions, right?
48:00Shaoba?
48:00Yeah.
48:01And then thinking together, we had this idea of like, okay, let's have info about the new work,
48:06but let's have an interview.
48:08So I interviewed Yifan.
48:09I did a text also in the end.
48:11We have the info about all the work he did until now, but the coolest part I think is
48:16that this idea that Shaoba had of like having a series of keywords in the end.
48:22So we have a group of keywords.
48:25I mean, some Yifan suggested, most of them he suggested, other ones I came to, also other
48:30ones Shaoba suggested.
48:31And then basically most of the texts are by Yifan, but I contributed with some of them.
48:35And so basically through the keywords like windows, eyeballs, machinima, physical body, fingers,
48:41blah.
48:42We have a group of images from different works.
48:45So it becomes in a certain way, like an atlas regarded to his practice.
48:51And also, I don't know, a publication that's quite enjoyable for the audience to see and even, you know, play
48:57with it.
48:58So it's not a heavy textual book.
49:03And then besides the publication that is quite gorgeous, actually, we also had this idea regarding the public programs of,
49:13I mean, what could we do as a public programs?
49:15We didn't think it would make sense to do something like this all the time, like a seminar or a
49:20big talk or something that sounds very academic in the bad way of academic because, you know, university is the
49:29best.
49:30But anyway, you can understand what I had, what I'm trying to say.
49:33And then it was more interesting to have a live program.
49:36And then by an accident, also, I think it happened that Yifan saw this amazing artist from South Korea, Angel
49:42Hong.
49:43And then she has one specific performance that she directs that we thought was very interesting to have here happening
49:50inside the pavilion.
49:52And at the same time, creating a certain type of echo regarding their both practices.
49:58So we're really happy to have her here.
50:01Yisoo is the name of the performer that's going to perform the work in a few minutes.
50:05And then we thought also it would be nice, you know, to don't have everything, the public programs, the publication,
50:13focus on Yifan's practice, but also share the stage a bit.
50:17But yeah, I mean, as an introduction of this whole amazing experience, I think more or less that's it.
50:25Again, we're very thankful to have you all here.
50:27We know how these days in fantasy are hectic.
50:30So we feel very thankful for having, for you guys choosing to be here with us.
50:36Again, Yifan, I have no words.
50:39Thanks for everything.
50:41I think we should also thank everybody at the Taipei Fan Arts Museum.
50:44I won't say names because I'm going to forget of someone.
50:48So you guys know who you are.
50:50You guys have been amazing.
50:51You guys have been the best professionals ever.
50:55So without you, this whole thing wouldn't exist.
50:57What do you want to say, my friend?
51:04Okay, so let's extend our sincere thanks to the artist, Mr. Li Yifan, and the curator, Mr. Hapa El-Poseka,
51:11for their in-depth sharing.
51:12This brings us to the closing of our afternoon program and later the opening ceremony and also the press conference
51:20will commence at 6 o'clock.
51:22We sincerely invite you to join us later in the evening.
51:25Before then, shortly at 5 o'clock in the exhibition space, the opening performance will be presented by performance artist,
51:33Anju Hong, and also Yisoo Kim Lee.
51:36Titled, She Seemed Devastated When I Was Weeping With Joy.
51:40And so please welcome to the exhibition space and enjoy our performance.
51:55Bye.
51:56Bye.
51:58Bye.
52:00Bye.
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