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00:01Tonight, after insisting the U.S. is close to a deal with Iran, the president says he'll start bombing them
00:07again.
00:08They keep playing us for suckers.
00:10Plus, Republicans sound the alarm after inflation hits the highest pace in three years.
00:15We need some relief.
00:17People are really feeling it.
00:18Well, everybody's having some problems.
00:19I don't think people have a great deal of confidence in any of us right now.
00:22Their party's leader disagrees.
00:24Also, as the winning Democrat in Maine kicks off his midterm race, Donald Trump unleashes on Graham Plattner.
00:32He's a thug.
00:33I mean, he's worse than any human being that's ever run for office, probably.
00:37And infighting, blame, and spin.
00:41Stunning new reporting on the administration's freakout over the Epstein files, including one official calling it Trump's Iran Contra.
00:49Live at the table, Tara Setmeyer, Horace Cooper, Anna Navarro, Noah Rothman, and Camille Foster.
00:57Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here they do.
01:14Good evening.
01:15I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
01:16Tonight, a major escalation.
01:18The U.S. has launched a new wave of strikes against Iran, as talks between the two sides continue to
01:23stall.
01:24This latest round, finishing up just a short time ago,
01:27The Pentagon says that the attacks are in response to Tehran's unwarranted and continued aggression.
01:33Trump had this warning, had this warning, warned this could happen, writing on social media that Iran is taking too
01:41long to negotiate a deal,
01:43and that it'll have to pay the price.
01:45And his frustrations came to a head today, as he bemoaned the slow-going pace of talks.
01:52I've been working with Iran for a number of months, and it was just tap, tap, tap.
02:00I don't know what they're doing.
02:01We were really close to a deal, but they keep tapping us along.
02:04They keep playing us for suckers.
02:06We have a fully negotiated, but they're tapping and tapping.
02:09And I said, all right, let's give them a couple of more days.
02:11They're tapping because it's a meaningful paper.
02:17It's a sharp change in tone from the president, who for months now has insisted that a deal is right
02:22around the corner.
02:24We have points, major points of agreement.
02:28I would say almost all points of agreement.
02:30And they want to make a deal so badly.
02:31You have no idea how badly they want to make a deal.
02:34Could you first see a deal in Iran this upcoming week?
02:36I do see a deal in Iran, yeah.
02:39Most of the points are already negotiated and agreed to.
02:43We're very close to making a deal.
02:45We were very close to a deal.
02:46I don't think there are any sticking points.
02:49We're very close to having a very, very good, strong, powerful deal.
02:54The frustration is starting to show, and Trump is putting more red lines on the table, more ultimatums.
02:59And it seems to me that it's not disconnected from the economic news that we got today, which is that
03:04inflation has spiked once again, now at 4.2% annually for the month of May.
03:11It is having an impact on the economy.
03:14And even Trump's own timeline, we've blown past that so many times at this point.
03:19He's starting to show his frustration.
03:21Well, the president is showing his frustration because the economic conditions are applying political pressure to him.
03:26But the economic conditions are applying political pressure to the Iranian regime, too.
03:29They're struggling under this blockade, which probably should have been part of the kinetic phase of these operations from the
03:35start.
03:36I'm surprised that the president called them off when he did.
03:38He said that he had spoken with his Iranian counterparts and this promised wave of strikes,
03:43which both he and the Secretary of Defense said would be very robust and sustained and ongoing in order to
03:49create coercive conditions for diplomacy, a breakthrough in diplomacy.
03:53And then they called it back, which suggests to me that they're not going to get the kind of breakthrough
03:58that they want.
03:58They want to apply kinetic pressure to this regime and to particularly to the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps components that
04:07are being very hardline, very recalcitrant.
04:10And, yeah, this is the straight part of these strikes.
04:13Most of these strikes were focused on the Hormuz region.
04:15This is you're talking about today's strikes because actually I'm listening to you and I'm like, well, you could have
04:20been applied three months ago.
04:21It could have been applied to any number of junctures in this conflict over the last three months.
04:25The strikes on the Hormuz region, this looked like to me the beginnings of the straight clearing operation that this
04:30administration needs because that is the last linchpin in this campaign.
04:34But to your point, I mean, they're not really doing that.
04:39Like, they're not really going that far.
04:41Trump keeps saying that this is the last straw.
04:45If they don't do this by tomorrow, then.
04:47And then, but then he keeps saying that over and over again.
04:50So the Iranians are basically like, okay, we'll call your bluff.
04:53Listen, you cannot execute foreign policy by temper tantrum.
04:59That's what Trump is doing.
05:00This is constant temper tantrums because he's not getting his way.
05:02The Iranian regime isn't House Republicans.
05:06Donald Trump is not used to people who are not going to just bow to his will when he wants
05:12to.
05:12He's used to getting his way.
05:14The Iranians are a very complex, formidable opponent.
05:17They have been at this for decades and they have patience and they don't have a democracy where they have
05:23to answer to the political pressures of the citizenry.
05:27That's what happens when you're negotiating with an authoritarian dictatorship that's ruled by mullahs.
05:32So, you know, this is embarrassing for Donald Trump and it's embarrassing for the Americans because for us as a
05:39country, looking at the president of the United States blowing past, you know, all of these different deadlines and making
05:46these, you know, veiled threats.
05:48CNN did a compilation.
05:49What was it, 38 times?
05:50He said we were almost there for a deal.
05:53We've got a deal.
05:54Well, it's just right around the corner.
05:55I mean, it feels like it's transportation infrastructure week again.
05:58Two weeks.
05:59So it'll be two weeks.
06:00This is real.
06:01These are real world consequences.
06:03And the downstream effect of this, not only for our economy, but politically in this country, is, you know, it's,
06:09it's, he's feeling the heat on this and it's embarrassing.
06:11I got to tell you, I'm less embarrassed today than I was 24 hours ago.
06:15Are you really?
06:15The president is actually, yes.
06:16Well, aren't you?
06:17You just said that it's, well, Terry, you just said it's really embarrassing that the president makes threats and doesn't
06:21act on them.
06:21Yes, but this is, this isn't a coherent strategy.
06:24This isn't a coherent strategy.
06:25Launching bombs because you can.
06:26But if both of these are embarrassing.
06:27But listen, going on, uh, going on truth social and saying that he's going to wipe away that civilization.
06:34That he's going to bomb the shit out of them.
06:37This is just bad.
06:38It's bad because it, it, it began, you know, four months ago.
06:42It was supposed to last two weeks.
06:44There was supposed to be regime change.
06:46Donald Trump has found out that, that the Iranian mullahs are not Delcey Rodriguez in Venezuela.
06:52He's not going to find somebody that he can work with.
06:55I desperately want this to be over.
06:56I want this to be over in a way that the United States got something out of all of the
07:01pain that we have sustained for the last few months.
07:04But I fear that the Iranians have figured out that there are elections here in five months.
07:11And that because of the economic pressure, that then turns into political pressure.
07:16And there's elections and people want this over.
07:17It sounds like you would like more kinetic operations, more attacks in order to get the outcome.
07:22I want a, I want a peace deal.
07:23I actually want a peace deal.
07:24And I don't think, I think this, I think this week has not been, I mean, this is a weird
07:29way to get to a, get to a peace deal, right?
07:31I don't think so.
07:32With Israel bombing and Iran bombing and now the U.S. bombing.
07:36I think that's precisely how you get to a peace deal.
07:37Go ahead, Horace.
07:38A couple observations.
07:40One is that the people that are being negotiated with in Iran are sending a signal that is different
07:48from the people who are engaging in the strikes and wanting to continue the hostilities.
07:55It is very, very likely that after today's round, all that happened was that those people called in and said,
08:03please, we're ready.
08:06We want to talk.
08:07And we think we can convince them.
08:08The challenge is, as my father used to demonstrate, he gave you two tries.
08:22And after that, there was violence.
08:24What we need to see, what we need to see is that same attitude that Billy Cooper had with child
08:34discipline with the Iranians.
08:36We need to continue what was started this morning and it needs to continue.
08:41We are well past that.
08:43Trump has given them tries.
08:46He's called it off.
08:47He's given them more tries, called off of the threats, given them more tries, called off the threats.
08:52This has happened many times at this point.
08:54It sounds like you really want us to go forward with this kinetic action.
08:57Which, if that's true, sign me up.
09:00But actually, here's what I'm going to put on the table, is I actually think that the threat of force
09:07is no longer working in this conflict.
09:09It's chicken little now.
09:10It's because now the Iranians are like, well, we'll take some blows and we still won't have to give up
09:16our nukes and we'll just keep going.
09:18The strait will be closed.
09:19The leverage that we have is still there.
09:21And we don't have to make a deal.
09:23So I don't think, you guys keep saying more attacks, but I'm like, the attacks also are not working.
09:30So there's also a consequence of these kinetic actions, is that we are depleting our arsenal.
09:38Our weapons are at levels that are concerning to a lot of folks in the military.
09:42This is the reason for a trillion dollar defense budget, for things like this.
09:46No, this is why you don't decide to just launch bombs and get into kinetic activity when you don't have
09:53a long-term plan.
09:54This is why you don't keep our men and women deployed, forward deployed with an unlimited amount of time just
10:02because Donald Trump feels like it.
10:04And then, oh, maybe we will, maybe we won't.
10:05This is no way to behave as commander in chief with something this important.
10:09Let me just play this.
10:10This is the, you know, Trump is confronted with the inflation numbers today, which are a direct result of this
10:16war.
10:16And here's how he responded, which, frankly, I will say will probably live in infamy.
10:21Listen.
10:23Are you concerned, Mr. President, about the latest inflation number, which came out this morning?
10:28Could that be a hit?
10:29No, I love it.
10:29The numbers were trying to try and hold the process.
10:31You know what I really love?
10:32I love the inflation.
10:33Oh, when the war is over?
10:35Yes.
10:36It's coming down.
10:37I know you can't.
10:37It's going to come down like a rock.
10:41I love this shit.
10:43So, yeah, I mean, ad makers are busy.
10:45Oh, yeah.
10:45They're working.
10:46And I, but I also think that just like the promises about a deal being on the horizon,
10:52Trump's promises about the gas prices are going to fall like a rock are also being received by the American
10:58people as, you know, just the boy who cried wolf.
11:02You're just always saying the thing over and over.
11:04Look at the wolf.
11:04Let me let Camille have a word.
11:05Well, it's the messaging.
11:06And I actually have a question for you and for you, Noah, that it's the messaging that is most disconcerting.
11:12Certainly that response to the inflation to the inflation question is disconcerting.
11:17But it's kind of a pieces with the way the negotiations have been conducting.
11:21We've seen reporting in recent days about just how schizophrenic the administration has been.
11:26You've got the negotiators who are saying one thing to their counterparts in Iran.
11:29And then the president gets the they get back to the president.
11:32The president changes the terms on them in the last moment.
11:34To the extent you're conducting business like that, no one knows what to trust.
11:38Certainly the American people don't know what to trust when they hear from you and you say this will be
11:42over in a matter of weeks.
11:43In fact, it's already over.
11:44We're not even at war anymore.
11:45We've already got a peace deal.
11:46It's in place.
11:47Right.
11:48And it's saying not that the price.
11:50But what is the president's is dramatic.
11:51Can you trust what the president says?
11:53Than what we see today?
11:55I don't know that that's the standard.
11:56It's not lower than it was before he decided to launch the war.
11:59That's the standard here.
11:59Normally it's inversed.
12:00Camille, it is funny, though.
12:02I agree that the president's rhetoric is probably the worst part of his approach to this war.
12:06And I'll sign on to any critique of his approach rhetorically.
12:10But it is funny.
12:11What you just described is he's changing the terms, what have you.
12:13He's mercurial.
12:13That's precisely how the Iranians negotiate.
12:16Aragachi, a foreign minister, wrote in his book that the Iranian Bazaari style of negotiation
12:20is just to be intractable and to change the terms on you and to exhaust you to the point
12:26where you give up concessions.
12:27So this is strategic, not schizophrenic.
12:28I don't think it's strategic.
12:29I think it's driving them as crazy as it's driving us, which is the Iranian style.
12:32And it's probably driving the Iranians crazy too.
12:33So then you would admit then it's a folly that Trump thought this was going to be over
12:36in like two weeks.
12:37No, wait a minute.
12:38Trump thought this was going to be over in like two weeks.
12:39And if both sides are being schizophrenic and, let's just use your word,
12:43and putting, you know, basically putting things on the table, taking them back.
12:47I mean, that does not seem to be a recipe for a deal.
12:50It's not a recipe for a deal, but the deal should be one that is commensurate with our
12:54strategic objectives.
12:55And by all accounts, the Iranians weren't putting anything on the table that was commensurate
12:59with our strategic objectives.
13:00I agree.
13:00We're engaged in coercive diplomacy now.
13:02That's what you call that sort of thing.
13:03And Tara, I will concede that the president shouldn't have given himself a window because
13:07you never know how operations are going to unfold when you start.
13:09And he was sacrificing tons of political capital by saying something.
13:12He was on a sugar high from Venezuela.
13:15But now he's doing something.
13:16So you cannot say that he's sacrificing credibility while he's doing exactly what he said he would
13:20do.
13:21What do you mean now he's doing something?
13:21Right.
13:21What's the plan?
13:22What is he doing now?
13:22Today's attack.
13:23What's the plan?
13:24He's executing attacks on Iranian targets.
13:26To what end?
13:27And the end, as I understand it, is to force the Iranians to come to the negotiating table
13:33in earnest with genuine incest.
13:35It's not working.
13:41I just want to note that Trump also announced to great fanfare today, both in the Oval Office
13:47and on Truth Social, that he's directed the military to execute a secret mission, not
13:52so secret anymore, to support oil tankers and commercial ships through the Strait of
13:57Hormuz.
13:58And then he declares that this wildly successful effort is because the United States of America
14:03controls the Strait of Hormuz, not Iran.
14:07Meanwhile, the New York Times reports that this mission that he's talking about, that he
14:10claims is secret, has been widely known.
14:13It's been underway for a long time, it's been talked about publicly, and it has not produced
14:17a Strait of Hormuz that is open.
14:20Wait, but no, it's not closed.
14:22But by your own definition, it's not closed.
14:24I agree.
14:25That's right.
14:26But is it more open than closed?
14:27It's neither closed nor is it in Iran's control.
14:30Right.
14:30It's neither closed nor is it open.
14:31If we're exfiltrating, it is in this Schrodinger's...
14:35And the Iranians say that it's closed, but it's proof that it's not.
14:39Now, the fact that the president shares and discloses things, this is baked in the cake.
14:46Wait, wait, wait.
14:46We've seen that since 2015.
14:48Just to be clear, just to be clear, is it open or is it closed?
14:51It's not closed the way the Iranians say it is.
14:54Right.
14:55It's not closed with military force.
14:56Okay.
14:57Are we able to get what we got out of it before, which is free transit?
15:02No, no.
15:02Obviously not.
15:03But have the Iranians stopped all traffic through the strait as they say they have and are?
15:07No.
15:08And I just want to note, on that front, they've said in response to this that they are going
15:13to now...
15:14Bring it on.
15:15They're now going to attempt...
15:17I don't know how...
15:17This is like what?
15:18They're going to attempt to close the whole thing.
15:20Remember, last week, Marco Rubio was in front of Congress testifying, and he testified
15:25that the war was over.
15:27Right.
15:27Well, if the war was over, then what the hell is this?
15:30Well, you can't have a blockade.
15:31A blockade is an act of war.
15:32So what is it?
15:33We have a blockade.
15:34We're a war.
15:35We're not.
15:37We're going to leave the family, guys.
15:38We don't have eyes and ears.
15:39Because they don't know what they're doing.
15:40Next for us, Donald Trump calls Graham Plattner a thug and says that he is the worst human
15:44being ever to run for office.
15:46We'll discuss that.
15:47Plus, there's some new reporting that reveals chaos inside the White House over the Epstein
15:52files.
15:53Backstabbing, storming out of the room, calling the scandal Trump's Iran-Contra.
15:57We'll be right back.
16:05Tonight, the gloves are off, and Donald Trump is unleashing on Graham Plattner after Plattner
16:11secured the Democratic nomination for the Senate in Maine.
16:14Listen to this.
16:16I watched that thug that's up in Maine.
16:19He's a thug.
16:20Yeah.
16:21And they're trying to make excuses for him.
16:23I mean, he's worse than any human being that's ever run for office, probably.
16:28He's a cheap, no-good person.
16:30He's just an outright pig.
16:32He's like a pig.
16:33I watched him.
16:33I come up with good names for people.
16:36I don't want to stick him with that one, although I think pigs would be very upset about it.
16:43If Republicans want to maintain control of the Senate, they'll more than likely need
16:47to rely on incumbent Senator Susan Collins to defeat Plattner in November.
16:51But in light of his rocky relationship with Collins, Trump's endorsement today was hardly
16:58enthusiastic, to put it lightly.
17:01She's not my best friend at all.
17:03These guys are.
17:04I get along, but I have some.
17:06But she's a sane person.
17:08And she's a person that never missed a vote in many years.
17:12I mean, she's like had 10,000 votes.
17:15She had 10,000 votes.
17:16She never missed a vote.
17:18Unfortunately, because sometimes she voted against me.
17:22You know, look, she's a sane woman.
17:25And she's a respected person.
17:29Donald Trump calling Graham Plattner the worst person, I guess, to run for office, attacking
17:37him for the scandals that he has endured over the last couple of weeks.
17:42What do you make of it, Anna?
17:45Pot, meat, kettle.
17:46I mean, look, I think there's a lot of people in this country who think Donald Trump is the
17:52worst person that's ever been elected president, maybe not run for office, but certainly been
17:57elected president.
17:58Donald Trump, of course, has his own barrage of problems with toxicity, sexual harassment,
18:06accusations of rape, so many different things.
18:09Sexual assault that we all heard him boast about.
18:12Look, this Graham Plattner thing is very difficult.
18:15And I think that the more we talk about it, the better it is, because the voters of Maine,
18:22who are the ones that are going to decide, are going to make an educated decision of just
18:28what matters to them and what doesn't.
18:30You can't say that they're going into the ballot box without knowing who they are voting
18:34for, in the same way that the Christian evangelicals who held their nose and voted for Trump after
18:40or the Access Hollywood tapes, knew who they were voting for.
18:43So, you know, I just, I think it's the utmost irony, these kind of criticisms coming from
18:50Donald Trump.
18:51There's a lot of other people who have the moral authority to do it, not Donald J. Trump.
18:56Feels like something he might want to sit out, this particular conversation.
19:00Yeah, listen, the president has ethical flaws, we'll say, and a checkered moral past,
19:06but I don't think this is difficult at all, just judging by the Democratic Party standards.
19:09The Democratic Party standard was that this is a moral abomination, and you have a moral
19:14responsibility to oppose it.
19:16When the president was on the ballot back in 2018, we were confronted with the concept
19:20of toxic masculinity, which was the notion being that men raised in the poisonous milieu
19:26of the American environment come up and fetishize violence, have physical and emotional abuse
19:31to the women in their lives, are boorish, are crude, and that's the sort of thing that we
19:36should be storage and not review.
19:37Trump's true social feed about a half an hour ago.
19:40And Tara, I just described Grant Plattner in Maine.
19:42So to apply your standards, I am not defending Grant Plattner either.
19:46No, no, no.
19:47You are defending Grant Plattner.
19:48No, no, no, no, time out, time out.
19:49I am not defending Grant Plattner.
19:51So should Mainers go to the polls and vote for Susan Collins?
19:54Sure.
19:54So I am not defending Grant Plattner.
19:56I am actually, you know, someone who is intellectually consistent about the fact that character matters.
20:02I think that this is a horrible choice.
20:04I think Democrats made a terrible mistake by putting this guy forward.
20:08They knew that he had problems back in the fall.
20:10And I find it hard to believe that there is no one else in Maine besides the 79-year-old
20:15governor or this guy.
20:17But it's up to the people of Maine.
20:19However, this is the part that I think is just indefensible.
20:25Donald Trump just described himself.
20:27He always projects.
20:28And then all of the Republicans who are trying to now project onto Democrats that, oh, well,
20:33Democrats, you guys need to take a stand because you criticized Trump.
20:36No.
20:37Miss me with all of that virtue signaling.
20:40Anyone who voted for Donald Trump, anyone who has sat up here in TV studios and defended
20:45Donald Trump, the guy, the grab him by the pussy guy, the hit him in that, you know, knock
20:49the hell out of him guy, the fire that son of a bitch guy, the suckers and losers guy,
20:53the guy that posts violent memes on his truth social.
20:54I know his greatest hits.
20:56But Tara, you're filibustering.
20:57You people all defend that.
20:58Should Maynors vote against Grant Plattner?
21:00Should they vote for Susan Collins?
21:01Maynors are going to have to deal with that.
21:03You want to answer the question?
21:04I said they should sacrifice the presidency when Donald Trump was on the ballot.
21:08I think Maynors should sacrifice the Senate.
21:10I could not vote for him.
21:10I could not vote for him.
21:11Just so that we understand where everybody stands.
21:14Noah, you voted against, you did not, you never voted for Donald Trump, you didn't support
21:21his nomination.
21:22What about you, Horace?
21:23I supported Donald Trump because I support these policies.
21:27But let's be clear, let's be clear, let's be clear, this anti-Semitic dirtbag, there are
21:35more people in Maine that could have been picked any person randomly than this guy.
21:42So just what Tara was saying, if you agree with Donald Trump's assessment of Grant Plattner,
21:50you probably ought to agree with Donald Trump's assessment of Donald Trump.
21:53I didn't say I agree with Donald Trump's assessment.
21:56I'm saying this anti-Semitic reprobate should never have been allowed to run.
22:04Any decent credible party would have said, no, it's not your time, we're going to get some
22:14of this.
22:14Why are you so confident in saying that about Grant Plattner, but you cannot say that about
22:18The star of the Nazi that he had on his body?
22:22Listen to her question, why didn't you say it about Trump?
22:24That's why I'm so confident.
22:25Yeah.
22:26But her question is, why are you so confident about Grant Plattner and not Trump?
22:29So we know that Donald Trump has his own long history.
22:33Yeah, but he's a dirtbag in many other ways.
22:34He, in 2016, he hesitated several times to disavow David Duke and then eventually did it under
22:43duress.
22:43He never apologized for falsely claiming that Central Park Five were guilty in calling for
22:50the death penalty.
22:51He was accused of bias in his real estate practice.
22:57He dined with white nationalist and Holocaust denier Nick Fuentes at his private club.
23:03Who is anti-Semitic.
23:05In Florida.
23:05I mean, yes.
23:06With an actual...
23:09Where the hell is the smoke for that?
23:11No, no, no.
23:11Seriously.
23:12I'm just saying, listen, it's, uh, I'm just asking, we asked Tara, we asked Noah.
23:18They were both able to say neither of these guys, right?
23:23Are you willing to say that?
23:25I'm willing to say that this scumbag should not be on the ballot.
23:30Go ahead.
23:30But this anti-Semitic problem that his party is associated with needs to come to an end.
23:37I hear you.
23:37But what about, what about Donald Trump?
23:39I think, I think it's worth, I think it's worth talking about what the Democratic leadership
23:43has done.
23:43both before he won, um, the, the nomination, uh, and, and after.
23:49And the reality is that lots and lots of people have been willing to put party over principle
23:54here.
23:55And we saw Republicans do something similar.
23:57And to the extent there's hypocrisy, that is the hypocrisy here.
24:00And is it really the case that Susan Collins, for all of one's political disagreements with
24:05her, like that, that she is obviously a worse human, uh, a less kind of credible, honest,
24:13earnest, sincere person, less trustworthy than the person who seems to be running for office
24:19now.
24:19I don't think they're, I don't think they're, they're known.
24:21They're not comparing.
24:22No, I don't think it's a comparison.
24:23So what is it?
24:24It's a, it's Susan Collins as a vessel of, and, and, and complicit with Donald Trump.
24:31Not, who's better, who's a better person?
24:33But that's politics in principle.
24:34Who's a better person?
24:35Susan Collins or Graham Plattner?
24:36I would say most rational human beings would clearly say Susan Collins.
24:40But I don't think that's the, the, the decision that Mainers are making.
24:45Right.
24:45The, the people who say, I don't, I, I, all this episode is, is reprehensible, but we're
24:51going to vote for him because we need to get, I would have, I think I would have, I think
24:54I would have a difficult time voting for someone who, who I wouldn't, who I wouldn't, who I
24:58wouldn't feel comfortable.
24:59All this episode is that Democrats are as capable of rationalizations in the pursuit of
25:06political power as Republicans are.
25:08I think that's what it is.
25:09No, it's not a matter of making it right, but I do think exposing that hypocrisy is appropriate.
25:13I think you're, I think you're right about that.
25:14One thing I will, maybe to some extent, give to both sides, is that politics and policy
25:21are, are not just about the games that we play rhetorically.
25:25It's also about the impact that they have on people's lives.
25:28Republicans believe that their policies make their, their lives better.
25:31Democrats believe their policies make their lives better.
25:33That's what allows people to justify moral inadequacies.
25:38It's because they, they believe the policy is worth it.
25:41That the outcome is worth it.
25:43That Susan Collins, you know, voting a certain way on a HHS nomination has real impacts on
25:49real people.
25:50But then you don't have an inviolable.
25:51It's, it's not just rhetoric.
25:53It's life and death.
25:54But you don't have an inviolable moral frame there.
25:55You have a flexible moral frame.
25:57Well, and that's a bad thing.
25:58Well, I'm, that's a bad thing.
25:59Well, I'm, I'm, I'm, listen, I, I agree with you.
26:01I, that's part of the problem.
26:03This whole thing syncs of hypocrisy.
26:04Abby, in my case.
26:05All around.
26:06But, but that's the why of it.
26:07That's why we're all comfortable saying, Abby, in my case.
26:10I'm fine with it in this case, but not in that case.
26:12Abby, in my case.
26:13I represent one of the largest conservative African-American groups in the country,
26:20and we believe that the kinds of policies that we're seeing under this administration
26:25is specifically helping black Americans.
26:29I was so convinced of it, I actually wrote a book about it.
26:34I will just note that the black unemployment rates skyrocketed
26:39basically as soon as Donald Trump got into office.
26:42And they decimated DEI programs.
26:45We would have to address that as well.
26:46Black and black generals have been discussed.
26:49Black and black women reporting on what it was like inside the Situation Room
26:53in the White House as President Trump's top officials met without him
26:58to try to contain the Epstein Files crisis.
27:00We're going to discuss that reporting next.
27:11Tonight, stunning new reporting from the New York Times recounts the administration's freakout
27:15over the Epstein Files and its efforts to contain the fallout.
27:19According to the Times, on July 17, 2025, top administration officials met in the White House Situation Room
27:26without the president to address the backlash over the DOJ's handling of the Epstein investigation
27:31and to attempt to regain control.
27:34Ten days earlier, the Justice Department had released a memo
27:37that was intended to put years of speculation surrounding Epstein to rest.
27:41But its findings that Epstein had killed himself and that a so-called client list didn't even exist
27:48and that no new charges were forthcoming set MAGA in a fury among the new revelations in this story.
27:55In that meeting, J.D. Vance, the vice president, reportedly proposed a PR gambit.
28:00Vance floated that colleagues at the White House could enlist Tucker Carlson
28:05to interview Epstein's accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell, while she's in prison.
28:10The vice president reasoned it might help Trump if Maxwell were willing to state
28:14that he had not been part of any wrongdoing with Epstein.
28:19I do think that this particular, there were a lot of meetings reported here,
28:24but that Situation Room meeting where they're going over, should he pardon Ghislaine Maxwell?
28:28Basically, the gist of it is what all can we do to protect the president?
28:34That is the stuff that I think is the fuel for conspiracies around a broader cover-up of this Epstein
28:43scandal.
28:43I mean, I just found this article so entertaining, which is not what you were supposed to get from it.
28:49I mean, but it's revelatory.
28:51It's revelatory of the degree to which, at least at the outset of this administration,
28:54they were so plugged into the online right, which is where this stuff lives.
28:59It is not really bleeding out into the real world, and I have proof.
29:02It's not hard to find polling, even last year, where Republicans, Democrats, majorities say,
29:07we don't approve of how this administration is handling the Epstein files.
29:09But is it a salient issue?
29:11Fox News Channel, in July, surveyed the people who said, we disapprove of this president, 54%.
29:16Litany of reasons they offered, you can imagine.
29:191% said the Epstein files, and that was exclusively Democrats and Democrat-leaning independents.
29:25It was a MAGA thing, but it was an online MAGA thing.
29:28It wasn't in the real world.
29:29I mean, but in that meeting, I mean, the vice president thought it was a real thing,
29:33and thought that it was effectively, I think the quote was, this is going to, or Dan Bongino said this.
29:41He said, this is going to be the president's Iran contract.
29:44Part of the reason Dan Bongino would say something like this is because they literally brought the conspiracy theorists into
29:51the White House.
29:52As Noah said, he is an extremely online person, as is the president of the United States.
29:57It makes a lot of sense that he'd have interest in this.
29:59But all of this gives me very much so, like Russiagate vibes.
30:02The reality is that the president wasn't a Russian asset.
30:05He was never the Manchurian president.
30:08But he certainly seemed to act like it.
30:10He was obsessed with the story in the same way that his critics were obsessed with kind of promulgating these
30:15conspiracies.
30:16He fed it and gave it energy.
30:18And I think the behavior of the administration with respect to the Epstein scandal, which I think, quite honestly, is
30:23driven primarily by speculation,
30:25by this belief that there must be some deeper story here, when in fact that this is something that has
30:32occurred across multiple administrations,
30:35across multiple political parties, the reality is that if there was any sort of criminal conduct in these files related
30:42to the president of the United States,
30:43the current one, we would have known about it already.
30:46Everything leaks.
30:47It hasn't happened.
30:48So, wait, wait, wait, wait.
30:49They didn't even know that either.
30:50I mean, part of what you get from the story is that they were desperate to find out if there
30:56was stuff about Trump.
30:57Yes.
30:57Stuff that was perhaps dangerous.
30:59So they were like, we've got to figure out if he's implicated here.
31:02Right.
31:02And they dug through it.
31:03Right.
31:04With all due respect, the Russiagate comparison, I think, doesn't hold up.
31:09Because Robert Mueller in the Mueller report said that there was some problems here going on.
31:14Maybe the term collusion isn't really a legal one, but there were some issues there.
31:17And he was hoping that the Congress would take it up through or it would go through a legal process
31:23once Trump got out of office.
31:24So that was that.
31:25And unfortunately, because of the attorney general and all kinds of different things, they decided not to do that.
31:30But we can't just absolve him from whatever was going on with the Russians.
31:34So there's that.
31:35Now, as far as Epstein is concerned, the guy's name is in the Epstein files thousands of times.
31:41He was best friends with him for years.
31:43He was on his plane with him.
31:45They were big.
31:46They were, you know, involved in all kinds of things.
31:49And there are two and a half million files that still have not been released.
31:56And if Pam Bondi and Dan Bongino and Kash Patel and all the people in the Situation Room,
32:03which is where you usually go when you need things to be really, really, really secure,
32:08why are they going to the Situation Room?
32:09This is just giving me UAP vibes here.
32:10No.
32:11This is me too.
32:12They're concerned about what did the president know, how much did he know and why.
32:17Is he legally culpable?
32:18We don't know.
32:18But he all has his minions in the Department of Justice who are covering this for him.
32:22I have to agree with you.
32:24This is not how you behave when you're innocent.
32:26It's a very long article, which I also found somewhat entertaining just for, like, the gossip
32:30value of it, right?
32:32Like, Bongino calling Pam Bondi Blondie, berating her in front of everybody and telling her,
32:38you fucked this up from the beginning.
32:40I mean, that was kind of glorious.
32:41But I also got out of it that, and how much they wanted her gone, right?
32:49I also got out of it just how different J.D. Vance's take is within the administration
32:55from some of the people that are surrounding Trump, like Susie Wiles.
32:59He is obviously plugged in to the magosphere and the manosphere in a way that some of them,
33:06and some of the political folks that are around Trump are not surprising for Vice President.
33:10If they had listened to him at the beginning and just released the files instead of doing
33:15all the other shenanigans, I actually think this might have ended up differently.
33:19They didn't listen to him.
33:21It's almost like he's running for president in 2028.
33:26Enough time has passed that we now know that if there had been any evidence,
33:30if there had been any of these details, he wouldn't come forward.
33:34Not true.
33:35But here's what I'm interested in.
33:36What if when Graham Plattner came to Washington, D.C. to meet with the Senate Minority Leader
33:42and all these other people, someone there was taking detailed notes, and they decided to write a book?
33:49It's not so much what insider conversations talk about.
33:53It's about what ends up happening.
33:55It can sound salacious.
33:57What are you talking about?
33:58It can sound really, really provocative.
34:00But it has no actual merit in the end.
34:03The Department of Justice has not moved whatsoever on going after any of the people who are in these files.
34:08They have covered it up.
34:09They have thousands of pages of redactions.
34:11I don't believe that.
34:13Is that a cover-up, or is there no prosecutable crime here?
34:16This is not how you behave when they're innocent.
34:18We have to go, and I think just to Tara's point,
34:21if there's one thing that you take away from all of the reporting in this story,
34:24it's at the highest levels of DOJ.
34:26Their top priority, as it relates to the Epstein files, was protecting the president.
34:31Pam Bondi, Deputy Attorney General, and that is not their job.
34:36Their job is not to protect the survivors.
34:39Their job is to protect the survivors.
34:42What happened in Bill Gates' testimony today,
34:44saying that Epstein was trying to extort him through knowing about his infidelity,
34:50to me is more relevant, because it might explain how the hell Epstein got all that money.
34:54Blackmail.
34:55No, no, one of these people was a line prosecutor.
34:58Next for us, state election officials might soon face a stark choice,
35:02hand over voter rolls to the Trump administration,
35:05or risk losing mail service for mail-in ballots.
35:08We'll discuss that next.
35:17It could soon become much harder for some Americans to vote by mail,
35:21as President Trump pushes for more control over elections.
35:24Under newly proposed rules, the U.S. Postal Service could stop delivering mail-in ballots
35:29to states that refuse to share voter information with the federal government.
35:33The move is tied to an executive order that Trump signed in March,
35:36seeking to crack down on vote by mail.
35:39Twenty-three states and the District of Columbia are suing to stop the new rules,
35:43warning that voters could be disenfranchised if the proposal is enacted.
35:48Some of these cases have gone before judges.
35:51Some of these lawsuits, many of them, you can see the map there in green,
35:56they've been dismissed because judges have said there's no legal right
36:00for the federal government to have voter rolls.
36:03But what this does is it raises questions about how far the Trump administration is willing to go
36:08to dabble in elections, in an election year, by the way.
36:12Pretty damn far.
36:13They had Tulsi Gabbard in the shadows before she quit as DNI
36:17when they were getting ballots from Fulton County, Georgia.
36:22What was the FBI doing there?
36:24You've got Bill Pulte now, who is completely unqualified as the acting DNI,
36:29and he can be in that acting position through the midterm elections,
36:32doing God knows what, claiming foreign interference or whatever excuse Donald Trump comes up with,
36:38because he has said multiple times we should federalize elections,
36:41maybe we shouldn't even have elections.
36:43Oh, if you have a war or something, well, we don't have to have elections.
36:46He has said this multiple, multiple times.
36:49And as someone who spent many, many years in the conservative circles,
36:52hearing a president of the United States with an R next to his name saying we should federalize elections
36:57when our argument was always about states' rights and the states are controlling the elections
37:01and it should be states and localities, and people used to have freakouts over national ID,
37:06and now you've got a president that wants a federal role for voters.
37:11It's crazy.
37:12He's trying to, he's said it himself, he would like to federalize elections.
37:17Okay.
37:18Well, disagreeing with practically everything my good friend just said,
37:23I do think that there are strong legal arguments to be made by state and local governments
37:28that they are not required to comply with these requirements.
37:34Congress needs to act.
37:36If Congress were to act, it would change the scenario mightily.
37:40We have lived under an imperial presidency for almost 50-plus years,
37:46and it's thought you just issue the executive order and everything great can follow.
37:51Well, we are seeing some of the limits to that.
37:54But our legal system is working fine.
37:56So you disagree then with Trump's executive order on mail-in?
37:59I disagree with the DNI.
38:00I disagree with the idea that our national security apparatus is being targeted toward political opponents.
38:07I disagree with all of that.
38:09I wholeheartedly agree with the point about the imperial presidency.
38:12I think this administration, however, has done something to kind of supercharge that transformation of our government.
38:18And honestly, there are so many critical things that I could say about the president.
38:22Again, on the merits, I think the personal corruption, enriching his family through government, pretty bad.
38:27I think the lying and the dishonesty, all pretty bad.
38:30The gaudy structure behind the White House now, pretty, pretty bad.
38:34But the worst thing, his most enduring legacy, is going to be that continuation of this process of making the
38:41imperial presidency even more robust,
38:44of accruing more and more power into the executive branch, which will almost certainly be abused by the very people
38:50you ostensibly are against.
38:54Barack Obama and Joe Biden set records for the number of unanimous losses before the United States Supreme Court.
39:02And the president, the current president of the United States.
39:04This president is not setting a record of that kind.
39:06Instead, he's setting a record for the most successes.
39:10Well, he might set himself up for that.
39:11I agree with everything Tara said.
39:13For the same reasons that I opposed the Democratic Party's H.R. 1 in 2018, I oppose this initiative on
39:18federalist grounds alone.
39:19I think there will be a very strong challenge to it in the courts.
39:22But the president is trying to make a political argument here.
39:24I don't think he's trying to make a legal argument.
39:25What they're trying to say is that voting in this country is flawed, if not wholly immoral, or corrupt, rather,
39:31and it needs to be...
39:31He's degrading the credibility of the system now.
39:33...and it needs to be reined in by a strong force, and I just simply disagree.
39:35This is a tactical and strategic effort by Donald Trump in many different ways, from the gerrymandering,
39:43never accepting the laws of 2020, from calling what's going on in California fraud without any evidence,
39:50of him trying to diminish confidence in our elections.
39:54But you don't have to be lurid about it.
39:55...to suppress and depress the people going out and voting.
39:58Just say it's better.
39:59Next for us, the panel's going to give us their nightcaps, America the Beautiful edition.
40:04Be right back.
40:06We'll be right back.
40:34...and that's a fundamental sensibility.
40:36Yeah, that's cute.
40:37Well, I think America is a place where you can come from anywhere, from any other country,
40:42and find your cuisine represented here.
40:45So you find Ethiopian cuisine, Somalian cuisine, Armenian cuisine.
40:49I don't think you can do that in many other countries.
40:51So what cuisine would you have them eat?
40:53Whatever the hell their cuisine is.
40:55So like...
40:55Our version of your stuff.
40:56You want the bastardized American version?
40:59Yes, I want the...
41:00That's typically the best, by the way.
41:02That's very American to me.
41:03I feel good.
41:04I think that one of our best things is our national parks, and particularly, they should
41:09get to Mount Tam in California, and they should go look at the Pacific Coast from the summit
41:14of Mount Tam.
41:15It is one of the best things you'll do in your life.
41:17Tara?
41:18Everyone should experience the beauty, the glorious Jersey Shore.
41:24And it is...
41:24People give Jersey a bad name, but the Jersey Shore is a wonderful place.
41:28It's my happy place.
41:29Everyone should eat Zeppoles, get a slice of pizza, do a couple fist bumps, and sing some
41:34Bon Jovi karaoke, and eat disco fries at 2 in the morning.
41:36All right, Horace.
41:37Jersey Shore takes home.
41:38Having just taken the family on a Route 66 trip, I heartily recommend it.
41:43Go to Saligman, Arizona, and you'll be amazed at the Americana you see.
41:47All right, everyone.
41:48Thanks very much.
41:49Thanks for watching Newsnight.
41:50Before we go, special programming note.
41:52Our Summer Fridays are back here at Newsnight, and we will take the show on a field trip to
41:57the Food Network.
41:58We'll be broadcasting from the Test Kitchen, and we'll have some food and drinks, lively
42:03conversation as well, starting this Friday.
42:05Don't miss it.
42:06Meanwhile, Laura Coates Live starts right now.
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