00:07My guest today on 12 Minutes With
00:09is the Director General of the
00:11European Space Agency, Dr.
00:13Joseph Aschbacher. Sir,
00:15thank you so much for joining us today.
00:17I want to start with talking to you
00:19about the eastern flank.
00:21Europe is being rattled by drone attacks.
00:24We've seen them in Finland and more
00:25recently in Romania.
00:27What role does the European Space
00:29Agency play in bolstering
00:32Europe's security?
00:34Of course, what happens now
00:35on the security front is very
00:37concerning for everyone,
00:38every European citizen and even beyond.
00:41What do we do as European Space Agency?
00:44Of course, I have to distinguish the roles
00:45of us compared to the
00:47defense community, that means the military
00:50units in the different
00:51countries. We are not
00:53a military organization.
00:55We are a space agency.
00:57As a space agency, we develop technology
00:59that can be utilized by other users,
01:01including the defense community.
01:02So our job and my job is to, first of all,
01:05define together on the basis of requirements
01:09from the security defense communities
01:11or other users to define the space
01:13infrastructure that is needed in order to
01:15help them collecting information,
01:18communicating, navigating, and really being
01:20sure that they have the tools that space
01:22can provide for their defense purposes.
01:24And now, Europe has really
01:27ramped up defense spending.
01:28You have said yourself that Europe should also
01:30double its spending on space.
01:33But because Europe is now,
01:34on the one hand, being tightly squeezed
01:36with its budgets and, on the other hand,
01:38rapidly increasing this defense spending,
01:41how do you see that this is feasible?
01:43Do you say this is really necessary
01:45to invest in space?
01:46This is really necessary.
01:48Just take the three arguments that are really
01:50supporting the investments in space.
01:53Number one, space technology is utilized
01:55every single day by you, by me,
01:58by all the citizens in Europe,
02:00from communication to weather forecasts
02:02to earth observation, agriculture,
02:05forestry, health.
02:07Many domains are really using data from satellites
02:10or satellite technology every single day.
02:12Number two, space is an economic growth sector.
02:16We're having a space economy today
02:18of about 600 billion euros.
02:21It grows to 1.8 trillion euros in the next decade.
02:24That means about 10% per year.
02:26We are increasing our space economy,
02:28or the world is increasing the space economy.
02:30And yes, of course, Europe wants to be part of it.
02:33And Europe wants to not only be part,
02:35but drive some of these sectors.
02:37And number three, yes, defense and security
02:39are driving factors today,
02:41because space is essential for defense elements,
02:45for capacities, for all the domains on the air,
02:48on the ground, on the sea,
02:50and obviously in space itself.
02:52And there we have a relatively good situation
02:55at the moment in Europe.
02:57The budgets are very tight everywhere.
02:59We, of course, realize this.
03:00But space is so fundamental
03:02and is so important for daily life of every citizen.
03:05And therefore, it's really well justified
03:07because it's a bit like asking a question,
03:10do you need internet, yes or no?
03:12If you would switch off internet,
03:13yes, you can say it costs a lot of money
03:15having the computers, the networks,
03:17and everything needed,
03:18but you couldn't do without internet.
03:19Space war is no longer a fiction.
03:21Many say it's a reality now.
03:23The latest stories, for example,
03:25of Russian satellites behaving suspiciously
03:28around European satellites are an example of this.
03:30What are the facts here?
03:32What are the risks?
03:33And what should Europe be doing
03:35to prepare and mitigate these risks?
03:38I mean, there are many things that need to be done.
03:40On one side, of course, space itself
03:42is probably in the future more under threat than today.
03:46But it's not only the space assets,
03:49that means the satellites in orbit.
03:51It's probably even more the ground assets,
03:53the ground stations, the operating stations,
03:57the stations that are communicating with the satellites
03:59and steering them and giving commands to the satellites.
04:03Cyber security is a big word in this context.
04:07So yes, we need to protect our overall system.
04:10And yes, this is something where I see increasing threats
04:13coming in the future, in general, also in space.
04:16And that's something where we need to invest more
04:18to protect our infrastructure, our systems,
04:21in order to be sure to deliver all those data
04:23and information that you need on a daily life.
04:26Yeah.
04:26So you say really spending is the response here.
04:30Spending is the response, but spending it wisely.
04:33Just spending is, of course, not the right answer,
04:36but spending it in the right way, in a coordinated way,
04:40but also increasing the speed of how we build up our systems,
04:44because sometimes in Europe we are not as fast as we should be.
04:47And I think speed together with spending
04:49is really what needs to happen.
04:51And now the recent decision by the European Commission
04:54to give European satellite operators priority
04:58in the low-orbit market,
04:59many see this as a part of a shift in space culture here.
05:03This is assumedly because SpaceX, for example,
05:06and Amazon are light years ahead, many argue.
05:09Will this decision actually help Europe
05:11to finally make a competitive commercial space sector happen,
05:15do you think?
05:16Okay, you mentioned SpaceX and Amazon Leo,
05:19which, of course, are constellations that are being built up.
05:22I would not say that they are light years ahead.
05:24A light year is a very long distance
05:25and it's a very big jump to make.
05:28But yes, we do have European systems in connectivity.
05:32I take OneWeb as an example,
05:34which is next to Starlink,
05:37the next, I would say, civilian system
05:39that is being utilized by different users.
05:43So yes, we have something,
05:44but of course, yes, we need to build up
05:45and need to be much stronger.
05:46Either square is the answer to that.
05:48But also at the European level,
05:50at ESA level,
05:51we have initiated a program called
05:53European Resilience from Space,
05:55which is an integrated system,
05:56a system of systems
05:57that is having ISR,
06:00that means intelligence, surveillance,
06:02reconnaissance capabilities,
06:03together with connectivity
06:04in order to provide information
06:06of any place in the world
06:07within a very short period of time
06:09at good resolution with different sensors.
06:11So yes, this build up is necessary.
06:13We have the capacity,
06:14we have the industry,
06:15we have the excellence
06:17in terms of technologies that we need,
06:19but we need to invest,
06:21we need to do it,
06:22and we need to do it fast.
06:23And on Amazon,
06:24you saw some pictures
06:25very early on Friday morning
06:27of a rocket operated
06:28by Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin company
06:31that had exploded after takeoff.
06:33What was your reaction
06:35to these images?
06:36When I see images like this,
06:38it's always,
06:39it makes me very sad
06:40because I know how much effort
06:43is behind in developing a rocket,
06:46in developing the engines,
06:47in testing them,
06:48in bringing them to orbit.
06:50This was only one of the very first flights,
06:53so therefore it's really
06:54in the ramp-up phase,
06:55and this is certainly something
06:57that concerns me.
06:59And I'm really saying this
07:01because we are living through
07:03a ramp-up of a new rocket ourselves.
07:05We have developed the Ariane 6 rocket,
07:08we have launched it in July 2024
07:10for the first time,
07:12and fingers crossed,
07:13we have been very fortunate,
07:15but luck always is the result
07:18of many steps
07:19that you are putting in place yourself.
07:20We have been very fortunate
07:21that our Ariane 6 rocket
07:23is performing extremely well.
07:25The ramp-up is very fast,
07:26it's the fastest today
07:28of any heavy-lift rocket
07:30on the market
07:31or built over the last couple of years,
07:33so it's really something
07:35where you always realize
07:36how complex space technology is,
07:40and it is literally rocket science,
07:42and rocket science is not so simple,
07:45it's very complex,
07:46and succeeding in rocket science,
07:48that means in launches,
07:49is always a huge achievement.
07:50So yes, I feel very sorry
07:52for this incident that happened.
07:54It will be quite a big damage.
07:56You have seen the explosion,
07:58the launch base,
07:59I think, is pretty much destroyed,
08:02something that will take
08:02quite some time to rebuild,
08:04but also to investigate the reason
08:06why this explosion happened,
08:08and this, I know,
08:09is taking quite a bit of time.
08:11It's certainly a huge setback,
08:12not good for anyone
08:13in the space community.
08:15And I want to pivot to the U.S. now.
08:17We saw this recent announcement
08:18from NASA that they are hoping
08:20to put a U.S. base on the moon.
08:22What does this mean for Europe?
08:24We are part of it.
08:25We are having plans already
08:27since many years in the making
08:29of building up what we call
08:31the lunar economy
08:33or the lunar space economy.
08:34So that means infrastructure
08:36on the lunar surface.
08:37It may sound a bit science fiction
08:40to imagine that on the moon,
08:41astronauts will be walking,
08:44will be driving with rovers,
08:46will be taking measurements.
08:48There will be other rovers
08:49extracting something from the soil
08:51on the lunar surface.
08:52There will be other factories
08:54producing bricks
08:56for making buildings
08:57and infrastructure.
08:59A launch pad may be constructed.
09:02Ice may be converted to water
09:05and therefore oxygen
09:05and fuel at the end.
09:08But also really creating
09:10this infrastructure
09:10and this economy
09:11is quite a challenge.
09:13It will happen,
09:14but we are the beginning of it.
09:16And ESA, yes,
09:17we are very much part of it.
09:18Of course, we discussed with NASA.
09:20We are in very close interactions.
09:21Just these days,
09:23I'm very intensely negotiating
09:25with NASA and the various elements
09:26that we can also provide
09:27in this larger context.
09:30But we have already started
09:31doing this since 2022,
09:33where we have funded
09:35very important projects.
09:37Argonaut, Moonlight,
09:38are the keywords.
09:39Navigation communication
09:40on the moon surface.
09:43Argonaut is transporting
09:44equipment from the Earth
09:46to the lunar surface.
09:47We have provided,
09:49as part of the Artemis program,
09:51the European Service Module,
09:52that is the module
09:54that powers,
09:55brings oxygen, water
09:57and living conditions
09:58to the astronauts
09:59when they flew
10:00just a couple of weeks ago
10:01around the moon and back
10:03and in the future
10:04onto the moon surface.
10:05The engine for this capsule,
10:08the Orion capsule,
10:09is coming from Europe,
10:10is provided by
10:11the European Space Agency.
10:12So yes, we are part
10:13of a very close
10:14and dense cooperation
10:15with NASA already.
10:16And I want to ask you,
10:17we've also seen
10:18these declassified UFO files
10:20released by the Pentagon
10:22recently.
10:23Does the European Space Agency
10:25have similar footage?
10:26Can we expect the same
10:27here in Europe?
10:29We do not have
10:30as much footage
10:31as just being released.
10:32We have, of course,
10:33some information
10:34that we get.
10:34Even I get letters
10:36and pictures
10:37and movies
10:38from citizens
10:39that they have seen
10:40and discovered something.
10:41We have an office
10:42within ESA
10:43that is looking into this.
10:45sometimes it turns out
10:46to be some light effects
10:48or some planes
10:50or some satellites
10:51or something
10:51that has created
10:53a certain reflection
10:54and therefore it looks
10:55a bit strange
10:55at first sight.
10:57But yes,
10:57we are also collecting
10:58information,
10:59but yes,
11:00NASA has a much
11:01larger database
11:02and it's quite interesting
11:03to see some of this footing
11:05and that first moment,
11:06of course,
11:07very surprising
11:07and I think this is also
11:09quite interesting
11:10to really give it
11:12another dimension
11:13which you wouldn't expect
11:14and I think this is also
11:15part where people
11:16are very curious
11:16and want to see
11:17what could be possible.
11:19And just finally,
11:19very briefly,
11:20when do you think
11:22we will see the next
11:23European astronaut
11:24on the Moon?
11:25On the Moon?
11:26That is a big question.
11:27I wish I could answer
11:28the question.
11:29Around the Moon
11:29is also good.
11:31On the Moon.
11:32I hope before the end
11:33of the decade.
11:34We will, of course,
11:35partner with NASA
11:36because they are
11:37our partner
11:38for astronaut flights
11:40and including
11:41to the lunar surface
11:42but this is not yet agreed.
11:44I just want to be very clear
11:45but we are discussing
11:47with NASA very intensely
11:48to make this possible
11:49for Europeans
11:50as fast as possible.
11:51Dr. Aschbacher,
11:52thank you so much
11:53for your time.
11:54Thank you.
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