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10:20Is that legitimate?
10:23You know, it is inevitable when you have such a seismic change in the political landscape of a country
10:30that there will be issues and there will be changes in personnel.
10:36I think that is normal in such a scenario.
10:40What is important is the due process is always followed
10:43and that the rights of every individual citizen, including those serving in public office,
10:49are respected.
10:51So that is all part of having a good rule of law environment,
10:54is that you have checks and balances, that you have supports in place,
10:59that you have recourse to appeals mechanisms,
11:02you have recourse to independent courts in the justice system, for example.
11:07So all of these things are important.
11:09So there will be churn and there will be change in personnel.
11:12It's inevitable when you have such a significant shift in the political landscape.
11:16But it's important also that that is done in a way that respects the rights of individuals.
11:21Are you monitoring the situation?
11:24Of course we are.
11:25We are monitoring the situation in every member state of the European Union.
11:29And my team are now working intensively on the next round of rule of law country chapters,
11:37which we will publish in July of this year,
11:39where we look at every single country in the EU under a number of headings.
11:43There's also this new legislative initiative in Hungary to amend the constitution
11:48so that a prime minister can only serve for two terms,
11:52which would make it impossible for Viktor Orban ever to occupy that post again.
11:58Any comments on this?
11:59That's a matter for the national authorities and for the government in any member state
12:05to decide on matters such as that.
12:07When it comes to electoral politics and electoral matters and the conduct of elections,
12:13it's a national competence and we respect the competence of the member states
12:17to make decisions of that nature.
12:20Good.
12:20You mentioned electoral politics.
12:22We've seen interference in fake news, propaganda online ahead of elections in Europe.
12:31Should social media platforms be legally liable
12:34when disinformation campaigns threaten elections in Europe?
12:39Well, they already have clear obligations under the Digital Services Act,
12:44including in relation to the integrity of electoral processes
12:49and the impact that content disseminated on the platform may have on those electoral processes.
12:56It may sound quite technical, but they are required to mitigate the systemic risk.
13:00And so our colleagues in DG Connect and the European Commission,
13:04led by the Executive Vice President, Tenevere Cunnan,
13:08are doing a lot of work in this space.
13:10And there are actions underway under the DSA
13:14to make sure that those obligations are upheld.
13:18And fundamentally, Stefan, what we want to see in the European Union
13:21is a situation where every citizen gets to exercise their democratic franchise
13:26at the ballot box in free and fair elections
13:29and that they get the representatives that they choose.
13:33And that is what our goal is within the European Union.
13:36Now, with artificial intelligence, disinformation is becoming more sophisticated.
13:43Is Europe ready or prepared for this wave of digital manipulation?
13:50I think the whole world is grappling with this issue and struggling to keep pace.
13:56I think in the EU we are better positioned than most
14:00because we do have a mature regulatory rulebook,
14:04not just the DSA, but now the AI Act as well.
14:07And we've made some targeted amendments to the AI Act.
14:10So it will involve, for example,
14:13the requirement to label AI-generated deepfakes
14:17because we know the impact that they could have
14:20if they are released in the days leading up to an election
14:23and the quality is getting better and better, let's be honest.
14:26It can be increasingly difficult for all of us, I think,
14:29to distinguish between what's real now and what's AI-generated.
14:33So, again, we do have the regulatory rulebook,
14:37but enforcement is what matters.
14:39And ultimately, this is about empowering the citizens
14:42so that they can make that free decision
14:44that I spoke about earlier on without undue interference.
14:48You mentioned, you said enforcement is key here.
14:51Now, you met with Sam Altman and some other U.S. AI corporate leaders.
14:57Do they understand where we're coming from?
15:00Do they understand European regulation and why it is in place?
15:04I think they do.
15:04Sometimes I feel that we're talking on two different levels here.
15:09No, I think they do.
15:10If you put aside the rhetoric that we hear from time to time,
15:14I think U.S. Big Tech recognise that the European Union
15:18is a fantastic market for them to be operating in.
15:22For many of them, it is their single biggest
15:24and most lucrative market in the world.
15:27And I think they recognise that the EU has its own digital rulebook,
15:32which, by the way, is now being examined and replicated around the world.
15:37Wherever I travel on behalf of the European Commission,
15:40I get asked about the DSA, about the AI Act,
15:43by other countries who are looking at it
15:45because they are further back on the journey
15:47and they have not introduced measures that are proportionate and balanced.
15:53Of course, we keep all of this under review
15:54and that's why we have brought forward certain targeted amendments
15:57to the AI Act, for example.
16:00I've brought forward amendments to the GDPR.
16:03We always have to be conscious of the interplay
16:05between different instruments of EU regulation that we have.
16:09We have to make sure the law is clear, consistent
16:11and can be enforced uniformly around the European Union.
16:16But I think the big tech firms,
16:18including the AI companies that you mentioned,
16:21recognise that there is a need for guardrails
16:23because we want AI to serve us rather than the other way around.
16:29We want to have control as human beings
16:31about how AI is helping us to bring about positive changes
16:36in our working lives, in our personal lives
16:39and in our wider society.
16:41I have to ask you this.
16:42You're a family man, you're a father of seven.
16:45Do you support restricted access to social media for kids?
16:49Something that has been discussed in various countries.
16:54Should the EU consider a blanket ban?
16:57Kids will probably find a way around that, right?
16:59Yeah. Well, we are considering what to do.
17:03We haven't made any decision yet.
17:05As you know, President von der Leyen set up an expert panel
17:08on child safety online.
17:10We expect that they will report back in the coming weeks
17:13and the Commission will then make a decision on next steps.
17:17I think it is likely that there will be an EU-wide initiative in this space.
17:22I'm not saying that it will be a hard ban or anything of the sort.
17:26How likely?
17:27This is all to be decided.
17:29Okay.
17:29Well, you know, we've given the experts a job to do,
17:32so let's allow them to do their job.
17:34They'll report back.
17:35They'll make recommendations.
17:36But I think it's a very healthy thing that there is now
17:40a mature and open debate on the role of social media
17:44and the impact on children.
17:45And I'm looking at this issue in a wider way
17:49through the Digital Fairness Act I'll bring forward later on this year,
17:53which will involve measures to better protect children online.
17:56But on your question on social media,
17:59you know, you have a spectrum of options
18:00from the so-called hard ban that you talk about
18:04to dealing with issues like addictive design,
18:09you know, infinite autoplay.
18:11Do we make it easier for parents to exercise oversight and control?
18:16For a lot of parents, it can be very intimidating
18:18trying to understand how to navigate these systems.
18:21And I count myself among them.
18:23It is challenging, I think, for all of us.
18:25So we're looking at a spectrum of options.
18:27No decision made yet.
18:28On that note, you're also in charge of consumer protection.
18:32Yes.
18:32Now, why do many Europeans still feel powerless
18:37against big tech platforms
18:39when it comes to scams, addictive algorithms,
18:44and misuse of personal data?
18:46So these are among the issues that will feature
18:49in the Digital Fairness Act later on this year.
18:52Again, I would say overall that in the area of consumer protection,
18:57we have the highest standards in the world in the European Union.
19:00But we need to make sure that those protections
19:03keep pace with technological development.
19:06And the truth is that when it comes to
19:09our consumer protection laws,
19:12they have not been designed with the digital age in mind.
19:15And so when we speak about issues like dark patterns
19:18and addictive design and unfair personalisation
19:21or dynamic pricing when it comes to being on a queue
19:25to buy a concert ticket,
19:27these issues need to be examined.
19:30And subscription traps where you sign up to a free trial
19:32and it just rolls on into a permanent commitment
19:34that you find difficult to get out of.
19:36They're the very kind of issues
19:38that I and my team are now working through
19:40in the context of this Digital Fairness Act,
19:42which we'll bring forward before the end of this year.
19:45All right.
19:46Michael McGrath, EU Commissioner for Democracy, Rule of Law,
19:51Consumer Protection and Justice.
19:53Thank you so much for coming on the show today.
19:55A pleasure.
19:55A pleasure.
19:56A pleasure.
19:56A pleasure.
19:56A pleasure.
19:56A pleasure.
19:57A pleasure.
19:57A pleasure.
19:58A pleasure.
19:59A pleasure.
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