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00:10Melanie Chisholm came to fame in the 1990s as Sporty Spice, one-fifth of the biggest-selling
00:17girl band of all time. I don't think anybody could have predicted what happened with the
00:32Spice Girls. We were so ambitious and so driven and we knew what we wanted to achieve. But
00:40I will never forget who I am and where I'm from. The group became pop culture icons and
00:47today Melanie has a huge following as an award-winning solo performer.
00:53I've always been a really determined person. I've always been very disciplined from a kid
01:00and I love performing from such a young age. I grew up in Widness which is just outside
01:06Liverpool. I would say I have a really working class background. My immediate family that
01:12I know and my grandparents, everyone's a grafter. I have great relationship with both my mum
01:19and dad. They divorced when I was very young and went on to remarry so I have half-siblings
01:25and step-siblings and so I just had this really full, complicated family life.
01:32Melanie's parents still live in the north. She now lives in London with her teenage daughter
01:37and her dog, Dulce. I left home at 16, which blows my mind. I was going to Performing Arts
01:46College just outside London. I knew what I wanted to do so there was no option. I had to go
01:52and
01:52get on with it. As I've got older, I've become more curious about what came before me. You
01:58know, why I am this person? How did I end up like this? And just wondering if any of that
02:03is from the past and my relatives. I know virtually nothing beyond my grandparents. I do know there
02:12is an Irish connection. So I'm really intrigued to see where that began. I've always seen
02:20myself as a Scouser. I think there are some rules to how Scous you actually are. Real, hardcore
02:28Scousers wouldn't class me as a Scouser. You know, maybe we'll figure out that I am a bit
02:33more Scouser than everybody thinks. So I'm excited about what we're going to discover.
03:16Melon is starting with her dad's side of the family, so has invited her younger half-sister,
03:21Emma, around to help her go through the family archive.
03:28Although they didn't grow up together, they've become close.
03:33That's little me. Look at you. Yeah, so that's Kendall Drive. I wonder how well done that.
03:39I reckon it must be about two. Yeah, super young because that's where I lived with my mum and
03:46our dad. Joan and Alan. Yeah. Do you remember them being together? Not at all. No. I find it quite
03:53strange looking at pictures of mum and dad. Yeah. I just have no memory of, you know, being with them
03:59both at the same time. No. Oh, look, your lovely wedding day. I love this picture. This was an amazing
04:07day.
04:07I just think that cheesy smile of mine, I just remember being really happy in that picture.
04:11It was perfect. It was great. And we blinked and now we've got teenagers. Now, this is another
04:16wedding. Yeah. Obviously a long, long time before. So this is Nanny Kay. Yeah. Dad's mum. And I'm
04:24assuming that's grandad. Because we didn't know him. It's just so fascinating, isn't it, when you look.
04:29How different it was then. I know. They look happy though, don't they? Yeah. Aww. So I remember this
04:37photo, actually. I'm quite young there, aren't I? As a baby. A bit of a newborn. Yeah. So that must
04:41have
04:41been in 1974. And looking at Nanny there, she didn't really change. Obviously I came in later
04:50on in life. Yeah. But I just remember this amazing, like, strong, like, matriarch that everybody looked
04:57up to. Absolutely. And she always looked, like, incredible. I was petrified of her. I was. Because, you
05:04know, and I know she loved us all to bits. Yeah. Yeah. But you just knew not to mess with
05:09her. Yeah. And it would be
05:10really interesting to find out why she was like that. Yeah. Now, there's a picture in
05:15here. This has been sent to dad from his cousin. So. Ooh. Okay. So who could this be? Definitely
05:25a family resemblance. Yeah. Let's have a look. Mary Billsbury, married to Thomas Billsbury.
05:31Oh. Mother of Kay. 1942. Yeah. You can definitely see Nanny Kay. Oh. She looked like her mum,
05:39didn't she? Yeah. Yeah. So this is our great-grandmother. Mary Billsbury. Billsbury, married to Thomas,
05:46our great-grandad. You see, I... There's another name, and I don't know where I've got this name
05:52from. Oh, Flaughty. And I wonder whether that was her maiden name. Maybe. She looks like
05:59a strong woman, too, though, didn't she? She does. Another one you wouldn't mess with.
06:03Mm. What happened to us? Why did we get so soft? We need to do it enough. Maybe it does
06:07filter down eventually. Maybe we're going to be solid. Mary Billsbury. Oh, I can't wait to
06:13find out about her. Yeah. Melanie was close to her grandmother, Catherine Chisholm, who she
06:20called Nanny Kay. She now knows that Nanny Kay's mother, Melanie's great-grandmother, was
06:26Mary, and that her great-grandfather was Thomas Billsbury.
06:35Yeah, it's quite iconic, isn't it, the Elbon Conbridge?
06:39To find out more about her formidable-looking grandmother, Mary Billsbury, Melanie is heading
06:45to Liverpool, where her family are from.
06:48I've always been really proud of having heritage from Liverpool. People from Liverpool are very
06:56proud, very funny, and very warm.
07:00Ladies and gentlemen, I'm very sure to be right. You have to follow the street. This is the final stop.
07:07Every time I come into Liverpool and I see the iconic skyline, the Liver Building, I get butterflies in my
07:14tummy.
07:15All of my history I know is in Liverpool. I wonder how far back that goes. I'm really excited to
07:23find
07:23out about Mary Billsbury, my great-grandmother. Melanie's meeting historian Rebecca Probart at the
07:31Museum of Liverpool. Nice to meet you, Melanie.
07:34Lovely to meet you. Rebecca. Nice to meet you, Rebecca.
07:37And you? Would you like to come inside? I would love to.
07:42This is my great-grandmother, Mary Billsbury. That's her married name.
07:47Mm-hm. My great-grandfather is Thomas, and I know very little about this lady, and I'd like to find
07:55out some more.
07:56So, we have the 1911 census. If you'd like to take a look at that.
08:02Oh, you see, this is a name I recognise. Flaherty? Well, I know it is O-Flaherty, but maybe it's
08:09just Flaherty.
08:10Yes. We do have a Mary. OK. So, Mary, is that my great-grandmother?
08:17Yes. But nunnery? She's married?
08:22No, she's married. Yes. OK. I'm a little bit baffled, because I know her as Billsbury. Curious.
08:31Yes. So, Patrick, head of the household. Yeah.
08:35I need to work out who Patrick is. He's my great-great-grandfather.
08:39Your great-great-grandfather is Mary's dad. Yeah.
08:41So, we've got six people, but we've got three rooms.
08:44So, we can see from here ten court. This is what's known as court housing. OK.
08:50And it's very poor-quality housing. Mm-hm.
08:52You know, there would be a shared outside toilet, there would be a single tap, there'd be no hot water.
08:59And I don't know if you've heard of Scotland Road. Scotty Road. Scotty Road.
09:03It's quite a famous road in Liverpool. Yeah.
09:05So, this was an area where there was a lot of this housing. Yes.
09:09And you can see, if you look at the jobs that they're doing.
09:13So, Patrick is a dock labourer. Yeah. And then the daughters.
09:18So, Margaret is a fish... What's that word? Hawker. Hawker? What's a fish hawker?
09:24Basically, they sell fish. They hawk fish round the streets.
09:28Oh, wow. And so, is this the same? Yeah. Ditto.
09:32So, they all do the same. So, Mary, my great-grandmother, was also a fish hawker. Yeah.
09:38I'm so confused because, obviously, I have the picture of my great-grandmother being Mary Billsborough.
09:47So, to have been married before to a nunnery, a Mr Nunnery, I need to know more about that.
09:53Well, this might help to explain more about Mr Nunnery.
09:57This is the marriage certificate, yeah? It is, yes.
10:01So, Mary and Joseph Nunnery, he's 20. Mm-hm.
10:06And this is in 1908. Yes.
10:09Now, this census is 1911, a few years later, and she's living with her dad.
10:15Yeah. And there's no Mr Nunnery on the scene, it would seem.
10:24OK. I've spotted a nunnery. Yes.
10:29So, that's Joseph. So, regiment, kings... Is that army?
10:35Yes. Right.
10:37Oh! Date of trial!
10:39Yes. So, this is a court-martial document, also 1908.
10:47So, this is the same year that they got married? Yes.
10:50I don't know if you can read that there, it's quite small.
10:52Ah, is it... How do you say that word? Desertion.
10:55So, this is a few weeks after they get married that he's facing a court-martial for desertion.
11:0284 days. 84 days. Imprisonment.
11:05Yeah.
11:06My great-grandmother, Mary's first husband... Yes.
11:10..Joseph Nunnery, deserted the army to marry his beloved.
11:15That's certainly one possibility, isn't it? Right.
11:17Well, that's quite romantic, isn't it?
11:19But, in 1911, on the census, he's not there, he's not living with them.
11:25Where's he gone?
11:26So, Joseph is now in Karachi with his regiment.
11:29The Army and Navy Gazette, the 2nd Battalion, has arrived in Karachi.
11:33So, whereabouts in the world is this Karachi?
11:35So, at the time, it was in India. OK.
11:38It's in modern-day Pakistan. Right.
11:411908, he was imprisoned for desertion. Yeah.
11:44But by 1909, he's now back in the forces in Karachi.
11:51Yeah.
11:52So, Mary and Joseph haven't really had much opportunity
11:55to have a married life together.
11:57They haven't.
11:58And I should imagine that Mary had, she's so young, she's 23,
12:05and falling in love with somebody that spent some time imprisoned
12:10because of desertion, and then he's off again.
12:14And, you know, Mary, at this point, I'm assuming, has no children,
12:17like, hasn't had the opportunity to have any children.
12:21So, what happens next?
12:22This might give you a clue.
12:25Is this a birth certificate?
12:27It is.
12:27Right, OK. Yes.
12:28So, 1914, oh, I've spotted a Billsborough.
12:34Yes.
12:35Susanna? Susanna, yeah.
12:37So, Mary's had a little girl.
12:39Her name does have the name of my great-grandfather, Billsborough,
12:42but not Nunnery.
12:45There's a gap.
12:47There's no name of the father.
12:49Thomas Billsborough is an on-the-birth certificate,
12:53and my great-grandmother is still Mary Nunnery.
12:59Now we're in 1915, another girl comes along,
13:03Mary, another Billsborough.
13:05Mm-hm. But again...
13:07But again, no father is mentioned.
13:111917, we have a boy.
13:13He's John, and no father.
13:15Again, she's having children with my great-grandfather,
13:20Thomas Billsborough, and she's married to Mr Nunnery.
13:24This is wild.
13:26Yeah, I mean, it's rare.
13:28You've got about 4% of children born outside marriage at this time.
13:31Really?
13:32We have this interesting marginal note added on here.
13:38Parents now married?
13:40Yeah.
13:40Right.
13:41Mary and Thomas are now married after having three children together outside marriage.
13:47So would she have been divorced, then, from her first husband?
13:52Divorce was really difficult at this stage.
13:55Right. Goodness me.
13:55Let me show you the next document and put your mind at rest...
14:00This is amazing.
14:01...about the status of her marriage.
14:16Mm-hm.
14:22And we know from the marginal note that the marriage to Thomas, your great-grandfather,
14:30took place after Joseph had died.
14:32Right. So she only married him when she could do so legally.
14:36Right.
14:37I can't help feeling, like, really sorry for Mary because, I don't know,
14:43like, with her first marriage, maybe it was...
14:47Just, obviously, it wasn't what she expected it to be.
14:49And then she met my great-grandfather, Thomas, who loves her,
14:55and they've had three children and now they're married.
14:57Yes.
14:58So then we can learn a little bit about Mary and Thomas' subsequent life together
15:05because they go on to have more children.
15:08That is nine altogether.
15:10Nine?
15:13Wow. That is a lot.
15:15So all of the children are my great-grandfather's?
15:19Yes.
15:19She was kind of just always pregnant.
15:21She would have been, yes.
15:22Yeah.
15:23Can you imagine nine children?
15:24That puts me to shame. I could only handle one.
15:27Goodness me.
15:28And I should imagine, unless something extraordinary has happened,
15:33it's still pretty difficult living conditions.
15:36So we can pick your great-grandmother up in the 1939 register.
15:42So there's my great-granny, Murray, and this is my nan.
15:48Yes.
15:48There's Nanny Kaye.
15:49Catherine Chisholm, that's her married name.
15:52Mm-hm.
15:52We've got Billsborough, crossed out.
15:54Yes, so she wouldn't have been Chisholm at that point,
15:56but it gets written in later on.
15:58It goes later on.
15:59OK.
15:59She would only have been 16.
16:01So she's there with her mum, who's Mary.
16:30Mm-hm.
16:32Do you know what I mean?
16:33That's a very good question.
16:38My great-grandmother, Mary, is listed as being a moneylender.
16:43And I really don't know what that means.
16:45I think in today's terms, I imagine, like, some big burly guy turning up at your door,
16:51you know, battering your door down to get the money back.
16:53And that was what my great-grandmother was doing.
16:57So I need to find out how that worked in those days.
17:05Melanie's meeting local historian Pat Ayers at Liverpool Central Library.
17:10Hiya.
17:11Hiya.
17:11I'm Melanie.
17:11Nice to meet you.
17:13How are you, Pat?
17:14I will.
17:21Lovely.
17:25I've been finding out all about my great-grandmother, Mary.
17:28In 1939, I know she's a moneylender.
17:32She's living with my nan, Catherine, who's a cloth sorter.
17:36Do you have any idea what a cloth sorter actually did?
17:39I have no idea.
17:41It was the worst of the worst jobs in Liverpool.
17:44No way?
17:45Yeah. Why?
17:45It was entirely women's work.
17:47They would be presented with these hundredweight bales.
17:50They sit on the floor to sort it, and it was filthy dirty.
17:54The atmosphere that they worked in was appalling.
17:57It was hot.
17:59It was damp.
18:00It was foul-smelling.
18:02If I remember correctly, after looking at the documents,
18:05I think she was 16 when she was doing this job.
18:08So she was just a child, really.
18:11Yeah, yeah.
18:11As my nan got older, she had some issues with her lungs.
18:16And I wonder if that stems back to those days.
18:19Absolutely.
18:19I mean, so many of those women suffered poor health while they were doing it.
18:23It's filthy work.
18:24It's really, really low-paid.
18:27The whole family is living in exceptionally poor circumstances.
18:31Gosh.
18:32You know, they had to be for her to be engaged in that work.
18:35Well, this is what confuses me about my great-grandmother being a moneylender.
18:39If you're lending money, you must have it to lend.
18:41So she's working for somebody else, I'm assuming.
18:44No, no.
18:45No, she'll have been working for herself.
18:47Okay.
18:48It wasn't that hard to set up as a moneylender if you could set aside some margin over your subsistence
18:57needs.
18:58So if they were independent-minded, women would try to do something on their own account.
19:03It's interesting, you know, just thinking about some of my own traits.
19:08Like, why am I, like, so determined or so driven, so independent?
19:12And it's like, sounds like I come from a long line.
19:15Feisty women, really.
19:18If you were engaged in the business that your great-grandmother was engaged in,
19:22then you had to be really savvy on top of things.
19:25I mean, she's probably a matriarch of the First Order.
19:28I can imagine.
19:29Yeah.
19:30But my nan was like that, too.
19:32Yeah, absolutely formidable.
19:33And the interest that was charged on the loans that moneylenders made out was actually quite high.
19:41It was something like 400%.
19:43That seems a lot.
19:45So although they're only lending small sums out, quite quickly it could become a profitable business,
19:50provided everybody paid you back.
19:53But then I just wonder, you know, what lengths would she have had to have gone to sometimes to get
19:57that money back?
19:58There's a document here that might be really helpful.
20:01OK.
20:02In giving you an insight.
20:04Moneylenders Bill.
20:05There's a debate in Parliament going on around the issue of moneylending in Liverpool.
20:10OK.
20:11Three years ago, a report found that in 1924 there were 1,380 registered moneylenders in that area,
20:20of whom over 1,100 were women.
20:24Yeah.
20:24OK.
20:25I'm getting a real picture of what this is now, because none of these people are wealthy.
20:30No.
20:31By any stretch of the imagination.
20:33No.
20:33Everybody's living cantermouth.
20:34But there are certain people in the community, they've worked, they've put a little bit aside,
20:39and they're able to, you know, have this as a business.
20:43Yeah.
20:44So why then?
20:45I mean, we'll read on a little bit more, but for this to become an issue that's being debated in
20:51Parliament
20:52suggests that there are some concerns about it.
20:55OK.
20:55So, all the women cater for the borrowers of small sums, often charging exorbitant rates of interest.
21:03And many of them act as terrible bullies to their clients.
21:08Oh.
21:11I don't want to think of my great-grandma as a bully.
21:14I'd painted a really lovely picture now of her really helping the community.
21:18But of course, there's, you know, there's going to be people who aren't going to pay.
21:22And then if you've got to get your money back, you've got to get it back, haven't you?
21:25Mm-hm.
21:26So, yeah.
21:29They also report that many women borrow without their husbands' knowledge
21:33and live in constant terror of exposure by rapacious moneylenders.
21:39Oh, my goodness.
21:40We have known of many lives which are full of misery due entirely to the habit of recourse to moneylenders.
21:50That's quite a tough read.
21:52It's pretty awful.
21:53So, what would this mean for my great-grandmother Mary?
21:57So, this 1927 moneylenders bill then lays down a new law that says that everybody has to be licensed.
22:04Mm-hm.
22:04Holding a license gives someone public credibility of some sort.
22:08If your great-grandmother had wanted to be licensed, then she would have to stand up in open court and
22:15defend her character.
22:16So, they didn't make it easy?
22:17Oh, far from, no.
22:19To find out whether her great-grandmother Mary was operating her business legally, Melanie is searching a register of moneylenders
22:27from 1939.
22:29Here it is, the register.
22:34Let's have a look.
22:37Right, these aren't any names that I recognise.
22:43So, we're now...
22:44We're heading into...
22:45We're in July now.
22:47I'm seeing names, but then...
22:50Not her name.
22:51Robin Rhodes again.
22:54I'm starting to get a bit of a feeling I'm not going to find it.
23:00There she is.
23:02Mary Billsborough.
23:04I knew it would jump out to me.
23:06This is in July.
23:086th of July, 1939.
23:10Her registration is granted.
23:13So, she did it.
23:14Oh, God, I'm such an emotional wreck.
23:17She did it.
23:19She stood up in front of people, proved her character in probably very intimidating circumstances.
23:27And she got her registration.
23:31That actually makes me feel very proud.
23:36I am a rule abider.
23:38I'm not a rule breaker.
23:40And that's just funny that she did it by the book.
23:43And I always like to do things by the book.
23:46So, I do have something else that you might like to see.
23:49Okay.
23:51So, Billsborough.
23:53Oh, okay.
23:55So, this is deaths.
23:57Yeah.
23:58And she died 13th of October 1973.
24:02Yeah.
24:03And this is her probate.
24:05That looks like quite a lot of money, that.
24:07In today's terms, that would be more than £46,000.
24:12Oh, my goodness.
24:13From what she's come from.
24:15It's remarkable.
24:17Wow.
24:19She saw many things in her life.
24:21Lived through lots of tough times.
24:23And, yeah, came out on top.
24:27Girl power.
24:36I have learnt so much about my great grandmother, Mary.
24:40I actually feel really close to her, even though I never met her.
24:45She came from nothing.
24:47She was a completely self-made woman.
24:50She kind of, against the odds, achieved something that was really difficult for any woman in her position.
24:57I know that my great grandmother's maiden name was Flaherty.
25:03And I was convinced I had some Irish roots.
25:07I'm still very intrigued.
25:10Melanie discovered in the 1911 census that Mary's father, her great-great-grandfather, was Patrick Flaherty, a dock labourer in
25:19Liverpool.
25:21She's meeting genealogist Rachel Rick to see if she can push this line further back, to Ireland.
25:28Hiya. Hiya.
25:29Lovely to meet you. I'm Melanie.
25:31I'm Rachel.
25:35I've been finding out so much I didn't know about my great-grandmother, Mary Billsborough.
25:40Yeah.
25:40Now, that was her married name.
25:42Yeah.
25:43I saw her on some records yesterday.
25:46Flaherty? I'm not quite sure of the pronunciation, but I'm really intrigued to know where that comes from.
25:51Okay. I can tell you a little bit more.
25:54Fantastic.
25:54Ooh.
25:56Okay.
25:57Yeah.
25:57That's my dad, then Nanny Kaye, my great-grandmother, Mary Flaherty made her name, Billsborough, married name.
26:06She was born in Liverpool.
26:08Then we go back to her father, Patrick Flaherty, also born in Liverpool.
26:13His dad was also called Patrick Flaherty, and he was born in Ireland.
26:18I knew it!
26:20I knew there was some Irish in me.
26:22Yeah, this is so interesting.
26:24I think what's surprised me the most, so far, is how far back my family go in Liverpool.
26:31Yeah.
26:32You know, because I knew there was an Irish connection, but I thought it came sooner.
26:35So, it's my great-great-great-grandparents.
26:39Yeah.
26:40Great-great-great-grandparents that were Irish.
26:44Wow.
26:45Oh, yeah.
26:46This is getting more and more exciting.
26:48So, do we know anything else about Patrick and Catherine?
26:52Well, records in Ireland are patchy.
26:56We don't have any information about the birth or marriage of either of your great-great-great-grandparents.
27:04Mm-hm.
27:04But we have got a record that you might like to see.
27:07Yes.
27:08Show me.
27:09Okay.
27:10So, this is...
27:11Is that 1846?
27:12It is, yeah.
27:13Okay.
27:14This was...
27:16Yeah, I'm really struggling to see it.
27:18It's okay.
27:19We've put a transcript.
27:20Oh, okay.
27:21Yeah.
27:21Yeah.
27:22This is a baptism in the parish of Croome.
27:25Yeah.
27:25It's Maria Patricius Blarty.
27:28So, Maria, is she their firstborn?
27:30That's right.
27:31Okay.
27:32Where's Croome?
27:33Croome is in Limerick.
27:35Limerick.
27:36Limerick.
27:36Yeah.
27:37Oh, my goodness.
27:38I love the kind of, the legend of families, because I was always told it was Dublin.
27:45Yeah.
27:45Where our relatives came from.
27:47Wow.
27:48Yeah.
27:50Carhu, somewhere else I haven't heard of.
27:53Where is that?
27:54So, Carhu is just outside Croome.
27:57It's in Limerick.
27:58Oh, I need to, er, I need to go and see these places for myself.
28:03I think you do.
28:04Yeah.
28:06Melanie has discovered that her great-great-great-grandparents, Patrick Flaherty and Catherine Burns, were Irish.
28:13Their son, Melanie's great-great-grandfather, also called Patrick, was born in Liverpool in 1861.
28:22But a baptism record for his older sister, Maria, reveals the family were from County Limerick in Ireland.
28:35I've been to Ireland quite a few times over the years, but I've never been to County Limerick.
28:41Looking around, I can imagine it's quite a wonderful place to live.
28:45It's beautiful, idyllic, rural.
28:48So, my three times great-grandparents, Patrick and Catherine, must have had a really good reason to leave.
28:56And I want to find out what that was.
29:05Melanie's come to St Mary's Roman Catholic Church in Croome, where her great-great-great-grandparents' first child, Maria, was
29:12baptised.
29:13She's meeting local historian, Katrina Crowe.
29:15Hi, Melanie.
29:16Nice to meet you.
29:17Hi, Melanie.
29:17I'm Katrina, and you're very welcome to Croome, if you'd like to make your way inside.
29:20I would.
29:21Let's go.
29:24Wow.
29:27So peaceful.
29:30Okay, so if you'd like to have a look at this.
29:33Yes.
29:35County of Limerick, Parish of Croome, and there's Carreau, where Patrick and Catherine lived.
29:44What is this document?
29:46It's a record called Tenure Book, which was used for property valuation.
29:51Mm-hmm.
29:52Okay, so we've got Patrick Flaherty, my three times great-grandfather.
29:57He's the occupier.
30:00So I'm thinking this is his landlord, Reverend Trench.
30:04Okay, and I'm going to appear content of farm.
30:08So they are farmers, and they're renting.
30:12He's renting a house and ten acres of land.
30:16What was his life like as a farmer of that much land?
30:19With ten acres, he's classed as being a small farmer.
30:23And at the time that your great-great-great grandparents, Patrick and Catherine, are starting their family,
30:29this is when we're heading into the famine.
30:33The famine starts in 1845, and their first child is born in 1846.
30:40Okay, so that was the toughest time here in Ireland.
30:44It's regarded as a watershed moment in Irish history in terms of changing its population,
30:49but changing its whole economy and its society.
30:54In the 1840s, Melanie's family, like most of Ireland's population, depended on potatoes for their daily food.
31:03But in 1845, the potato crop was devastated by blight, a fungal disease, leading to what is now known as
31:13the Great Famine.
31:14Millions were left vulnerable to sickness and starvation.
31:20That must have been pretty terrifying times.
31:23Yeah, the west of Ireland and the south of Ireland were the worst hit.
31:26Yeah.
31:27So this is from about 100 years after the famine.
31:30Yeah.
31:31It's collected folklore.
31:32So this would have been reflecting back to this time.
31:34Yes.
31:35The blight extended over three years here in Croome.
31:39The deaths in my native place were many and horrible.
31:43The poor famine-stricken people were found by the wayside.
31:47Emaciated corpses, partly green from eating ducks and nettles, and partly blue from cholera and dysentery.
32:01Catherine and Patrick will be seeing friends, family, loved ones, their community dying around them in really horrible circumstances.
32:16Yeah.
32:17That's a lot.
32:18That's a lot to take in.
32:26Amid the desperate situation, many landowners chose to evict their tenants, sell their land, or change how it was used.
32:41Hundreds of thousands of families lost their livelihoods and their homes.
32:48So this is an advertisement from the Limerick Chronicle in 1847.
32:53Okay, so Cahoo, situate 10 miles from Limerick and one of Croome.
33:00It contains 168 acres.
33:03Terms of sale can be obtained on application to the Reverend Trench.
33:09So he was Patrick's landlord.
33:11So basically he is selling the farm where they lived.
33:14Frederick Trench is losing money.
33:17Some landlords are going into debt and risking bankruptcy.
33:20So for him, it's really, it's an asset.
33:24It's business, right?
33:25It's business, exactly.
33:26There he was, Patrick, with a young family, losing everything.
33:30It's breaking point.
33:32This is the last record to show you.
33:35Okay.
33:38We have this as well.
33:40So this is a baptism.
33:421848, we're still in the famine.
33:45So Margaret, their second daughter.
33:47Yes.
33:49Oh, they've moved.
33:50Mm-hm.
33:51Parish of St Michael's.
33:53Limerick City.
33:55In the summer of 1848, Patrick and his family leave Cahoo.
34:01So I think the next part of this for me is going to Limerick
34:06and seeing if I can find out what was waiting for them there.
34:18Everything I've just found out is pretty hard to get your head around.
34:23The Great Famine here in Ireland, we know.
34:27It was a huge part of history that changed the country.
34:32But having relatives and feeling that closeness to these people,
34:36even though I never knew them, that connection and hearing the reality of it
34:41and kind of putting yourself in their shoes, it's shocking.
34:48Melanie is retracing the steps of her three times great-grandparents
34:52and travelling to Limerick City.
34:55She's meeting famine historian Paul O'Brien
34:58in the area where the family lived.
35:02Hi.
35:02Good morning, Melanie.
35:03Nice to meet you, Paul.
35:05Welcome to Limerick. How are you?
35:05Thank you. I'm good.
35:10I know my three times great-grandparents, Catherine and Patrick,
35:16ended up here and I'm just wondering if things are any better.
35:20They're in a new context.
35:22They've come from the country, they're country people
35:24and they're now in the city.
35:25So the family are considerably landless labourers,
35:30really the lowest of the low in terms of the social hierarchy.
35:34They have nothing.
35:36Well, there have been a lot of the countryside people
35:39coming into the city.
35:40Absolutely.
35:41So people came from all around, all feeding into Limerick,
35:45because Limerick is a port.
35:46Right.
35:47A very busy port at the time.
35:50And a further indication of a family's time in Limerick,
35:53can you read a name there?
35:54Does that say John?
35:55That says John.
35:56Patrick and Catherine.
35:59OK, so is this their first boy?
36:01This is their first boy.
36:02So they've got two daughters already.
36:04Two daughters indeed.
36:05And now they've got a little boy.
36:06So there's three children now.
36:08So at this point, I'm assuming it's more and more pressure.
36:12Sure is.
36:14Thousands of desperate families, including Melanie's, fled to urban areas like Limerick City.
36:20Living in squalid housing, and with not enough work to go round, many families faced even harsher conditions than in
36:28the countryside.
36:32Imagine you're there, hoping and wanting this work, probably with hundreds of people, right? All going for the same work.
36:39Yeah, thousands of people.
36:41And you're just...
36:41Wow.
36:42When they had their own farm.
36:44Indeed.
36:45Absolutely.
36:45And lost it all.
36:46Limerick City at this stage, it would have been a terrible place if you were on that lower rung of
36:52the ladder.
36:53In many cases, you would not know where your next meal was coming from.
36:58Over one million people died during the Great Famine in Ireland, and as many as two million fled the country,
37:05mainly to America, Australia and Britain.
37:10So we know what happens to the family next from this.
37:15Another boy.
37:16Edmund.
37:191855.
37:20Ah, here we go.
37:21Liverpool.
37:22So we're no longer in Ireland.
37:24We're no longer in Ireland.
37:25They have hit the final straw.
37:27They can't go on.
37:28Liverpool, I suppose, as well.
37:30It's a sort of promised land.
37:31By the end of the famine, nearly 400,000 Irish people are living in Liverpool.
37:37So I guess there's a community there.
37:40However...
37:44Oh, oh my goodness.
37:47They lose Edmund.
37:49Oh gosh, how sad.
37:53He's died at eight months old.
37:56And they travel to Liverpool, the promised land.
38:00Absolutely.
38:00And they lose a child.
38:07Bronchitis.
38:08After everything they've been through.
38:10That pain for any parent to lose a child.
38:16You just wonder, don't you, how people carry on when they're just faced constantly.
38:21There's just something else, you know, that obstacle.
38:24Yeah.
38:27So I have a little more for you to consider.
38:34So it's a baptism.
38:35So I have a transcription for you.
38:38Right.
38:39So we have a baptism at St Anthony's.
38:42So I'm assuming this is in Liverpool, right?
38:44They've had another son.
38:46Yes.
38:47Patrick.
38:47Patrick.
38:48So this is my great-great-grandfather.
38:50Indeed.
38:51OK.
38:52There he is.
38:53So you're a direct line.
39:03Finding out so much more about the history of our family here in Ireland.
39:06It just makes so much sense to how my grandmother and my great-grandmother were so stoic and strong and
39:15resilient.
39:16My three times great-grandparents, Catherine and Patrick, had had the worst hardships that you could imagine.
39:24And it just totally makes sense that the family have gone on to be really tough.
39:30I know without my family fighting for their own survival through the generations, I wouldn't be here at all.
39:44Having discovered how her dad's family ended up in Liverpool, Melanie now wants to find out how far back her
39:50roots in the city go on her mum Joan's side.
39:57To help her, she's meeting genealogist Rachel King.
40:02Hiya.
40:02Hiya.
40:02I'm Rachel.
40:03Nice to meet you, Rachel.
40:04Do you want to come through?
40:05Yeah, let's do it.
40:10I've been finding out a lot about my family and there's a lot of Liverpool, but there's a little bit
40:16of a question mark when it comes to my mum's side.
40:19OK.
40:19What can you tell me?
40:20First up, a family tree.
40:24Right.
40:25Oh, I see lots!
40:27There's so much Liverpool.
40:31Keep looking, that's all I'm going to say.
40:33Yes.
40:34So, there's mum, my grandparents, Vincent and Alice, and then my great-grandparents, Thomas and Eliza.
40:42We go off in two directions.
40:44I'm seeing lots of Liverpool on this side.
40:47Yeah.
40:48But on this side, we've got Eliza, my great-grandmother.
40:51Her mum and dad were born in Liverpool.
40:55Then Margaret Venn.
40:56Her dad was from Liverpool.
40:57But, aha, bingo!
41:00Devon!
41:01Rebecca Keefe.
41:03She's from Plymouth.
41:04That is the most surprising thing to me.
41:07With my family, obviously, lots of Liverpool.
41:10Yeah.
41:10But the south of England is a bit of a surprise.
41:13Yeah.
41:14And then we go even further back to Thomas Keefe and his wife, Rebecca Widgery.
41:21They were both Devon.
41:23Yeah.
41:23OK.
41:24Do we know anything about my southern ancestry?
41:27Thomas is quite an interesting chap.
41:29Oh, is he?
41:30So, let me work out who this relationship set out.
41:33Thomas is my four times great-grandfather.
41:37Great-great-great-grandfather.
41:39OK.
41:40Yeah.
41:40So, we're going back to the early 1800s now.
41:43Yep.
41:46OK.
41:47There he is at the top.
41:48He's born in October 1818.
41:52So, what this document is, is an application register for the Greenwich Hospital School.
41:58OK.
41:59And if we look at this side...
42:01Residence.
42:03I can't quite read that.
42:04What does it say?
42:05It says workhouse.
42:06Oh!
42:08Oh, goodness.
42:09So, Thomas was living in a workhouse.
42:11Yeah.
42:12So, at this point, do we know how old he is here?
42:14So, this is 1828.
42:161828.
42:16Yeah.
42:17So, he was 10 when he was applying to go to this school.
42:20OK.
42:21I mean, I don't know.
42:21If I'm jumping to conclusions, is he an orphan?
42:24Yeah.
42:25And he's lost both parents.
42:25So, he's an orphan by eight.
42:27He's old.
42:28Yeah.
42:29Oh.
42:31Oh, and then he just ends up somewhere I imagine is horrific.
42:35Yeah.
42:36So, obviously, he's trying to get out.
42:38And did he make it to the school?
42:40He didn't actually get in.
42:42OK.
42:42OK.
42:43Oh, poor boy.
42:44So, he's an adult the next time we pick him up on 1851 census.
42:49OK.
42:51And we can see there, Thomas?
42:54Your great-great-great-great-great-grandfather.
42:57He's the head of the household.
42:59OK.
42:59But he's no longer in a workhouse.
43:01He's got an actual address.
43:03So, he's the head of the household.
43:04And he has a wife.
43:06Rebecca and one, two, three daughters.
43:10Yep.
43:10Rebecca, Mary and Elizabeth.
43:12So, he's 35.
43:15Mm-hmm.
43:17And this is his occupation.
43:19He's a baker.
43:21So, his outlook probably was quite bleak.
43:24He didn't get an education, which he tried to do.
43:27But he's ended up with a profession.
43:29Yep.
43:30But there's more.
43:31OK. Good.
43:32Good, good, good.
43:33Hit me.
43:34So, the Western Daily Press.
43:36This is October 1858.
43:40So, this is what we're interested in.
43:44Insurance notices.
43:45London and Provincial Provident Society.
43:48This is effectively an advertisement.
43:51Mm-hmm.
43:52Selling insurance.
43:53OK.
43:56Bristol District.
43:58Mr Thomas Keefe.
44:01Manager.
44:03He was a baker.
44:04Now, he is a manager at an insurance company.
44:12That's quite a leap, isn't it?
44:13Yeah.
44:13It's a very, very different career.
44:15Yeah.
44:15I wonder why he changed so dramatically.
44:18He's also not in Devon anymore.
44:20Because his address here is actually in Bristol.
44:23He's had a move as well.
44:25To Bristol?
44:25Why?
44:27Why, why, why, why, why?
44:29That is really puzzling, isn't it?
44:31And my mind is literally leaping all over the place, all the things that it could be.
44:39To answer her questions about her four times great-grandfather's surprising career change, Melanie has travelled to Bristol to meet
44:47with insurance historian James Neal.
44:50Hello.
44:51Hello, I'm James.
44:52Lovely to meet you.
44:53Nice to meet you.
44:53Shall we go outside?
44:54Let's do it.
45:00I've been finding out about my four times great-grandfather, Thomas Keefe.
45:05I think 1858, we pick him up here in Bristol and he is working in insurance.
45:11But seven years prior to that, he's a baker.
45:14Right.
45:14But it's, you know, I just keep going back to his beginnings.
45:18And it is, he's really done well for himself.
45:21Absolutely.
45:22Insurance was, it was a kind of a big and aspirational industry at this point, so it was really growing.
45:28These companies were looking for people who could sell life insurance policies, because that's what it is, life insurance, to
45:34ordinary people.
45:35And he's a baker.
45:36He knows lots of ordinary people.
45:38He might be good at selling things.
45:39He is probably also good with money.
45:43And by the time he comes here, of course, he's become the manager of the company.
45:49So he'd worked his way up?
45:51Absolutely.
45:52He's certainly risen quite a long way from where he started.
45:54And I think he's really part of that aspiring middle class, lower middle class perhaps.
45:59Although things do become a little complicated if we turn to this from the local paper.
46:05Yeah, so we've got the Bristol Daily Post.
46:07And this is July 1860.
46:10Bristol Police Court.
46:13Yep.
46:13Eek.
46:14OK.
46:15Oh!
46:16Mr Keefe charged with embezzlement!
46:19No!
46:21Mr Thomas Daniel Keefe of Three Clifton Place was brought up on a warrant charged with having embezzled £2.11
46:31shillings.
46:32Today, that's probably £200 or more.
46:35So it's not a small sum to be accused of stealing.
46:38Yeah.
46:38Wow!
46:40I need to read on, I need to get to the bottom of this.
46:43Mr Moat said defendant had been agent of the Society for Bristol.
46:47So he's no longer managing this district in Bristol.
46:51That's right.
46:51Sounds like he's lost his job.
46:53Oh.
46:54It was his duty to receive premiums from insurers and to pay medical fees for the examination of such.
47:02So he would have been dealing in cash.
47:03Yeah.
47:04And as the manager he had to make sure that the agents brought him money from people's premiums.
47:10And from that money he would also have paid a doctor to examine the policy holder.
47:14Because he didn't want to insure somebody who turned out to have consumption or be an alcoholic and not live
47:19very long.
47:19Because the company would lose lots of money that way.
47:22He, Mr M, had ascertained that the doctor had not been paid these fees.
47:28Consequently, Mr Keefe must have put the money into his own pocket.
47:34Wow!
47:35We need to know the outcome of this case.
47:37It's gripping.
47:40So, Mr Keefe, here.
47:42The medical fees have been allowed to go on and I have paid them in a lump.
47:47The case is trumped up to ruin my character.
47:53I literally, I can see it all now.
47:56Mr Bryce, never mind your character.
48:00Laughter.
48:01Let us look at the facts.
48:03I mean, there is some serious bad blood in this room, isn't there?
48:07Absolutely.
48:08Accusations flying backwards and forwards.
48:10Yeah!
48:11Because life insurance also, earlier in the century, had a really bad reputation for fraud.
48:16He's being publicly accused of something to protect their reputation.
48:20OK, so we think maybe the business is in trouble.
48:22It's like he's being set up.
48:24Yeah.
48:25Basically.
48:25Exactly.
48:25The case was then adjourned for a fortnight.
48:28The defendant being admitted to bail.
48:30They need to adjourn it to find out whether they can find evidence to clarify one way or
48:36another whether he did embezzle this money.
48:38There's a lot resting on it.
48:40He is out of a job with these people.
48:42No income.
48:44Yeah.
48:44And if he's an innocent man.
48:46Yeah.
48:47Please tell me you know what happens next.
48:50I do have something else I can show you.
48:52Yeah?
48:52And it's over here.
48:55Over there?
48:56That machine there, yes.
48:58It's a microfilm reader.
48:59Really?
48:59Come on then.
49:00Shall we go and have a look?
49:00Yeah.
49:01I've got to see this.
49:02Oh, my goodness.
49:04I'm feeling quite anxious.
49:07Ah, where are we looking?
49:10Western Daily Press.
49:12It's now July 1863.
49:15Mm-hmm.
49:17Lots of teeny tiny writing.
49:21Ah.
49:23Trial of local insurance case.
49:25The case of Keefe versus the London and Provincial Provident Society was heard before a special jury.
49:33Sergeant Parry, on behalf of defendants, said his side would assent to a verdict against them of £100 and costs.
49:44Along with an apology to Mr Keefe withdrawing all charges against him.
49:51He was an innocent man.
49:53He was.
49:54So long.
49:54Mr Keefe is now residing at Liverpool.
49:58OK.
49:59Where he acts for the United Kingdom Insurance Society.
50:04This is 1863.
50:06That's right.
50:06This is like three years past this has happened.
50:09And thank goodness he's obviously gone on.
50:12He's made a big move.
50:13Right.
50:14But at least he's still been able to work in that industry that he knows so well.
50:18Absolutely.
50:19So even though they've tried to ruin him, they haven't.
50:24To find out about her four times great-grandfather's new life, Melanie has come back to Liverpool to meet historian
50:31Ian Kaywood.
50:32Hello there.
50:33Hello Melanie, welcome to Liverpool.
50:34Thank you so much.
50:35Nice to meet you.
50:36Nice to meet you too.
50:37I know my four times great-grandfather, Thomas, has moved up here to Liverpool and I really want to know
50:44why.
50:44Well, it's a bit unclear exactly why.
50:47It's probably fairly likely he came here because there was an opportunity, because he becomes a superintendent.
50:52It's possible of course as well that he was trying to get us far away from Bristol where his name
50:56was a little tarnished.
50:57Yes.
50:58Best to move away.
51:00Yes, but a fresh start and an opportunity.
51:02I've got this document here which demonstrates that he was doing more than just insurance.
51:07OK, so is this an old newspaper, the Liverpool Mercury?
51:09We don't have that anymore, do we?
51:11No, no.
51:11The permissive bill movement on Saturday afternoon, an open-air meeting in support of the permissive prohibitory liquor bill was
51:19held in front of St George's Hall.
51:21Right where we are.
51:22Right here.
51:23Right here.
51:23There was a large crowd, probably a thousand persons present.
51:28Yep.
51:29Mr T. D. O'Keefe.
51:31O'Keefe.
51:32Presided.
51:33I know him as Thomas Keefe.
51:35Yes.
51:35He's become O'Keefe.
51:36He's become O'Keefe.
51:37We're not entirely sure why that is.
51:38We don't know if he changed his name to distance himself from the scandal.
51:42Or he may just simply have adopted the term to fit in more with people in Liverpool, with his community.
51:47OK, so he's here on these steps.
51:49Yep.
51:49Right there.
51:50How many times I've come into town and done my shopping.
51:54Yeah.
51:55I've performed at the Empire.
51:56Wow.
51:56Literally across the way, not knowing.
51:59Your great-great-grandfather spoke to a thousand people.
52:02He entertained a crowd.
52:04Slightly different type of crowd.
52:05I'm actually quite overwhelmed just at the idea of that.
52:10That's crazy.
52:11It is.
52:12There's a big meeting supporting what, from my knowledge and my guessing, is it's anti-alcohol.
52:21Anti-drink.
52:22He's in charge of this meeting and he's presiding over it.
52:25So, the chairman, so this is Thomas, in opening the meeting said they were met to support the bill.
52:32If the barley, he said, which was consumed for making intoxicating liquor, was thrown into the Mersey, we might feel
52:39aggrieved at such a waste.
52:41But it was worse than that, for it was turned on the country like a stream of liquid fire.
52:47Isn't that brilliant?
52:48It is.
52:48He was a hell of an orator.
52:49A stream of liquid fire.
52:51Yeah.
52:52He's basically, you know, saying, this is a, this is a conspiracy.
52:56Yes.
52:56Against you, the working man.
52:58Yes.
52:58And he's using language like that.
53:00I love this guy.
53:00He's brilliant.
53:01He's saying that this is something that we need to fight back against.
53:03Yes.
53:04Did the bill go through?
53:05Er, I'm afraid not.
53:07I'm afraid not.
53:07Erm, it wasn't successful.
53:10Right.
53:11But I think the most important thing for O'Keeffe was it, you know, it helps to establish your great
53:15-great-great-great-grandfather
53:16as somebody who's, you know, a major player in local politics.
53:20If you would like to come inside, there's a few more documents I can show you.
53:23Great.
53:28This reveals what else he was involved in.
53:31OK.
53:32So this is The Beehive.
53:34It's a trade union magazine, so it's a working-class publication.
53:38OK.
53:39And this is now 1866.
53:42The Liverpool Reform League.
53:43So on Monday evening, the Burgesses of Lime Street and St Anne's Wards held a meeting to promote the reform
53:50movement.
53:51OK.
53:52So what's this about?
53:54They're campaigning to have the number of people able to vote significantly increased.
54:00So who is able to vote at this time?
54:02We're talking at the moment about only 20% of adult males.
54:0520%?
54:0620%.
54:06That's tiny.
54:07It is tiny.
54:08I mean, 20% is, in a sense, the representation of, if you like, the elite.
54:12A lot of people who paid rates or paid taxes, like your great-great-great-great-grandfather,
54:19wouldn't be allowed to vote.
54:21This is something we completely take for granted now, isn't it?
54:24Yeah.
54:24You know, obviously, women haven't got the vote yet.
54:27This is, you know, pre-the suffragettes.
54:29Yeah.
54:31But, wow, to think working men...
54:34Yeah.
54:35...paying taxes...
54:36...couldn't have their vote.
54:37Yeah.
54:37The third resolution was proposed by Mr T. D. O'Keefe.
54:42This meeting expresses its cordial approval of the extension of the elective franchise
54:49to all householders and lodgers for the relief of the poor and vote by ballot.
54:56Mm.
54:56And hereby pledges itself to promote in every legitimate way the attainment of that object.
55:04He is fighting, isn't he?
55:06Yes.
55:07He is fighting for equality, for people to have this vote, to be able to do it anonymously.
55:14Yes.
55:14To be able to speak up and be heard.
55:16For the relief of the poor, remember where O'Keefe started.
55:21Absolutely.
55:22And he wants the better for all, it would seem.
55:26And he's willing to speak up for that.
55:28And to have somebody like, you know, your great-great-great-great-grandfather actually standing there,
55:33that articulate, self-motivated, determined, working man,
55:38who, in a sense, you know, Britain had built its great-great wealth on.
55:42He's living proof of what can be achieved, isn't he?
55:45He's living proof, absolutely.
55:45So how soon after this did things start to change?
55:49Very, very quickly.
55:511867, the next year, Second Reform Act is passed, and guess what?
55:55All adult male householders get the vote.
55:57Wow!
55:58Yes.
55:58And my four-time great-grandfather was a part of that.
56:01Yep.
56:02And the secret ballot is introduced four years after that.
56:04Wow, that's amazing.
56:05Yeah.
56:09My four-time great-grandfather, Thomas O'Keefe,
56:13I truly feel like he was a good, upstanding man who had suffered in his life.
56:21He had a very difficult start, became an orphan by the age of eight, was in the workhouse, but also
56:27achieved.
56:28And it feels like he wanted that for other people.
56:31I see Liverpool in a very different light now.
56:34I've grown up, coming into the city, and little did I know that so much of the lives before me
56:42were also being played out in these streets.
56:45And I'm really, really emotional talking about it, but with both sides of the family, the Flarties came from Limerick,
56:54and O'Keefe's from Devon.
56:58Liverpool's been hope, it's been refuge, it's been reinvention.
57:03They've overcome so much against the odds at times.
57:07They've been hardworking, they've stood up for themselves, they've stood up for what they believe in.
57:12And I like to think that I have some of that in me too.
57:16I like to think that I have some of that in me too.
57:46I like to think that it's fine.
57:46But if you have a person who is a part of the city who is a part of the city
57:47and you're in the city who is a part of the city,
57:47at the city, from the city, from the city of Liverpool,
57:47And I like to think of them.