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00:00Imagine lacing up your running shoes for your daily lockdown exercise and just a few years
00:04later qualifying to represent your country. It might sound impossible but for today's guest
00:09Anya Culling it's her reality. When I was representing England I let the pressure get
00:14to me a bit and I had quite a lot of imposter syndrome. I couldn't believe I was on start
00:19lines looking left and right to my biggest role models and people I've looked up to.
00:24Anya is an elite marathon runner who burst onto the athletic scene by miraculously shaving nearly
00:28two hours off her marathon time going from a four hour amateur finish to an elite two hours 34.
00:35But her meteoric rise to the top came with a massive hidden cost. After overcoming a facial
00:40tumour and autoimmune disease in her teens her relentless pursuit of athletic success
00:44masked a new health crisis characterised by overtraining, celiac disease and the loss of her
00:49menstrual cycle. I thought that losing my menstrual cycle was part of training hard and it's bizarre
00:58saying that out loud now but it almost became a badge of honour to be like yeah I've lost my
01:05menstrual cycle because it meant that I was pushing my body to the limit and I thought more was more
01:11whereas in reality the way you build fitness is well you only build fitness from the training that
01:18you recover from. Today Anya explains the reality of her rapid ascent from amateur to pro exploring the
01:23dangerous normalisation of extreme fatigue and missing periods in female sports. Her story shows
01:29that true wellness isn't about ignoring your body's distress signals to push harder it's about
01:33realising that recovery is where the real training happens. Anya Culling, elite marathon runner and
01:39can we say mindset master? I think that's fair to say. Welcome to Well Enough. Thank you so much for
01:45having me um that's very kind I guess both are kind of true I'd love them to be true. Well
01:50so many people
01:51say running is mental and I think you know you're one of those people that has proven that because
01:56you you have this incredible story where you started out running as an amateur you're now a pro athlete
02:02and so many people ask you the same question which I'm going to ask you as well which is how
02:06on earth did
02:06you get your marathon time down and bamboozle the world with your ability in just a couple of years because
02:12having just run for fun you know getting into it through lockdown as so many people do to then
02:18representing your country and going from that one point to the other in two years that's crazy so
02:24do tell me more about it. It is true so many people ask me and I wish I had the
02:29secret I wish there was
02:30a shortcut but unfortunately I think it really was that I loved the sport so much and I just found
02:38something that like lit a fire inside of me and I just like literally ran with it um yeah it
02:45was a
02:45crazy like three years I dropped my time from four hours 34 for my first ever marathon to two hours
02:5234
02:53and it completely changed my life and I think everybody says consistency is key but it really was
03:00that I found this perfect balance of training enough to gain fitness but not training too much that I
03:07couldn't show up again in like two days time to see my friends again and do another training session
03:12because I genuinely was loving it so much and I saw running as this social thing especially coming out
03:18of the COVID lockdown we were allowed like an hour of permitted exercise a day or whatever and that's
03:23when I really found the love for it but yeah it completely transformed my life and it just became this
03:29social sport for me and I just found these like-minded people that I wasn't racing against we were
03:36definitely all working together to be our best selves and I think we really like grew as people
03:40together everyone was just completely shocked at how you'd managed to run such an amazing time in
03:46such a short space of time but I think the idea that you didn't completely hang yourself out to dry
03:51over it is a good lesson to take home as well I want to ask you a little bit about
03:55what came before
03:56you being a pro athlete because you've said that you had some health issues and that actually you
04:02weren't superhuman and you had a lot of catching up to do when it came to your health yeah I
04:06kind
04:06of think I'm pleased I didn't run competitively as a child because I wonder if the pressure would
04:11have got to me then and I wouldn't have ran into adulthood but yeah I think part of the reason
04:18why
04:18I was so determined to prove to myself how strong I was in running was because I felt like
04:26I didn't have that opportunity growing up a little bit and I know so many people have been through so
04:33many harder things but I really struggled well I had yeah I had quite a few health complications when I
04:39was in my teenage years becoming a young woman and I felt like my independence was taken away from me
04:45a
04:45little bit and when my friends and peers were going out finding themselves um yeah like finding their
04:54independence and flying the nest I felt like I was in and out of hospital appointments quite a lot and
05:03once I'd got the all clear from I had thyroid disease and I had a tumor um thankfully non-cancerous
05:10but once I had that all clear from those things I was like I'm never going to limit myself again
05:16and I've got to make the most of what I have and I think when I found running and it
05:23gave me the
05:23spark and this confidence that is what I'd lost and it just filled a hole and yet transformed like my
05:30whole yeah my mindset I suddenly believed in myself I suddenly thought I was capable of things I didn't
05:36think I was and that went way beyond the miles I was running that went into every aspect of my
05:43life
05:43I suddenly thought I'm capable of things I never dreamt of yeah it makes total sense because also
05:50if you if you are poorly in your teenage years especially as a woman you're forming your
05:56identity the idea that we can do anything as well often dawns on us when we start pushing our limits
06:02right so when we start to realize oh I can stretch more than I could stretch yesterday or I can
06:07run
06:07further than I ran last week we start to think oh hang on a second what might actually be possible
06:13yeah
06:14yeah and I think nowadays especially in the sport and in running the boundaries are shifting at crazy
06:20rates like we are cheap like at the marathon two hours was broken the world records like
06:27as humans we are achieving more than ever before and if someone else can do it I feel like you
06:33then
06:33believe you can do it and I am kind of I'm delusionally optimistic about a lot of things I just
06:39think I can
06:40do things um but I think that is part of that mindset thing that you were saying at the start
06:45that I've always I do think my mindset is my strong point let's talk a little bit about any tips
06:52and
06:53tricks there because we talk about mindset and there are so many things that fall under that umbrella some
06:58people do visualization some people use affirmations some people use manifestation techniques are there
07:05any things that you rely on or is it just kind of dogged self-belief I don't let myself think
07:10for
07:10one second negative thoughts in a race because ultimately that doesn't serve me and I will
07:18transform that into positive thinking and I do think I've got very good at that over time and a lot
07:23of
07:23that is reading into it and manifesting and yeah working out what works for me but someone told me that
07:31you saying I can't do this that's totally made up in your head because you haven't tried yet or you
07:38haven't yeah worked out if you can or not yet so I do do a lot of visualizing and every
07:44like race I'm
07:44like lying in bed picturing the finish line and me crossing it and how I'm gonna feel because that is
07:51what I really deep down want to be true and yeah that has worked for me a lot I also
07:56do a bit of like
07:57journaling I write down all the reasons why I think the race is going to go well because inevitably
08:01I'll be on that start line and I'll go into panic mode and I'll be like I can't do this
08:05but then I
08:06think about what I wrote like a few days before and I'm like you know what I believed in myself
08:10a few
08:11days ago I'm not gonna let this like anticipation get in the way of that and I've had experiences where
08:18when I represented England at Copenhagen Marathon I was meant to be in a team of female athletes and there
08:26was a team of us and then there were also reserves and every single person other than me and one
08:33other
08:34incredible athlete Philippa Bowden who's a really good friend of mine now everybody including the
08:39reserves got injured and we just looked at each other on that start line and we were like this
08:43really is the cherry on the top of the cake now and we've got to go out there and enjoy
08:48ourselves and
08:49not let these nerves get to us and from that point on I think I've really learnt that like the
08:55racing is
08:56just fun that is what we do it for and I'm not going to let myself get worked up about
09:00it because
09:00I love the process I love the training and yet the race I've really learnt to control those nerves and
09:06just go out there and have a good time oh that's what it's all about right I mean I think
09:10most people
09:11who have something that they really enjoy the moment they start doing it in front of a crowd or for
09:17a
09:17living it starts to become a little bit more of a negative experience so fundamentally enjoying it is
09:24where we need to kind of put that pin in and hold it right yeah yeah and I'm not gonna
09:29lie like there
09:30were times especially around that time when I was representing England that I let the pressure get to
09:37me a bit and I had quite a lot of imposter syndrome I couldn't believe I was on start lines
09:42looking left
09:44and right to my biggest role models and people I've looked up to and I was like what am I
09:48doing here but
09:49the reality was I put myself in that position and I wasn't standing next to them like I was part
09:54of
09:54that group of elite athletes on those yeah doing those races and I thought like so many that pro
10:01athletes train a certain way eat a certain way and it's kind of not the truth like the truth is
10:07that
10:09they all just want the best out of themselves and they don't eat just salads and they don't
10:15non-stop train they really listen to their body and the more time I've spent with these incredible
10:21athletes the more I've learned and the more it's challenged all of my original thoughts on how to be
10:28at the top of the game I think our conception of what an athlete looks like has changed too right
10:34we see so many different body types competing in so many different sports we have an insider look at so
10:40many people's lives now because of social media that we never had before so the concept of an athlete
10:46I think is maybe quite different to maybe what we thought it was even you know five ten years ago
10:50yeah definitely um and it's something especially being a female you're really conscious of what your
10:56body looks like and it can be tough I was the fittest I've ever been I went for like some
11:02lab testing I
11:03wanted to know what my heart rate ranges were what my vo2 was and the results that he actually kind
11:09of gave me
11:09were if you lost this much weight you'd be this percentage faster and I remember just being like
11:16thankfully I think I'm over that point where I was quite naive to problems in eating I didn't realize
11:24I was under fueling at the time but I was so aware when he said that I was like I
11:28can't be triggered by
11:29that and it was just such a bizarre thing because now I know and the more people speak and share
11:36their
11:36experiences on social media lighter doesn't equal faster that is something that a coach once said
11:42and it has been reported ever since but yeah ultimately he um had a four-year ban for doping
11:49he was uh his name is Salazar he as part of the Nike Oregon project which also got taken down
11:56because of
11:57all of this but yeah I think that is a really unhealthy message to be giving young athletes
12:03and that's part of the reason again why I'm so pleased I didn't run as a child because growing
12:09up and hearing those things I probably wouldn't have been mature enough at the time to realize
12:14that they're unhelpful I also wonder whether a lot of what we've come to believe is based on
12:20testing for male bodies as well I've been reporting on women's health for a decade and
12:25everything I've seen points to the fact that women are not small men we can't hold ourselves to the
12:29same standards you know biohacking sports all of these topics they're really heavily biased to male
12:36data so this is a real issue too and the more I follow female runners and female athletes the more
12:43I
12:43see them talking about issues that were never really discussed before things like under fueling things
12:49like your menstrual cycle and how it's affected fatigue you know nutrient levels and how they all
12:54interact with the female body I mean is any of this sounding familiar yeah yeah 100% like if you
13:00look
13:00up fueling guides on the internet which I've done especially my earlier stages of my running career
13:06they're all obviously based on a man and a woman one takes fuel in differently and two we just yeah
13:14have different like bodies and different needs and that isn't taken into account I ran I did the speed
13:21project it's um it's ultra endurance relay race from LA to Vegas and I did it with a group of
13:28friends
13:29and they're like the strongest most powerful females that I know and we were like we're going to do this
13:34in the name of science and we tested everything um like we fueled everything we logged everything we
13:40filmed everything all so that this could be written up and hopefully influence some more research into
13:49females in the endurance space because although there are almost equal numbers now of I'm thinking
13:56about the marathon now um there were basically equal numbers of males and females this year I still do
14:03think especially the research behind it and the history it's still quite a male dominated sport
14:10I mean I love to see so many women getting into it now because even a couple of years ago
14:16I didn't really
14:18follow any running influences now my feed is awash with women who run which I think is quite cool
14:23yeah the largest group of applicants to next year's marathon ballot is women aged 21 to 29.
14:31love it get it girls exactly and I wonder how much of the advice that we get is coming from
14:38legit sources as well I mean I know that you've talked a little bit about some of the effects of
14:43running on your body and in some cases under fueling you've talked about your menstrual cycle and how
14:50that was affected by running and I read that your trainer said they wouldn't work with you they
14:54wouldn't train with you until you got your periods back on track and that's maybe something that not
14:58every coach would say because it's well understood that if you are an elite athlete your periods might
15:04disappear but that doesn't necessarily mean that's normal yeah a hundred percent I thought that losing my
15:11menstrual cycle was part of training hard and it's bizarre saying that out loud now but it almost
15:20became a badge of honor to be like yeah I've lost my menstrual cycle because it meant that I was
15:27pushing my
15:27body to the limit and I thought more was more whereas in reality the way you build fitness is well
15:34you only
15:35build fitness from the training that you recover from and I didn't realize how naive I was and I think
15:42part of that was this was before the running boom and now thankfully there's so many people sharing
15:47their experiences on social media so the people that I was like looking up to and reading their stories
15:53from a lot was written by men and the people I was running with were men so I just didn't
15:59like I
15:59couldn't share my lived experiences with them or they just didn't understand or they couldn't notice
16:05the difference in like my hormones or my energy levels but yeah a real eye-opener was when he he
16:11was
16:11a male coach and he said to me unless you have a yeah a functioning menstrual cycle um that's a
16:18huge risk for
16:19me to take on because you're so much more likely to get injured and have what we now know as
16:26reds which is
16:27relative energy deficiency in sports but even saying that it kind of goes both ways because
16:35before reds became a well-known thing it was called the female athlete triad and that really does imply
16:44that this is a thing that only women suffer with right and it's now great that more men are noticing
16:53that they also can suffer from energy deficiency because yeah it's great that so many people are
16:59getting into sport and doing more and I encourage everybody to but also yeah more is not more lighter
17:06does not equal faster and we only have one body at the end of the day and I I used
17:13to think when I
17:14didn't have a menstrual cycle at least that doesn't impact me on race day at least that doesn't affect my
17:19training because I don't have those PMS symptoms I'm so grateful that now I realize that that mild
17:24inconvenience of bleeding for one week a month that has caused me far less issues and harm than not
17:30bleeding at all and I'm so grateful I'm out the other side and I had so much support um yeah
17:37to get
17:38my body back working with me rather than against me yeah I mean I love to hear that they say
17:43that your
17:43menstrual cycle is a vital sign and I mean I remember for years and years going to doctors
17:50and saying that mine was irregular and they said oh it's not a big deal oh do you want to
17:54have kids
17:54oh come back when you want to have kids and now there's so much more emphasis on oh that means
17:59something's wrong let's check it out so I'm glad that things have moved along in that way we're not
18:04there yet like things aren't perfect we still live in a system where there's medical gaslighting medical
18:09misogyny but at least we are living in a time where we have a greater understanding of how
18:14important it is to have that vital sign and I think lots of people really understand that yeah yeah I
18:19actually you can think of your menstrual cycle as your superpower like it means that your body's
18:24healthy it's balanced it's working with you and I do it makes me like more motivated almost just before
18:31I know the PMS symptoms are going to start I might not feel like running but I'm like my body's
18:36really
18:36working with me right now like it's my hormones are going to be great for pushing myself so I'm
18:41going to use that and run with it and go smash out some really good sessions because I know
18:45next week I might have to adapt my training a little bit more if I have a few symptoms and
18:50so
18:51I think it helps you train hard when your body's ready and then listen to your body a bit more
18:56and
18:57recover a bit better when it's also telling you to do that and that is really powerful rather than
19:03you're not quite knowing where your body's at at any point because you don't it's not balanced
19:08because you don't have that menstrual cycle this is why I do always advocate for tracking even if
19:12you're writing in a notebook you don't have to use an app I do think it can be really handy
19:15yeah yeah
19:16yeah I track it I think um there's also a benefit to logging everything in that you can kind of
19:23look
19:23back and see you know what was affecting you last week what might be affecting you in the future and
19:28I
19:28know that you've got we've talked about health concerns but you know you've had other things
19:32layered on top of this incredible success that you've had um you've talked about having things
19:37like celiac and low iron um can't catch a break I know um yeah it kind of does feel a
19:44bit like that
19:45but also I'm grateful for like it's not stopping me achieving anything at this point so I got diagnosed
19:51with celiac disease last year which was a long time coming I think I had symptoms for that for a
19:57long time
19:57but just like the symptoms of reds like and having low iron that's just like you're tired
20:06you're fatigued and they are almost normal symptoms of running and so it's hard to notice and then the
20:13same with celiac disease people talk about runner's tummy all the time and they can't take on certain
20:19food or they feel bloated and so I just also put that down to just normal and obviously it wasn't
20:27I'm
20:27so pleased I got tested but I do think it's kind of all linked for me I think especially because
20:34I would have such a bad reaction to eating gluten I was then scared to eat my normal bagel before
20:41I ran
20:42which meant I was training fasted quite a lot which again I wasn't aware is really bad especially for
20:48females for our hormones and our cortisol levels which then might have led to under fueling
20:55which led to reds and I think low iron is pretty common especially in female runners one because we
21:02lose iron through our menstrual cycle you lose iron like every step you take when you're running as well
21:07so I think being on top of that making sure your body's working with you not against you as I
21:12keep
21:12saying it's just been it's turned my life around this year just being like okay we really are back to
21:18a
21:18level playing field and hopefully I'm going to run the best I ever have in my career now that I'm
21:24just
21:25so much more balanced and I just have so much more energy I can really notice it like I only
21:31had the
21:32energy to eat sleep and train and now I have so much better like relationships um with my family with
21:42my
21:42boyfriend I have energy for things outside of running like like my hobbies and also work is so
21:49much better and I think I'm a much like happier person it's great have you found that the the
21:54running scene has been very welcoming as well because I see it as an incredibly social space which
21:59you said in the beginning was great and something that really attracted you to it
22:03but what about now you're at this high high level is it still a very welcoming positive space
22:08yeah I actually think it is um every person I've met who is very good at this sport is um
22:16really
22:16encouraging happy to share their training what they've learned um but I do think I was scared of that
22:24at the start because I felt like I didn't belong because I had a bit of imposter syndrome I thought
22:29they
22:29might have these secret training ideas that no one's ever heard and they wouldn't want to share
22:34um and I think it's more inclusive than ever just like like starting out in the sport like being a
22:42beginner as well um there are so many more run clubs that cater for every single ability level
22:49and racing now is so popular that it isn't just about time which is so great there's like a quote
22:56which
22:57is everybody asks how far I ran but not how much fun I had and I do think there are
23:01more people doing it
23:02for fun now um and hopefully that's gonna like make it more and more inclusive as well like we don't
23:09want any like cut off times which are gonna stop that's the slower runners like completing it because
23:14everybody is running their best ability to their ability and that looks different to everyone and
23:20it's cool seeing so many people represented in the sport yeah I'm certainly not a marathoner but I do like
23:26a run so you know I'll do that to my own ability I don't think you need to run a
23:31marathon like
23:32everybody thinks that marathons are the epitome of the sport but not that's not for everybody and I
23:39think ultimately it's for our health our mental health our physical health and if that's just going
23:45out and running around the block like great you've ticked that box like go get a coffee and a croissant
23:50like that's more my speed yeah like that what's your what's your go-to before you're doing a nice
23:55big training session if you're going to fuel up um well I was thinking like races then in like hotels
24:02I've been known to cook pasta in the kettle oh my gosh like fresh pasta which is probably really rag
24:09um but yeah because yeah carbs are your best friends yeah fuel um if I'm not doing that it's just
24:17going to be porridge and then everyone's got brown sugar even if you're in a hotel brown sugar I put
24:22that on top um and yeah I've learned to love gels and I don't think it's a coincidence that my
24:27fastest
24:28marathon is the marathon which I consumed the most amount of carbs in um and I think we are hopefully
24:36I feel like running has been behind on how important carbs are for a while I've recently gone into triathlon
24:42a bit more and they are so far ahead with like carbs carbs carbs thankfully like the fueling
24:48strategies of people that are breaking records are being released now they're no longer secret and it
24:53is mind-blowing how many carbs they're able to take on and clearly how important that is for their
24:58performance so what about beyond the sport what is it that is kind of giving you energy and bringing
25:03you joy I think all I want to do in the sport is like kind of leave a legacy and
25:10I know that's really
25:11cliche but I do want to be the the girl next door that proves that I'm not this superhuman that
25:20has
25:20running in my genes that you have to be a particular you have to look a certain way you have
25:26to be a
25:26particular person to believe in yourself and have these crazy aspirations and ultimately like live
25:32them and I think it's hard to believe when people tell me that they are inspired by me but it
25:42is the
25:42most amazing feeling in the world and when I so I yeah I ran the marathon recently and when I
25:51get
25:51messages on social media of support it's so amazing but it's almost feels too good to be true and it's
25:57hard to picture the people behind the screen but when I run races especially in my home city through
26:04the streets of London and I hear complete strangers shouting for me supporting me believing in me
26:11like it really blows my mind often we don't believe in ourselves until we see some positivity reflected
26:19back right because our brains aren't very good at being kind to ourselves naturally so sometimes we
26:24need that mirror and I think also surrounding yourself with positivity really helps you know
26:29if you curate the vibe around you that helps it's why my Instagram algorithm is just rescue dogs and
26:35cute animals because I don't need any negativity oh but that is like race day in a nutshell like
26:43people in London sometimes don't make eye contact with each other like we just put our head down
26:48and ignore strangers somehow the whole city comes together to support each other there is nothing
26:53but love and pride and like emotion for complete strangers and it's like this culture of every
27:02person of every background coming together and I think that is that circle of positivity that we need
27:08a bit more of but what makes things like London and marathons and races so special do you have a
27:13favorite is London your favorite or do you have another favorite marathon that you've done in another city
27:17no it's got to be the home marathon yeah um I think they're all amazing but um the home marathon
27:24is
27:24really good my PEB was Copenhagen which was also incredible um and so I'm going to return to Copenhagen
27:31later this year and do an Ironman which is just like bizarre I don't know like I've just started the
27:36training for an Ironman it's so different from a marathon um but nice to be back as a beginner again
27:42and
27:42I'm going to use my own advice that if you put in the work you'll get the results because I
27:48really
27:49am a beginner swimmer I've never trained on the bike and so it's quite nice seeing this projection
27:55and seeing how good I can get week on week um yeah that's really motivating at the moment so I'm
28:02loving trying a new thing again yeah so Ironman is triathlon right yeah yeah amazing yeah gosh okay we'll
28:07watch this space I wonder if you've got any advice as well for budding athletes who need to know their
28:14normal need to kind of start where they're at um and who might be women who maybe dropped out of
28:20PE
28:20in their teens and are picking up sport again at this point yeah um and I think that is it
28:26like so
28:27many people love running around when they're children and then as we become more aware of our bodies and
28:35people around us and how we're like portrayed we step away from the sport and especially because
28:41running becomes like almost a punishment I remember being told to go do like laps of the field if you're
28:47naughty and it's not enjoyable so the thing I would say is it shouldn't be hard obviously there are times
28:54for it like if you're really training and really like pushing yourself of course it's going to be hard but
29:00it doesn't have to be and running is actually so enjoyable and I wouldn't compare yourself to
29:06anyone else obviously there's a lot of noise on social media at the moment because running is having
29:10an amazing boom but it's your journey I would block out everybody else out and even if you just start
29:19like you don't have to be fit to start I remember being like oh I'll start I'll join the gym
29:25when I get
29:25a fit running is for everybody just lace up your shoes and just try it and it will become a
29:32habit
29:33and the more you do the more you'll love it and I think you'll see the benefits mentally and physically
29:40and I hope you love it as much as I do where might someone start if they're looking to kind
29:46of get into
29:46mindset in order to help them not even with running but you know just with something they're trying to
29:51overcome in their life have you got any advice um I definitely was listening to a lot of podcasts
29:57and I made a really conscious effort to surround myself with positive people I got very happy with um
30:06blocking people on social media that like that they didn't bring me if it doesn't spark joy let it go
30:13exactly and I social media is a great place but also can be quite challenging place and I was determined
30:19for it only to be positive and be a good source of information for myself um so I think yeah
30:28podcasts are great I think also as you said make sure the information you're getting is from like
30:33a reputable source or people someone with lived experience but thankfully there are so many more
30:38people out there now sharing their own stories um and yeah I think I did all the classics I read
30:45like
30:45the secret the book um everyone loves the secret don't be embarrassed about that um and yeah journaling
30:52and you can get like even like pre-written out journals that you just fill in the bits for which
30:58takes
30:59a little bit of the thinking out of it but um anything to make you reflect and have a bit
31:04of perspective
31:04I think that is so important and so powerful if you have a dream that you want to achieve
31:10always ask my guests what their one tip for feeling well enough would be and that's not necessarily
31:16feeling perfect or feeling like your best self it's just your one tip for feeling like your your
31:22baseline you know like you're good enough yeah I think it's a really good point and running
31:27is a really good example of that your best looks different every day and you can only do
31:34the best you can with the cards you have and I think that's really important because
31:40I can have goals in running that are orientated by a time and if I don't hit that time it's
31:45so easy to
31:45then think you're not worthy or you put your time on this like arbitrary number that the clock says
31:51I think to feel well enough to feel proud of myself I need goals that are beyond time that
32:00I can feel proud of myself for just like not giving up or doing the best I can with the
32:07cards I had on
32:08the day that I was given and I think that is what really makes me feel like I left it
32:13all out there
32:14I've achieved all I can um yeah it makes me feel well enough great advice Anja Carling thank you so
32:20much for joining me for well enough thank you
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