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She Said Boom The Story of Fifth Column (2012) [Full Movie] [Full Series]Full EP - Full
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Short filmTranscript
00:00:28Transcription by CastingWords
00:00:45CastingWords
00:01:00CastingWords
00:01:01I can't imagine 5th Column existing without conflict. It's systemic.
00:01:08The core members of 5th Column were Caroline, Beverly and GB. I would say they were very different people. I
00:01:19think that probably was a source of a reasonable amount of conflict in the band.
00:01:23It would be like, you know, it would be like absolutely epic, you know, legendary fights. I mean there was
00:01:30no like holding back on these things.
00:01:48Everyone was constantly fighting. It was like filmmakers and artists and musicians. And so there was a lot of different
00:01:56opinions. And there was a lot of fighting.
00:01:58But that was really an essential part of the creative process, I think.
00:02:04We were pretty dynamic because of the nature of disagreeing. That's the thing is that whatever crisis we went through,
00:02:12whatever conflict or clashing, that's what the art was.
00:02:22Like this, it begins again.
00:02:26Like this, it begins again.
00:02:29Like this, it begins again.
00:02:33Like this, it begins again.
00:02:35Like this, it begins again.
00:02:36Like this, it begins again.
00:02:44I don't think that there were any physical confrontations, but sometimes there was screaming. And, but Gloria would kind of
00:02:52do a caricature of someone losing it or coming undone. And she would, she would pretend she was holding this
00:02:58knife. Or I think she would even take a knife and hold it. And she would run at you with
00:03:02her arms and her legs flailing.
00:03:21You'll find out if there's more
00:03:31So long, it's where you stay away.
00:03:34So long, it's where the pride tells the brim.
00:03:38You've ruined my way and the landlord is dead.
00:04:07At the time, there was a real sense of crisis and I think that people were, the people that
00:04:15I knew certainly were really critical of authority and institutions and the kind of contradictions
00:04:22that animated liberal democracies.
00:04:26And some of those contradictions had to do with sexuality and what you were allowed to
00:04:32do and what you weren't allowed to do and the fact that most of the restrictions on
00:04:38you were implicit rather than explicit.
00:04:40And those things really rankled young people and really pissed people off.
00:04:46It probably doesn't need to be said, but obviously the culture alienated us.
00:04:50We weren't part of the culture, not because, you know, we, not so much because we made a
00:04:56decision not to be, but because obviously there just wasn't a place for us in the culture as
00:05:02it existed.
00:05:05Toronto was a really different place when Fifth Column started.
00:05:09But Toronto was really tough.
00:05:10It was a tough city and it felt more violent.
00:05:15There was a lot of undercurrents of tensions between people.
00:05:20We had rocks thrown through our front window and eventually we ended up replacing the glass
00:05:28so that it wouldn't happen again.
00:05:31We learned to take a tip from the people who were from the mental health center and we began
00:05:38to dress up like that, wear two or three hats and a couple of coats and we would be able
00:05:44to walk around and do what we want, go to the store without any harassment by, you know,
00:05:50camouflaging ourselves essentially.
00:05:52We lived a lot of our life out of doors and on the streets too.
00:05:57Moving around the city, you know, there were, I mean, even just putting posters up for performances
00:06:02or spray painting things on walls.
00:06:05So a lot of our time was spent in places where we probably shouldn't have been.
00:06:38We we've happened.
00:06:42We welcomed into行了 some cinematic.
00:06:43Last me too, you know, you WOOD auch die.
00:06:45It's a tough, you know in myinka, you know.
00:06:48But it's a time called The Sugar Summer.
00:06:48In the Courts and Ours.
00:06:48From Kestamama's started to lost.
00:06:51But it doesn't make you lose weight.
00:06:54Like when I'm couldn't get my penis, I'm couldn't get the plastic tools.
00:06:56Haven't some donuts orni Can Ellie grow at home.
00:06:59Cause they don't want to botch on my side growth.
00:07:31Fifth Column was preceded by an effort that Janet and I had made to create a band called Second Unit.
00:07:40And when we met GB, that's when we transformed into Fifth Column.
00:07:45So then I was going to school too, and I had a friend named Jack Brown who was also going
00:07:50to school.
00:07:51And he said, oh, I know these two girls that are starting a band. Do you want to go and
00:07:56play with them?
00:07:57And he said, can you play drums? And I just said yes, even though I had never, ever, even sat
00:08:04at a drum kit before.
00:08:06So I went and I pretended I knew how to play drums.
00:08:10And I saw them at this party and they had three songs, and they played the three songs over and
00:08:14over again.
00:08:16And I couldn't get enough of them.
00:08:19They had this grumpy girl behind drums with long red hair, and that would have been a girl who named
00:08:24herself Gloria Berlin, who we now know as GB Jones.
00:08:30So after we played that one party, then we decided we wanted to have someone to sing in the band.
00:08:41And so we had two people come over, and one of them was Caroline, and we all decided, yeah, Caroline's
00:08:48amazing.
00:08:48Because first of all, she had an incredible style.
00:08:56And the other girls were absolutely stunning punk goddesses, and I was this short, goofy kid from Forest Hill Collegiate
00:09:05who wore big sweaters and had my bangs way over my eyes.
00:09:09Bringing Caroline into the band really unleashed the kind of performative aspect of the band, and it really gave an
00:09:18incredibly dynamic presence to us.
00:09:21So much so that we knew that that was the point at which we were ready to start playing publicly.
00:09:31What do you do in the same days I would start to cut when I was going by on your
00:09:40bed?
00:09:41And when the car goes wild, you're really fast.
00:09:45The people in the backseat, they began to shake, but I'm sure that vacation's gonna last till I get done.
00:10:01I think Fifth Column was an art punk band with a feminist edge.
00:10:07It's like Fifth Column was an art band, but they weren't an arty band, right?
00:10:11I always think of an arty band like Devo, and they get dressed up in these costumes, and, you know,
00:10:16they were arty, but they weren't an art band.
00:10:18Like Fifth Column to me was like a band that was like art.
00:10:21What made their music so unique and special is that it was played in a way that just sort of
00:10:30like broke new ground.
00:10:33You know, the structure of the songs, the way that Caroline would sing.
00:10:40G.B. Jones' amazing, incredibly sexy, husky voice.
00:10:47That voice. It's not so much that 5th Column were a band of musicians and singers, it was like G
00:10:55.B. Jones and 5th Column and Caroline, there were these sirens that were like calling you out to destroy your
00:11:02ship or something.
00:11:04Because they played music that was punk in idea, but not punk in terms of genre, because they played like
00:11:11psychedelic rock music, you know, like really 60s influenced.
00:11:16They were doing this thing that to me opened up the idea that like there can be all different kinds
00:11:21of women in bands and all different kinds of music played by all different kinds of women in bands.
00:11:26And it's not this one thing where everybody sounds like L7.
00:11:31And it seemed like G.B.'s drumming was kind of the forefront of that, that it was, you know, it
00:11:35was like a metaphor for all that opposition.
00:11:37It was like, well, I'm not going to keep time. I'm not going to sit back there and keep time
00:11:42for the rest of the band to kind of rock out, because we're not going to rock out in that
00:11:46way.
00:11:46We're going to kind of do something different, right?
00:11:48It wasn't straight ahead three chord rock and roll based in that convention for a number of reasons, one of
00:11:56which was that we probably couldn't have played that music.
00:12:00We were learning how to play as we were becoming a band.
00:12:04They really thought songs differently and they thought rhythm differently and stuff like this, right?
00:12:09And they were able to kind of translate this different way of thinking about a song and how it was
00:12:14structured into an actual song.
00:12:17Well, I mean, we didn't know any other way of doing it, so, and we were making it up.
00:12:21So what it meant was that a lot of the times the music sounded kind of weird.
00:12:27And actually, G.B., I think, she made a tape of some Fifth Column stuff, a compilation tape for someone,
00:12:34and she called it The Sound of Music Falling Apart.
00:12:36And I thought that was just the perfect way to describe the way to sound it.
00:12:47If this hides the way to pour it down...
00:12:52It's just the only choice I can't tell you...
00:12:53it is.
00:12:53So just be careful with Alice in your life.
00:13:13Welcome to Indy Street, I'm Erica M. When we decided on doing a story on the Toronto
00:13:17Independent Band Fifth Column, I was a bit concerned because most people that I mentioned
00:13:21the name to went, ooh, that feminist band, they hate men. And I couldn't disagree, their
00:13:27album was called The Sir With Hay.
00:13:31The fact that they just got on stage and they were who they were was enough. They didn't
00:13:35have to sing like, gay power, feminist power, they didn't have to do that, it was like their
00:13:42presence was totally enough and the fact that they took it for granted that they were allowed
00:13:46to be there, supposed to be there, and that they were making the music they wanted to
00:13:50make, that was it.
00:13:53And I think just having a girl band itself was at that time still a fairly political
00:14:01act.
00:14:01It just had to be some women doing something, like women getting together and saying we're
00:14:07going to be in a band suddenly was a feminist statement when, you know, there wasn't a label
00:14:13for boys getting together and being in a band. So it's a really strange phenomenon.
00:14:17But the thing you have to really remember about Fifth Column is they were feminist. I mean,
00:14:23they didn't even like relate to the orthodox feminist movement, but they were essentially
00:14:32a kind of a feminist band. So there was a lot of animosity towards them. There was a lot
00:14:38of hostility towards them.
00:14:40There's a sort of writing off of something or categorizing of something. Like you say,
00:14:46oh, they're feminist. And that sort of sticks them into a certain category and we don't
00:14:49really have to pay attention to a lot of other things, you know, and maybe we don't even
00:14:53have to pay attention to the music.
00:14:54But, you know, you can't, it's very difficult to talk about feminism because it's not
00:14:58one thing. So it's a lot, a lot of different things. But I think we definitely all shared
00:15:05a feeling of being outside of culture. So there wasn't a lot happening that we felt
00:15:10spoke to us or related to us. So we did a lot of critiquing.
00:15:14And that's what we were really looking for as young feminists was like other feminists
00:15:19to connect with who weren't like single issue feminists who weren't just like, we want to
00:15:24climb the corporate ladder and become just as fucked up and assholes as like all the guys.
00:15:30We want the right to like be racist too, or we want the right to enforce classism on other
00:15:35people or like whatever. And I just felt like the girls in Toronto just had this view that
00:15:44was larger.
00:15:45Our model was kind of like divine in pink flamingos when the reporter says, are you a lesbian?
00:15:52And she says, yes, I've done everything. And it's like, any word you can use to describe
00:15:59me that you think is bad is good to me. Because the worst you can, the worst things you can
00:16:05call me, the better.
00:16:07Are you feminists?
00:16:08I'm a bull dykes from Transylvania.
00:16:11Gone fishing for today, gone fishing for today, gone fishing for today.
00:16:36People valued authenticity and the whole idea of authenticity and the real. And of course,
00:16:42being in this outsider position in culture, we were very aware that everything that was
00:16:48supposedly real around us was actually a total construction. And just of course, all the media,
00:16:54you know, that the culture that you're totally alienated from is just like a constructed culture
00:17:00and totally unreal. It doesn't have any relationship to your life. And as a matter of fact, it totally
00:17:08alienates you from life. It's not, um, so part of our rejection of that was to like embrace
00:17:16the artificial. So like we, um, you know, we, we put together this whole theory about how
00:17:24like, um, bands from the sixties, like the bubblegum groups that everyone just hated. We said we
00:17:32loved them because, um, almost all of those groups, their message was addressed to like teenage girls. So
00:17:41it was the only music you could really listen to that didn't have all these like really misogynist,
00:17:46um, this really misogynist content in it. We thought the faker they were, the better they are.
00:17:52And so, um, it was interesting because that led us to like watch the movies of, um, Dave Markey,
00:17:59uh, loved all superstars. Have you seen that movie?
00:18:04Superstar, loved all superstars. Superstar, loved all superstars.
00:18:16I don't know why they left us. Oh God, where did they go?
00:18:22But they'll be back. No, they can't be just the way.
00:18:29It all kind of, um, came back to this idea where you would construct your identity and
00:18:35that, um, something that was really artificial would actually be more meaningful than something
00:18:41that had the pretense of authenticity because, um, you actually chose your identity. You actually
00:18:48created it.
00:18:59I don't know why they left us now. The next day everything's changed. I stayed on
00:19:16there's no time. No, nothing's the same. That's the story. The story of a girl. And the
00:19:33shout. And the shout what was. Well, they looked very different. Um, they had amazing hair was
00:19:41one thing. They all had beautiful hair and they had very classic looks. Like they were
00:19:45obviously very, there was meaning to how they were look, how they were dressing. It wasn't
00:19:50random at all. I think we scared people. And I, and, and it's strange because, you know,
00:19:56you're working on yourself. You've got your kabuki makeup. You've got, you know, a lot of
00:19:59makeup. Your hair's teased up high. And you look at yourself and you think, I'm so beautiful. And you go
00:20:05out and you look like a car accident to most people because it's not natural.
00:20:10If we walked by, a bunch of the guys from the pool hall would sort of rush onto the sidewalk
00:20:16and start singing Rock Lobster at us, the B-52 song. It was quite a novel way of harassing someone.
00:20:25I think at the time we were really inspired by the big hair movie stars like Sharon Tate. I think
00:20:31she also wore some pretty darn good eye makeup too. Who else? Um, how about the Flintstones? Marg Rock? And
00:20:38Marg Rock was definitely an influence.
00:20:40And all the Patties. Patties? Patties? Patty Duke. Patty Smooth. Oh, right. A peppermint patty. Patty.
00:20:49You know, we're wanting to have our own sense of style or enjoy the experience of beauty. But, you know,
00:20:56for Fifth Column, it's a different kind of beauty. And it doesn't just have to be, you know, even though
00:21:02there's nothing wrong with that, that's one kind too. But when it's just always, always the same every time, it's,
00:21:08it's like a type of, of toy. And it doesn't just have to be, you know, even though there's nothing
00:21:10wrong with that.
00:21:14And it doesn't have to be, you know, even though there's nothing wrong with that. And it doesn't have to
00:21:16be, you know, even though there's nothing wrong with that.
00:21:18And so, right from the beginning, there was this kind of interaction with, um, the film community because we were
00:21:24really interested in people like Lydia Lunch because she was making a lot of amazing movies with, uh, Vivian Dick
00:21:30and, um, Scott and Beth B.
00:21:34Yeah, so it was all part of creating artwork. Like you became your own artwork in a lot of ways,
00:21:45which has similarities to people like Jack Smith as well, who spent his whole life doing that.
00:21:50And of course, we were really influenced by that because we saw Jack Smith perform at The Funnel.
00:22:01So that was kind of like all converging at once. It was never really separate. And so then when we
00:22:07started working with John Porter, it was like this natural kind of thing to just incorporate film into what we
00:22:14were doing.
00:22:41Film is a big part of what we were doing.
00:22:44All of us, uh, went to school and studied film theory. You know, we were just really, you know, film
00:22:49obsessed. And, uh, often, you know, when we would write songs, they were very filmic.
00:22:56They would start in a soundtrack sort of vein. And, um, the stories, um, in the lyrics were almost like
00:23:05an epic film to us.
00:23:08G.B. was making movies. And so, you know, a lot of those she filmed where we lived and with
00:23:13our friends. So, you know, it was not a weird day to go down the street to try to have
00:23:20a fight or play yo-yo so she could film us.
00:23:29G.B.
00:23:30Get out of the road, boy!
00:23:31Yeah!
00:23:34Yeah!
00:23:35That's right!
00:23:39Yeah!
00:23:41Yeah!
00:23:47G.B. Jones' films
00:23:50or Bruce's films, especially like the early, early films from the 80s and whatnot, they're
00:23:56like sort of stunned because everything now is about slick professionalism or this so-called
00:24:03fake reality. But the kind of movies that they were doing, the kind of films that I
00:24:08was doing, it was the real reality films.
00:24:50And it walks real strong. Ghost of a buffalo, Hester, is it you? Friend of a billion, is it a
00:25:04prager, is it honor?
00:25:07Fifth column decided to tour the States and it was the Eastern Seaboard. We hit about 13
00:25:12towns, 13 cities. Caroline, of course, was just organizing everything and speaking to
00:25:19club promoters and setting up the gigs.
00:25:23I had created a character named Magda Savage, who was our phony manager. And we found that
00:25:31when we phoned people and said, look, we're touring and we'd like to play, they're like,
00:25:37who are you? And I'd say, I'm in the band. And it didn't matter to them. But if I had
00:25:41a manager
00:25:42who phoned them up and talked about how great the band was, that made a difference to them.
00:25:48So I created a character named Magda Savage.
00:25:51But it was also really convenient because, you know, anybody who had the time could be
00:25:54Magda Savage. It didn't all have to be Caroline. And also, it was a negotiating tool for us
00:26:02because, you know, if we, if something was going on that we weren't comfortable with,
00:26:05we were like, sorry, you have to talk to Magda Savage.
00:26:08And she sounded like this. Hi, how are you? I've heard of your club there in Ann Arbor.
00:26:15It's a fantastic club. The girls have always wanted to play here.
00:26:19Magda Savage
00:26:22Magda Savage
00:26:22Yeah, my, my, my, the Ryan
00:26:42You're right, everybody's, you know, guys
00:26:45Everybody's burning plans
00:26:47There's a talk show coming to man
00:26:50My brother's too mad
00:26:51It's over again
00:26:53She's a little too bad
00:26:54Talking about
00:26:57I'm gonna go by
00:27:00I'm your scared bird
00:27:02It's crazy if you know it
00:27:03I'm your dollars if you want
00:27:04It's a little bit
00:27:06She can do everything at once
00:27:09And write postcards
00:27:10So much on the ground
00:27:12I'll never keep talking
00:27:17You know it's funny
00:27:19People came and went in 5th Column
00:27:22To me it was always a big mystery
00:27:25About the previous members
00:27:27And I suppose in a way
00:27:29I was a bit in awe
00:27:32It's hard to talk about the power struggles
00:27:34Because they were always changing and shifting
00:27:38So at a certain point
00:27:41My friendship with GB was very, very tight
00:27:47Really solid
00:27:48And then a year later
00:27:50We were kind of glaring at each other
00:27:53From across the room
00:27:54Well I think people sometimes found
00:27:57Caroline and GB hard to work with
00:27:59Just because they were so certain
00:28:01About their aesthetic
00:28:02I mean they really had a clear vision
00:28:05Of what they wanted
00:28:06And it was often hard to articulate
00:28:09Or hard for other people to understand
00:28:11Or maybe
00:28:13Or relate to
00:28:14So
00:28:17You know sometimes that generated conflict
00:28:20For people
00:28:22I don't want to make it sound like
00:28:23People were stupid and didn't understand
00:28:25But I'm just thinking you know
00:28:26Does anybody talk about Michelle
00:28:29And Luke
00:28:31And Donna
00:28:32And Tori
00:28:33And all the other people
00:28:34That were in the band
00:28:36Members came and went
00:28:38But I think that the core of the band
00:28:40Always remained
00:28:41And I guess the only real constant
00:28:43Was that Caroline and I
00:28:44Were both in the band
00:28:45Always
00:28:46And
00:28:48So Caroline was writing most of the lyrics
00:28:51Because she's a brilliant lyricist
00:28:53And I would write
00:28:55A couple of songs
00:28:57And then we would write
00:28:58A few songs together
00:28:59At different points
00:29:01Other people would write stuff as well
00:29:04Beverly contributed lyrics to some songs
00:29:06And of course
00:29:07Everyone participated in the songwriting
00:29:09Kind of on an equal level
00:29:11In my mind
00:29:12The band became really strong
00:29:14And defined when Beverly Breckenridge joined
00:29:17Originally
00:29:17I mean I said I didn't play
00:29:19But I played clarinet in high school
00:29:21And she you know asked me
00:29:22Do you play anything?
00:29:23Do you play any instruments?
00:29:24And I said well I play clarinet
00:29:25And she was like awesome
00:29:27No she didn't say awesome
00:29:28She said that's great
00:29:29You should well you know
00:29:31You should play with us sometime
00:29:33I was like yeah
00:29:34So I actually did go
00:29:35And bring out my old clarinet
00:29:37And start playing it
00:29:37But the clarinet thing never happened
00:29:39I was precocious
00:29:42You know GB was uncompromising
00:29:44We were both strangely shy
00:29:46And had no social graces
00:29:48And then this bass player comes in
00:29:50Who can
00:29:51People aren't threatened by her
00:29:53So all of a sudden I think we were more approachable
00:29:55Because of her involvement
00:29:58And secondly I was like
00:29:59And the other thing is
00:30:00I'm actually kind of shy
00:30:01Like being on stage
00:30:02Wasn't something that I was interested in doing
00:30:03Again she reassured me
00:30:05That's no problem
00:30:05You just play with your back to the audience
00:30:07So I did that for many years actually
00:30:09It took a long time
00:30:11Before I planned facing the audience
00:30:20I mean I remember going to Just Desserts
00:30:22Like the original Just Desserts restaurant
00:30:23There was every cake you could ever imagine in there
00:30:26And if you look through the windows of Just Desserts
00:30:30You would see the most interesting looking waitstaff
00:30:33I worked there
00:30:34GB worked there
00:30:36And we met a wild crazy young guy
00:30:41Who had hair like John Sucks
00:30:43You know from the 80s
00:30:46From New York's Danceteria days
00:30:47And his name was Brian Bruce
00:30:50And him and GB became very close
00:30:53And she renamed him Bruce LaBruce
00:30:55Because we were all working together
00:30:57It was so boring there
00:30:58And you just start talking to people
00:31:02And Bruce was interested in film
00:31:04He was a film student
00:31:06He was writing film theory
00:31:07So naturally that was interesting
00:31:11Next thing you knew Gloria was like
00:31:13Well we've got a go-go dancer
00:31:15And he's coming down to the shows
00:31:17And he's going to dance
00:31:22And to be honest I remember thinking
00:31:24Why do we want that?
00:31:27So there we are opening up
00:31:29For the Jesus and Mary chain
00:31:30And Bruce is doing this great Gerard Malanga
00:31:34Go-go dance in the middle of the Fairview Mall story
00:31:37I think the impetus behind using a boy go-go dancer
00:31:42For a song like the Fairview Mall
00:31:44Is kind of like that is a statement
00:31:47You know a bunch of girls on stage
00:31:48Are doing the work with the instruments
00:31:50And the boy's doing the dancing
00:31:53So yeah so he started hanging around with us
00:31:56And then I came up with this idea
00:31:57That he would play like the archetypical bag
00:32:01On a song called the Fairview Mall story
00:32:04Which was about a police bust
00:32:08In St. Catharines of the Fairview Mall washroom
00:32:11Where they had put surveillance cameras in
00:32:13To arrest people
00:32:14And the aftermath of that
00:32:16Was that all the people that were arrested
00:32:18Had lost their jobs
00:32:19And I believe one man committed suicide
00:32:21Because his life was ruined
00:32:25Sitting in the sand
00:32:26The bris will be as lonely
00:32:28Watch a tomboy, tomboy, tomboy
00:32:30Life does wonder if there's a plan
00:32:33Looking so lovingly
00:32:35We were banned
00:32:36And holding his heart in her hand
00:32:41Sitting in the wheelchair
00:32:43Raving hair
00:32:44Now it's not great
00:32:44Raving hair
00:32:45Now it's dark gray
00:32:46Wear my car keys
00:32:48I'm going to the mall
00:32:49Honey
00:32:52He took the family car to Fairview Mall
00:32:55Get high
00:32:55He went to Kresge's
00:32:57And then he went down the hall
00:32:59Married young friends
00:33:00Into the washroom
00:33:02He hid in a stall
00:33:03What's a boy to do?
00:33:06Met a young man and took a fall
00:33:10Then staring at each other
00:33:12I believe that they answered the call
00:33:20I think it was very different
00:33:22There were no other bands
00:33:23That would have sang about that sort of stuff at all
00:33:27There were no queer male bands at all
00:33:30There was just Fifth Column
00:33:31I mean there were different members
00:33:32Of Fifth Column over the years
00:33:34And certainly a number of them
00:33:35Were not gay at all
00:33:38Gay, queer, anything
00:33:39Were quite straight
00:33:40But they became known
00:33:42At least for a period of birth
00:33:44I think they became pretty much known
00:33:46Almost as a gay band
00:33:47There were assumptions about Fifth Column
00:33:49Being queer
00:33:50Or you know
00:33:51Because we were mostly women
00:33:53Or a women-led band
00:33:53That we were lesbians
00:33:54And how we sometimes used that
00:33:58How we didn't want to clear
00:33:59You know we didn't feel like
00:34:01We needed to clear any of that up
00:34:02We weren't really concerned
00:34:04With what people thought of us
00:34:07Well I was pretty open
00:34:09About being in love with GB at the time
00:34:11I was 19
00:34:13And I told my parents
00:34:14I wanted to marry her
00:34:16That flipped them out
00:34:20I did
00:34:23But we got over that
00:34:26I told her
00:34:27I said we could go to Hawaii
00:34:28And get married
00:34:29Because you weren't allowed
00:34:31To get married in Canada yet
00:34:33And she said
00:34:34Are you nuts
00:34:35And that was the end of that
00:34:38But what would you
00:34:39What if I had a baby
00:34:42I'd steal it from you
00:34:43What would you do to it
00:34:45I'd turn it queer
00:34:47One of the reasons
00:34:48We turned to punk
00:34:49In the first place
00:34:49Was because we were disillusioned
00:34:51With the direction
00:34:52Of the gay movement
00:34:53That it had become
00:34:54Assimilationist and bourgeois
00:34:55Even back in the mid-80s
00:34:58A lot of gay men hated women
00:35:01And it was very thinly veiled
00:35:03At the time
00:35:04Because there was a real separation
00:35:05Between men and women
00:35:07In those days
00:35:07And they didn't really collaborate
00:35:09And they didn't really have
00:35:10Common interests
00:35:10And they didn't hang out together
00:35:12Oh yeah man
00:35:14I want to fuck your tight ass
00:35:16That reminds me
00:35:17Did you boys buy toilet paper?
00:35:19Boys don't use as much toilet paper
00:35:21As girls do
00:35:22So I shouldn't have to buy any
00:35:24What?
00:35:24What about the shit
00:35:25On the end of your dick
00:35:26While you're packing that fudge
00:35:27Brownie hounds
00:35:28Woohoo!
00:35:45These girls that had
00:35:46A hardcore punk band
00:35:48Called ASF
00:35:49And they lived in Boulder, Colorado
00:35:52And I set up a show for them
00:35:54At this punk club
00:35:55Called
00:35:55Le Cocktail
00:35:58We decided to show
00:35:59Some of the movies
00:36:00We were making
00:36:01Because Bruce was
00:36:01Already starting to make movies
00:36:03By that point
00:36:04And I was making movies
00:36:05And so then there was
00:36:07Just this huge fight
00:36:08Like some of the punk kids
00:36:10Got really upset
00:36:11At the queer content
00:36:13In the movies
00:36:14And started punching Bruce
00:36:16And Carolyn was there
00:36:17And she was running up
00:36:18To defend him
00:36:21So we were like the sissies
00:36:23And the dykes
00:36:24Who were
00:36:28Who wanted to be part
00:36:29Of the punk movement
00:36:30But we were like
00:36:31Really pissed off
00:36:31By the homophobia
00:36:32And misogyny
00:36:34In the punk movement
00:36:35So that's what we started
00:36:36To make our fanzines about
00:36:38Our experimental short
00:36:39Super 8 films about
00:36:41And that was sort of our dilemma
00:36:47We were caught between these two subcultures
00:36:52Punk and gay
00:36:53And we were kind of rejected by both of them
00:36:56I mean the punk world was really straight
00:36:59And the gay world was really lame
00:37:04And there wasn't really a place
00:37:06For kids who sort of
00:37:08You know had more of a punk aesthetic
00:37:09If I could change your mind
00:37:12And you were good just fine
00:37:15We could still then
00:37:19Run away to San Jose
00:37:21They say every day
00:37:25We're strange
00:37:27That's okay
00:37:28Who cares
00:37:30I'm not going home today
00:37:40Queercore started as I like to say
00:37:42In my apartment on Queen Street
00:37:43At Queen of Parliament
00:37:45In my living room
00:37:46Where everyone would come and hang out
00:37:48So I made this little cassette tape up
00:37:50And I started mailing it out to my friends
00:37:52And I just called it
00:37:54The homocore tape
00:37:55I just made up this word
00:37:57I thought it was funny
00:37:58Because hardcore homocore
00:37:59So I made that word up
00:38:01And then when we did the zine
00:38:02I thought oh okay
00:38:03I'll use that word
00:38:04Because it's so funny
00:38:06So you know punk has its gay origins
00:38:11And we were trying to put the gay back in punk
00:38:14I think that
00:38:15I think the beginning of it
00:38:16Was sort of taking straight punk images
00:38:19And kind of giving them a homoerotic feel
00:38:23You know so there'd be pictures of like
00:38:25Totally straight punk shows
00:38:27But guys with their shirts off
00:38:28Looking really hot
00:38:29And there was sort of a fetishization
00:38:30I think of that
00:38:33That sort of aesthetic
00:38:35We would get these straight boys in bands
00:38:37That were either staying at our house
00:38:39Or would come over to visit
00:38:41And we'd try to get them drunk
00:38:42And then make them take their clothes off
00:38:44So we could take naked pictures of them
00:38:46To publish in our homo punk fanzine
00:38:49And they made it seem like in Canada
00:38:52In Toronto
00:38:53There was this real big queer skinhead
00:38:56With these tough looking sexy
00:38:58Hot muscly punk rock boys
00:39:01These hot gorgeous punk rock boys
00:39:03Who all were gay and into punk
00:39:05When there really wasn't a scene as such
00:39:08It was just in the figments of GB Jones's imagination
00:39:12And Bruce's imagination
00:39:14So suddenly there were kids who were dressing like that
00:39:17And there were kids who liked punk music
00:39:19And then all of a sudden there were people
00:39:20Who were in bands
00:39:21Who were making that kind of music
00:39:22So it really was
00:39:23It was a North American phenomenon
00:39:26You know a lot of guys kind of thought
00:39:29Oh this is all about us
00:39:30And they just assumed that it was all just going to be like
00:39:34The same as gay except punk
00:39:37You know that's what a lot of people think queer core is
00:39:40They just think it's gay punk
00:39:41Which it totally isn't
00:39:42So I wanted to change it to queer core
00:39:45Because I wanted to make sure that
00:39:46It was inclusive of girls
00:39:48And beyond
00:39:51Gender beyond label
00:40:12When we got Double Bill
00:40:17And it was like kind of about William Burroughs
00:40:21And William Conrad
00:40:23The star of Canon
00:40:25The TV star Bill Cannon
00:40:27Who is the protector of women
00:40:29And then icky Burroughs
00:40:33Who tries to kill women
00:40:35Who's completely misogynist
00:40:38It's brilliant
00:40:39I worked on a scene called Hyde
00:40:42We would do this beautiful Xerox art
00:40:44And you'd spend a lot of time working with Zatchco knives
00:40:47And you know in those days you didn't have Photoshop or anything
00:40:50You just had a knife and Xerox and tape
00:40:54You know we were all working on fanzines
00:40:59And so we'd be working like all night on these fanzines
00:41:01And putting them out and sending them to people that we knew
00:41:04And that was your social life in a way
00:41:07Like you didn't have a bar to go to
00:41:09So you got stuff done
00:41:10Which is really good
00:41:11You know like you weren't just out dancing and drinking
00:41:14Like all the other people were
00:41:15You were actually like staying up all night
00:41:17Creating a fanzine
00:41:18And sending it out to people
00:41:19Or recording some song on a four track
00:41:23And that was the social life
00:41:25Because there wasn't somewhere to go
00:41:26Well you know I'm going to give credit to JD's
00:41:30Because besides the calm
00:41:32The JD's fanzine
00:41:34Which was more about queer punk
00:41:36And was really the you know like the grandmother and the granddaddy of all that
00:41:42And I think that's what invited Fifth Column to all these endeavors
00:41:46Because of our association with JD's
00:41:48To me I think that's when it blew up
00:41:50Zines played a huge role in Fifth Column's popularity
00:41:54Because all of a sudden we were able to reach a lot more people
00:41:57And find other people who were collaborators who we wouldn't have been able to find
00:42:01You know we found like-minded people in different cities all over the continent
00:42:05So it changed things dramatically
00:42:10People in the mainstream have no idea how easy it is
00:42:15To kind of reach their children
00:42:18Because if you put out a scene
00:42:20You put out records
00:42:21They're all very appealing to young people
00:42:23And you can get your message across
00:42:24And it comes right into their bedroom and it's private
00:42:28And then you can reach them that way
00:42:31Without having to go through mainstream channels
00:42:51You know we had this crickety house that you would you know walk through the stairs
00:42:55And your foot would go through the stairs and raccoons would fall down
00:42:58And the windows were like covered with glitter
00:43:01And the floors were crooked so we lived in Alice in Wonderland
00:43:05It literally was one of the diviest places I'd ever seen
00:43:10There were so many cockroaches
00:43:12I've never seen that many cockroaches before or since
00:43:16The building inspector ended up coming over to our house
00:43:20And he was walking up the stairs to go up to the second floor
00:43:25And he literally fell right through the staircase
00:43:27Like down one whole flight of stairs
00:43:31Not not down the stairs but through the hole in the stairs down into the next floor
00:43:38That's how bad the building was
00:43:41They found about 113 violations in the house
00:43:45There was a clock on the wall that was sort of half fallen out of the wall
00:43:51And the cockroaches used to swarm like there was literally thousands of cockroaches in this house
00:43:57It was the most disgusting thing
00:43:59Like you could imagine
00:44:01But you get used to it you know
00:44:03It was um hard but it was good
00:44:09Because um
00:44:16Why was it good?
00:44:17Well it wasn't good really
00:44:18It was really hard
00:44:19But what can you do about it?
00:44:23There's nothing you can do about it
00:44:30Well what do you know
00:44:32No skin off my ass
00:44:38The whole Warhol kind of influence was really interesting
00:44:41Because we kind of mimicked the superstar thing that Warhol did
00:44:47So each of us would either accuse or kind of identify the other as relating to one of the superstars
00:44:56So I mean Gloria was very Nico
00:44:59I mean in her whole approach in her voice in her kind of like the way that she would just
00:45:03go silent
00:45:05This kind of like sphinx without a riddle
00:45:07This kind of like um enigma that you just present as a kind of empty signifier that people can project
00:45:15onto
00:45:26Well uh the the fanzine war the the rifts kind of basically boiled down to um accusations of me being
00:45:36a sellout
00:45:37And I think that the attention and success that Bruce began to have with with no skin off my ass
00:45:42sort of started a ball rolling where
00:45:45You know perhaps there was some resentment that um other people weren't getting the credit they deserved
00:45:50Because they these things were very collaborative efforts
00:45:53I mean not to take anything away from him
00:45:54It was his movie and he made it and he edited it and all of those things
00:45:58But but because what we were all working on was so collaborative
00:46:02I think when one person began to be singled out as you know someone who had done something in particular
00:46:08And everyone else was sort of you know in the shadow
00:46:11I think there was a certain amount of resentment or just difficulty sort of negotiating that
00:46:15It was the fanzine wars basically and it got very acrimonious and um
00:46:22There was a lot of uh
00:46:23There was a lot of name calling and kind of uh defamation of character
00:46:29There's been a lot written about the whole zine wars and you know the falling out between
00:46:35I'm probably one of the few people that has been able to stay good friends with um
00:46:40All the people involved over the years one of the few people you know
00:46:45But you know when you deal with people who have explosive personalities and are creative
00:46:49Of course there's going to be conflicts
00:46:51It's like it's not going to be all like little birdies singing along
00:46:57No it's not going to be like that at all
00:46:59You know there's going to be like some conflicts and things like that
00:47:02And you know well honey you know what toronto is like it's like toronto is like a real nitpicky town
00:47:09So it's like you know and and and you know how you canadians are
00:47:17Whoa got your tape decks on there canada well welcome to the wacky world of fifth column and this here
00:47:24is our holiday song
00:47:38This is
00:47:41And
00:47:46I
00:47:46I
00:47:47I
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00:48:10I
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00:48:12I
00:48:13I
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00:48:14I
00:48:14I
00:48:15I
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00:48:22I
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00:48:43I
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00:48:53I
00:48:57I
00:48:58I
00:49:01I
00:49:03our own as older sisters of kids who are odd.
00:49:59Really, the gay punk community was what Riot
00:50:02Girl sprung out of. I mean, it would not have existed without it. And we felt very much
00:50:09a part of that scene and we felt like it wasn't called Riot Girl, really. It was like people
00:50:16in their apartments doing things. It became Riot Girl later, like much later, like after
00:50:20it had already happened. Like we weren't calling it that. We felt like we were part of the whole
00:50:25core scene.
00:50:27Well, there wouldn't have been the Riot Girl movement without G.B. Jones, 5th Column.
00:50:33I feel like that's sort of the amazing relationship that happened between Bikini Kill and 5th Column
00:50:41and G.B. specifically was this sort of being inspired and being inspired enough to participate.
00:50:50We didn't see 5th Column until pretty late. I think it was like 94, 95, 96, like somewhere
00:50:54in there. And it was like this whole legendary group of girls, women. We'd seen the movies,
00:51:04read the zines, artwork, like the whole thing, totally obsessed. And then they came to town
00:51:09and they were absolutely lovely. Saw them play. And I just remember thinking, why are we the
00:51:19ones who get all the attention? They're such a better band than we are.
00:51:22So even though 5th Column, I think, was an influence for these girls, they never sort
00:51:30of unfortunately, I think, got like fit into the movement in a certain kind of way. So
00:51:36I think that some of the groups that came after them and were influenced by them actually got
00:51:40a lot more media attention than they did.
00:51:42Like, in terms of the mainstream, like our fame or attention level eclipsed what they were
00:51:49doing. And I think largely it was because we were straight or perceived as straight, which
00:51:55was always really frustrating when the people who were the real kind of originators of something
00:52:00get, um, erased.
00:52:10Peed after me. Are we gonna look for mommy?
00:52:13Are we gonna look for mommy? Don't talk to me about your mommy. All women are bitches. Repeat. All women
00:52:21are bitches.
00:52:22I love the movie, Kathy's Curse. And there's an evil little girl in that. And she says one of her
00:52:26famous lines is, um, all women are bitches.
00:52:29She used to go around saying, all women are bitches, all the time in any situation that demanded it. And
00:52:34so, um, I was like, wow, I can't believe she's saying that. It kind of shocked me at first. I
00:52:40was like, and she had gotten it from this movie called Kathy's Curse, where this young, it was a Canadian
00:52:47movie too, a fabulous movie, where this young girl is
00:52:52possessed by a dead spirit that she finds in the attic. And she totally turns against all women. And she,
00:52:58uh, and she just calls all women are bitches. And she goes around saying all women are bitches.
00:53:06What's going on here? Kathy, answer me.
00:53:11So I went in to our practice space and I said, okay, now we're writing a song called All Women
00:53:16Are Bitches. And everyone's mouth just kind of fell open. Like, what? Are you crazy?
00:53:39We were supposed to go and play this festival that they had called Kumbaya that was supposed to be, um,
00:53:46like AIDS charities and everything.
00:53:49It made us a little nervous, uh, to do mainstream. But, you know, the thing is, um, you kind of
00:53:56can't think about it. It's kind of like getting a booster shot.
00:53:59This is Fifth Column.
00:54:09We saw the outcome. You know, well, if we do this, we'll get more shows or we'll, we'll get more
00:54:14money to pay our record debt.
00:54:17But when we went on the show, they said, okay, you can't play that song. So of course, then we
00:54:22had to play the song because, you know, they told us not to.
00:54:25So we absolutely had to play it because it was being broadcast live. So they couldn't actually edit us out.
00:54:31And we knew that. And they knew that. So they said, no, you can't play that song and don't play
00:54:35it.
00:54:36And so then we did play it. And they were furious. And they said, okay, you're never going to be
00:54:40on, um, much music again. And they never did play any of our videos after that.
00:54:46But then Melody Maker made it the single of the week. So then it got all this publicity and everything.
00:54:53And, um, and then we were, um, rock stars for a week.
00:55:00Because I remember there was a point in with fifth column where they were just being taunted in the music
00:55:06press and just saying, oh, they're so amazing. They're so great.
00:55:09Like when Melody Maker and New Music Express was writing about them every week at some point, you know, then
00:55:15it started getting media attention to what was going on.
00:55:19And they would write up one of the bands or they would, you know, review one of the fanzines. And
00:55:24I think that actually started to cause a certain amount of difficulty in the scene.
00:55:29Every time we had an encounter with the media was just like a matter of what would they try and
00:55:34co-op this time? What would they change? What would they misquote? What would they take liberties with?
00:55:40So that, you know, when you see yourself in the media, it would just be something totally different than what
00:55:47you started out to do.
00:56:16We'll see you next time.
00:56:22Dona, dona, dona. I'm scared of her, it's busy than mine. Dona's a girl who's full of warmth. She did
00:56:31everything at once.
00:56:33And that cooked pie, so much fun, better fall below. Dona, dona, dona. She is...
00:56:44That's a lot of the mainstream. They try to, like, dangle a little carrot to get people interested.
00:56:48So I completely agree with why G.B. Jones and Carolyn and Beverly didn't want to, like,
00:56:54they weren't going to, like, have a carrot dangle in front of them.
00:56:57They decided to, like, fuck that shit.
00:57:02The assumption was that we would, you know, do what every other group does
00:57:07and kind of just become part of the system, part of the music industry.
00:57:13A lot of people didn't want to get famous.
00:57:15Getting famous didn't seem to be a kind of goal you wanted to pursue.
00:57:19I mean, you know, getting famous was kind of selling out.
00:57:26It's funny because we did talk about those things, but honestly, like, you know,
00:57:30we stuck out like a sore thumb anyways.
00:57:32We were so clearly not in alignment.
00:57:36We didn't look like we were, you know, the normal people who were the usual crew
00:57:40who would be on television, so, yeah.
00:57:45I never really got the impression that Fifth Column sold out.
00:57:49Gloria saw to that.
00:57:51I think Caroline could have been, you know, perfectly happy just moving past the college indie circuit
00:57:57and getting into a bigger realm just to communicate with more people.
00:58:03And I know I think for myself, I would very much, the idea of just being able to make a
00:58:09better income
00:58:09and do what I like doing, that was, that was, I would have loved to do that.
00:58:44Good night.
00:59:11When I left the city,
00:59:15it was really different because it didn't feel as innocent as it once was.
00:59:21Things started to feel more serious.
00:59:24I went into the whole project with kind of a different idea in mind of what I wanted to do.
00:59:33Because, you know, we weren't going to be running around with guns,
00:59:37creating riots and trying to change the world that way,
00:59:41our whole method of trying to affect a kind of a change
00:59:46was to introduce these really subversive elements into a culture that we were in opposition to.
00:59:55That was a large part of what Fifth Column was about.
01:00:00Sabotage, subversion, and a struggle for power.
01:00:05Fifth Column to me was actually more of an activity or a group of workers working together,
01:00:13more so than it was a band.
01:00:15So Fifth Column was a tool in some sense.
01:00:18Well, you know, I don't think there were many structures that would have left standing if we had our way.
01:00:23We really did want to change the world.
01:00:26So economic structures and political structures,
01:00:30all the rigid boundaries around who you could be and who you couldn't be
01:00:34according to your economic status or your sexual preference or your gender identity.
01:00:39The real world kind of sucks.
01:00:43But the world we created didn't suck.
01:00:46So if you can exist in that world,
01:00:47and I'm going to piggyback that with the movies that were made during that time.
01:00:53It's that we're really, to me, now really monolith because they created their own world
01:00:58and their own party and their own laws and their own ethics and their own guilds.
01:01:06And it was a world that was not related to a real world.
01:01:09It was a world of happiness and acceptance and ridicule.
01:01:19And then it was over and then that's the last thing you've ever heard of us.
01:01:24No, no.
01:01:24And then we put out our album.
01:01:26And then we went on tour.
01:01:29And that was the story.
01:01:31Is there more that you wanted to know?
01:01:36And.
01:02:15I trapped away every day
01:02:19I'm feeling the afflicted
01:02:23Water and diseases
01:02:26Water and diseases
01:02:52Water and diseases
01:02:55Water and diseases
01:02:57Water and diseases
01:02:59Condition
01:03:01Critical
01:03:03Condition of control
01:03:20The list of causes
01:03:35Water and diseases
01:03:38Water and diseases
01:03:48Water and diseases
01:03:49Water and diseases
01:03:49Water and diseases
01:03:50Water and diseases
01:03:50Water and diseases
01:03:50Water and diseases
01:03:50Water and diseases
01:03:50Water and diseases
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