- 7 hours ago
She Said Boom The Story of Fifth Column (2012) [Full Movie] [Full Episodes]Full EP - Full
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Short filmTranscript
00:00:28Transcription by CastingWords
00:00:45CastingWords
00:01:00CastingWords
00:01:01I can't imagine 5th Column existing without conflict. It's systemic.
00:01:08The core members of 5th Column were Caroline, Beverly and GB. I would say they were very different people. I
00:01:19think that probably was a source of a reasonable amount of conflict in the band.
00:01:23It would be like, you know, it would be like absolutely epic, you know, legendary fights. I mean there was
00:01:30no like holding back on these things.
00:01:48Everyone was constantly fighting. It was like filmmakers and artists and musicians. And so there was a lot of different
00:01:56opinions. And there was a lot of fighting.
00:01:58But that was really an essential part of the creative process, I think.
00:02:04We were pretty dynamic because of the nature of disagreeing. That's the thing is that whatever crisis we went through,
00:02:12whatever conflict or clashing, that's what the art was.
00:02:22Like this, it begins again.
00:02:26Like this, it begins again.
00:02:29Like this, it begins again.
00:02:33Like this, it begins again.
00:02:35Like this, it begins again.
00:02:36Like this, it begins again.
00:02:44I don't think that there were any physical confrontations, but sometimes there was screaming. And, but Gloria would kind of
00:02:52do a caricature of someone losing it or coming undone. And she would, she would pretend she was holding this
00:02:58knife. Or I think she would even take a knife and hold it. And she would run at you with
00:03:02her arms and her legs flailing.
00:03:17And, but I couldn't.
00:03:26Like this, it Dann
00:03:36The broad chosen groom
00:03:38You've ruined my way
00:03:40And the landlord is dead
00:04:07At the time, there was a real sense of crisis
00:04:11And I think that people were
00:04:14The people that I knew
00:04:15Certainly were really critical
00:04:17Of authority and institutions
00:04:19And the kind of contradictions
00:04:22That animated liberal democracies
00:04:26And some of those contradictions
00:04:28Had to do with sexuality
00:04:30And what you were allowed to do
00:04:32And what you weren't allowed to do
00:04:34And the fact that most of the
00:04:37Restrictions on you were implicit
00:04:39Rather than explicit
00:04:40And those things really rankled young people
00:04:43And really pissed people off
00:04:45It probably doesn't need to be said
00:04:47But obviously the culture alienated us
00:04:50We weren't part of the culture
00:04:51Not because, you know, we
00:04:53Not so much because we made a decision
00:04:56Not to be
00:04:58But because obviously there just wasn't a place for us
00:05:01In the culture as it existed
00:05:05Toronto was a really different place
00:05:07When Fifth Column started
00:05:09But Toronto was really tough
00:05:10It was a tough city
00:05:12And it felt more violent
00:05:15There was a lot of undercurrents
00:05:17Of tensions between people
00:05:20We had rocks thrown through our front window
00:05:23And eventually we ended up replacing the glass
00:05:28So that it wouldn't happen again
00:05:31We learned to take a tip from the people
00:05:34Who were from the mental health center
00:05:37And we began to dress up like that
00:05:40Wear two or three hats
00:05:41And a couple of coats
00:05:43And we would be able to walk around
00:05:44And do what we want
00:05:45Go to the store
00:05:46Without any harassment
00:05:48By, you know, camouflaging ourselves essentially
00:05:52We lived a lot of our life out of doors
00:05:54And on the streets, too
00:05:57Moving around the city
00:05:59You know, there were
00:06:00I mean, even just putting posters up for performances
00:06:02Or spray painting things on walls
00:06:05So a lot of our time was spent
00:06:07In places where we probably shouldn't have been
00:06:12We'd be rel Rather than at that
00:06:38We'd be able to
00:06:39I'm going to show you where I'm going from tonight
00:06:42Dancing into the United States
00:06:45What's the time I'm getting my boss
00:06:48Casting on my sides of us
00:06:50But it doesn't get me in the middle of the world
00:06:54Nothing I can get from winning in this world
00:06:56I'm going to tell you what I'm talking about
00:06:59I'm going to put you close
00:07:02I'm going to show you where I'm going
00:07:04So I'm going to show you where I'm going
00:07:07This is about to be so long
00:07:10And we've got books and books
00:07:12She's never justified
00:07:15And we're sitting in my life
00:07:19This is about to serve the perfect
00:07:22Churchill and his boss
00:07:30Fifth column was preceded by an effort
00:07:35That Janet and I had made
00:07:37To create a band called Second Unit
00:07:40And when we met GB
00:07:41That's when we transformed into Fifth Column
00:07:45So then I was going to school too
00:07:47And I had a friend named Jack Brown
00:07:49Who was also going to school
00:07:51And he said
00:07:52Oh I know these two girls that are starting a band
00:07:55Do you want to go and play with them?
00:07:57And he said
00:07:58Can you play drums?
00:07:59And I just said yes
00:08:00Even though I had never ever
00:08:03Even sat at a drum kit before
00:08:06So I went and I pretended I knew how to play drums
00:08:10And I saw them at this party
00:08:12And they had three songs
00:08:13And they played the three songs over and over again
00:08:16And I couldn't get enough of them
00:08:19They had this grumpy girl behind drums
00:08:21With long red hair
00:08:22And that would have been a girl
00:08:24Who named herself Gloria Berlin
00:08:26Who we now know as GB Jones
00:08:30So after we played that one party
00:08:33Then we decided we wanted to have someone to sing in the band
00:08:40And so we had two people come over
00:08:44And one of them was Caroline
00:08:45And we all decided
00:08:47Yeah, Caroline's amazing
00:08:48Because first of all
00:08:53She had an incredible style
00:08:56And the other girls were absolutely stunning punk goddesses
00:09:00And I was this short, goofy kid from Forest Hill Collegiate
00:09:05Who wore big sweaters
00:09:06And had my bangs way over my eyes
00:09:09Bringing Caroline into the band
00:09:11Really unleashed the kind of performative aspect of the band
00:09:15And it really gave an incredibly dynamic presence to us
00:09:21So much so that we knew that that was the point
00:09:24At which we were ready to start playing publicly
00:09:31What do you do in the same days
00:09:35I would still take up
00:09:37When I realize going by on your bed
00:09:40And when the car goes wild
00:10:00I think Fifth Column was an art punk band
00:10:05With a feminist edge
00:10:07It's like Fifth Column was an art band
00:10:09But they weren't an arty band, right?
00:10:11I always think of an arty band like Devo
00:10:13And they get dressed up in these costumes
00:10:14And, you know, they were arty
00:10:16But they weren't an art band
00:10:18Like Fifth Column to me was like a band that was like art
00:10:21What made their music so unique and special
00:10:26Is that it was played in a way
00:10:29That just sort of like broke new ground
00:10:32You know, the structure of the songs
00:10:36The way that Caroline would sing
00:10:40G.B. Jones' amazing
00:10:44Incredibly sexy husky voice
00:10:47That voice
00:10:48It's not so much that Fifth Column
00:10:51Where a band of musicians and singers
00:10:54It was like G.B. Jones and Fifth Column
00:10:57And Caroline, there were these sirens
00:11:00That were like calling you out to destroy your ship
00:11:03Or something
00:11:03Because they played music that was punk in idea
00:11:08But not punk in terms of genre
00:11:10Because they played like psychedelic rock music
00:11:13You know, like really 60s influenced
00:11:16They were doing this thing that to me opened up the idea
00:11:19That like there can be all different kinds of women in bands
00:11:23And all different kinds of music played by all different kinds of women in bands
00:11:26And it's not this one thing where everybody sounds like L7
00:11:31And it seemed like G.B.'s drumming was kind of the forefront of that
00:11:34But it was, you know, it was like a metaphor for all that opposition
00:11:38It was like, well, I'm not going to keep time
00:11:39I'm not going to sit back there and keep time for the rest of the band to kind of rock
00:11:43out
00:11:44Because we're not going to rock out in that way
00:11:46We're going to kind of do something different, right?
00:11:48It wasn't straight ahead three chord rock and roll based in that convention
00:11:54For a number of reasons
00:11:55One of which was that we probably couldn't have played that music
00:12:00We were learning how to play as we were becoming a band
00:12:04They really thought songs differently
00:12:07And they thought rhythm differently and stuff like this, right?
00:12:09And they were able to kind of translate this different way of thinking about a song
00:12:14And how it was structured into an actual song
00:12:17Well, I mean, we didn't know any other way of doing it
00:12:20And we were making it up
00:12:21So what it meant was that a lot of the times the music sounded kind of weird
00:12:27And actually, G.B., I think, she made a tape of some Fifth Column stuff
00:12:32A compilation tape for someone
00:12:34And she called it The Sound of Music Falling Apart
00:12:36And I thought that was just the perfect way to describe the way to sound it
00:12:39She makes lists, shopping lists, from other players
00:12:49Listlessly in line with a line
00:12:52And tonight, be careful
00:12:54Don't burn the underground parking
00:12:57And don't burn the sauna
00:12:59At night, don't burn the elevator
00:13:02And don't want something away
00:13:13Welcome to Windu Street
00:13:14I'm Erica M
00:13:15When we decided on doing a story on the Toronto Independent Band Fifth Column
00:13:18I was a bit concerned
00:13:20Because most people that I mentioned the name to
00:13:22Went, ooh, that feminist band
00:13:25They hate men
00:13:26And I couldn't disagree
00:13:27Their album was called
00:13:28The Sir With Hay
00:13:31The fact that they just got on stage
00:13:32And they were who they were was enough
00:13:35They didn't have to, like, sing, like
00:13:38Gay power, feminist power
00:13:40Like, they didn't have to do that
00:13:42It was like their presence was totally enough
00:13:43And the fact that they took it for granted
00:13:45That they were allowed to be there
00:13:46Supposed to be there
00:13:47And that they were making the music they wanted to make
00:13:50Um, that was it
00:13:54I think just having a girl band
00:13:58Itself was, at that time, still a fairly political act
00:14:01It just had to be some women doing something
00:14:05Like, women getting together and saying
00:14:06We're going to be in a band
00:14:08Suddenly was a feminist statement
00:14:09When, you know, there wasn't a label for boys getting together and being in a band
00:14:15So, it's a really strange phenomenon
00:14:17But the thing you have to really remember about Fifth Column
00:14:20Is they were feminist
00:14:23I mean, they didn't even, like, relate to the orthodox feminist movement
00:14:28But, um, but they were essentially a kind of a feminist band
00:14:35So, there was a lot of animosity towards them
00:14:38There was a lot of hostility towards them
00:14:40There's a sort of writing off of something
00:14:43Or categorizing of something
00:14:45Like, you say, oh, they're feminist
00:14:47And that sort of sticks them into a certain category
00:14:49And we don't really have to pay attention to a lot of other things, you know
00:14:52And maybe we don't even have to pay attention to the music
00:14:54But, you know, you can't, it's very difficult to talk about feminism
00:14:57Because it's not one thing
00:14:58So, it's a lot, a lot of different things
00:15:01But I think we definitely all shared a feeling of being outside of culture
00:15:07So, there wasn't a lot happening that we felt spoke to us or related to us
00:15:12So, we did a lot of critiquing
00:15:14And that's what we were really looking for as young feminists
00:15:17Was, like, other feminists to connect with
00:15:19Who weren't, um, like, single-issue feminists
00:15:23Who weren't just like, we want to climb the corporate ladder
00:15:25And, um, become just as fucked up and assholes as, like, all the guys
00:15:30We want the right to, like, be racist too
00:15:32Or we want the right to enforce classism on other people
00:15:35Or, like, whatever
00:15:36And I just felt like, um, the girls in Toronto just had this view that was larger
00:15:45Our model was kind of, like, divine in Pink Flamingos
00:15:50When the reporter says, are you a lesbian?
00:15:52And she says, yes, I've done everything
00:15:55And it's, like, any word you can use to describe me
00:15:59That you think is bad is good to me
00:16:02Because the worst you can, the worst things you can call me, the better
00:16:06Are you feminists?
00:16:09Bull Dykes from Transylvania
00:16:36People valued authenticity and the whole idea of authenticity in the real
00:16:40And, of course, being in this outsider position in culture
00:16:45We were very aware that everything that was supposedly real around us
00:16:49Was actually a total construction
00:16:51And just, of course, all the media
00:16:53You know, that the culture that you're totally alienated from
00:16:58Is just, like, a constructed culture
00:17:00And, um, totally unreal
00:17:02It doesn't have any relationship to your life
00:17:06And, as a matter of fact, it totally alienates you from life
00:17:10It's not, um, so, part of our rejection of that
00:17:15Was to, like, embrace the artificial
00:17:17So, like, we, um, you know, we, we put together this whole theory
00:17:23About how, like, um, bands from the 60s
00:17:28Like the bubblegum groups
00:17:29That everyone just hated
00:17:31We said we loved them
00:17:33Because, um, almost all of those groups
00:17:37Their message was addressed to, like, teenage girls
00:17:40So it was the only music you could really listen to
00:17:43That didn't have all these, like, really misogynist, um,
00:17:47This really misogynist content in it
00:17:49We thought the faker they were, the better they are
00:17:52And so, um, it was interesting
00:17:54Because that led us to, like, watch the movies of, um, Dave Markey
00:17:59Uh, Loved All Superstars
00:18:01Have you seen that movie?
00:18:04Superstar, Loved All Superstars
00:18:10Superstar, Loved All Superstars
00:18:28It all kind of, um, came back to this idea
00:18:33Where you would construct your identity
00:18:35And that, um, something that was really artificial
00:18:38Would actually be more meaningful
00:18:41Than something that had the pretense of authenticity
00:18:43Because, um, you actually chose your identity
00:18:47You actually created it
00:18:59The next day, everything changed
00:19:00No need not be, cause I know
00:19:06The next day, everything changed
00:19:37Well, they looked very different.
00:19:39They had amazing hair was one thing, they all had beautiful hair and they had very classic looks, like they
00:19:45were obviously very, there was meaning to how they were dressing, it wasn't random at all.
00:19:51I think we scared people and it's strange because you're working on yourself, you've got your kabuki makeup, you've got
00:19:59a lot of makeup, your hair is teased up high and you look at yourself and you think, I'm so
00:20:03beautiful.
00:20:04And you go out and you look like a car accident to most people because it's not natural.
00:20:11If we walked by, a bunch of the guys from the pool hall would sort of rush onto the sidewalk
00:20:16and start singing Rock Lobster at us, the B-52 song.
00:20:21It was quite a novel way of harassing someone.
00:20:25I think at the time we were really inspired by the big hair movie stars like Sharon Tate.
00:20:30I think she also wore some pretty darn good eye makeup too.
00:20:33Who else?
00:20:35How about the Flintstones?
00:20:37Marg Rock?
00:20:38And Marg Rock was definitely an influence.
00:20:40And all the patties.
00:20:42Patties?
00:20:43Patties?
00:20:44Patties?
00:20:44Pattie Duke.
00:20:44Pattie Smooth.
00:20:46Oh right, a peppermint patty.
00:20:48Pattie.
00:20:49You know, we're wanting to have our own sense of style or enjoy the experience of beauty but, you know,
00:20:56for Fifth Column it's a different kind of beauty.
00:20:58And it doesn't just have to be, you know, even though there's nothing wrong with that, that's one kind too.
00:21:05But when it's just always, always the same every time, it's like a type of torture, you know.
00:21:11I should say at the same time we were also all going to the funnel and watching experimental movies all
00:21:17the time.
00:21:18And so right from the beginning there was this kind of interaction with the film community.
00:21:23Because we were really interested in people like Lydia Lunch because she was making a lot of amazing movies with
00:21:29Vivian Dick and Scott and Beth B.
00:21:33Yeah, so it was all part of creating artwork.
00:21:39Like you became your own artwork in a lot of ways.
00:21:45Which has the similarities to people like Jack Smith as well who spent his whole life doing that.
00:21:50And of course we were really influenced by that because we saw Jack Smith perform at the funnel.
00:22:01So that was kind of like all converging at once.
00:22:04It was never really separate.
00:22:06And so then when we started working with John Porter it was like this natural kind of thing to just
00:22:12incorporate film into what we were doing.
00:22:42Film is a big part of what we were doing.
00:22:44All of us went to school and studied film theory.
00:22:47You know, we were just really, you know, film obsessed.
00:22:52And often, you know, when we would write songs they were very filmic.
00:22:56They would start in a soundtrack sort of vein.
00:22:59And the stories in the lyrics were almost like an epic film to us.
00:23:08GB was making movies and so, you know, a lot of those she filmed where we lived and with our
00:23:13friends.
00:23:14So, you know, it was not a weird day to go down the street to try to have a fight
00:23:20or play yo-yo so she could help us.
00:23:29Get out of the road, boy!
00:23:31Yeah!
00:23:37Yeah!
00:23:48When people see G.B. Jones' films or Bruce's films, especially like the early, early films
00:23:54from the 80s and whatnot, they're like sort of stunned because everything now is about
00:24:00slick professionalism or this so-called fake reality, but the kind of movies that they
00:24:06were doing, the kind of films that I was doing, it was the real reality films.
00:25:07Fifth column decided to tour the states and it was the eastern seaboard.
00:25:11We hit about 13 towns, 13 cities.
00:25:13Caroline, of course, was just organizing everything and speaking to club promoters and setting
00:25:22up the gigs.
00:25:23I had created a character named Magda Savage, who was our phony manager.
00:25:30And we found that when we phoned people and said, look, we're touring and we'd like to
00:25:35play, they were like, who are you?
00:25:38And I'd say, I'm in the band.
00:25:39And it didn't matter to them.
00:25:40But if I had a manager who phoned them up and talked about how great the band was, that
00:25:47made a difference to them.
00:25:48So I created a character named Magda Savage.
00:25:51But it was also really convenient because, you know, anybody who had the time could be
00:25:54Magda Savage.
00:25:56It didn't all have to be Caroline.
00:25:57And also, it was a good, it was a negotiating tool for us because, you know, if something was
00:26:04going on that we weren't comfortable with, we were like, sorry, you have to talk to Magda
00:26:07Savage.
00:26:08And she sounded like this.
00:26:10Hi, how are you?
00:26:12I've heard of your club there in Ann Arbor.
00:26:15It's a fantastic club.
00:26:16The girls have always wanted to play here.
00:26:41traditions.
00:26:42It's amazing.
00:26:42Honestly, I'm the one of theabilish habrates.
00:26:47So we're like oh, maybe she'll come through 43, dosis as we want to figure our way out.
00:26:54Temps here for لي.
00:26:56And see what I want to have.
00:26:56No?
00:27:00I'd say see how old you love, today, We got to have a 16-year- erzähle.
00:27:18You know, it's funny, people came and went in Fifth Column.
00:27:22To me, it was always a big mystery about the previous members,
00:27:27and I suppose, in a way, I was a bit in awe.
00:27:32It's hard to talk about the power struggles because they were always changing and shifting.
00:27:38So at a certain point, my friendship with GB was very, very tight, really solid.
00:27:48And then a year later, we were kind of glaring at each other from across the room.
00:27:54Well, I think people sometimes found Caroline and GB hard to work with
00:27:59just because they were so certain about their aesthetic.
00:28:03I mean, they really had a clear vision of what they wanted,
00:28:06and it was often hard to articulate or hard for other people to understand
00:28:11or maybe relate to.
00:28:14So, you know, sometimes that generated conflict for people.
00:28:22I don't want to make it sound like people were stupid and didn't understand,
00:28:25but I'm just thinking, you know, does anybody talk about Michelle and Luke and Donna and Tori
00:28:33and all the other people that were in the band?
00:28:36Members came and went, but I think that the core of the band always remained.
00:28:42And I guess the only real constant was that Caroline and I were both in the band always.
00:28:47And so Caroline was writing most of the lyrics because she's a brilliant lyricist.
00:28:53And I would write a couple of songs, and then we would write a few songs together.
00:28:59At different points, other people would write stuff as well.
00:29:04Beverly contributed lyrics to some songs.
00:29:06And, of course, everyone participated in the songwriting kind of on an equal level.
00:29:12In my mind, the band became really strong and defined when Beverly Breckenridge joined.
00:29:17Originally, I mean, I said I didn't play, but I played clarinet in high school.
00:29:21And she, you know, asked me, do you play anything?
00:29:23Yeah, or do you play any instruments?
00:29:24And I said, well, I play clarinet.
00:29:25And she was like, awesome.
00:29:27No, she didn't say awesome.
00:29:28She said, that's great.
00:29:30You should, well, you know, you should play with us sometime.
00:29:33I was like, yeah.
00:29:34So I actually did go and bring out my old clarinet and start playing it, but the clarinet thing
00:29:38never happened.
00:29:39I was precocious.
00:29:42You know, GB was uncompromising.
00:29:45We were both strangely shy and had no social graces.
00:29:48And then this bass player comes in who can, people aren't threatened by her.
00:29:53So all of a sudden, I think we were more approachable because of her involvement.
00:29:58And secondly, I was like, and the other thing is, I'm actually kind of shy.
00:30:01Like, being on stage wasn't something that I was interested in doing.
00:30:04Again, she reassured me, that's no problem.
00:30:05You just play with your butt to the audience.
00:30:07So I did that for many years, actually.
00:30:10It took a long time before I planned facing the audience.
00:30:20I mean, I remember going to Just Desserts, like the original Just Desserts restaurant.
00:30:23There was every cake you could ever imagine in there.
00:30:27And if you look through the windows of Just Desserts, you would see the most interesting-looking waitstaff.
00:30:33I worked there.
00:30:35GB worked there.
00:30:36And we met a wild, crazy young guy who had hair like John Sex, you know, from the 80s,
00:30:46from New York's Danceteria days.
00:30:47And his name was Brian Bruce.
00:30:50And him and GB became very close, and she renamed him Bruce LaBruce.
00:30:55Because we were all working together, it was so boring there.
00:30:59And you just start talking to people.
00:31:02And Bruce was interested in film.
00:31:04He was, yeah, he was a film student.
00:31:06He was writing film theory.
00:31:07So naturally, that was interesting.
00:31:11Next thing, you know, you knew, Gloria was like, well, we've got a go-go dancer.
00:31:15And he's coming down to the shows, and he's going to dance.
00:31:22And to be honest, I remember thinking, why do we want that?
00:31:27So there we are, opening up for the Jesus and Mary chain.
00:31:30And Bruce is doing this great Gerard Malenga go-go dance in the middle of the Fairview Mall story.
00:31:37I think the impetus behind using a boy go-go dancer for a song like the Fairview Mall is kind
00:31:45of like, that is a statement.
00:31:47You know, a bunch of girls on stage are doing the work with the instruments, and the boy's doing the
00:31:51dancing.
00:31:53So, yeah, so he started hanging around with us, and then I came up with this idea that he would
00:31:58play, like, the archetypical bag on a song called The Fairview Mall Story,
00:32:04which was about a police bus in St. Catharines of the Fairview Mall washroom, where they had put surveillance cameras
00:32:13in to arrest people.
00:32:14And the aftermath of that was that all the people that were arrested had lost their jobs,
00:32:19and I believe one man committed suicide because his life was ruined.
00:32:25City is dead, the prince will be as lonely, once a tomboy, tomboy, tomboy.
00:32:30His wife does wonder if there's a plan, looking so lovingly, you're a man, and holding his eye in her
00:32:38hand.
00:32:41City and winter, ripin' hair, now my favorite, ripin' hair, now it's dark, pray.
00:32:47Where my car keys are going to the mall, honey?
00:32:52He took the family car to Fairview Mall.
00:32:55Get her.
00:32:56He went to Kresge's, and then he went down the hall.
00:32:59Mary, don't grant.
00:33:00Into the washroom he hid in a stall.
00:33:03What's a boy to do?
00:33:06Met a young man and took a fall.
00:33:11Then staring at each other, I believe that they answered the call.
00:33:17Fit no mind, girl.
00:33:20I think it was very different.
00:33:22There were no other bands that would have sang about that sort of stuff at all.
00:33:27There were no queer male bands at all.
00:33:30There was just Fifth Column.
00:33:31I mean, there were different members of Fifth Column over the years, and certainly a number of them were not
00:33:36gay at all.
00:33:38Gay, queer, anything.
00:33:39Were quite straight.
00:33:40But they became known, at least for a period of birth, I think they became pretty much known almost as
00:33:46a gay band.
00:33:47There were assumptions about Fifth Column, being queer or, you know, because we were mostly women or a women-led
00:33:53band, that we were lesbians.
00:33:55And how we sometimes used that, how we didn't want to clear, you know, we didn't feel like we needed
00:34:01to clear any of that up.
00:34:02We weren't really concerned with what people thought of us.
00:34:06Well, I was pretty open about being in love with GB at the time.
00:34:12I was 19, and I told my parents I wanted to marry her.
00:34:16That flipped them out.
00:34:20It did.
00:34:23But we got over that.
00:34:26I told her, I said, we could go to Hawaii and get married because you weren't allowed to get married
00:34:32in Canada yet.
00:34:33And she said, are you nuts?
00:34:35And that was the end of that.
00:34:38But what would you, what if I had a baby?
00:34:42I'd steal it from you.
00:34:43What would you do to it?
00:34:45I'd turn it queer.
00:34:48One of the reasons we turned to punk in the first place was because we were disillusioned with the direction
00:34:52of the gay movement,
00:34:53that it had become assimilationist and bourgeois even back in the, in the, in the mid-80s.
00:34:59A lot of gay men hated women.
00:35:01And it was very thinly veiled at the time.
00:35:04Like, there was, there was a real separation between men and women in those days.
00:35:08And they didn't really collaborate, and they didn't really have common interests, and they didn't hang out together.
00:35:12Oh yeah, man.
00:35:14I want to fuck your tight ass.
00:35:16That reminds me, did you boys buy toilet paper?
00:35:19Boys don't use as much toilet paper as girls do, so I shouldn't have to buy any.
00:35:24What?
00:35:24What about the shit on the end of your dick while you're packing that fudge, brownie hounds?
00:35:29Woo!
00:35:45These girls that had a hardcore punk band called ASF, Antis Grunty Faction, and they lived in Boulder, Colorado.
00:35:52And I set up a show for them at this punk club called Le Coctet.
00:35:57And they, we decided to show some of the movies we were making, because Bruce was already starting to make
00:36:03movies by that point, and I was making movies.
00:36:05And, um, so then there was just this huge fight, like, some of the punk kids got really upset at
00:36:11the queer content in the movies.
00:36:14And started punching Bruce, and Carolyn was there, and she was running up to defend him.
00:36:21So we were, like, the sissies and the dykes who were, um, who wanted to be part of the punk
00:36:30movement, but we were, like, really pissed off by the homophobia and misogyny in the punk movement.
00:36:35So that's what we started to make our fanzines about, our experimental short, super-rate films about, and, um, that
00:36:44was, uh, sort of our, our dilemma.
00:36:47We were, we were caught between these two subcultures, punk and gay, and we were kind of, um, rejected by
00:36:56both of them.
00:36:56I mean, the punk world was really straight, um, and the gay world was really lame.
00:37:03And there wasn't really a place for, for kids who, sort of, you know, had more of a punk aesthetic.
00:37:10Yeah, I could change your mind, and you were good just fine, we could still find, run away to San
00:37:21Jose, they say every day, we're strange, that's okay, who cares?
00:37:30And I, I'm not going home today.
00:37:40Queercore started, as I like to say, in my apartment on Queen Street at Queen of Parliament, in my living
00:37:46room, where everyone would come and hang out.
00:37:48So I made this little cassette tape up, and I started mailing it out to my friends, and I just
00:37:53called it, um, the homo-core tape.
00:37:56So I just made up this word, I thought it was funny, because hardcore, homo-core, so I made that
00:38:00word up.
00:38:01And then when we did the zine, I thought, oh, okay, I'll use that word, because it's so funny.
00:38:06So, you know, punk has its, uh, its gay origins, and we were trying to put the gay back in
00:38:13punk.
00:38:14I think that, I think the beginning of it was sort of taking straight punk images and kind of giving
00:38:21them a homo-erotic feel, you know?
00:38:24So there'd be, there'd be pictures of, like, totally straight punk shows, but guys with their shirts off, looking really
00:38:29hot, and there was sort of a fetishization, I think, of, um, of, of that sort of aesthetic.
00:38:35We would get these straight boys in bands that were either staying at our house or, or would come over
00:38:40to visit, and we'd try to get them drunk, and then make them take their clothes off, so we could
00:38:45take naked pictures of them to publish in our homo-punk fanzine.
00:38:50And they made it seem like in Canada, in, in Toronto, there was this real big queer skinhead with these
00:38:57tough-looking, sexy, hot, muscly punk rock boys, these hot, gorgeous punk rock boys,
00:39:03who all were gay and into punk, when there really wasn't, uh, a scene as such. It was just in
00:39:10the figments of, uh, GB Jones's imagination and Bruce's imagination.
00:39:14So suddenly, there were kids who were dressing like that, and there were kids who liked punk music, and then
00:39:19all of a sudden there were people who were in bands who were making that kind of music.
00:39:22So it really was, it was a North American phenomenon.
00:39:26You know, a lot of guys kind of thought, oh, this is all about us, and they just assumed that
00:39:32it was all just going to be, like, the same as gay except punk.
00:39:36You know, that's what a lot of people think queer-core is, they just think it's gay punk, which it
00:39:41totally isn't.
00:39:42So I wanted to change it to queer-core because I wanted to make sure that it was inclusive of
00:39:48girls and beyond gender, beyond label.
00:40:15We got Double Bill, and it was, like, kind of about William Burroughs, and, you know,
00:40:23William Conrad, the star of Canon.
00:40:25The TV star, Bill Cannon, who is the protector of women.
00:40:30And then Icky Burrows, who tries to kill women,
00:40:35who's completely misogynist.
00:40:38It's brilliant!
00:40:40I worked on a zine called Hyde.
00:40:42We would do this beautiful Xerox art,
00:40:44and you'd spend a lot of time working with Zatchiko knives.
00:40:47You know, in those days, you didn't have Photoshop or anything.
00:40:50You just had a knife and Xerox and tape.
00:40:57You know, we were all working on fanzines,
00:40:59and so we'd be working, like, all night on these fanzines
00:41:01and putting them out and sending them to people that we knew.
00:41:04And that was your social life, in a way.
00:41:07Like, you didn't have a bar to go to, so you got stuff done,
00:41:11which is really good, you know?
00:41:12Like, you weren't just out dancing and drinking like all the other people were.
00:41:15You were actually, like, staying up all night creating a fanzine
00:41:18and sending it out to people or recording some song on a 4-track.
00:41:23And that was the social life, because there wasn't somewhere to go.
00:41:26Well, you know, I'm going to give credit to J.D.'s, because besides 5th Column,
00:41:32the J.D.'s fanzine, which was more about queer punk,
00:41:36and was really the, you know, like, the grandmother and the granddaddy of all that.
00:41:43I think that's what invited 5th Column to all these endeavors,
00:41:46because of our association with J.D.'s.
00:41:48To me, I think that's when it blew up.
00:41:51Zines played a huge role in 5th Column's popularity,
00:41:54because all of a sudden we were able to reach a lot more people
00:41:57and find other people who were collaborators
00:41:59who we wouldn't have been able to find.
00:42:01You know, we found like-minded people in different cities all over the continent,
00:42:05so it changed things dramatically.
00:42:11People in the mainstream have no idea how easy it is to kind of reach their children,
00:42:18because if you put out a scene, you put out records,
00:42:21they're all very appealing to young people,
00:42:23and you can get your message across,
00:42:25and it comes right into their bedroom, and it's private,
00:42:28and then you can reach them that way without having to go through mainstream channels.
00:42:51You know, we had this crickety house that you would, you know, walk through the stairs,
00:42:55and your foot would go through the stairs, and raccoons would fall down,
00:42:58and the windows were like covered with glitter,
00:43:01and the floors were crooked, so we lived in Alice in Wonderland.
00:43:05It literally was one of the diviest places I'd ever seen.
00:43:10There were so many cockroaches.
00:43:12I've never seen that many cockroaches before or since.
00:43:16The building inspector ended up coming over to our house,
00:43:20and he was walking up the stairs to go up to the second floor,
00:43:25and he literally fell right through the staircase,
00:43:28like down one whole flight of stairs.
00:43:32not down the stairs, but through the hole in the stairs,
00:43:35down into the next floor.
00:43:38That's how bad the building was.
00:43:41They found about 113 violations in the house.
00:43:45There was a clock on the wall that was sort of half fallen out of the wall,
00:43:51and the cockroaches used to swarm,
00:43:54like there was literally thousands of cockroaches in this house.
00:43:57It was the most disgusting thing, like you could imagine,
00:44:01but you get used to it, you know.
00:44:04It was hard, but it was good, because why was it good?
00:44:17Well, it wasn't good, really.
00:44:18It was really hard, but what can you do about it?
00:44:22There's nothing you can do about it.
00:44:30Well, what do you know?
00:44:32No skin off my ass.
00:44:38The whole Warhol kind of influence was really interesting,
00:44:41because we kind of mimicked the superstar thing that Warhol did,
00:44:47so each of us would either accuse or kind of identify the other
00:44:53as relating to one of the superstars.
00:44:56So, I mean, Gloria was very Nico in her whole approach, in her voice,
00:45:02in her kind of like the way that she would just go silent,
00:45:05this kind of like sphinx without a riddle,
00:45:07this kind of like enigma that you just present as a kind of empty signifier
00:45:14that people can project onto.
00:45:26Well, the fanzine war, the rifts, kind of basically boiled down to
00:45:34accusations of me being a sellout.
00:45:37And I think that the attention and success that Bruce began to have
00:45:41with No Skin Off My Ass sort of started a ball rolling where,
00:45:45you know, perhaps there was some resentment that other people
00:45:49weren't getting the credit they deserved,
00:45:50because these things were very collaborative efforts.
00:45:53I mean, not to take anything away from him,
00:45:55it was his movie and he made it and he edited it and all of those things,
00:45:58but because what we were all working on was so collaborative,
00:46:02I think when one person began to be singled out as,
00:46:05you know, someone who had done something in particular
00:46:08and everyone else was sort of, you know, in the shadow,
00:46:11I think there was a certain amount of resentment or just difficulty
00:46:14sort of negotiating that.
00:46:15It was the fanzine wars, basically, and it got very acrimonious
00:46:19and there was a lot of name-calling and kind of defamation of character.
00:46:29There's been a lot written about the whole zine wars and, you know,
00:46:34the falling out between...
00:46:35I'm probably one of the few people that has been able to stay good friends
00:46:39with all of the people involved over the years,
00:46:43one of the few people, you know.
00:46:46But, you know, when you deal with people who have explosive personalities
00:46:49and are creative, of course there's going to be conflicts.
00:46:52It's like, it's not going to be all like little birdies singing along.
00:46:57No, it's not going to be like that at all.
00:46:59You know, there's going to be like some conflicts and things like that.
00:47:02And, you know, well, honey, you know what Toronto is like.
00:47:06It's like Toronto is like a real nitpicky town.
00:47:09So it's like, you know, and you know how you Canadians are.
00:47:15How?
00:47:17Whoa, got your tape decks on there, Canada?
00:47:20Well, welcome to the wacky world of Fifth Column.
00:47:23And this here is our holiday song.
00:47:38Well, here we européens, yeah, it's gonna be nice...
00:47:43Come with me, Hamlu萬ize...
00:47:45He used to be very cool.
00:47:47Have fun, Camrynze,borg.
00:47:50Phenomenize...
00:47:50That's gonna be easy...
00:47:51Yeah.
00:47:52Gotta wait for sure...
00:47:53It makes me want to escape my soul
00:47:57That we're all in a dance
00:47:59So I can fall into it
00:48:01In the future
00:48:02If there is room
00:48:04We just can't find the match
00:48:08But I've been dreaming
00:48:10To become lawyers
00:48:13And let us think about
00:48:15What we really have to say
00:48:17So I don't want to go this way
00:48:28The girls went wild
00:48:29Like even these young girls
00:48:31Like schoolgirls, little riot girls
00:48:34They would just be ripping their chests
00:48:36Yelling, singing with us
00:48:39Young gay boys
00:48:41And just people who were just welcoming
00:48:44And you know, one thing that was interesting
00:48:47Is we seem to have more of a dialogue
00:48:51Near the end of Fifth Column
00:48:53Like in the 90s
00:48:54When we were touring in the States
00:48:56More often than not
00:48:57We had more of a dialogue
00:48:58With people who were younger
00:48:59So we all of a sudden
00:49:02Became, came into our own
00:49:03As older sisters
00:49:04Of kids who were odd
00:49:20And we were talking about
00:49:20And we were talking about
00:49:21And we were talking about
00:49:21And we were talking about
00:49:21And we were talking about
00:49:25And we were talking about
00:49:59Really, the gay punk community was what Riot Grrrl sprung out of.
00:50:03I mean, it would not have existed without it.
00:50:08And we felt very much a part of that scene, and we felt like it wasn't called Riot Grrrl, really.
00:50:15It was, like, people in their apartments doing things.
00:50:17It became Riot Grrrl later, like much later, like after it had already happened.
00:50:22Like, we weren't calling it that.
00:50:24We felt like we were part of the hardcore scene.
00:50:27Well, there wouldn't have been the Riot Grrrl movement without G.B. Jen's 5th Column.
00:50:33I feel like that's sort of the amazing relationship that happened between Bikini Kill and 5th Column, and G.B.
00:50:42specifically,
00:50:43was this sort of being inspired and being inspired enough to participate.
00:50:50We didn't see 5th Column until pretty late.
00:50:51I think it was, like, 94, 95, 96, like somewhere in there.
00:50:55And it was, like, this whole legendary group of girls, women.
00:51:02We'd seen the movies, read the zines, artwork, like the whole thing, totally obsessed.
00:51:08And then they came to town, and they were absolutely lovely.
00:51:12Saw them play.
00:51:15And I just remember thinking, why are we the ones who get all the attention?
00:51:20They're such a better band than we are.
00:51:23So even though 5th Column, I think, was an influence for these girls,
00:51:29they never sort of, unfortunately, I think, got, like, fit into the movement in a certain kind of way.
00:51:36So I think that some of the groups that came after them and were influenced by them
00:51:39actually got a lot more media attention than they did.
00:51:42And, like, in terms of the mainstream, like, our fame or attention level eclipsed what they were doing.
00:51:49And I think largely it was because we were straight or perceived as straight,
00:51:53which was always really frustrating when the people who were the real kind of originators of something get erased.
00:52:10Peed after me. Are we gonna look for mummy?
00:52:13Are we gonna look for mummy?
00:52:15Don't talk to me about your mummy.
00:52:18All women are bitches, repeat. All women are bitches.
00:52:22I love the movie Kathy's Curse, and there's an evil little girl in that,
00:52:25and she says one of her famous lines is, um, all women are bitches.
00:52:29She used to go around saying, all women are bitches, all the time,
00:52:32and any situation that demanded it.
00:52:34And so, um, I was like, wow, I can't believe she's saying that.
00:52:39It kind of shocked me at first.
00:52:40I was like...
00:52:41And she had gotten it from this movie called Kathy's Curse,
00:52:45where this young, it was a Canadian movie too, a fabulous movie,
00:52:49where this young girl is possessed by a dead spirit that she finds in the attic,
00:52:56and she totally turns against all women,
00:52:58and she, uh, and she just calls all women are bitches,
00:53:02and she goes around saying, all women are bitches.
00:53:07What's going on here?
00:53:10Kathy, answer me.
00:53:11So I went in to our practice space, and I said,
00:53:14okay, now we're writing a song called All Women Are Bitches,
00:53:17and everyone's mouth just kind of fell open, like, what? Are you crazy?
00:53:39We were supposed to go and play this festival that they had called Kumbaya,
00:53:44that was supposed to be, um, like AIDS charities and everything.
00:53:49It made us a little nervous, uh, to do mainstream, but, you know,
00:53:54the thing is, um, you kind of can't think about it.
00:53:57It's kind of like getting a booster shot.
00:53:59This is Fifth Column.
00:54:09We saw the outcome.
00:54:10You know, well, if we do this, we'll get more shows,
00:54:12or we'll get more money to pay our record debt.
00:54:17But when we went on the show, they said, okay, you can't play that song.
00:54:21So, of course, then we had to play the song, because, you know,
00:54:24they told us not to, so we absolutely had to play it.
00:54:26Because it was being broadcast live, so they couldn't actually edit us out,
00:54:31and we knew that, and they knew that, so they said, no,
00:54:33you can't play that song, and don't play it.
00:54:36And so, then we did play it, and they were furious, and they said,
00:54:39okay, you're never going to be on, um, much music again.
00:54:43And they never did play any of our videos after that.
00:54:46But then, Melody Maker made it the single of the week.
00:54:50So then it got all this publicity and everything, and, um,
00:54:55and then we were, um, rock stars for a week.
00:55:00Because I remember there was a point with Fifth Column
00:55:03where they were just being taunted in the music press
00:55:07and just saying, oh, they're so amazing, they're so great.
00:55:09Like, when Melody Maker and New Music Express
00:55:12was writing about them every week at some point, you know?
00:55:15Then it started getting media attention to what was going on,
00:55:19and they would write up one of the bands, or they would, you know,
00:55:22review one of the fanzines.
00:55:24And I think that actually started to cause a certain amount of difficulty
00:55:27in the scene.
00:55:29Every time we had an encounter with the media
00:55:31was just, like, a matter of what would they try and co-op this time?
00:55:35What would they change?
00:55:36What would they misquote?
00:55:37What would they, uh, take liberties with?
00:55:40So that, you know, when you see yourself in the media,
00:55:44it would just be something totally different
00:55:46than what you'd started out to do.
00:55:57...
00:56:04Make your life in our blast
00:56:08Every night is burning flags
00:56:11There's a talk show called Magic Man
00:56:14My brother's jealous, all forgets she should use you down
00:56:18Donna
00:56:21Donna
00:56:44That's a lot of the mainstream, they try to like dangle a little carrot to get people interested.
00:56:48So I completely agree with why G.B. Jones and Carolyn and Beverly didn't want to like, they weren't going
00:56:54to like have a carrot dangle in front of them.
00:56:57They decided to like, fuck that shit.
00:57:02The assumption was that we would, you know, do what every other group does and kind of just become part
00:57:09of the system, part of the music industry.
00:57:13A lot of people didn't want to get famous. Getting famous didn't seem to be a kind of goal you
00:57:18wanted to pursue.
00:57:19I mean, you know, getting famous was kind of selling out.
00:57:26It's funny because we did talk about those things, but honestly, like, you know, we stuck out like a sore
00:57:31thumb anyways.
00:57:32We were so clearly not in alignment. We didn't look like we were, you know, the normal people who were
00:57:39the usual crew who would be on television. So, yeah.
00:57:45I never really got the impression that Fifth Column sold out. Gloria saw to that.
00:57:51I think Caroline could have been, you know, perfectly happy just moving past the college indie circuit and getting into
00:57:58a bigger realm, even just to communicate with more people.
00:58:03And I know, I think for myself, I would very much, the idea of just being able to make a
00:58:09better income and do what I like doing, that was, that was, I would have loved to do that.
00:59:13When I left Fifth Column, it was really different because it didn't feel as innocent as it once was. Things
00:59:22started to feel more serious.
00:59:24I went into the whole project with a kind of a different idea in mind of what I wanted to
00:59:30do.
00:59:32Because, you know, we weren't going to be running around with guns, creating riots and trying to change the world
00:59:40that way, our whole method of trying to affect a kind of a change was to be, introduce these really
00:59:49subversive elements into a culture that we were in opposition to.
00:59:55That was a large part of what Fifth Column was about. Sabotage, subversion, and a struggle for power.
01:00:04Fifth Column, to me, was actually more of an activity or a group of workers working together, more so than
01:00:14it was a band. So Fifth Column was a tool in some sense.
01:00:18Well, you know, I don't think there were many structures that would have left standing if we had our way.
01:00:23We really did want to change the world.
01:00:26So economic structures and political structures, all the rigid boundaries around who you could be and who you couldn't be
01:00:34according to your economic status or your sexual preference or your gender identity.
01:00:39The real world kind of sucks. But the world we created didn't suck. So if you can exist in that
01:00:47world, and I'm going to piggyback that with the movies that were made during that time, that were really to
01:00:54me now really monolith because they created their own world and their own party and their own laws and their
01:01:02own ethics and their own guilds.
01:01:06And it was a world that was not related to a real world. It was a world of happiness and
01:01:11acceptance and ridicule.
01:01:19And then it was over. And then that's the last thing we've ever heard of us. No, no. And then
01:01:25we put out our album. And then we went on tour. And that was the story.
01:01:30Is there more that you wanted to know?
01:01:43Is there more that you wanted to know?
01:02:15I I
01:02:17I
01:02:17I
01:02:22What
01:02:24I
01:02:25I
01:02:28I
01:02:29I
01:02:30I
01:02:30In the depths
01:02:52Water diseases
01:02:55Water diseases
01:02:59Reasons and conditions, critical condition of control.
01:03:22List of causes.
01:03:46Good night.
01:03:46Good night.
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