- 7 hours ago
With Venezuela rejecting the court's jurisdiction and Guyana defending its sovereignty, the outcome could reshape borders, resources, and regional stability.
We're joined by Guyanese international relations expert Dr. Raymond Mark Kirton to break down what's at stake and what comes next.
We're joined by Guyanese international relations expert Dr. Raymond Mark Kirton to break down what's at stake and what comes next.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:15tonight on beyond the headlines with venezuela rejecting the court's jurisdiction and guayana
00:22defending its sovereignty the outcome could reshape borders resources and regional stability
00:28we're joined by guyanese international relations expert dr raymond mark curtain to break down
00:33what's at stake and what comes next dr curtain let me thank you so much for agreeing to join us
00:39this evening you're most welcome and thank you for the opportunity to join you excellent so i have
00:46like about 15 questions so let's get straight into it so guayana says the case before the icg um the
00:54case is what is in fact before the icg and should be settled legally but venezuela is rejecting the
01:00court as we heard earlier today if one side refuses the referee is international law actually meaningful
01:10well one could argue here immediately that the international court of justice
01:18indicated its jurisdiction in this issue on more than one occasion as a matter of fact twice the
01:26venezuelan authorities indicated to the court that it had no it had no jurisdiction and the court
01:34basically on on both occasions indicated quite clearly that venezuela is a member of the united
01:42nations and is bound by the treaty is governing it the issue however is compliance with the judgment
01:53and it would take the united nations security council to intervene whether or when there's an issue related
02:03to compliance so i think that international law requires that states parties to the united nations
02:12conventions comply with decisions of its court the international court of justice even though on two
02:20occasions the venezuelans said they won but today here they are before the same court that they argue
02:28has no jurisdiction so let's be blunt dr curtain does venezuela have any credible legal claim to the
02:36ester quibble region at this stage or is it purely political pressure well we have to we have to go
02:43back in this street in some ways because in 1899 an armature award which venezuela and british guyana
02:53on great Britain on behalf of british guyana clearly indicated that it was full final and perfect
03:00and in 1905 the the mixed commission which comprised both the british and venezuela agreed that that was
03:12that agreement was final so it was not until maybe 60 years later that venezuela decided as a result of
03:22a
03:22a posthumous letter by that by a secretary a legal uh luminary but a secretary to the tribunal indicated that
03:32there was some mis uh adventure one might suggest or some collusion so you you see where there's no real
03:43evidence no credible evidence being presented by venezuela all they're talking about that there was some
03:51collusion among some of the some of the arbitrators now basically what we saw in 1897 more after the
04:00treaty of washington that established the the the tribunal we saw where venezuela agreed as a matter of fact
04:08there were arbiters who were nominated and supported by venezuela and were part of the actual framing
04:20of the award and so to say that you know that venezuela has a case i think is rather far
04:27-fetched
04:29so um just going back to your initial point about the international court of justice let's just say
04:37the icg just does rule in guyana's favor what mechanisms actually exist to enforce that ruling on
04:45country like venezuela well in my respectful view i think you have to go to the i call it the
04:55the world
04:56opinion the international court of the world opinion and also structurally to the united nations security
05:05council because here you have a country that says in upfront that we won't accept we because they have
05:14known because the icg has no jurisdiction so we have to do much as guyana at this stage very early
05:22ensure
05:23one that we uh we get the kind of support the international support from agencies from countries
05:32understanding that venezuela's case when it's and i think it will be when it's finally adjudicated
05:41in venezuela's favor that we have the kind of support mechanisms the alliances which is necessary to
05:49pressure venezuela into that acceptance at the same time we will have to ensure that we have very robust
05:55approaches to the united nations security council to ensure that they put pressure on venezuela to accept
06:03the judgment the judgment because not just the the united nations the secretary general in deliberate judgment
06:12sent this case to the international court of justice after a series of efforts by the good office of process
06:22to come to some kind of arrangement which could see venezuela agreeing that the 1899 hour to the war which
06:32they had
06:33the earlier two for over 60 years was valid it was still valid so in my view i think we
06:41have as guyana
06:42immediately to start upon a more robust diplomatic effort and at the same time to ensure that the united
06:49nations is fully aware fully apprised you know to ensure that there's no there's no pushback
06:58in relation to the judgment so dr goodson let's talk about escalation and security um of course this
07:05comes on the backdrop of the guyana defense force issuing a statement earlier today um confirming that
07:13one of its patrols encountered hostile fire twice yesterday afternoon while conducting border security
07:21operations in region seven both incidents i'm just reading directly from the statement both incidents
07:28occurred in the kuyuni river i hope i'm pronouncing it correctly at approximately 4 10 pm um at known
07:35locations on each occasion the patrol escorting civilian vessels responded in accordance with operational
07:40procedures and safely maneuvered out of the area without injury to anyone how real is that threat of
07:49escalation are we talking about diplomatic tensions or genuine risk of military confrontation
07:57well i think it's both when one looks at the history and the levels of escalation that guyana has
08:04suffered has been exposed to over the years starting from 1966 when venezuela took guyana's half of the
08:14and coco island which was given to guyana which was awarded to guyana as part of the 1899 arbitral war
08:22and since then we've had a series of maneuvers by venezuela culminating in you know uh the last year
08:35naval vessels approached the fpsos the floating production ships arguing that they were in venezuelan waters
08:44in venezuelan waters we've had that we've had the seizure of fishing vessels over the years
08:50last year we had attacks and serious injuries military personnel by venezuelans in civilian clothes
09:01and we had you know there's a group called the syndicatos and some tell me that they are you know
09:08in reports are that they are uh affiliated with some officials in venezuela so we see aggression levels
09:18of aggression and they're not they're not letting up and this one right in the middle or in the midst
09:24of
09:25um they have the the hearing at the icg is quite worrying and one could argue here that we have
09:34to
09:35guyana will have to perhaps at this stage attempt to upgrade its military assets you know there's
09:44the arithmetic of war has now changed we've seen where uh the iranians with fifteen thousand dollar
09:51um drones are taking down interceptors worth three million u.s dollars so we have to look at all of
09:58the hope with as a small state we can protect our sovereignty and territorial integrity and that would
10:06also mean alliances not only with united states but with other states that are close to us we've seen
10:14brazil for example has consistently argued that borders which have been juridically settled are not
10:26viable and this inviolability is one of their mantras now dr hitan i i just want to interject there a
10:35little bit to move on to another point specifically because time is just going so quickly um just inform our
10:42viewers that the kuyuni river it is in the larger essequibo region but that brings me to our next
10:49question is guyana adequately prepared military and diplomatically if this dispute intensifies
10:57well as i say i always say that the policy is our first line of defense
11:04and we have to ensure that we continue very strongly with our diplomatic efforts at the same time
11:12we have although small military cannot compete with venezuela but we have to ensure that our defense is
11:19there and therefore you know when you the smart state will have to protect itself even if it relies on
11:27later uh the support of its allies and how much let's talk about oil now how much is venezuela's posture
11:37driven by ghana's energy boom well as you may be aware ghana now produces 900 000 barrels of oil per
11:48day
11:49and i believe that ever since the maduro era there was venezuelans move in a spurious claim
12:00to argue that even our maritime space is theirs and we hadn't in the past there was never no there
12:07was
12:07never any kind of maritime you know clean in one before the land boundary 74 percent of our land was
12:17cleaned by venezuela but what we saw after the the oil boom and after the discovery and and production we
12:25saw venezuela shift to all kinds of new engagements they talk about decreasing that we shaped the maritime
12:34space even as far across trinidad and then into into sorynam and as far as mainly the eastern caribbean
12:42well it's curious very you know a situation in which the issue has become maybe a concern
12:51that a small state can emerge with you know a little bit of with a new sector that could that
12:58could
12:59benefit its people shifting now to the regional response where does caricom stand in practical
13:05terms and beyond statements has the region done enough to support guyana well i would say that there
13:13has not been a strong and uncritical support for guyana we've seen some fluctuations in the support but
13:21by and large and quite recently i've seen where there is a statement out of caricom that you know there
13:29is
13:29that level of support um we have recognized that they are states with national interests which have kind of
13:38wavered and remember that petro caribbean for example which is an initiative which was started by uh
13:47president hugo chavez had benefited several of the states and we saw where there were some interests
13:56that were directed in in that to venezuela but i believe that the time has come especially with the
14:06in the absence now of petro caribbean that we that as a region we have to do more than just
14:12talking
14:13about support from for guyana we perhaps have to look to uh establish or to consider at least
14:21for energy energy security in our region perhaps establishing petrocarica with guyana
14:28guyana's oil sarnam's oil and using trinidad's refinery which would bring i believe a new level of
14:36integration and and and and maybe support energy security in our region so it brings it brings us i
14:44believe to a point where caricom could remove or could reduce some of that acrimony that seems to be
14:50in our midst and replace it with a new level of integration at least considering utilizing these
14:58resources both of guyana and and uh serena and also the refinery in trinidad to move this process along
15:07so let's just you know and to bring and to bring a closer a higher level of integration let's just
15:13say
15:13this dispute destabilizes guyana what does that mean for regional uh for the regional economy and security
15:24well as you know this is not an issue that this is not an issue that only has an impact
15:32on guyana
15:33because what we've seen over the years is that perhaps lanes sea lanes could be impacted you know
15:43if we destabilize we can see you know uh higher costs of imports across the region
15:51so it can have an impact on on on the regional economies and also i believe the regional security
15:59could be impacted especially with you know um with higher levels of instability through movement
16:08which could have you know all sorts of implications you know including the use of the maritime space
16:15you know the the the air space could be impacted so it has i believe all kinds of implications
16:24for the region as a whole moving up moving now moving now dr ketan to accountability venezuelan officials
16:32um the acting president has been wearing a pin depicting a map that includes guyana's
16:40este quibo region as part of venezuela it's a move that guyana says could be interpreted as others
16:47tolerating or legitimizing that claim during official engagements but let's put it
16:54bluntly does this raise a concern that other neighboring states including trinidad and tobago
16:58who um which is also on that pin that map that venezuela claims to be their territory
17:06could we one day find ourselves facing a similar territorial dispute well first of all in relation
17:14to that map one could argue here that guyana has to continue pressuring all of its allies and the
17:25international court to remove that map which and to replace it with a globally recognized and accepted
17:35map of ghana which is 83 000 square miles intact now we this brooch diplomacy if not in itself i
17:47mean you
17:47you can't stop anybody from wearing whatever they want but basically i find it objectionable when you can
17:55go to calicom state or any state with a map that gives the impression that this that this is venezuela's
18:06a new territory it's called uh guiana is the quiver which basically venezuela has never
18:17never nor it's it's it's it's colonizes spain never ever had any kind of movement any kind of of of
18:31territorial presence in the sqrib and now you can see a map with and interestingly a governor of sqrib being
18:42elected by venezuela i believe that the international community has to recognize the officially you know
18:50the official map of ghana and return it it's quite a place among maps of the world dr clinton before
18:57we
18:57move to the tnt aspect what should have barbados's prime minister for instance mia motley done
19:06well i think that in all in any international visit i think that there's some protocols which are
19:13established even before then and i think that um they recognizing that it was a visit by a venezuelan
19:23president i believe that there could have been some uh prior protocol arrangements to ensure that that
19:31didn't take place but having said that i would i'm of the view that as the queridian community character
19:40we have to be strong in in in our support and that uh demonstration of you know of of strength
19:52by um by by demcie rodriguez indicating quite clearly that this is ours and we do it i mean that's
20:00a demonstration of a demonstration of to my mind a level of arrogance but once again we have to return
20:08to our brothers and sisters in the caribbean and let them recognize the need for an unequivocal
20:16level of support for guyana map or no map so moving now to tnt's perspective should
20:25are there concerns i should ask that trinidad and tobago could one day find itself facing a similar
20:33similar territorial pressure well i would say that um when you look at trinidad the issue here is not as
20:45it's not as as of concerning as yet as guyana's is because there's an active claim on on guyana but
20:53i don't
20:54see um in in the present you know geopolitical conditions any movement to do a claim on trinidad
21:01by venezuela especially given you know the new u.s presence and other um comparing arguments that could
21:10be advanced but is it because we are not as energy rich as guyana is right now there's no reason
21:18on to want to claim to be one one factor but as you know um there is the issue of
21:27gas and and what
21:29could what could develop but i feel that in short and medium term trinidad may not be impacted as
21:37structurally as guyana is and as as as aggressively as guyana is at this stage dr kutan what does the
21:46realistic and game look like well for me i would say guyana's 83 000 square miles must remain intact
21:57and the end game has to be as i mentioned diplomatic pressure strong diplomatic approaches by guyana to
22:07institutions to countries and also a very firm engagement sustained engagement with united nations
22:20and also states of the region to ensure that we get and the hemisphere generally ensure that we get
22:29you know that that concentric circle of support that is necessary so i'm asking if venezuela continues to
22:36ignore international rulings and concert what consequences if any can they face well i would
22:43like to say that well first of all i would say that they have they have to be increased pressure
22:49globally
22:50from those who are who recognize that boundaries and borders which have been juridically settled are
22:59inviolate i would say that most of the states of the region of the region and globally accept that
23:08and i i am of the view that those countries will apply hopefully the kind of pressure which is necessary
23:17to ensure compliance by venezuela if that is not the case we have to move to the next level and
23:24that is to
23:24ensure that as a small state we get military support from other from other allies that could be in a
23:34sense
23:34come to our support our military support now some might argue here that you know we have something
23:41called the regional security system the rss and while the rss may not be you know well endowed in
23:52terms of military assets i think as a deterrent with the broadening out of the rss to include trinidad
23:59and and jamaica which have substantial you know in the concept of the caribbean substantial military
24:06experience but we may have those as a deterrence force dr kutan final question 20 seconds who has more to
24:14lose in this standoff venezuela or guayana well i would say that when you look at when you look at
24:22uh
24:23you know the pressure that we under we want to ensure that our territory remains intact and we want to
24:30ensure that as a as an emerging petrol state we want to ensure that the oil and gas which we
24:39are now
24:39acquiring in the new sector could continue to benefit our people so we want to ensure that we are not
24:45using it not that must be that might be something that is i think in the mind that is something
24:52that
24:52is the main the bargain is dr kutan thank you very much for joining us as the legal battle unfolds
24:58and
24:58tensions simmer the question remains what does this dispute mean not just for guayana and venezuela but for the
25:06stability of the entire region many thanks to you dr rayman mark kutan for your time and of course your
25:13expertise your insights i'm urvashi to worry ripnarine this has been beyond the headlines thank you dr kutan
25:19thank you to those at home for viewing good night disha's next with more news
Comments