00:14Well, the origin of the book is curious, well, it's not curious, it's insolent, because
00:21it never occurred. What happened, the origin of the book, it took place, let's say, two years ago,
00:29in the Salon del Libro of Turin, I'll tell you about the same book, the Salon del Libro of Turin
00:34is like the Filbo Italian, the great literary event in Italy, I was writing books after
00:41an event, and my editor told me, look, there is a person from the Vatican who wants to talk
00:49to you. I, naturally, I missed it, and, well, I ended up signing, I went to see that person
00:59that resulted in the director of the Vatican editorial, which is called Lorenzo Fazzini,
01:05which is then a person of the book, a very important person of the book, by the way, because
01:11he has been accompanied in many places and he has established a curious relationship with
01:14Don Quixote and Sancho Panza between the two, because he is a pretty cool person.
01:20And very intelligent, well, the case is that the Pope Francis viaja to Mongolia,
01:30at the end of August, beginning of September, we are in the year 2023, viaja to Mongolia,
01:38a country of Buddhist tradition, with less than 1.500 Catholics, and we thought that maybe
01:46you would like to be interested in it, you would like to accompany it, we would like to
01:50facilitate the trip, we would like to open the Vatican's doors to you to speak with
01:55who you want to see, see what you want to see, and finally, write what you want to see,
02:02also, with absolute freedom, a novel, a essay, what you want to see, and added, well, this
02:10added a thing that is a fact, this the Church has never done it.
02:14It is to say, the Vatican has never opened the doors to anyone, to anyone, to a writer,
02:20to write about what there really is there. And so, we think that maybe you would like to
02:28participate in this inédito experiment. And I, the first words that I remember to have said it,
02:34I heard it with perplexity, as you can imagine, but the first words that I remember to have
02:42pronounced it are, but, you know, do you know that I am a type of danger?
02:48They say that no, that Francis said that no, that in reality I said that, but, you know,
02:51have turned out you crazy or what? And with reason. First, because I am a writer.
02:58And a writer can not only tell the truth. This is a novel, but it is a novel without fiction.
03:05There is absolutely nothing invented. And, therefore, I was going to tell the truth.
03:09And, therefore, they were doing an exercise of courage or temerity, according to what you see,
03:16opening the doors of the Vatican to someone who, and this is the second reason why I said it,
03:21that is ateo. I am ateo and anticlerical. The Pope Francis only is anticlerical, but I am ateo and anticlerical.
03:36Yes, the word periferia form part of the thought of the Pope. It is very important.
03:43It is disputed with other words the primacy of the papado.
03:47It is to say, what is the word that define the papado? Alguns say that periferia.
03:51For me, no. For me, the word that define the papado is sinodality,
03:54which is a word that no one understands and that I try to explain in the book.
03:57But, yes, the word periferia is fundamental, because the Pope has a vision misionera of the Iglesia.
04:05In fact, he wanted to be a missionary, but he could not be a missionary because of the health.
04:11And he thinks that, with reason, that the Iglesia has to go to the periphery, to the extremists.
04:20How do they make the missionary?
04:21For the Pope, the misioneros encarnate better than anyone, the Christianism.
04:30The Christianism of Christ.
04:32The missionary is the one who encarnate the idea of Christ.
04:38The one who encarnate the Christianism autentic, in the sense that they are people who do like Christ.
04:44He abandonates everything.
04:46And, like his apostles, he abandonates everything.
04:49They are the gods of God.
04:51The gods of God of the book is Francisco, because he put his name on Francisco de Asís,
04:58and Francisco de Asís was called the gods of God.
05:00But the book is full of the gods and can read it like the gods of the madness.
05:03And, of course, the Christianism of Christ is in the periphery.
05:16Not in the places where he triumphed.
05:19Italy, Spain, the great Catholic countries.
05:22But precisely where he triumphed.
05:24And there is where he is.
05:25Where is the Iglesia, the renovation of the Iglesia.
05:30If I have to say in what he consists of the papado of Francisco,
05:37the essential of the papado of Francisco,
05:41I would say that it consists of an attempt to return to the Iglesia primitive.
05:46In this sense, yes, we can talk about a revolution.
05:49But the revolution is not the one who proposes it.
05:52The one who proposes it is the Vaticano II,
05:55which is the great concilion that changes,
05:57or, better than I say,
05:58pretends, ambition to change the Iglesia.
06:01And the change, in essence, is that.
06:02It is a return to the primitive Christianism.
06:04It is to say, the Christianism of Christ.
06:06It is to say, the idea is that the Iglesia has been perverted
06:11with a series of fundamental elements.
06:12It is the clericalism, the constantinism,
06:15it is to say, the union with the power, etc.
06:17The verticality, the hierarchy, the hierarchization, etc.
06:22And we have to return to the Iglesia of Christ.
06:24And this is what he learned from Francisco
06:26from all the points of view.
06:36This is a book that speaks of humility.
06:40And I think that is the fundamental virtue of the Christianism and the non-Christianism.
06:47It is what he thought Chesterton,
06:51a fundamental writer for the Pope and for anyone.
06:54And I think that that is one of the fundamental messages of Christ.
07:00And the testament of my mother.
07:03Also, at the end of the book, my mother speaks of that.
07:06In his last moment of lucidity.
07:09She says that she has always been a person humilde,
07:13that she has always been a little less than others.
07:15And she says, you know what I tell you, Javi?
07:18That the humility comes to account.
07:21No one can say better what, in my opinion,
07:25what said Francisco de Asís and what said Christ.
07:30And Bergoglio.
07:32Bergoglio.
07:32Bergoglio ha intentado,
07:35porque intentaba volver a la Iglesia primitiva,
07:39poner la humildad en el centro de la Iglesia.
07:42Si tú me preguntas si era una persona humilde,
07:45mi respuesta es que creo que no lo era.
07:49Pero que luchó a muerte por serlo.
07:51Eso es lo que define a Bergoglio, en mi opinión.
07:54El hecho de ser un hombre que luchó a muerte consigo mismo.
08:01Un hombre muy consciente de sus propios defectos,
08:04de sus propias flaquezas.
08:08Entre ellas creo que estaba una cierta tendencia autoritaria,
08:12una cierta tendencia a veces a la soberbia,
08:16y que luchó a muerte contra ellos,
08:19contra sí mismo para llegar a ser el mejor que podía ser.
08:22Y esto es lo que realmente le hace humano.
08:24Esto es lo que le hace humano.
08:25Y que además no lo ocultó, sino que lo exhibió.
08:36El discernimiento viene a ser una forma de conocimiento
08:42que involucra tanto lo racional como lo espiritual.
08:49Eso viene a ser el discernimiento.
08:52No es solo racional, ni es solo espiritual.
08:55Esas ambas cosas al mismo tiempo.
08:56Y Spadaro, que es jesuita,
08:59y que es uno de los intelectuales más próximos al Papa,
09:02considera que eso es una cosa que ha aportado Bergoglio a la Iglesia.
09:08Yo tengo mis dudas.
09:10Tengo mis dudas.
09:12Spadaro, insisto, es jesuita.
09:14Y Spadaro ve en el Papa a un jesuita antes que nada.
09:18Yo tengo mis dudas.
09:21Yo creo que Bergoglio, sin la menor duda, es un jesuita.
09:27Se formó como jesuita.
09:28Su mentalidad es la de jesuita.
09:31Pero cuando llega el papado lleva 20 años
09:34sin tener ninguna relación con los jesuitas.
09:37De hecho, yo me pregunto, no lo sé, me pregunto.
09:42Él tiene una batalla a muerte con los jesuitas.
09:47Y acaba perdiendo esa batalla.
09:50Y acaba siendo exiliado tras la derrota.
09:55Y llega su momento más oscuro.
09:58Tiene 50 y pico de años.
10:00Ha sido derrotado en sus ambiciones, en todo.
10:05Lo mandan a Córdoba, a un asilo.
10:09Y ha perdido todo.
10:11Y ahí, en ese momento, nace un nuevo Bergoglio para mí.
10:17Es decir, el peor momento de Bergoglio
10:19es el mejor momento de Bergoglio.
10:21El peor momento de Cristo es el mejor momento de Cristo.
10:25El peor momento de Cristo es la cruz.
10:26Pero sin la cruz no existiría el cristianismo.
10:28El peor momento de Bergoglio es ese momento de exilio.
10:31Terrible.
10:32Es un hombre acabado.
10:33Se acabó su carrera.
10:34Se acabó todo.
10:35Y ahí es cuando nace el Bergoglio que va a ser el Papa.
10:39Nuestro peor momento, a menudo, es nuestro mejor momento.
10:43El momento de la mayor oscuridad es el momento de la luz.
10:48A eso alude la cita de este libro, que es de Fauner.
10:53Y dice, más o menos, más allá de la derrota,
10:57hay una victoria de la que el triunfador no la sabe.
11:00Es exactamente la historia de Cristo, la historia de Bergoglio
11:03y probablemente la historia de todos.
11:04Música
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