- 2 days ago
Ángela María Buitrago, la nueva jefa de cartera, confirma que este semestre radicará las reformas a la justicia. Prevé una discusión delicada ante la sociedad sobre un nuevo modelo judicial menos punitivista y más restaurativo. ¿Estamos dispuestos a comprender que algunos delitos deben eliminarse?, pregunta en entrevista. Entretanto, con sus asesores está confeccionando una parte crucial del marco jurídico de la paz total.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:07Hello everyone, welcome to Interviews El Espectador. Today is the doctor Angela
00:12María Huitrago. She is the new Minister of Justice since since a month. We are just in
00:18the stage of the government of Gustavo Petro, and it is perhaps one of the key moments for
00:23starting to impulsify these reforms with which this administration wants to push the justice,
00:29renovate it, and as we talked about in the past few months, perhaps to take many talanqueras
00:34with which I came. So, well, what better fuente than the new Minister of Justice. How are you?
00:39How are you?
00:40Good, how are you?
00:41All very well here, and well, we have just had a very tragic month, but what do you have
00:49asked the President to you in specific and that you could tell us about the minister, what
00:55he has asked in specific? I think that within the framework, in particular, what has asked
01:01all ministers is that it is to comply with the framework of peace, that it is to comply with
01:06the National Development Plan and that it is to comply with everything that means structuring
01:15humanization and life in Colombia. I believe that that is a directrice general. There has not been
01:20a specific orientation, at least with me, and from that point of view, it is to comply with all the
01:27expectations that we have about a project that has been consolidated on the social, the territory,
01:34the life in particular of the Colombian people.
01:38And, let's say, that the discourse that has been brought since two years, has been a key point?
01:46Because now, it seems to me that the Minister of Justice is committed for many months with many
01:51initiatives legislative initiatives. Do you have a push for the eradication of projects like this?
01:57No, the truth is, he just asked if they were ready the projects, I said that no, and the
02:04thing in particular is that there are other projects that are ready, like the project of the
02:09Ley Agraria, which is the initiative of the Cartera Agricultural that Coadyuve and
02:15the Ministry of Justice, that will be presented soon. There are many projects of justice, like the
02:23statute of agriculture, the statute of agriculture, the particular reform of labor, the pension,
02:29all those are justices, because they play fundamental aspects in terms of the elements that
02:35have to do with access, guarantees, procedures. But, obviously, in the framework of the
02:42Ministry of Justice, there are some projects that are also being implemented in company of the
02:47legislature, of the Court, of the Supreme Court, that are giving the final steps to be
02:53presented, because the consensus, for me, is fundamental. The articulation also means
02:58to be able to accompany initiatives, to be able to propose and that other people know the
03:04initiatives and opinion. And from that point of view, there are some very important elements that have to do with
03:11projects of justice interseccional justice, justice of what is called justice
03:18familiar, which have to do with reformas to the Código Procesal Penal, reformas in terms of
03:26the substantial and the carcelary. The idea is to take advantage of this first semester of the
03:32legislature, which is the second of the year, but what means to be able to eradicate in this
03:37semester all those projects.
03:38Of course, you know, you say so, and then you start to see, for those people who are not so
03:45close to the justice sector, that it is a very large sector, and we have a list that goes from
03:51the penal, the laboral, the legal medicine, and I want that in this conversation we go
03:57as far as parts, and starting with this renovation of the new carter, and starting with this idea of
04:06the constitution. And we know that any attempt by the legislature could start by the Ministry of Justice,
04:15the Ministry of Justice, which plante that first idea. That is, you have it
04:19between the plans of the semester.
04:20No, and I think that it is quite clear the issue of the Constitution, even the Ministries of
04:26the Ministry of Justice has been quite front in the issue in particular. We consider that
04:33the mention of a reform or a reform of the constitution is impossible. And now the issue, from the point
04:40of view
04:41of what he said the same President, it also means that it is to look at the elements that could
04:47aglutinar a society in search of improvements for, not only access to justice, but also
04:55social rights and rights in general.
04:59Ministra, also in that work of looking for new laws for Colombia under the perspective of
05:07the government of Gustavo Petro, there is the framework of the total peace, and also
05:13the Ministry of Justice is going to play a very important role because it is basically the
05:19encargado of presenting that political piso jurídico on which conversations are going to have
05:24become a North. And many of us have talked about a point of view and that category, how could we
05:33fall into it? Do you think that that is possible and have thought of impulsing it in any way?
05:39Well, there is something that is important to tell you, and it is that the framework of the peace is
05:46a constitutional framework. Corresponde to a decision from many years ago, that never
05:52implemented it in a way, that, at the contrary, it has been delayed six years, that
05:57until now it begins to implement it from the point of view of the cumpliment of a
06:01constitutional framework, that that also implies generating also proposals in
06:07cumpliment of that framework of peace, that, among others, if you remember, that
06:12that began in 2017-2018. And on that, of course, the idea is to be compatible with the
06:21legal framework with a framework of peace that didn't exist when many laws were born. When you
06:26talk about a final point, the question is, what is the final point of view? And then you
06:32know that there is ordinary justice, transitional justice, there are two systems of
06:36transitional justice, justice and peace, and jurisdiction especial for the peace, which are
06:42marcas especiales where, since 2005, began to designate the way to accrue groups at the
06:50margin of the law. And, from that point of view, the first experience is under a
06:56presidential administration, in the year 2005. It has to do with all the paramilitarism
07:01of Colombia. In that law, which was the 975, also welcomed guerrillas. And, from that point of view, the
07:08special jurisdiction that was transitional, which is of justice and peace, has a
07:14special orbit within the legislature and with the special tribunals for justice and peace.
07:19When we talk about the final point, which I would like to understand, which is
07:23the final point for many people, because sometimes the question is if we are going to
07:26end with that transitional justice, if what we are going to see is a
07:30definition of justice and peace, I would like to say that justice and peace as
07:35the special jurisdiction for the peace, which is built in the process and in the
07:39framework of peace, which means to accrue to the FARC, in particular,
07:45well, what it has is a temporal framework. Justicia and peace
07:49dura 20 years, cumple the
07:52next year, its 20 years. The special jurisdiction for the peace
07:56has had a period of time, which is 10 years old, and over those
08:00elements I have 6 or 7, if my memory
08:02no me falla, there would be 3. But the
08:04thing, more than putting a point of
08:07final to those jurisdictions, is to understand
08:09if with that
08:11the peace in front of a
08:14state with armed armed conflict
08:17and with the existence of multiple groups
08:20that are occupying
08:22in this moment the territories. The President
08:24the President
08:25the Minister of Defense
08:27the Minister of Interior
08:29and the Minister of Justice
08:31have reiterated
08:32elements particular
08:33about the issue of how
08:35these groups have grown
08:36and how
08:37from
08:38the first
08:39moment
08:40and from the
08:41the issue of the
08:42framework of peace,
08:43that is to say
08:44since 2016
08:45these groups have increased
08:45this is not of the
08:48two years
08:49these groups are
08:50that have a clear
08:51establishment
08:51clear
08:52in the
08:52society
08:53and that here is
08:55where we say that if the
08:56framework of peace is
08:56to be able to
08:58achieve peace in
08:59Colombia, it would be
09:00to look at who
09:01are
09:02who are
09:03who are
09:04who are
09:06who are
09:06who are
09:07who are
09:08who are
09:09who are
09:13who are
09:13who are
09:15who are
09:17who are
09:39the
09:40the
09:41the
09:42the
09:42the
09:46the
09:46the government still exploring options and in such a way to reach the possibility
09:52of a law of submission?
09:54We are in that point.
09:55Look, the law of submission was handed to Congress last year.
10:03The law of submission was an initial initiative of some groups,
10:08because we also have the framework that regulates the other groups,
10:11and it is clear that even with the last sentence of the Constitutional Court,
10:16it is clear that the paramilitarism has a clear way, which is justice and peace.
10:21But that law, until I have been aware and verified,
10:28it was not a debate, it simply went through the general statute,
10:34but on that basis they are exploring ways to know if there are regulatory marks
10:40that can understand some groups, as it is so,
10:42and others, which I have always said, are groups amorphous,
10:46which are very difficult in the jurisdictions that have been proposed,
10:53for two reasons.
10:54or because they do not comply with the formal requirements that we call ourselves,
10:57or because they are outside the temporal framework of those laws.
11:01But we are exploring paths, and obviously, you know,
11:05this is a central topic that has to do with the Comisionado of Paz
11:09and with the Minister of Interior.
11:11However, the Ministry of Justice is supporting on the issue of working
11:16on the basis of possibilities and recommendations in the juridical framework,
11:23and on that, of course, we are working.
11:25We hope to deliver some proposals soon to help us,
11:31but while also, it is important to say,
11:34that we are exploring, as many groups have been asked,
11:37and among those, the Gulf Clan,
11:39they were the ones who asked to sit at a table,
11:42because to be able to dismovilize,
11:44you have to know first if people are willing to accept the conditions
11:50and to generate marks that comply with the peace agreement.
11:53Just talking about the characteristics of the groups,
11:59we have built, until the moment,
12:02that the government has a marked division,
12:05for those who have some kind of political ideals
12:11and for those who don't be marked in this category.
12:15Are you still thinking in that way?
12:17I heard that in the last few days,
12:19that it seems that now they want to deliver
12:25exclusive parameters for each group,
12:28depending on how they consider them.
12:30Do you think the division will continue to be political,
12:34if not political?
12:35I think that that is a division that is in the legal framework.
12:41The laws were built as they were built,
12:43they are talking about armed groups,
12:48groups organized,
12:49groups rurales,
12:51that is already in the legal division.
12:54From that point of view,
12:56the characteristics of each group are different,
12:59and you can't homologize
13:01a armed armed or organized
13:03to a delinquency organized,
13:06or a GAOMIL,
13:08or even if we start to see all the categories
13:11that there are groups,
13:13each group has a particularity.
13:16Let's say that there are some much more concrete
13:19from the international law,
13:20that among others,
13:21they know the rules that are applied
13:23from the judicial point of view,
13:27judicial point of view,
13:28from the operational point of view.
13:29There are others that are Colombian construction
13:31and from that context,
13:33we have to say where we are going to be.
13:37There are groups that have an ideology
13:40or have an ideology,
13:42but there are groups that don't have a ideology
13:44and that the considerations
13:47against these groups are very different
13:49to even the types of penalties
13:51that they can apply
13:53and on what basis of rights
13:55they can apply.
13:56All that means
13:57to have a clear way to say
14:29yes,
14:30will there be a prison for those who attend and are maximum responsible
14:35have a punitive punishment?
14:38In Transition Justice, we have to think that what we want to achieve is peace,
14:45and through that process, even you can see how in the time of Juan Manuel Santos
14:50discussed the issue of if there was a punitive prison,
14:54or if there was a prison or not,
14:56and there is a agreement that yes,
14:59it is working on a minimum of eight years
15:01for the people who accept,
15:05the comparecities that have been mobilized,
15:07but there is also a room of 20 years in the special jurisdiction for the Paz
15:12for people who do not accept.
15:14This is not easy.
15:16It is to say,
15:18work on the basis of the complexity of the conflict,
15:21the violence, the number of groups,
15:24the way you have to work from the legislation,
15:28the way you have to apply it.
15:30It is not the same working with a ordinary person
15:34that with a person who is in a transition system.
15:38So, when I talk about punitive,
15:43one has to be aware of that these frameworks
15:45have been created transitionally
15:48to generate a series of processes
15:54that allow the subject compare to the justice
15:58and be he the one who say what he did.
16:01Minister,
16:03we are talking about the issue of the cases,
16:05because we are making accounts,
16:08we have to bring people to prison,
16:11but in prison no one single person
16:14more,
16:15and in the centers of transit transit,
16:18which is supposed to be hours,
16:20and that are for sindicatos,
16:22we have people who have months and years,
16:25and people who have been condemned.
16:27And that I mention,
16:29because that is a grave problem
16:32that is from 1998,
16:35that the Ministry of Justice should be solved
16:38by order constitutional
16:41and that all that responsibility
16:43recae in the projects of the Ministry.
16:46So,
16:47what does that mean in terms of penitenciation?
16:51The assassination seems to be like
16:52the North,
16:53but what in specific does it bring us?
16:56I think we have to think in three levels,
16:58in the penitenciation and carcels.
17:01First,
17:01as you said,
17:03the assassination is historical.
17:05So,
17:05that is not the solution
17:06from the night to the morning.
17:07But,
17:08the legislative function is punitivist morir.
17:12So,
17:13you can be able to liberate
17:16some people
17:17or liberate
17:18some people
17:18but there are more
17:21projects punitivist
17:23that prohibit the freedom.
17:25That is a very interesting point.
17:27The criminal law in Colombia
17:28seems to be solved
17:28and it is not so.
17:30Second,
17:31we have to push
17:33that,
17:33as you said,
17:35there are people
17:35who have to be in a prison center
17:37for reasons
17:38of criminal law.
17:40Two,
17:41it is also a topic of
17:43a system that
17:44adopted Colombia.
17:45In Colombia,
17:46there is a prison
17:47and the prison
17:48and the prison
17:48and the prison
17:48and the prison
17:49have to be fulfilled.
17:50one
17:50with the
17:50two
17:51and the
17:51one
17:51through
17:52two
17:52two
17:53But three, we are also generating, and we expect to deliver in the 2025 other centers, but we can build
18:04and return to Colombia a center.
18:08So, the transit centers, for example, are no obligation of the INPEC, nor of the USPEC, nor of the Ministry.
18:15The transit centers, by the Ley 22, are obligatory to manage the municipalities, which since three years have not fulfilled
18:25their functions.
18:27But for me, the most important part is not the infrastructure, it is the reality of a human being that
18:33is detained in infrahumanas,
18:35and that, also, has a series of obligations in the state.
18:38But, above all, the need to understand that that that condemned, that person that is there, has a right to
18:45socialize,
18:46has a right to learn.
18:49The issue of the education in the prison system has been very interesting.
18:55We are generating the 50% more or less of the educational offer.
19:00The majority of detainees do not have primary or bachillerato.
19:05They are generating even the possibility of doing not only primary and bachillerato,
19:10but the tests of the IFEX, so that they can go out with a training.
19:15But that issue of the cases also plays a key point in this cascade of reforms that seems to be
19:23coming.
19:24And that the idea that the idea that has been made from time ago is that people
19:29do not come in a way so fast to the prison system.
19:34And that is generated by making adjustments to the criminal code and the criminal procedure.
19:40So, we have known in The Espectador, some of them,
19:44some of them include bajing penas, reducing some types of processes that do not allow
19:54to get to the prison system to get to the prison system.
19:58Let's say, what are those five important points that you think are going to handle
20:04for that people do not get so much to the prison system?
20:08Well, I remember a minister who passed away from here, the Dr. Yesid Reyes.
20:12The Dr. Yesid planned and approved a law that was the rule of freedom.
20:20And they went through a little bit, until they became the exception.
20:26So, the issue is also to prepare a society to understand that not everything has to be jailed.
20:32One, that not everything is done within the prison system.
20:35And three, that what we have clearly seen is that the criminal law
20:40no soluciona the problems of historical abandonment of the state.
20:46So, there are many things that one has to understand from that point of view.
20:52And obviously the rationality in the prison system,
20:55which is not an element that is studied.
20:57Here they put 20 like 40 years.
21:01And I will tell you the story of the prison system.
21:03When you kill a person that you remember very well,
21:07they were the pena of the prison system
21:09and the pena was more high than the crime of the prison.
21:12They had 60 years of prison and 40 of the prison.
21:16When someone says, why did they put 60?
21:18Ah, no, because when they killed this person, it was tragic.
21:23But what is the rationality of those 60 years?
21:25If the crime of the most grave is taking the life of a person.
21:28So, they returned to the order and reduced the pena of the prison.
21:32But we are used to that the pena of the prison solution.
21:37And it is not so.
21:38How do we prepare a society for that?
21:41I think that talking about the society and showing the reality
21:44from the system, I always say it.
21:48So, if we look at the issue of impunity,
21:51the issue of labor congestion,
21:53the issue of impossibility to process all the crimes,
21:58then we have to rationalize and say
22:02what is more effective for that person.
22:04What does that mean?
22:06What does that mean?
22:06What does that mean?
22:07What does that mean?
22:08I think it should come to a person whoahoxone is to present unless they're not aware or if they're into
22:15a system,
22:18or whatever.
22:19and is to put on the table topics difficult to prepare society.
22:28But one of them is the topic of therapeutic justice,
22:32which is totally new and we know that it has to do with
22:37looking at what led certain people to commit crimes
22:41and to give them a different treatment.
22:44Could you talk a little bit about what they are thinking about with it?
22:47Of course, this project is carried out with USAID,
22:52the project of restorative justice and therapy,
22:55which leads to understanding the causes and solutions.
23:02From that point of view,
23:03what are the appropriate measures for each person?
23:07What does it mean to look at if that person generated a crime?
23:12What is it?
23:13What is it?
23:13What is it?
23:13What is it?
23:21What is it?
23:23What is it?
23:24It is also a lot of emotional supports for these people.
23:29Because they are people...
23:30And at this point, there is another social problem...
23:33If you look at the society,
23:35and the social media,
23:36where there are a high number of non-quered children,
23:40where there is family denganes...
23:42familiar, donde nadie vela por muchas de esas personas, pues se crea también un fenómeno
23:51de abandono, de rabia contra la sociedad, que en muchas ocasiones podría explicar desde
23:57el punto de vista criminológico algunas acciones. Entonces también esa reparación del individuo
24:05cuando sale, y lo digo reparación precisamente desde el punto de vista terapéutico, es poder
24:11entender por qué delinca el sujeto sí y qué le falta a ese sujeto que se le pueda dar
24:17como apoyo, como muleta psicológica.
24:20Sí, de hecho esos borradores pareciera que estuvieran casi a punto de estar listos, se
24:28necesitan yo creo que alguna que otra discusión sobre cuándo es el momento preciso, y bueno
24:35yo quisiera también cerrar la entrevista porque parte de estar acá también es entender el
24:42derecho disciplinario como parte del sistema, y bueno que pensar sobre la procuraduría,
24:48deberíamos hacerle ajustes, pasamos los procuradores a los juzgados, le hacemos algunos retoques
24:57en su estructura o no.
24:59Mira, la Procuraduría General tiene un mandato constitucional que es más o menos el ombudsman
25:07en términos de protección de derechos humanos de otros países. La Procuraduría interviene
25:12para proteger y garantizar. La Procuraduría la están tratando de sacar del esquema colombiano
25:20desde el 2005. Y digamos que hay elementos para evaluar la posibilidad de que dentro de
25:30algunos procesos la Procuraduría se convirtió en un elemento que puede romper la armonía
25:38del sistema acusatorio. La primera discusión era que la Procuraduría no era parte, pero
25:46desbalanceaba las partes, porque partes son dos. Y entonces cuando la Procuraduría toma
25:52partido por la Fiscalía o por la Defensa, estoy hablando en materia penal, pues se dice
25:57aquí me desbalancea el proceso. Incluso en esa época estaba el doctor Edgardo Maya y el
26:03doctor Edgardo defendió la persistencia de la Procuraduría, pero la Procuraduría la han
26:07querido desaparecer desde hace muchos años de intervención en ciertos procesos. Pero también
26:14la Procuraduría participa en muchos procesos que creo que son importantes donde no hay
26:25otras instituciones que actúen. Ahora, el problema disciplinario, que ese es otro tema,
26:31es que la jurisdicción disciplinaria tiene vacíos, tiene incumplimientos, es un sistema también,
26:39un sistema sancionatorio y debería tener una serie de regulaciones y de cumplimientos,
26:47incluso de obligaciones internacionales.
26:49Ok. Bueno, Ministra, muchas gracias por el espacio en entrevistas El Espectador. Los usuarios
26:57de nuestras plataformas pudieron ver cómo abordamos diferentes temas. Estuvimos con Paz Total,
27:03las reformas que se vienen en sistema penitenciario, en sistema penal. Tenemos claro cuál es el norte
27:10que se viene ahora para la cartera de justicia. Entonces, agradecerles nuevamente por estar en
27:15este espacio. Y a todos los usuarios de El Espectador recordarles que pueden seguirnos en
27:19todas nuestras redes sociales y que estén muy pendientes de esta entrevista y de muchas más
27:24que se vienen en entrevistas El Espectador.
Comments