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00:00:07Hello and welcome to Adventuring Academy.
00:00:09I'm your humble dungeon master, Brennan E. Mulligan.
00:00:11With me today, a guest.
00:00:13It's happening.
00:00:14Who needs no introduction, but he's gonna go good and God didn't get one.
00:00:18Oh my God.
00:00:20You know and love this guest of ours today as Deloso De La Rue from Dimension 20's A Court of
00:00:25Fae and Flowers.
00:00:26As Poppy Persona slash, spoilers.
00:00:30It'll be out by now.
00:00:31Herbie Miggs from Dimension 20's Gladlands.
00:00:35And Koja from Sonoro's Tales Unrolled Alma.
00:00:39With the incredible, everyone there is incredible.
00:00:42Yes.
00:00:42But the incredible Luis Carrasso.
00:00:44Who did this.
00:00:45Who did this.
00:00:45And is incredible.
00:00:47With lovelies.
00:00:48Incredible.
00:00:49Richie from Minx, voice actor on Final Space, Victor and Valentino and Star Trek Lower Decks.
00:00:53My friend and yours, Mr. Oscar Montoya.
00:00:56Okay.
00:00:58You know what?
00:00:58I look back and I'm like, I guess I did some shit.
00:01:01I guess I have done some stuff.
00:01:02Yes.
00:01:04Yes.
00:01:04Very much so.
00:01:05We're here.
00:01:07It's good to see you.
00:01:07How are you doing?
00:01:08I'm like freaking out.
00:01:10This is crazy.
00:01:10I love it.
00:01:11Well, you're one of my favorite people in the world to play games with and improvise with.
00:01:16So phenomenally funny and talented.
00:01:18And I want to talk to you about your experience with gaming.
00:01:21We are, we're recording this at the halfway point between when we filmed Gladlands and when Gladlands is premiering.
00:01:28Which, what the heck.
00:01:30So.
00:01:31How fun.
00:01:32So much fun.
00:01:34I love Poppy and Herbie so goddamn much.
00:01:39And I wanted to talk to you about this because I think that there is an incredible insight that you,
00:01:44like, everybody is dealing with the concept of identity when they are role playing a character.
00:01:51Your characters are master classes in, I think, philosophical examinations of identity.
00:01:57Both Deloso De La Rue with the glamour.
00:02:03Yes.
00:02:03And the true form underneath.
00:02:05And Poppy persona.
00:02:07Because your play, this is some real Ginger Rogers tap dancing backwards in heels level of, I think, challenge to
00:02:16play a character who is themselves playing a character.
00:02:18Yes.
00:02:20What is your, you did not start your televised TTRPG journey on easy mode.
00:02:27You've done some really impressive character work.
00:02:30What is that like and what draws you to that?
00:02:33That, yes, thank you.
00:02:35That was, yeah, terrifying.
00:02:36In short, terrifying.
00:02:37To play D&D in front of the legends of actual play.
00:02:43It's crazy.
00:02:45Yeah, there was a moment where in A Court of Fame Flowers where, like, Hob and Rue sort of, like,
00:02:53start having feelings for each other.
00:02:55And Oscar was thinking, like, oh, no.
00:03:00Oh, no.
00:03:01I, oh, no.
00:03:02I have to, like, be charming with Brennan and write, like, romantic letters to one of the smartest people that
00:03:11has ever existed.
00:03:12I was like, oh, what have I done?
00:03:15But that's the way that the story unfolded, you know?
00:03:18Like, for me, there was no intention for me to, like, fall in love or anything like that.
00:03:23It's just, like, the magic of being at a table and playing.
00:03:26It's so beautiful.
00:03:28I had similarly, you know, that was, like, the, the, for all of the intrigue of that season, there was
00:03:34also, I think, something that was very special about finding that relationship that I also wasn't looking for.
00:03:40But what I love is that's truly fearless.
00:03:43I'll be honest.
00:03:44Look, I'm going to say it.
00:03:46I am looking for every type of experience when I'm gaming.
00:03:51And I think some people are looking for a more curated list of experiences.
00:03:56For me, I want to have an enemy.
00:03:58I want to have a best friend.
00:03:59I want to have a tearful interaction with a parent and a hopeful interaction with a child.
00:04:06And I want to fall in love.
00:04:07Yeah.
00:04:08I want all of the things.
00:04:09And so, for me, romance in game is always something that I'm, like, and maybe we fall in love.
00:04:15Could be, yeah.
00:04:15Because it's such a, it's very funny.
00:04:18I think that there are a lot of, even the people that I love playing with who don't like to
00:04:22go to that place when they're playing for reasons that I totally get.
00:04:25Absolutely.
00:04:25Because it can be vulnerable or intimate.
00:04:27But for me, it's very, it's very funny because I see these games as a way of exploring life.
00:04:33And I don't know, for me, this is maybe corny to say, there's nothing in my life as significant as
00:04:41the relationship I have with the person I'm in love with.
00:04:43And it's very, it's like, it's very funny to try to depict the richness of life without exploring all the
00:04:52different kinds of relationships.
00:04:53Yeah.
00:04:53And again, I understand, and for some people, I know that there are many of my friends and loved ones
00:04:58that do not look for that kind of romantic love in their life and more power to them in their
00:05:02life.
00:05:05But, it's very funny to take romantic affection and be like, duh, I don't think so.
00:05:11It would be, like, I just almost want there to be some symmetry of people being like, I don't do
00:05:15stuff with cousins.
00:05:18I don't want my character to have cousins.
00:05:20Like.
00:05:21I won't play, no.
00:05:23If there's a relative, I'm not messing with that.
00:05:24I'm not fucking with that.
00:05:26No, thank you.
00:05:28Is there a, in the list of things that you want to experience when you are in a relationship,
00:05:33you are playing D&D actual play?
00:05:37Like, is there something that you haven't done yet that you'd want to try?
00:05:41Whoa.
00:05:42Because, I mean, how many games have you played?
00:05:45Well, I've played so many, but I still think that I have clocked less hours as a PC than many
00:05:51of our friends.
00:05:51That's right, yeah.
00:05:52So, I think as a player character, I think the thing, if I, ugh, this is so, this feels weirdly
00:06:00vulnerable.
00:06:00Oh.
00:06:01I really would love to save the world.
00:06:03I think that I've played a lot of characters.
00:06:05It's really funny because there's this thing that happens that you quickly learn when you teach the game to new
00:06:10people a lot.
00:06:11Yeah.
00:06:11Where you realize that the things that you consider kind of basic are so thrilling.
00:06:19Like, you teach this game to, like, a young kid or people that are picking it up for the first
00:06:24time, and they're like, I want to be an elven ranger.
00:06:27And they're like, oh, straight up.
00:06:28Like, out the box.
00:06:29Yeah.
00:06:30Like, the chocolate chip cookie of character classes.
00:06:34I love chocolate chip cookies.
00:06:36But you know what I'm saying?
00:06:37Like, you're like, that is, you're like-
00:06:38There's other flavors of cookies, too.
00:06:39There's other flavors of cookies, too.
00:06:41They all taste good.
00:06:42And for me, the thing is, I have had so many exciting experiences as players, but by the time I'm
00:06:48jumping into the chair, I'm usually jumping in with people who have played so much that they're looking for really
00:06:52novel experiences.
00:06:53So it feels like I missed my window to be a knight who saves the world.
00:06:59You know what I mean?
00:07:00It's not too late, Brennan.
00:07:02You can shoehorn being a knight in any story, okay?
00:07:06I'll shoehorn it.
00:07:06All you gotta do, yes, all you gotta just-
00:07:09It's very, that's my, weirdly, I think, because as a GM, you get so many experiences where I actually have
00:07:15gotten to be parent, child, love interest, play those scenes, have those experiences.
00:07:19But the thing I haven't gotten to do is play a heroic character that goes, that has the big, honestly,
00:07:27enemy, or has the thing that is like the-
00:07:29Well, yes, because typically you are playing the big bad, the big enemy.
00:07:34The big bad.
00:07:35Has there been a situation where you, as a GM, have also played an NPC that is part of the
00:07:44party?
00:07:46Occasionally, yes.
00:07:47Okay.
00:07:47I played Zelda Donovan in The Seven with a bunch of our friends for like Sephy, Aabria, Erika, Beko, Reka,
00:07:53and Izzy.
00:07:54And I was the seventh member of the party as Zelda, who is the satyr barbarian in the Fantasy High
00:07:58universe.
00:08:00Which I played, she was a member of the party on the quest, but being a GM, you've got so
00:08:05many plates spinning that I think anytime you have what's called like a DM PC, they're always gonna be a
00:08:11little bit short shrifted because you've just got other stuff on your mind.
00:08:14Absolutely.
00:08:14And you're trying to.
00:08:16For yourself, do you feel like, because you're now playing, first of all, what's the experience been like?
00:08:24Tell me a little bit about Tales Unrolled on that.
00:08:28Yes.
00:08:28I mean, this is with some of my, some of the most brilliant performers on the planet.
00:08:32Like, shockingly, people that I've, I've like never interacted with or played with, that are now like family members to
00:08:42me.
00:08:44We did so many episodes in this first season and it just felt like our characters, we were, I was
00:08:51like experiencing my, my PC, like in real time sometimes.
00:08:56And I was just like, what is, like, what's going on?
00:08:59But like a legendary cast, Luis, of course, Christian, Navarro, icon, Camilla, like Mayanna Barron, legends, absolute legends.
00:09:11Um, and it was an all Latin table.
00:09:15Yeah.
00:09:16You know, telling stories inspired by Latin American folklore and we very much were mindful of like telling our stories.
00:09:27Uh, because our stories really, I've never seen our stories told before in that way.
00:09:33Yeah.
00:09:34And it was great to create a character inspired by, uh, Latin American roots, you know?
00:09:40Um, and it was incredible.
00:09:42It was just so magical and great.
00:09:44It's interesting too, because like their style of play, cause Luis was the DM, right?
00:09:50Um, and Luis comes from the Critical Role sort of world, very Vampire the Masquerade, very sort of serious.
00:09:57Yes.
00:09:57And I'm a little goofball, you know what I mean?
00:09:59Like, I'm from the Dimension 20, we're gonna do bits and it's gonna be silly.
00:10:04Uh, and I remember Luis, before we did anything, uh, was like, the session zero was like, listen, some of
00:10:12you, and he takes a look at me, he's like, some of you are more like in the comedy stuff,
00:10:17but we're gonna go into some serious, deep stuff, be comfortable to just go there.
00:10:24And listen, I love an assignment, you know?
00:10:26So I'm like, I, if, if, if I know what the tone is, I'm hooked, you know?
00:10:31Uh, and it was great, it was great to like allow myself to be a little more serious, a little
00:10:38like more rooted in the drama.
00:10:41Not to say that like, I, I think, I think I have a lot of those moments when I've done
00:10:46D20.
00:10:46You are spectacular in those moments in Dimension 20.
00:10:49I think that the, because, and I also feel this way about you as an improviser as well, which is,
00:10:57I remember seeing you perform, I was like, oh, Oscar's light speed funny, and sometimes the funniest thing in the
00:11:05world to do is turn in an Oscar winning performance.
00:11:07Is to give this insane set of circumstances an extremely grounded reaction.
00:11:14Ah.
00:11:14Which is often the most hilarious thing.
00:11:16Oh, of course.
00:11:16It's like.
00:11:17Yes.
00:11:18That, like to be a great, to be like the, the, the straight character in a scene being like, what
00:11:23the fuck is going on?
00:11:25To be the character that, or to get the laugh from.
00:11:29Reacting.
00:11:30Reacting.
00:11:30To the crazy thing that's happening.
00:11:32Yeah, you know, you doing some, some insane, you know, group game in a Herald, like, it's the dog DMV,
00:11:39the DMV's all dogs, and coming into that scene, sometimes the funniest thing to do is to come in and
00:11:43be like, I need to be very clear.
00:11:46I have to drive to see my ailing mother, okay?
00:11:50And you keep barking.
00:11:51Yes!
00:11:52You know, like, that's the moment, like, you're very, so, I think, I think that you, the way I would
00:11:58describe like your performance style is, you have the acting chops, and you use those acting chops to get insane
00:12:05laughs, because you know where that level of performance will actually hit a true dramatic beat, or where that level
00:12:12of performance will seem so funny,
00:12:15because it's either absurd, or it's silly, or it's out of place, like, I love that.
00:12:20Thank you so, that, that means so much, because I, you know, like, I, I'll say this, like, when I
00:12:28was in New York, there was, so I, I used to, I used to be a nanny for a very
00:12:34long time, and the kid that I, the, the parent of the kid that I nannied for is an actor,
00:12:41and he would audition all the time,
00:12:42and he, at an audition, ran into someone who knew me from the Pitt days, which is where I did
00:12:51a lot of improv at the People's Improv Theater in New York City, um, shout out to the Pitt, and,
00:12:57um, they were talking, and then, like, uh, my boss said my name, and the guy was like, oh, yeah,
00:13:05Oscar Montoya, yeah, I've, yeah, he does some stuff at, at the theater that I do stuff.
00:13:10He, he's a bit goofy, huh? And the way that it was related, I didn't hear it, this is what
00:13:18he told me, and the way that he said it, just, like, made, like, it broke my heart in a
00:13:23thousand pieces, because, yes, like, I am goofy, but the way, it was, like, very derogatory, and it really, like,
00:13:32affected,
00:13:33I heard that sucks, everything about the way that I played, because then I was, like,
00:13:39well, this is kind of, I don't want to be just, like, a goofball, right? Like, I do want to
00:13:44be taken seriously,
00:13:45and, you know, like, during that time, there were so few, like, queer, uh, like, people of color improvisers in
00:13:52the city
00:13:52that were doing stuff, and I was, like, oh, I want to be seen at the same level as, like,
00:13:57everyone else, you know,
00:13:58and to be looked down and being, like, oh, this guy's just goofy, irrelevant, like, you know, nothing,
00:14:05and I've been doing that, doing stuff for a while. It wasn't like I was just starting out, you know?
00:14:10Yeah.
00:14:10Um, but then, like, I was just, like, okay, I realized that I am still going to do the things
00:14:19that I want to do, what I find funny, which is, like, goofy stuff, but I will always connect every
00:14:27moment in comedy to truth, you know? And that is where I get those moments of, like, reacting to the
00:14:36crazy thing and, like, really emoting, like, finding crazy circumstances, the gladlands,
00:14:42and finding reality, honesty, humanity in that. Like, I found, because of that weird remark that I
00:14:49got, like, it sort of pushed me to be, like, okay, okay, you think that I'm goofy? I'm going to
00:14:55prove
00:14:55to you that goofy can still hit if you bring feeling and honesty into it, and I feel like that's
00:15:02what
00:15:02Dimension 20 does so well, and that's why it's so special, because we're a bunch of idiots
00:15:07that make each other laugh and do the craziest, dumbest things in the world, but there is truth
00:15:15in that. There's honesty in that. It comes from a real place, and it doesn't come from a place of,
00:15:21like, sabotage or anything like that.
00:15:23You couldn't, you could not have articulated, like, an artistic philosophy of both comedic
00:15:28improvisation or TTRPG storytelling that I agree with more.
00:15:31Yes.
00:15:32I used to say, as a teacher, yes.
00:15:33You do that so well, Brennan. You are a master at taking something so silly and analyzing everything
00:15:42you do is so intelligent. I'm, like, obsessed. I'm obsessed. Y'all know this, you little freaks.
00:15:49Y'all know this, okay?
00:15:50You are freaks.
00:15:51You little freaks. Y'all know this. I've seen the fan cams, okay?
00:15:55Um, you are so good at making a moment that is silly, fun, exactly what it needs, and
00:16:04then break it down into the most intelligent, there's so much brain power to the stupidity
00:16:11that you do, Brennan.
00:16:13That's really nice.
00:16:15It's goals for me, you know what I mean? Like, I look up to you because of that. Like,
00:16:19you are that person that takes the silly, goofy, and, like, emotional, heartfelt, and
00:16:24the intelligence behind it as well.
00:16:26Wow.
00:16:27That's real.
00:16:28It's true.
00:16:28That's very meaningful. The, the, I, I, the mantra I used to have as a teacher that feels
00:16:34very, that feels that we very much share a, a creed in terms of what we want to do with
00:16:39our comedy and our performance. I used to say, honor the absurd, a lot, as, like, a short
00:16:43mantra for, for improv of, like, because honor is such a solemn word, to be, like, honor
00:16:49the absurd. Be, like, okay, we're two vampires, we run a surf shack. Honor that.
00:16:56Yeah!
00:16:57Dig deep.
00:16:58What does that mean?
00:16:59What does that mean?
00:16:59To be a vampire to surf, yes.
00:17:00And what I love about the, the, first of all, I just, can I, can I pop off on some
00:17:05people
00:17:05for a second? Because your story about that person saying that shit to, to be,
00:17:09grounded is a poor man's truthful. If you are around people that keep talking about grounded
00:17:15and groundedness and make it more grounded, you're talking to someone who directs Geico
00:17:20commercials. You're talking to people that tell comedians to throw it away. These are,
00:17:25these people are vampires. They're, they are energy vampires. They're human chat GPT.
00:17:30You need to dispose of them.
00:17:33They are AI.
00:17:33They're AI.
00:17:34They're living.
00:17:34Don't trust them.
00:17:35They're T-1000.
00:17:36They're T-1000. Their souls were binary lung before Sam Altman came along.
00:17:40And I have no patience nor respect for these people. Because I really do think that they're,
00:17:47listen, I, you know, I've talked about this on the podcast before. I came out to LA,
00:17:52I auditioned for Harold Knight, I never got put on. I, I, and it was a tough time because I
00:17:57think I
00:17:58also had a style that was super, I was playing manticores in like a lot of scenes, you know,
00:18:04like there's a big goofy over the topness. And for me, I used to, I remember even when I was
00:18:10teaching
00:18:11back in New York.
00:18:12Yeah.
00:18:13And when, but, but I bring that up to say, I had a very goofy style and I got feedback
00:18:17that I was too
00:18:18over the top. Part of the reason, and Izzy got the same feedback, which is part of why we started
00:18:21bigger. Was to be, was, was, we were like, oh, are we a little over the top? Are we a
00:18:25little extra?
00:18:26Got it.
00:18:27Yeah.
00:18:27And, and celebrating that, right?
00:18:29Totally.
00:18:29Because it's so easy for people in power who have sort of like, I don't know, a status
00:18:37as proof of their, you know, successfulness, you know, like these people that are like the
00:18:43heads of theaters, like in charge of booking shows, casting you in things, telling you like,
00:18:48you're too much, you need to tone it down. It's so easy to be like, heard, I'm going to
00:18:54dull myself. I'm going to like kill a little part of myself that ignites this fire. And it takes
00:18:59a lot of balls to be like, I heard, and you know what? Respectfully, fuck you.
00:19:05Yeah.
00:19:06Respectfully, I'm going to do my own shit.
00:19:08I'm going to do my own shit. But it's really funny because I think there was a, I've been
00:19:11encountering this for, for a long time. First of all, I think there are a lot of people
00:19:15out there. Many, some of them are creators and writers and directors. Some of them are executives
00:19:21that make decisions about what gets made or who gets given a shot. And they have mistaken
00:19:26an aesthetic preference for mumblecore with a devotion to truth-telling. And if you like
00:19:33speaking quietly and being boring, go with God. But I, go with God. I'm fucking, I'm unloading
00:19:42today.
00:19:42Do it!
00:19:43Period.
00:19:44That's what people want. That's why people are watching this. To unload.
00:19:48To unload. But like, for real, someone being like a little goofy, it's like, you wish, you wish
00:19:53you could get on Oscar Montoya's level. Literally. But the, I remember this thing that was, that
00:19:59when I first encountered this, this like, you know, it's an aesthetic creative preference
00:20:06for something that people call grounded, which is, which really does come down to people kind
00:20:13of being like, like your cartoonishness strikes me as unreal, da, da, da, da, whatever. I encountered
00:20:19it in film school, first of all, when I was studying screenwriting. I was writing about fucking demon
00:20:23hunters and shit that I like. And people were like, this is a fucking nightmare. You should be
00:20:28writing a, like, my short film is about a film student that doesn't know what his short film
00:20:33should be about. And a series of conversations shot in black and white that he has in Brooklyn.
00:20:38And I would go like, well, I want to kill myself.
00:20:40Well, it's like, I'm reading all of those screenplays and you're the one I remember.
00:20:44And then the, everyone else's is like the exact same.
00:20:48And what was crazy about it in that time. Yes. Right. And you're, first of all, what's crazy
00:20:52is you can watch some of those grounded things and go, this is literally verbatim what happened
00:20:59to you. Why does it feel like a lie? Like, how did you tell a story about something that really
00:21:06happened and this feels fake? In the most grounded way possible, you're communicating this and it
00:21:10feels like high fantasy to me. Yes. Whereas something high fantasy and it's like, oh,
00:21:16that was actually my experience. Yeah. Yeah. There's some good in this world,
00:21:19Mr. Forever is worth fighting for. Right. You see that and you're like, the fact that that was
00:21:22said by a hobbit doesn't make it not the most meaningful thing I've ever heard. And I remember
00:21:27after. Which now I know what that means because I read The Hobbit.
00:21:31God damn it. Do you still have those books? Of course I do. And I am reading them, you know.
00:21:37That's so funny. Listen, I'm not going to refuse a gift. A gift is given to me for a very
00:21:42specific
00:21:43reason. I'm not going to take a gift and be like, well, whatever. No, I'm a big listener to the
00:21:47universe. I was meant to read those books. And I remember reading the sort of, what is the beginning
00:21:54before? Introduction, I guess. Forward, yeah. Whatever it is. And our boy JR was spouting about
00:22:02these wars. And I'm like, what is he talking about? Then I found out The Hobbit was a prequel.
00:22:07And I said, maybe I should read The Hobbit first. And I did. And it was great.
00:22:11Hobbit's great. I love The Hobbit. It's great. I love The Hobbit. It's really, yeah, The Hobbit's
00:22:17fantastic. There's the, not only is The Hobbit fantastic, but I also feel like it is such a
00:22:25great intro to the world. By the time you're in Lord of the Rings, you're like, oh, shit got
00:22:28really serious. You know, like, the trolls in Lord of the Rings are these, like, ravenous
00:22:33monsters. You go back to The Hobbit and you're like, their names are Bert and Tom.
00:22:37Literally. And they're goofy. And they're, like, arguing with each other. And it's kind
00:22:40of cute, actually. Kind of cute, actually. But Lord of the Rings, it's like, mm-mm, serious.
00:22:45Serious. It's serious.
00:22:46With that, I, so I've been encountering these groundites my whole life. And what I remember
00:22:55is going to film school and being like, okay, I guess I am a moron and that this shit is
00:23:00not, you know, like, you just get, you're like, yeah, okay, I guess I'm really isolated
00:23:05in this thing. And what was really fascinating is right after college, I started working as
00:23:09a bartender. And working as a bartender, even after the first year, it made me want to go
00:23:15back to that film school and be like, you guys harped on me for four years about being
00:23:22more realistic. And the world is so much stranger and goofier and louder and weirder than all
00:23:30of you. I'm sorry you are boring, but this is how we're, the first week I was bartending
00:23:35at the Barney Stone, this guy came in, straggly, like, goatee, biker, Harley Davidson's best,
00:23:41American flag bandana, fingerless gloves. He sits at the bar and says, brother, let me get
00:23:46a Michelob heavy. My kids can't know I'm in town. And I go, if I had ridden that, everyone
00:23:55would, yeah. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. No, cross it out. Too crazy. It really, it'll
00:24:01make you crazy. So in any case, the, the, the, the, both in your experience doing improv
00:24:06in, in New York, my experience is doing some improv in LA and, and having, I think, different,
00:24:11for whatever reason, it's like, but, and by the way, no one's required to find me funny
00:24:18if, if they don't find me funny. Absolutely. But the, the, it was the philosophy behind
00:24:22it that was like, what you're doing is not truthful because it is, uh, um, engaging in
00:24:30fantasy. As a teacher, I used to tell people, I remember in New York getting, getting over
00:24:34their whole realistic thing where someone was like, we're trying to be realistic. And
00:24:38I even started saying, no, you're not. I said, when you go out on stage, do you turn
00:24:43your chest to the audience and your head to the side? Not real. Nope. We're already not
00:24:48real. You might as well give up on it. Yep. Let's be honest. Right. Let's be truthful.
00:24:52That's it. Like, right. You know, I think also with improv, it's like the whole reason improv
00:24:58works as an art form is because I, as myself can be literally anything that I want to be.
00:25:08It is, it, it, it, it's, it's art form calls for suspension of disbelief. It requires you
00:25:19to believe in the worlds, in the fantasy worlds that I'm creating with my scene partner.
00:25:24Yeah. Who says it has to be grounded? I can be, uh, envelope and you could be a stamp and
00:25:32we could be talking about like the, the, the decline of the U S postal service, right? Like,
00:25:39which is a very real conversation that people have, but I just happen to be an envelope and
00:25:43you happen to be a stamp, you know, like that you can get as much reality from these heightened
00:25:50experiences as you can from just two people mumbling to each other. I agree. So I mean, like,
00:25:56obviously I've like, my career is built on agreeing with that exact sentiment of like,
00:26:01oh, these larger than life forms actually let us get at the truth. Like almost create a shortcut
00:26:06to saying something that's true. It's easier to say it as a fairy than it is to say it as
00:26:11myself.
00:26:12Yeah. And well, that let's talk about that because I, uh, uh, Rue, Poppy and Herbie,
00:26:20uh, uh, uh, uh, these characters are so, uh, uh, funny, engaging, heartfelt, uh, I'd be interested
00:26:30also hearing if you see like within Koja, because, because we're even wrong, has, are, is Koja an
00:26:36ongoing character or are you, so like, A, I'm also interested by the way as a deviation, just like
00:26:42how it feels to go from Dimension 20 seasons where you know that there's going to be these sort of
00:26:46arcs being wrapped up to a character that you're taking a longer journey with. Did you make
00:26:50different creative decisions as you were designing Koja for that reason?
00:26:53I, okay, so I didn't. Like my experience in actual play is still, even though I've done it for a
00:27:01while, like there's a part of me of the math of actual play that is so scary to me. Because
00:27:10like,
00:27:10I can, I can be in a character no problem. The, the, the play of it is great, but when
00:27:15it comes to
00:27:15combat baby, um, tag me out, you know what I mean? I'm like, I'm just gonna watch y'all fight
00:27:21each
00:27:22other because I don't know what to do. But because of that sort of paralysis that I have, and honestly,
00:27:27like, it is like a little bit, like I do feel a little embarrassed about the fact that I don't
00:27:33quite, especially like there are people out there, uh, it seems like most people who do
00:27:40a D&D or actual play that just know the math of every class of every, you know what I'm
00:27:46like,
00:27:47and I just, I, I'm curious to know like how long it took you to like know, because you seem
00:27:52to know
00:27:52like everything, because I think you have to as a GM. Yeah, as a GM, there, there's definitely,
00:27:58you want to be that resource for people. But you, what's interesting because the, the combat part of it,
00:28:07I think there's, there's an element where you start, you have to find why it matters. And if
00:28:13it doesn't matter, you can't really blame people for not, if like, people want to follow the path
00:28:20of least resistance. And if you're like, hey, this storytelling role-playing component of the game
00:28:23is so gratifying to me. Yes. And it's not clear to me what the high I'm chasing over here necessarily
00:28:30is. As yes. Yes. Truly. Because like, for me, I think I was stuck on this idea of people being
00:28:37mad that I wasn't fighting the right way. Yeah. And I think like, there's a difference between
00:28:43like fight, whether it's combat or just like the social aspect of it, of playing it the right way.
00:28:50Yeah. Of, of playing to win versus playing it as a way to make sense for your character and your
00:28:58storyline. So for me, I was like, okay, so I'm going to develop Koja as someone who is a druid,
00:29:03which is a class I've never played before. Yeah. Um, and I'm like, but this is someone who
00:29:08has druid powers that sort of resist their powers. Cool. Resist the, um,
00:29:18like has these like surges of like, uh, of, of powers of like nature talking to him and him
00:29:25resisting that because of the fear of going to more primal state that, that was sort of Koja's like
00:29:31whole, um, storyline of like, uh, uh, he's like this half ogre, sort of this big
00:29:39person taking up so much space, but wanting to be small. Yeah. And a lot of that is like being
00:29:44seen
00:29:44as a monster and not, and trying to fight people's expectations of him. Yeah. You know? So like,
00:29:51I remember the first time we had a combat because Tales of the World is, is heavily combat. There's a
00:29:57lot
00:29:58of fighting happening there. And me, I remember the first time they were like, okay, it's Koja's
00:30:03turn. And I was like, I pass. I don't do anything. And that was a huge story moment. Yes. Like,
00:30:09did I do that wrong? Yes, I did a hundred percent. I should be fighting and I should be helping
00:30:14the
00:30:14party or whatever. But for Koja, it made sense to resist the fighting. And it got to a point where
00:30:21you sort of, throughout the course of the season, he's learning how to play his class like I am
00:30:28learning how to play that as well. I love that so much. First of all, that, there, there are always
00:30:37going to be people, there, there are people who consume actual play that their passion for that
00:30:45segment of the game is always going to be projected on others as a natural default state of play.
00:30:53Yes. And listen, there are people who are just like there for the battles and are incredibly
00:30:59adept at fighting. Like some of the most cinematic fight scenes that you will ever hear in your entire
00:31:04life. I'm not built like that. Yeah, totally. I can't do that. You know what I mean? I think
00:31:10that there's an element within that, that like the thing that made battles, because I was playing this when
00:31:14I was 10. Yeah. I didn't know the rules. I was, we were just fumbling along. I remember a friend's
00:31:20older brother started to actually outline the game for me in a way that like, I was like, oh, that's
00:31:26what that's for. And you start to see that. The thing that I think started to make battle, make the
00:31:35rules
00:31:36of combat start to feel engaging like role play and story was engaging, was A, making the, the, the
00:31:47connection of the storytelling doesn't stop when combat starts. This is still storytelling. But by the
00:31:53way, that is something that you clearly embodied in Koja not fight. Like in other words, in other words,
00:32:01just robotically making optimized moves is something that you could do in the same way.
00:32:06Like you can go online and see the best class builds and look up a Reddit post where somebody
00:32:11else figured out the optimal move. And then you can go and do that. And it didn't make you creative
00:32:15and didn't do anything other than, you know, like, so I think the idea of you still have to use
00:32:19combat
00:32:21for storytelling. Yeah. What is it saying about the story? What is it saying about the story? The only
00:32:25thing that I think is that I find to be fun about combat as someone who, like you, is here
00:32:33for the
00:32:33story is sometimes the rules of the game prompt an immersion in a feeling that your character is
00:32:43feeling. Like when your character is in danger in the game, you actually know, despite the DM's best
00:32:49intentions, I might just die now because the dice come up bad. And all of a sudden, you're feeling a
00:32:55level of panic that actually becomes a mirror of what your character would be going through.
00:33:01Yes. So those are, there are lots of moments under the best of circumstances where the rules
00:33:06actually become a storytelling aid and become an acting aid. And I think that there's something
00:33:11fascinating as someone who has played some very broken characters, you know, Hob was a well-designed
00:33:17character for a different campaign. Yes. Right? Hob was the war hero who was great in a fight in a
00:33:21season with almost no fighting. True. How delicious for the story though.
00:33:26And very fun, almost a reflection of Koja, right? Hob being someone who's like,
00:33:31I would be great if we were rolling initiative more often. Yes.
00:33:33Right? And like, but because this is all social, I'm having a bad, and it helped me,
00:33:39having a character sheet that I looked at that none of this ever helped me.
00:33:43Seriously.
00:33:44Help put me in Hob's mind state. Yes.
00:33:47So I think the best scenario, as the thing I would say for people at home that are coming from
00:33:54a deep
00:33:54facility with story and character is these little fucking numbers on this spreadsheet can, if you
00:34:02have your Neo moment where the rules start to make sense, they actually become an acting aid. They
00:34:07become a storytelling aid. That's very true. Yes. The numbers dictate the kind of character that you're
00:34:14creating. Yeah. There's a reason why you're putting this amount of points in charisma versus strength,
00:34:18this dexterity. You know what I mean? Like, it's another way to tell a story. Yeah.
00:34:23But the thing about Koja too, and to get back to the question I think you've been trying to ask
00:34:27me
00:34:27like seven times that I keep avoiding about the characters that I create. Ultimately, it is about
00:34:33identity. Like, I am absolutely fascinated with identity, but more specifically, it's identity.
00:34:39What does identity mean to people who perceive you versus the person that you are? I'm endlessly
00:34:47fascinated by that, of like, what defines an identity? Yeah. Is it people observing you and like
00:34:55collecting little pieces of data to then make assumptions about the kind of person that you are?
00:35:01Are you, are you, is your identity the thing that you present yourself outwardly to the world? The
00:35:08things that are important to you in which you are vocalizing and then presenting the clothes that you
00:35:12choose to wear every day? Like, is that identity or is identity who you are when all the noise is
00:35:19off?
00:35:19When you are in your room by yourself in your own thoughts? Like, I don't have an answer to that.
00:35:26You know, it's a combination of all those things. But to me, that's what's so fat. That's why I create
00:35:31characters that present a specific way, but are something else because of protection, because of
00:35:41the message, you know, because of fear, you know, like that, that's what I'm, and it's not,
00:35:48when I did Poppy Persona, it literally was, I didn't even think about that. To me,
00:35:55the template was very Tina Turner and Beyond Thunderdome. Like that, that was it. And I was
00:35:58like, it's giving Tina Turner, Tina Turner to me looks in that movie looks like a drag queen. So it's
00:36:04going to be a drag queen. Also, how cool would it be to have a drag queen, like read stories
00:36:08to
00:36:09children in a post-apocalyptic future where that in today's climate is so, you know what I mean?
00:36:15Like taboo for some reason. And then while I was doing Gladlands, I realized like, oh my God, it's,
00:36:23it's Rue again. It's Koja again. It's that idea of like, what do we present to the world?
00:36:31Yeah. Why do we present the way that we present? And is that who we actually are?
00:36:38That is so beautiful. And I think of, there's like, there's more gems in what you just said
00:36:44than we have time to go over before we have to move on to the next segment. But truthfully,
00:36:48the thing that I got there is you saying like, when you said, I don't have the answer, it immediately
00:36:53resonated with me because I really feel like I do not make characters based on when I have an answer.
00:36:59I make characters based on when I have a question. And that the character is, for a character to be
00:37:06endlessly possible for me to return to and find something fun to play there, it's the wrestling,
00:37:12it's the struggle, it's the feeling of like, no, no, I know this matters to me, but I don't have
00:37:17the answer. There is a broad, you know, with Hobb, this idea of like, which is very Regency,
00:37:22but it's duty versus love, or duty versus, or service versus self, like selflessness versus
00:37:30what the self needs. Yeah. And, you know. Yeah. As someone who identifies as a man,
00:37:35like a serviceman to his people versus like, without that, then who is Hobb?
00:37:41Who is he? And the idea too, of like, do your people, and like, also the thing too, I think
00:37:46of
00:37:47a toxic relationship to service, where you go like, do you, like, check in for a second,
00:37:53do people really need you? Or did you just decide they needed you? And is what you're doing for the
00:37:58Goblin Court in this moment, like, is this really helpful? I think there's like a lot of, but I love
00:38:06that also the drag queen, you just made me think of a friend of the show, Bob the Drag Queen.
00:38:10Bob! Bob! A wild thing to say. Just the fact that I'm like, yeah.
00:38:13Friend of the show and your friend. And my friend. And your actual friend.
00:38:17And my actual friend, Bob the Drag Queen, yeah. And Bob and Monet dressing up as their characters.
00:38:20The characters for Halloween! Like, hello?
00:38:23You have to understand where I was watching RuPaul's Drag Race with my wife on, in lockdown,
00:38:30haven't seen another human, and just going like, they're so amazing. You know, like,
00:38:36what is your life? I don't know. It's really silly. Hi, Bob. Bob had the funniest fucking
00:38:44takedown of, there was some horrifying conservative ghoul on social media who said this thing where I was
00:38:53like, Jesus Christ, where it was a stitch where the person was like, drag queens reading to children,
00:38:59why are they never reading to the elderly or the sick? And you're like, you fucking gargoyle.
00:39:05And then it cuts to Bob going, this sort of goes without saying, can we ever have to say this?
00:39:13The elderly and the sick can read. They can read.
00:39:19Bob? They can read.
00:39:20Bob and their takedowns are like, legendary. Legendary.
00:39:25They're S tier reads. And Bob will do it with no effort at all.
00:39:30It's crazy. It's so, yeah, it's so, God, Bob is so fucking funny.
00:39:34Bob is great. But to your point about the exploration of identity, and I think that's so beautiful.
00:39:42And again, the idea of coming to it as an exploration, because I think, it's like, listen,
00:39:50I have some clear points of view, and it's in my work, and it's very clear what those points of
00:39:54view are.
00:39:55However, I think that you get into, I think that there are many different definitions of art versus propaganda.
00:40:01And I think that it's nice, I'm always drawn to art, where a person has a clear point of view
00:40:07and maybe some deep convictions,
00:40:08but is ultimately going, this is what I'm exploring, versus I have all the answers and I'm here to tell
00:40:15them to you, right?
00:40:16Yeah, it's the message, right? It's like, this is my person. Yeah, like, nothing that we do here at this
00:40:23table is propaganda.
00:40:25Yeah.
00:40:26Unless it's, everyone should be queer, and then, yes, be queer.
00:40:31Mandatory queerness here in the dumps.
00:40:34Queerness starts now!
00:40:37And that's a great enough for our first segment.
00:40:39We'll be moving forward to get ready for contested roll.
00:40:54That's right, it's contested roll.
00:40:56This is the segment where we dive deep into the shallow end of the discourse.
00:41:03There's no teleprompter here, I don't know.
00:41:05Why are you?
00:41:07Blood, blood, blood.
00:41:09This is where we dive deep, this is where we dive deep into the pool, the deep end of it,
00:41:15of the discourse pool.
00:41:16The takes are the water in the discourse pool, and there's no lifeguard because they got fired from the government.
00:41:25Folks, this is contested roll.
00:41:28That's the new mug, and that's the new mug, you see?
00:41:29And the thing is, it's gonna be a new mug, you know?
00:41:32And the thing is, every time I do that, it's a new mug.
00:41:36Folks, this is contested roll.
00:41:37This is where we get into the spiciest takes, tearing the TTRPG community apart.
00:41:42Oscar.
00:41:43Yes.
00:41:45Whichever position you stake out, whichever hill you are willing to die on, I shall be honor-bound to die
00:41:51on the opposing hill.
00:41:52That's right, I have to take the other side of the argument.
00:41:55I turn it over to you, my friend.
00:41:56What is your TTRPG opinion today?
00:42:01Let's fuck shit up, okay?
00:42:04I'm ready to get people so mad at me.
00:42:06Um, I believe that all PCs should receive the same amount of experience points whether that player was at the
00:42:14table or not.
00:42:15They should all receive the same amount of experience points.
00:42:17So you think that PCs should, same XP, same level?
00:42:20Same level, same level, no different levels, what the hell? No, they should all be the same levels.
00:42:26If they're going through a journey together, they should all experience points it together as well.
00:42:35Yeah.
00:42:35Well, I think that makes sense, Oscar, obviously, because, because like, imagine a fantasy universe,
00:42:43imagine an adventure where people weren't at the same level of power.
00:42:47That would be like if nine people went on an adventure, and one of them was like a celestial wizard
00:42:52angel that came back with a different suit of clothes,
00:42:55and four of them were literal hobbits from the Shire.
00:42:58And it would be weird if like, two of them drank a magic ent potion and got really tall and
00:43:03strong,
00:43:04and the other two, and like, maybe one of them got stabbed by a knife and was like weak forever.
00:43:09That adventure would fucking suck.
00:43:10Oh wait, that's the Lord of the Rings!
00:43:13Can I just take this moment right now to complain about Gandalf?
00:43:17I don't see it. I don't see it.
00:43:20Gandalf supporters, let me hear ya, because there should be none.
00:43:24I'm not a Gandalf fan, and I'll say it. I'll say it, I don't like Gandalf for that reason alone.
00:43:30And it ties in with my rant, because Gandalf should be at the same level as the whole party.
00:43:35What do you mean I gotta leave real quick and then come back stronger than ever before?
00:43:39No! What do you mean we're all in danger and some dude shows up out of nowhere,
00:43:44like an absent father, shows up to save the day and then has to leave?
00:43:48No. Enough.
00:43:51No more defending Gandalf.
00:43:53Yes, I know that Ian McClend, Sir Ian McClend played him in the movies.
00:43:56That don't make him good.
00:43:58That don't make him nice.
00:44:01Listen, listen, the last thing I will stand for here in the dub is disparaging
00:44:07the wizard of all time, okay? Gandalf has a lot of irons in the fire, okay?
00:44:14Gandalf loves you, but he can't come to Christmas this year, okay? Maybe Gandalf has another family,
00:44:20okay? Maybe. Oh, he does.
00:44:22Oh, he's not loyal. No, no, no, no, no, no. Uh-uh. And I don't like that, because it's like,
00:44:27stick to one party, babe. It is so, I did a tweet thread many years ago, breaking kayfabe for a
00:44:33moment. I did a tweet thread many years ago about what if Lord of the Rings was a D&D
00:44:37game and
00:44:38everything weird that happens in the books is explained by what was happening at the table.
00:44:42And I was like, whoever plays Gandalf is obviously a person that everyone loves and thinks is awesome,
00:44:48but is a musician and has a lot of road gigs.
00:44:50A hundred percent. Yes, Gandalf is that player that's like a working actor and is like so fun,
00:44:57but like is a series regular on a show and can only show up like once a month. But weirdly,
00:45:02because he's so beloved, he's like 20 levels ahead.
00:45:06Ahead of everybody else.
00:45:07Of everyone else. And that's why I firmly believe that everyone should be at the same level. Could you
00:45:11imagine Gandalf at the same level as that Fellowship?
00:45:15I, well, yeah, I can imagine. What is this? This is a moment where all of a sudden Frodo is
00:45:20like,
00:45:20I'm not sure if I can take the ring into Mordor. Wait, yes, I fucking can.
00:45:26Fucking prismatic spray. Hadouken. Right into Mordor. Like, done, done. It'd be three pages long.
00:45:34I may not be able to carry the ring, Master Frodo, but I can teleport us right away to Mount
00:45:39Doom.
00:45:40Ah! No, listen, okay, level disparity is huge. Here in the Dome itself,
00:45:49season two, sophomore year of Fantasy High, Fabian D levels himself to no class features.
00:45:54What a choice, what a moment. Lou Wilson, brilliant actor, brilliant TTRPG performer.
00:45:58We look out and see level differences. A Crown of Candy, the veterans of the Ravening War,
00:46:06different levels from the people that have not yet fought. It's very similar to, and by the way,
00:46:11for, for, for, you know, all of our friends out there, I think that, uh, uh, disparity in level
00:46:16creates interesting texture to rich campaign worlds. Uh, and also...
00:46:22You said disparity. You said disparity, and that, uh, that insinuates that it's a bad thing.
00:46:30Disparity is not a great... We're not looking forward to disparity.
00:46:34Disparity.
00:46:36Fair. Okay, I understand that it might not be...
00:46:41Fine, I concede, I concede, I concede. Well, the other funny thing, too, is this.
00:46:45I actually love... I'll break it, full of breaking, I concede the point,
00:46:49contestant roll.
00:46:52But the thing is, I think there's two things here. I actually think intentional level
00:46:58splits can be really fun. If someone wants to play the, the, the super powerful person,
00:47:04and, like, I have loved moments where it's like, I'm with a bunch of eighth level characters,
00:47:08I'm third level, I'm someone's squire, and it's like, let's go! I want to do my best!
00:47:13I think it's really fun. I think that when the player misses, punishing the character is sort of,
00:47:20that is funny to me, because it's like, what? Did that character suddenly just be like,
00:47:25I blacked out there for a second. Like, what'd I miss?
00:47:29What'd I miss?
00:47:30If they're on the adventure, it makes sense for them to continue to accumulate expo.
00:47:33Yes. I, to your point, yes, I do think that it's, it's good if the story,
00:47:40I think it's a good storytelling device, right? But I think in the way that I'm saying it,
00:47:45it's like, I don't want it to seem like a punishment.
00:47:48Yes. If you miss a session, because listen, we're all adults, you know, with things,
00:47:54you know, emergencies happen all the time, I don't, the, the sort of withholding experience
00:47:59points is not, come on, we all grown here, we don't need to be withholding of, of,
00:48:05Well, I mean, I'm being punished because I had a thing come up at work, yeah, for sure.
00:48:09You know what I mean? So, like, I feel like that's, that's when that's used, where it's like,
00:48:13well, so-and-so showed up to every session, and that's why they're six levels higher than you,
00:48:17and if you show up once, you know. Well, I agree with that, I just saw a spicy little
00:48:20take floating around somewhere that I really enjoyed, which was someone said,
00:48:24don't, uh, don't solve out-of-game problems with in-game actions. Period. Yes.
00:48:29Oh my gosh, the amount of real-life debris that gets clogged on the table is crazy.
00:48:37If someone is not doing a good job with prioritizing gaming sessions and is missing a lot,
00:48:42maybe for reasons that feel, go talk with them and say,
00:48:45Hey, is this, is this time working out for you? Or being like,
00:48:48Hey, there's like a limited number of seats here. Like, we love having you when you're available,
00:48:53but there might be someone who maybe wants to prioritize this a little bit more,
00:48:57who we could have them come, you know, like-
00:48:58It's no hard feelings. No hard feelings.
00:49:00It is just like, I've, I love, there's so many sessions, like, tables where I'm like,
00:49:06yes, I can come in, and then my life gets really crazy, and I've had DMs reach out to me
00:49:11to be like,
00:49:11Hey, is this something you can still do? I appreciate that, because it seems like,
00:49:16I'm always thinking like, whatever, they don't need me. If I'm gone, like, it's fine, they can.
00:49:20But like, the DM reaching out and being like, is this something that works within your schedule?
00:49:24Should we reschedule? It shows me that they care about me as a player, that my absence is felt,
00:49:32and that makes me feel nice, and also makes me like, recontextualize like, wait, am I putting as much work
00:49:39as like,
00:49:39the DM is putting, because that sucks for the DM to plan something, and then realizing like,
00:49:44oh, only two people can make it today. Okay, that's, that sucks, you know?
00:49:49Yeah, totally.
00:49:49So like, like reaching out, like checking in, but like to bring all of that messiness into
00:49:55the table of like, great, you can continue, but you're not getting any points.
00:50:00Yeah.
00:50:00You're not getting any of these rare items, you know?
00:50:02Yeah.
00:50:03So, don't do that.
00:50:04Don't do that. I agree. And also, it might be even a little spicier.
00:50:08I don't, I'm not a big fan of XP. I, you, I did.
00:50:11Oh!
00:50:13I, I, I did my 14-year home game with experience points.
00:50:17That's enough.
00:50:21And that's a wrap?
00:50:22That's a wrap?
00:50:22I'm done, I'm actually done.
00:50:24You said something that hurt.
00:50:24And Cynthia, is the car here? Yeah, thank you.
00:50:27Cynthia, the car?
00:50:27Is the car here?
00:50:29Is the car here?
00:50:31Is my Segway here that I ordered?
00:50:33Can I, can I pull my Segway around?
00:50:36I have to, I have to be in West Hollywood in four hours.
00:50:38Ah!
00:50:38In four hours, exactly.
00:50:43And that is contested roll!
00:50:45Coming up next, we, we've had the spicy takes,
00:50:48and now it's time for a little snack break with Constitution Save.
00:51:00Welcome to Constitution Save.
00:51:02This is the segment here in Adventuring Academy,
00:51:03where we get serious about snacking.
00:51:05That's right, you gotta keep the blood sugar up
00:51:07and the calories counting when you are at the gaming table.
00:51:11Oscar, what do we have before us here today?
00:51:15Well, we have a lot of Colombian snacks from my homeland.
00:51:22We have a little bit of rosquillas caleñas,
00:51:27which is like a fried dough, little like chip snack.
00:51:31It is my favorite treat in the whole wide world.
00:51:35It's so yummy.
00:51:37And then Manimoto, which is like a peanut snack.
00:51:41Manimoto Crunch, Colombian staple.
00:51:44Oh my God.
00:51:45And then my favorite thing in the world.
00:51:47This is a fun little treat, typically that I do at night,
00:51:51before I go to bed.
00:51:53It's hot chocolate, it's called chocolate con queso,
00:51:55and it's hot chocolate, and then a little bit of cheese.
00:52:00And you put the cheese in the chocolate for a little bit,
00:52:06and then you take out the cheese and you eat it.
00:52:07Oh my God.
00:52:09So where would you like to start?
00:52:10Hay muchas meriendas de Colombia.
00:52:13Ah, pues me olvidó que hablas español, por favor.
00:52:17Ah, sÃ, claro que sÃ.
00:52:19Está bien por televisión.
00:52:21Ah, increÃble.
00:52:24Okay, chocolate primera?
00:52:26Okay, sÃ, sÃ, claro.
00:52:27Mmm.
00:52:28So you take the cheese and you put it in the spoon, typically,
00:52:34and then you just dip it in the chocolate and you just sort of let it hang out for a
00:52:41second
00:52:41until it gets really melty.
00:52:43The hotter the chocolate, the more successful this will be, okay?
00:52:46Oh, this is very special.
00:52:48So...
00:52:48Now, have you had this before?
00:52:50Have you had any of these snacks before?
00:52:51No.
00:52:55Ah!
00:52:55Ah, pero la primera comida de mi vida fue arepas de Colombia.
00:53:00Ah, y arepas de Colombia.
00:53:01SÃ.
00:53:02Porque...
00:53:04ExplÃcame, en Nueva York, ¿viste...?
00:53:06Ah, ¿te gusta?
00:53:08MuchÃsimas.
00:53:09Ah!
00:53:10Ah, me gusta mucho.
00:53:13Because this is an acquired taste.
00:53:14I mean, I'm not sure this is for everybody.
00:53:16But it's not just the chocolate.
00:53:17It's the spices on the chocolate, right?
00:53:20It's the like...
00:53:24What type of cheese is that?
00:53:27Is there a specific...
00:53:28Mmm, that's really good.
00:53:29Is it queso blanco or like...
00:53:30It's a queso...
00:53:32What did I say it was?
00:53:34You said queso blanco.
00:53:35Yeah, queso blanco.
00:53:37Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:53:37Oh my God.
00:53:38It's a specific...
00:53:38Yeah, it's queso blanco, essentially.
00:53:39I love...
00:53:40And that is the right kind of cheese.
00:53:41Yeah, yeah.
00:53:42I don't want no cheddar.
00:53:43I don't want no American cheese.
00:53:46Well, you want something gentle, because it's there to soak up.
00:53:49It's a esponja de especias y chocolate, right?
00:53:51It's like, yeah.
00:53:51Mmm, exacto.
00:53:52It's really good.
00:53:53Oh, man.
00:53:54I really want to...
00:53:55¿Uno más?
00:53:55Yeah, uno más.
00:53:56I really want to go to Colombia.
00:53:58I would love to.
00:53:59Have you never been?
00:53:59I've never been.
00:54:00I've never been.
00:54:02But the Ortiz's that were...
00:54:04The family that I learned Spanish from a little, little, were from Colombia.
00:54:10Because you lived...
00:54:10Where did you live when you were there?
00:54:11Washington Heights in New York.
00:54:13And so, hay mucha gente espanohablante.
00:54:19SÃ.
00:54:21And, you know, when I was little, little, I spoke Spanish and English at the same time.
00:54:25We moved out of Washington Heights.
00:54:27I lost people to speak with, and then picked it back up as an adult.
00:54:30Pero eso es importante, porque si no practicas el español, se lo va a olvidar.
00:54:35SÃ, como se dice, de niño hablé mucho y, you know, tenÃa una oreja por el idioma.
00:54:47You know, like, and I think when you get to adulthood and you're able to pick it up faster.
00:54:51Easy is a thousand percent.
00:54:53Easy is a genius of languages.
00:54:56He speaks French, Spanish, and English.
00:54:59Wow.
00:54:59And he learned Spanish very quickly, like, three or four months.
00:55:05¿Qué?
00:55:06Yes, he's a genius of languages.
00:55:09Yeah, but you have to have to listen to the language to learn it.
00:55:15Because I'm trying to learn Japanese, and I have to say that it's very difficult.
00:55:21Very difficult, yes.
00:55:23Like, letters are different.
00:55:24It's a different world.
00:55:27Ah, the language.
00:55:27The language.
00:55:27The language.
00:55:28The language.
00:55:29And Easy is learning Yiddish right now.
00:55:38Yes.
00:55:39And how is he learning?
00:55:40Are you taking classes or what?
00:55:43Okay.
00:55:44No Duolingo.
00:55:45Okay.
00:55:45Con AI.
00:55:46Yeah.
00:55:47Mm-hmm.
00:55:48Pero, um, un aplicación, quizás, like, Libby, like, una biblioteca.
00:55:55Oh, de la biblioteca.
00:55:56SÃ.
00:55:57Libby es una aplicación muy, muy buena.
00:55:59Wow, okay.
00:56:01This hot chocolate is so good.
00:56:03And the cheese is perfect.
00:56:04You get the hit of chocolate.
00:56:05Yes.
00:56:06And the little, and then it gets that little tartness right at the end.
00:56:09It's that salty and sweet mix that is so good.
00:56:12But this is, like, just, and people, people put this kind of cheese in their coffee as well in
00:56:17Colombia sometimes.
00:56:19But to me, it doesn't hit quite the same way as hot chocolate and cheese.
00:56:24Oh, God, that mix of spices and that hot chocolate.
00:56:28All right.
00:56:29I'm going to crack this open.
00:56:31¿Qué significa rosquillas?
00:56:33Rosquillas is, like, what it is.
00:56:36I mean, it's like...
00:56:36Gosh, it's just the name of it.
00:56:37Yeah.
00:56:37I was wondering if this little animal was, like...
00:56:40No, I don't know what this mascot is named.
00:56:42I also love that it has little hearts on the packaging.
00:56:45It's like, oh, it's cute.
00:56:46That's so cool.
00:56:50Rosquillas Calena.
00:56:51So I am from a little town called Palmira, but the closest city is Cali.
00:56:57Mmm.
00:56:59So that's why I love it so much.
00:57:00It reminds me of my hometown.
00:57:02Oh, my God.
00:57:02Okay, what did you think?
00:57:03It's like a...
00:57:11It's a lovely...
00:57:12What's the word I'm looking for?
00:57:14There's a...
00:57:15It's almost like a little corn poppy.
00:57:18It's like halfway between a corn pop and a Cheeto.
00:57:20Yeah.
00:57:20There's a little savoriness, like a Cheeto.
00:57:24That's really good.
00:57:26Oh.
00:57:28It's got a little sweetness to it.
00:57:31Very special.
00:57:32A little sweet.
00:57:32Very, very special.
00:57:34It's so yummy.
00:57:35God.
00:57:36I don't know.
00:57:37I mean, like, I haven't been to Colombia in so long.
00:57:41And, like, getting snacks like this just reminds me of home in a really great way.
00:57:49Like, it's so interesting how food can just connect you to your culture.
00:57:53Yeah.
00:57:53You know?
00:57:54Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:57:55Is there, like,
00:57:57No.
00:58:00How do you get them?
00:58:01Do you have to get them shipped to you?
00:58:03Mm-hmm.
00:58:03Wow.
00:58:04Yeah.
00:58:07Okay.
00:58:07But if anybody knows a restaurant, a Colombian restaurant that y'all fuck with in L.A., hit
00:58:13me up because I'm trying to look for one.
00:58:14Oh, so good.
00:58:21This hot chocolate.
00:58:23Isn't it good?
00:58:23That's really something else.
00:58:25Okay, mani moto.
00:58:27Mani moto.
00:58:30Mani is peanut.
00:58:31Mm-hmm.
00:58:34Mani is peanut, but it's also, kakawate is also a peanut.
00:58:37Kakawate, si.
00:58:39Which I think is such a funny little word.
00:58:41Kakawate.
00:58:41Ooh.
00:58:42Ooh.
00:58:43Okay, that's a lot.
00:58:44Ooh!
00:58:45Right?
00:58:46That's really good.
00:58:48They weren't kidding with the crunch.
00:58:50Mmm.
00:58:50They said, oh, you want a crunch?
00:58:52You getting it.
00:58:54Sound you getting the crunch?
00:58:55¿Qué es el exterior?
00:58:56¿Es como, un dulce o no?
00:58:58No sé.
00:59:00Con mani recubierto con harina de trigo.
00:59:04Mmm.
00:59:07It was like a hard.
00:59:09Mmm.
00:59:10Really tasty.
00:59:10How old is that?
00:59:14So if you're a peanut fan, get you some of this.
00:59:17That is really, really good.
00:59:21There are...
00:59:25So you're getting the Mani Motto, you're getting the cheese, Rosquillas Calenas.
00:59:33Is there any, like, but there's no, like, Colombian restaurants that you know in L.A.?
00:59:38Not that I know, no.
00:59:39I've been to a couple, but they don't hit.
00:59:42They don't hit like the ones in New York.
00:59:44Like, you go to Jackson Heights, that's basically Little Colombia, you know?
00:59:49Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:59:49You are finding some of the best, best Colombian restaurants in New York.
00:59:55Yeah.
00:59:56But there's not really that many Colombian people in L.A.
01:00:02Yeah, it's very odd.
01:00:04It's so good.
01:00:05I mean, like, the food I've had, like, the arepas that, like, our family friend, like, Leticia made.
01:00:10Like, it's so savory and so good and so tasty.
01:00:13But it's also very interesting because there's, like, these huge, I feel like in L.A., there are these huge
01:00:18gastronomic differences between places.
01:00:22We are, we have, we're just laughing, Izzy and our friends are from Honduras.
01:00:26And we'll go out to eat, and we'll eat at some local spots that have, like, Oaxacan or, like, Mexican
01:00:32cuisine more, you know, more largely.
01:00:34And they will get their food spiced at Mexican levels from people just assuming, like, Oga, you want the, and
01:00:42you want the extra dash.
01:00:43And they'll be like, Honduran food.
01:00:47That, you know what?
01:00:48Yes, that is so true.
01:00:49A lot of people assume that because I am Latino or Colombian that I like spicy foods.
01:00:57But I have to tell you, I have zero tolerance for spicy food.
01:01:02If it's even a little spicy, I think a red pepper, bell pepper is too spicy.
01:01:07I don't mess with spice at all.
01:01:09And people are like, wait, but I thought you were Colombian.
01:01:12It's like, yeah, I'm not Mexican.
01:01:14Okay.
01:01:15Okay, I'm Colombian.
01:01:16We have the dullest non-spicy palate ever.
01:01:20Are you kidding me?
01:01:20No.
01:01:21We eat meat.
01:01:22We eat flour.
01:01:24We eat dough.
01:01:25We eat corn.
01:01:25That's what we mess with.
01:01:26At a certain amount of feet above sea level, the spices stop.
01:01:29Period.
01:01:32We don't fuck with spicy food at all.
01:01:35Oh, my God.
01:01:36Wait, do you fuck with spicy food?
01:01:37Not at all.
01:01:38Not at all.
01:01:39Robbie Damon was here the other day.
01:01:41I don't know when we're putting this out in the release order.
01:01:43Robbie Damon was here the other day, and they had fucking Carolina Reaper popcorn for our
01:01:47Constitution save.
01:01:48Why?
01:01:49And I took a bite of this popcorn.
01:01:52I've never had this react to spicy food before.
01:01:53I took it and screamed like I was being stabbed with a knife.
01:01:58Are you serious?
01:01:58Yeah, it's like, okay, much respect for the people who love spicy food.
01:02:03But to me, that is painful.
01:02:05Literally, I understand the, I have come to understand that there are people who possess
01:02:13a palate where there are flavors to the spice.
01:02:18For my, most of my life, I believed that some kind of dare was happening.
01:02:23I was like, oh, this is like people who are like, all natural childbirth.
01:02:28And you're like, whoa, that is, I, but again, if there's something experiential that those
01:02:33people are getting from that experience that's very meaningful to them.
01:02:35Yes.
01:02:35And all power and respect to that.
01:02:37But there is something where it's like, is the pain, and the pain, we love the pain.
01:02:42We love it.
01:02:43I wanna feel my food.
01:02:45I wanna feel my food.
01:02:46I wanna feel my food punching me.
01:02:48I wanna feel like a hand grenade went off in my mouth.
01:02:52I respect you, could not be me.
01:02:54No, couldn't be me.
01:02:55Could not be me.
01:02:56No, I don't wanna pick a fight with my food.
01:02:58I'm sorry.
01:02:58Mm-mm, no.
01:02:59This hot chocolate is so fantastic.
01:03:01I have to say, Oscar, not all Constitution Save segments are created equal.
01:03:08Thank God you came to the show today.
01:03:10They really hurt me sometimes, and this has been purely delightful.
01:03:16And that is Constitution Save.
01:03:23Coming up next, we'll go from our delightful little snack time here to the hard-hitting,
01:03:30fast-paced segment we call Reaction Time.
01:03:37Welcome to Reaction Time.
01:03:39This is the segment where we have put in pairs prompts perfectly designed for our participant.
01:03:47Oh, okay.
01:03:49A little alliteration.
01:03:50A little alliteration.
01:03:51I have pairs of things that I'm gonna list off to you, and it will be your job to respond
01:03:58with your preference of the pair instantaneously.
01:04:02You must respond at once at the end of the pair.
01:04:05Oscar Montoya, are you ready?
01:04:06I'm locked in.
01:04:08Reaction Time.
01:04:09Here we go.
01:04:10Cookies or cream?
01:04:11Cream.
01:04:12Harold or Maude?
01:04:13Harold.
01:04:14Franklin or Sunset?
01:04:15Franklin.
01:04:16Franklin.
01:04:16X-Men or Avengers?
01:04:17X-Men.
01:04:18Pageant Queen or Crafty Queen?
01:04:19Crafty Queen.
01:04:20Ross Matthews or Carson Kressley?
01:04:22Ooh, Ross Matthews.
01:04:23Carson Kressley or Carson Daly?
01:04:24Carson Daly.
01:04:26I'm gonna say Carson Daly.
01:04:27Time Daily or NPR's Tiny Desk Concert?
01:04:30Time Daily.
01:04:31Oh, oh, Time Daily.
01:04:32Time Travel or Parallel Universe?
01:04:34Uh, Parallel Universe.
01:04:36Freddie or Jason?
01:04:37Oh, Freddie.
01:04:38Michael Myers or Mike Myers?
01:04:41Michael Myers.
01:04:42Neve Campbell, respectfully, and with respect we mean it.
01:04:45Neve Campbell or Courtney Cox?
01:04:47Oh, Courtney Cox.
01:04:48Honk Shoe or Me Me Me?
01:04:50Honk Shoe!
01:04:51Manila Luzon or Ben De La Creme?
01:04:54Oh my God, Ben De La Creme?
01:04:56But that is hard.
01:04:57Uh, Ornacea or Lil Pound King?
01:04:58Ornacea.
01:04:59Was the dress blue-black or white-gold?
01:05:01Blue-black.
01:05:02And that's Reaction Time.
01:05:08How'd I do?
01:05:09You did perfectly.
01:05:10Yes!
01:05:1010 out of 10, we did it.
01:05:12Oh, I love it so much.
01:05:15Some of these were heartbreakers.
01:05:16I know!
01:05:18Manila Luzon and Ben De La Creme, they're both incredible.
01:05:21That was lightning fast and we're gonna slow it down
01:05:23and get thoughtful for our final segment.
01:05:25Oh, heartbreaking.
01:05:26Our final segment of Adventuring Academy.
01:05:28Welcome to Insight Check.
01:05:38Welcome to Insight Check, this is where awesome viewers of the show, thank you viewers, have
01:05:43submitted questions for our illustrious guests.
01:05:45That's crazy.
01:05:46We have some amazing questions for Oscar Montoya today.
01:05:48And we will kick it off with Ava T. Thank you, Ava.
01:05:52Oscar, I am constantly impressed by your seemingly unending reserve of joyfulness.
01:05:58Have you always had such a positive attitude or is it something that you've learned how to embrace and exude?
01:06:03Um, that's a great question, Ava.
01:06:07I think I was always, there is a picture of me that I still have, that I'm very young.
01:06:16I'm like maybe four years old and I'm in some like field somewhere in Columbia.
01:06:24And I'm just sort of like in my own world.
01:06:27I'm like playing with myself.
01:06:29It's just a picture of me.
01:06:30It's a far shot of me just sort of like doing this with my arms.
01:06:35Um, and I look back at that picture and I, it just like,
01:06:44that was a kid that I, I was a very odd child in the way that I, I was always
01:06:51like very shy around other people, very quiet, but I always created like worlds in my mind.
01:06:58Yeah.
01:06:59I had this mood ring when I was a kid and that was my best friend.
01:07:04Uh, and I was like, people were like, oh, it's the mood ring boy.
01:07:07You know, like that's what I was known in, in, in school.
01:07:10And it was because I was so like nervous of what other kids,
01:07:19I just saw a lot of like cynicism from other like young kids, like five,
01:07:24six year olds, um, like being mean to other kids and stuff like that.
01:07:27And I was very scared of like receiving a lot of that energy.
01:07:31Um, so I just kept to myself a lot.
01:07:34Uh, and by myself, I like just played, like played in my mind.
01:07:40And that joy that I felt when I was a child is, has been,
01:07:46has been constant, even in my adult self of like, despite having the world fully collapsing in on
01:07:55itself and like just the exterior forces being like incredibly cynical.
01:07:58Like I choose to, to be, to be happy and, and exude joy.
01:08:03I think joy is like incredibly contagious.
01:08:05And, um, like I, we talk about identity a lot.
01:08:10Right.
01:08:11And like, sort of like the joy part is what a lot of people like resonate with,
01:08:17with a lot of stuff that I do here at Dropout.
01:08:19Um, and that is who I am.
01:08:21But again, that is something that I want the world to sort of like,
01:08:25know about me is that like, joy first, like I do everything with joy first.
01:08:31And then everything comes second.
01:08:33So, yeah, it's just something that I've always been and something that I work really
01:08:39hard at maintaining because it's so easy to not be joyful, you know?
01:08:45There's a thought, there's something, there's a thread that I'm like putting
01:08:48through the episode in this conversation that I think is like, that seems clear to
01:08:53me that I really resonates with me, which is, you know, we began this episode talking
01:08:58about identity and we're now talking about joyfulness.
01:09:02I think of you as a very joyful person, but like you're saying, it's something you choose.
01:09:06And I think there's this interesting thing in, in the question here.
01:09:09Like, is it, is it intrinsic or have you learned to embrace it?
01:09:13And there is a, this question is completely, it feels completely honest and open.
01:09:19But I think it's a question that's based in a world where sometimes there is an assumption
01:09:25that for a thing to be honest, it has to be autonomic or unintentional.
01:09:30Yeah.
01:09:30And I think that what you've explored in a lot of your characters and a lot of your work
01:09:34as a storyteller on this show and other shows as well, is this idea of,
01:09:40you know, I think about Drag Race, you know, RuPaul, you know, we're born naked and the rest
01:09:45is drag, right?
01:09:46Mm-hmm.
01:09:46Where it's like, hey, this idea that intention is not authentic is flawed.
01:09:56Yeah.
01:09:56Me putting this stuff on, me crafting myself, far from being inauthentic,
01:10:02is the most authentic, right?
01:10:05That is Poppy's persona's whole deal.
01:10:08Whole deal.
01:10:08Is that as a drag queen, Poppy is more real than out of drag, you know?
01:10:15Like, that is who Poppy is, you know?
01:10:17Making the intentional choice to bring joy, which I feel very similarly where my happiness
01:10:23in life is totally authentic, but it doesn't mean I'm not choosing at it or it doesn't mean
01:10:27that sometimes it's not a little bit of a challenge.
01:10:30I, the way I think about it sometimes is almost like, hey, the one person I'm guaranteed to
01:10:36spend a lot of time around is me, so let's fucking keep it trucking.
01:10:41Literally.
01:10:41And, like, the idea that I would be bringing a downer energy around, the first victim of
01:10:48that's going to be me.
01:10:49Yeah.
01:10:49I'm going to, like, I'm around.
01:10:51You're going to be hanging out with yourself a whole lot, you know?
01:10:53A whole lot.
01:10:54And who would you want to be hanging out with?
01:10:55Right, if I'm a bummer all the time, it's like, okay, that's now my reality.
01:11:00Yeah.
01:11:01And I think that there's a, in your answer to that question of, like, who I chose to be,
01:11:09I just think that within this question is something that really relates to all the conversations
01:11:14we've had about identity, which is just rebelling against the idea that choosing who I want to be,
01:11:24that choice would make something inauthentic.
01:11:26Because there's, I know the thought process by which people get there, they go, well,
01:11:30if you're choosing, isn't it artifice?
01:11:32Yeah.
01:11:32Like, if you're choosing, aren't you fabricating?
01:11:35You're constructing.
01:11:36You're constructing.
01:11:36Yeah.
01:11:37But the things, you know, like, I live in a house.
01:11:40It was constructed.
01:11:41It's very real.
01:11:43And I made that house.
01:11:44I made that house.
01:11:45It's the one I wanted to live in it.
01:11:46Yes.
01:11:47It's a house that I want to live in, that I want to make pretty and nice for me to
01:11:52live in,
01:11:53right?
01:11:53Because you are living with yourself more than anything else.
01:11:57I had, like, dropout fans are incredible.
01:12:01I love, I love dropout fans.
01:12:04Y'all are insanely generous and kind, especially the queer ones.
01:12:12I'll do anything for my queer dropout fans.
01:12:15I'm not even joking.
01:12:16I did have an interaction with a fan who was, like, very, like, meant super well.
01:12:22Yeah.
01:12:22And was like, oh, my God, the biggest feedback that I'll get from people meeting me in person
01:12:27is like, wow, you're really as nice as you present on camera, which is such an interesting,
01:12:34hi, it's such a, like, for me, just like, what the hell?
01:12:39Yeah.
01:12:40To think that, like, all of that was artifice.
01:12:42Like, baby, the camera don't lie.
01:12:44You know what I mean?
01:12:44Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:12:45And I had one person be like, oh, my gosh, you're just as nice as you are on camera.
01:12:49A little too nice, to be honest.
01:12:51Like, I feel like people might be taking advantage of you sometimes.
01:12:54But, and like, totally meant it as a compliment, I think.
01:12:59Yeah.
01:12:59But, like, there was something about that that I was like, oh, my gosh.
01:13:04To navigate this world with a sense of, like, being nice or being joyful opens the door for
01:13:15people to sort of steal or, like, corrupt that.
01:13:19Like, it's an open invitation for people to, like, corrupt it with cynicism is such an interesting take to me.
01:13:28Like, they really do see, like, joyfulness, kindness, optimistic-ness.
01:13:37Is that a word?
01:13:38Optimism.
01:13:38Yeah.
01:13:39As, like, an opportunity to corrupt.
01:13:42There's two things there that are striking to me.
01:13:44Number one is the part that I want to agree with you on and being like, oh, do you think
01:13:48I'm, like,
01:13:48easy to take advantage of because I strive to be kind?
01:13:51You shouldn't assume that.
01:13:53I'll kill you.
01:13:55Yeah, the baby.
01:13:56I'm the most dangerous person.
01:13:57Baby, I'm layered.
01:13:58Yeah.
01:13:58It ain't a two-dimensional character.
01:14:00I'm a sweetie pie, but watch your back.
01:14:02You know, like, but the other thing I want to say that doesn't get talked about it a lot is,
01:14:08do you think you're, and I don't know this person, let's not make it about this person,
01:14:12but for those out there, do you think being cranky is protecting you from being taken advantage of?
01:14:18Yes.
01:14:19I, I, I.
01:14:19It's not.
01:14:20Yes, I agree.
01:14:22But I feel like some, some, like again, why are people, I think like the cynicism is a shell people
01:14:29put on to be like, it all goes back to, babe, it goes back to identity.
01:14:33It's like, let me be a curmudgeon so people can't know the real me so they cannot take advantage
01:14:38of me.
01:14:39And like, I don't know, I like to live in a world, I like to navigate in a world where
01:14:43like people aren't taking advantage of people.
01:14:45Like that isn't the default, like people are appreciating you and celebrating you for who
01:14:51you are, you know?
01:14:52Um, I don't know people's lived in experiences, you know, like that's, that's true to their
01:14:58own experience.
01:14:58But for me.
01:15:00Yeah.
01:15:01I, I, I don't live that way.
01:15:03I remember even speaking, I was, I had a conversation with a teacher at UCB one time.
01:15:07I, the notes I got as a teacher at UCB is I was very encouraging.
01:15:10And a teacher gave me a hard time one time being like, you're a, you're a soft teacher.
01:15:17And I remember, and I remember talking to this person, cause I had taken over one of this
01:15:23person's classes and I went, you conflating your, at times, rudeness or abusiveness to
01:15:31your students as, forget constructive, as challenging is really misinformed.
01:15:39You run a mean class and you run an easy class.
01:15:43And, uh, the fact that I'm encouraging to my students doesn't mean that last week I
01:15:48didn't make someone start a scene eight times.
01:15:51I said, start it again, right?
01:15:53Let's run back.
01:15:53You're doing great.
01:15:54We're gonna do it again.
01:15:55You can get this right.
01:15:56You know, like the, the, the idea that there, there are these correlations between whether
01:16:00a person is formidable or whether a person has a high standard even.
01:16:04Yep.
01:16:04It's a difference between me taking that person's class and being like, oh, you're right.
01:16:09I'm not good at this.
01:16:10I'm just gonna do this and give up versus taking your class.
01:16:14And it's like, I'm going to do this again because he believes in me.
01:16:17Yeah.
01:16:18And he's not bullshitting me.
01:16:19There is, that's the thing.
01:16:20It's like, just because I'm kind doesn't mean that I'm going to lie to you.
01:16:24Yeah.
01:16:24You know, like, yes, you are saying do it again.
01:16:28Yeah.
01:16:28You can do this.
01:16:30Just giving that person hope.
01:16:32It's so effortless to look at someone who's made a mistake.
01:16:36Mm-hmm.
01:16:36And you can frame it as going like, that was a mistake.
01:16:40It was really ill-advised to do that.
01:16:41And actually, I've already covered why you shouldn't do that.
01:16:44Mm-hmm.
01:16:45That might be true.
01:16:46You can also just say, hey, so, so in that moment, do you notice what happened to the scene?
01:16:52Rather than being like, you broke a rule.
01:16:54Yeah.
01:16:54Being like, you know what happened to the scene?
01:16:56That later stuff, where it got hard, relates back to this choice.
01:17:00And by the way, I understand why you made that choice.
01:17:03Like, you're not a fool.
01:17:05You said no in that moment in that scene, because you wanted a little bit of power or control.
01:17:11Mm-hmm.
01:17:11But remember that instinct, because you're going to have that impulse again,
01:17:15and it's counterintuitive, and this class is hard.
01:17:18Otherwise, we wouldn't charge you to take it.
01:17:20Yes, exactly.
01:17:21Like, you know, like, I'm on your side.
01:17:22It's so easy to say the same shit and just say it from a place of understanding
01:17:26and actually giving people tools versus going, well, you're a fool.
01:17:31Yes.
01:17:31You know, like, we have, I want to get one last question in here, if we can,
01:17:35before we run out of time, because this is a great question.
01:17:38This one is from Crime Trash.
01:17:40Thanks, Crime Trash.
01:17:41Love that name.
01:17:42Love that name.
01:17:43As a queer Mexican, I love to see other Latinas at the table.
01:17:47I often give my characters Spanish last names and make fantasy folklore based on real Latin folklore.
01:17:52What are the ways that represent your identity in games?
01:17:56And we've talked about this on the episode already,
01:17:59but I also wanted to think about it because there is specifically,
01:18:03I think, this beautiful question here about when you occupy multiple identities,
01:18:11all of which deserve more exploration than traditional media gives them,
01:18:16and thinking about how those work in tandem.
01:18:20And in what ways, like, here's what it feels like to explore this facet of my identity,
01:18:26here's what it feels like to explore this facet of my identity,
01:18:27and here's how they help explore each other.
01:18:29Yes.
01:18:30I think, like, ultimately, it's, I don't know, like, even just hearing, like,
01:18:38that there's, I'm getting emotional, like, people of color that are queer,
01:18:43and doing this is so beautiful because, you know, like, when I was starting to do this stuff,
01:18:48I didn't think it was for me at all because I didn't see anybody at all that looked like me
01:18:54at a table.
01:18:55And then when I did a Court of Fame Flowers, I looked around me and I was like,
01:18:58there's so many people of color and there's people that look like me
01:19:03and that I'm able to tell my stories and not be judged by them, you know?
01:19:08Like, just life. Like, life. Like, you say your truth and people are like, that's not right.
01:19:15That's not correct. That's not the right way to be brown. That's not the right way to be queer.
01:19:22That's not the right way to do anything, you know?
01:19:26And it makes you invisible.
01:19:30It silences you. It silences your creativity. So just hearing brown people of color, like,
01:19:40doing this is like, I don't know. Like, I never, you know, it's just like I never expected to
01:19:47hear from people and, like, them tell their own stories at a table and have it mean something and
01:19:56resonate and not bending to the status quo of what is the right way to play this.
01:20:03I bring myself to everything that I do. It's impossible for me not to.
01:20:12My experiences are so unique and important and a lot of it just bleeds out into the table, whether
01:20:19they're intentional or not. So having those things, having, like, Latine last names, having
01:20:26a little bit of your own flavor into the story, making, just having a little detail of an outfit
01:20:34that resonates with you is so important in storytelling, but also about making it meaningful
01:20:40to you as however you identify that and having people see that, process that, and recognize.
01:20:52That's the thing. It's the recognition of being like, whoa, I do that too.
01:20:58Yeah.
01:20:58And I'm also a brown person and I'm also queer. Or, whoa, I do that too. And this is coming
01:21:05from
01:21:05a person that isn't in my shared experience, but I can relate to them, you know? Like,
01:21:12I just think storytelling is so powerful and it's beyond just us telling stories to keep us
01:21:20entertained. I think it's a way for us to expel our demons, like, say our frustrations about the world,
01:21:28um, be a filter of the universe and let it out through a specific character. All of that is
01:21:36important. All of that is meaningful. And what's more important is that it's a bunch of people
01:21:40sharing, telling stories together and having your experience relate to someone whose experiences are
01:21:44totally different or maybe the same and have it feel unique. It's so powerful. It feels so silly to
01:21:53cry about it, but it is the most powerful way of telling stories. You are not reading from a script
01:22:00someone wrote you. You are not, like, saying lines and, like, landing marks. And, you know,
01:22:05this is just you and your friends coming together, telling stories. You own that. And to me,
01:22:12there's something so powerful in all of this. So powerful.
01:22:18I love you so much. Did I just cry? You should! You fucking should!
01:22:28Well, you have to know, you have to know that it is such a beautiful thing to watch.
01:22:37Like, you have to know how much of a beacon you are for so many people. And what's incredible is
01:22:43there's people like Crime Trash, who's written to us. I love you, Crime Trash.
01:22:48Love you, Crime Trash. Incredible question. But, like, you light, you fill up this space and this
01:22:57hobby and with your storytelling and your talent, this incredible beacon that, you know, I think the
01:23:05number one thing art can do and the thing that makes me feel like what I do has value is
01:23:11anytime I've
01:23:12made someone feel not alone. And there are so many people who look to you and have their example of
01:23:20someone who looks like them and has lived experience like them. And it's also so beautiful. Like,
01:23:27so many people that I meet when I, like, go to a convention or I see something come up and
01:23:33talk to me
01:23:34about Rue. Or come up and talk to me about the, like, that within this context, right? Like,
01:23:42and what I love about that is that someone can look at you and say, oh my god, my exact
01:23:48identity
01:23:49and experience is being spoken to by someone who is an unbelievably talented storyteller. And then look
01:23:54around and see people that they might have imagined complete, in a complete bubble outside of their
01:24:01reality, looking over and seeing what you've done that speaks so profoundly to an identity and to a
01:24:08lived experience. And at the very same time, goes thundering into the mainstream of a universal
01:24:15experience, but by its specificity. And that those people then get to look around and go, all these
01:24:22people are moved by this thing that I would have assumed they couldn't get. But it's like, that's the
01:24:28thing is your, I think your power as a storyteller is such that people that have that experience know
01:24:36that they have someone that absolutely relates to them who can tell a story that they identify with.
01:24:42And in telling that specific story, simultaneously tell a story that invites everybody to participate
01:24:49in this massive shared humanity. I've seen it time and time again. It's incredibly special and very
01:24:55grateful. Thank you. I just, yeah, ultimately, I just want to say that like, the table is for everyone.
01:25:01I think like, if, if I listen to the people who are like, nah, you can't do this. And like,
01:25:08you know,
01:25:08when I was starting to do improv, there were a lot of people was like, yeah, your version of funny
01:25:14doesn't quite resonate with the mumblecore of it all. I would not be doing that. But I knew that I,
01:25:22I, I, this was what brought me joy. And this was fun. And ultimately, I found a community of people
01:25:27that were like, yes, I see you. I, there he is again. Um, okay, I'll be out in a second.
01:25:33Um,
01:25:35and I, then to do actual play and having people be like, who is it? You know, I'll say this
01:25:43too,
01:25:43like, not for nothing, but like, when Rue and Hob were like, in this thing, I got a lot of
01:25:48feedback
01:25:48from people being like, who does this guy you think he is? Romancing Brennan Lee Mulligan,
01:25:53you know what I mean? You are not helping me out. A lot of haters out there. Um, and yes,
01:25:58who did I think I was? I don't know, but it happened. And you know, like, I would have left,
01:26:03I would have been like, so intimidated by the table. But like, because there was,
01:26:07because ultimately it's about joy and the fact that I was supported by the people in my community,
01:26:14kept doing this for me. So I just think about every person that has been told no and does not
01:26:20feel supported. Like, I hear you. I am your support system. Like, keep doing it if it makes you happy.
01:26:29Just keep doing it. Keep doing it. There is room for everyone at the table.
01:26:36I love Oscar Montoya. I love Brennan Lee Mulligan. And it is such an honor and a privilege anytime I
01:26:44get to spend even a moment with you, let alone that we have gotten to tell these stories together.
01:26:49And I am just so grateful for you. And I say that both knowing how special your work is for
01:26:58other
01:26:59people, and also very selfishly, because you make me happy. But you make me happy too.
01:27:05Oscar, where should people find you on the internet? Where can they look for you?
01:27:09Well, you can simply follow me on Instagram at Ozzymo, O-Z-Z-Y-M-O, for more stuff.
01:27:18That's pretty much it. Gorgeous. More stuff. We love it. And check out Dimension 20 Gladlands.
01:27:23What a joy it was to make. And with all the love in our heart, Oscar Montoya,
01:27:28thank you for being here today. I love you. Love you too. We'll see you next time on Adventuring Academy.
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