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00:00We shouldn't have to suffer in silence. We should feel like we're going to be heard.
00:03Vicki Patterson spent five years trying to get a diagnosis for PMDD.
00:07When it finally came, it was a moment of relief.
00:10I told the doctor about my symptoms, you know, and she listened and she said,
00:14these aren't normal. This isn't a normal cycle. These aren't normal symptoms of a period.
00:19It sounds like you've got PMDD. And I broke down and cried. It felt like I could finally
00:24breathe for the first time. To know you're not just slowly going insane or slipping into insanity,
00:29like there is something wrong with you.
00:31Vicki is a huge TV star who has candidly shared her health journey online.
00:35She's won I'm a Celebrity, captured the nation's hearts on Strictly and spent over a decade in
00:40the spotlight. She's now on a mission to improve women's lives.
00:44We shouldn't have to suffer in silence. We should feel like we're going to be heard.
00:47We shouldn't feel like we're going to be dismissed or wrote off as some hysterical woman,
00:51over-emotional, all these things. They're tropes and they're boring and they're stopping women
00:55getting the help they need.
00:56Make sure you follow the show on your podcast player or hit subscribe if you're watching
01:00on YouTube. I hope you enjoy today's chat with Vicki Patterson.
01:03Vicki Patterson, TV personality, radio host, and one of the driving forces behind PMDD awareness
01:09in the UK. Welcome to Well Enough.
01:11Thank you so much for having us.
01:13You've very kindly agreed to come on and talk to me today about your experiences with PMDD,
01:18which is premenstrual dysphoric syndrome. Now this is categorized as a very severe form
01:22of premenstrual syndrome, PMS. It affects roughly five to eight percent of people who menstruate
01:28and the symptoms are very severe. And in some ways, it's almost an understatement that we call
01:34it PMS. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about when you first noticed these symptoms
01:39and when you first started to think something might be wrong.
01:42I think I had quite normal menstrual cycle and periods in my early 20s.
01:49Nothing particularly debilitating, nothing to report. And then as I got older, I think it was
01:55sort of towards my late 20s, early 30s, I felt like I was really struggling.
02:02Um, and it wasn't until maybe early to mid 30s that I realized that I needed help and started
02:12to try and seek proper medical, medical help for what I was going through, I suppose.
02:16And what were the initial symptoms that you started to notice? Were they way out of the
02:21range of normal PMS symptoms?
02:23I felt like I was going insane. And that was honestly one of the biggest triggers, the biggest
02:30things that made me think. And I knew it was related to me period because it was always around,
02:35um, it was around me luteal phase and when I was due to come on me period. So I knew
02:39it had to be
02:40related to me cycle. Um, and I feel, I felt emotionally dysregulated. I felt exhausted, anxious.
02:51I felt intense rage, um, followed by like periods of like just utter disassociation.
03:00So it was always around, like I say, me luteal phase and those were some of my symptoms.
03:05Um, but that's, I suppose, what, what made me try and, uh, try and get a diagnosis or try and
03:13get some answers at least.
03:15I've heard you use an analogy before where you talk about working really hard and then all of a sudden
03:20just feeling like everything comes crashing down and you've got a really busy life. You know, you're
03:23on TV, you're, you're, you know, traveling, doing all of these different things. How did you manage or how do
03:29you
03:29manage when you start to feel these really intense mental health symptoms?
03:33Yeah. So that is the best way I've ever heard PMDD described. Um, it's something I read somewhere and
03:40it's like building a sandcastle of good habits and you spend your time nurturing your relationships
03:47for like working hard and treating people well and building this incredible castle. And then
03:54a wave comes and takes it all away and it leaves nothing but hopelessness and despair in its wake.
04:02And just as you start to rebuild, the wave crashes again. That's the nature of a cycle. Um, and anyone,
04:08any woman who's dealing with PMDD will be familiar with that. It feels essentially never ending. Um,
04:16and you know, I feel like all women, every woman I know has got a lot going on, you know,
04:22whether
04:23they're, whether they're mothers, stepmothers, pet parents, busy, busy work women, where they just,
04:30we've just got a lot on. Um, so I don't think my situation is any different. Um, I think for
04:38me
04:39in the absence of proper treatment, which is where I'm currently at, I found the best way that I can
04:45deal
04:45with my PMDD and how debilitating it is, how it affects me is through communication. So I've
04:50always advocated for, um, honest and open lines of communication with everybody in your life.
04:56So whether that's your partner, the people you work with, your family, your friends, everybody,
05:01because you aren't going to be yourself. For me, my symptoms started about three to seven days
05:06before my period. It ended up being seven to 10. And now it's two weeks, two weeks of the month.
05:13I'm not myself. Gosh. Two weeks, half of me life. Um, so I have to talk to people. I have
05:20to tell me
05:21PR, like, please no live TV that week. You know, I have to say to me husband, like, I'm not
05:26going to be
05:28the person you fell in love with, I suppose. Yeah. On this. Sorry. Um, I'm not going to be the
05:36person
05:36you fell in love with for a little bit. Like, I'm going to be harder to love, basically.
05:40I mean, two weeks out of every month, year after year after year. I mean, when you went to the
05:45doctor, did you say to them, like, you know, help me, what is going on here? And did they listen
05:50to
05:50you? Um, so I spent about five years trying to get a diagnosis, which, um, I actually made a film
05:59with, uh, Good Morning Britain last year, um, looking at medical misogyny and some of women's,
06:05women's experiences within, within the NHS, um, trying to get diagnosis for various different,
06:11um, women's health issues from adenomyosis to endometriosis, fibroids, PMDD, everything.
06:19And like, there was one incredible common theme, which was we had all been gaslit. We'd all been
06:27dismissed. We'd all been, I suppose, convinced that these things were normal when they aren't,
06:37you know, in a lot of cases, they're not a woman's, a woman's pain is not normal. Um, and I'm,
06:42I'm
06:42loath to criticize the NHS because I believe free healthcare should be available for everybody.
06:47I think it's an incredible institution, but, um, inarguably they are struggling and they
06:55are completely overstretched. And there is a definitely in need of better funding when it
07:02comes to women's health in particular. So I don't want to be particularly disparaging,
07:06but anything I'm saying, I'm sure people will understand. Um, five years it took me. And over
07:14that time I was told women's, women's issues, you know, women's issues, in big air quotes,
07:22women's issues, they get worse as you get older. Like that's just normal. Okay. Um, it's just a
07:29period. Every woman gets one. They're just dealing with a little better than you are.
07:34Oh, so you were made to feel that you just weren't, weren't dealing with it well.
07:38Oh no, I was absolutely gaslit and thinking I was weak. Um, have you tried losing weight?
07:44That's an interesting one.
07:45One that unfortunately is quite common.
07:48Yeah.
07:48So after enough doctors told me things like this, you do feel embarrassed. You do feel
07:54weak. You do feel ashamed for wasting their time, for making a show of yourself, for not
08:01being able to deal with something that every other woman can. So essentially you go quiet.
08:07And I think that's what they rely on to be honest.
08:09Hmm. This idea of just put up and shut up.
08:12Exactly.
08:13I mean, when we brush this off, it does create a system of silence, doesn't it? And it means
08:21that we're all, you know, so many women are dealing with pain day in, day out. What does
08:26it take though? You know, does it get to the point where you are desperate, where you're
08:31writhing around in agony on the floor? I mean, what made a doctor finally say, looks like PMDD,
08:36here's what we can do.
08:37You're absolutely right. I think remaining silent and, you know, forcing these, like,
08:44being forced into silence or into shame or whatever, it does perpetuate this cycle.
08:51And unfortunately it's a really common one. Like I met a woman who'd spent 26 years trying
08:56to get an adenomyosis diagnosis, which is fun to say, but not fun to have. Um, so yeah,
09:04I, I'm not anything special. The things I'm talking about are completely common. Medical
09:09misogyny is unfortunately rife. Um, and I'm in an incredibly privileged position. So I was
09:18able to go private. Do you know what it was? The turning point is I started talking on social
09:23media and I felt like I needed a place to vent and like good or bad. I know, um, social
09:30media is essentially a bit bittersweet and a double edged sword, but I feel like the community
09:34I've built is full of like quite strong, quite empathetic, compassionate, understanding women
09:39predominantly. Um, a couple, a couple of spicy ones swept through the net every so often, but
09:46I suppose that's to be expected. But yeah, the, the community I've built there, I'm, I'm very
09:50proud of. Um, and I was speaking about me periods, me cycle, me symptoms and how I felt because I
09:57felt
09:57like that was the only place I was heard and understood, which is criminal really when you
10:03think I'd gone to say however many doctors. It's such a common story as well, isn't it?
10:07So many people turning to community online because they simply cannot feel validated in a doctor's
10:12office, which is exactly where they should be feeling validated. Exactly. And they're not,
10:15but like you say, it is common. So I was talking about there on, I was talking there about my
10:19symptoms and stuff. And it was, that was when I first heard about PMDD, a woman said, um,
10:24your symptoms don't sound normal. It sounds like you've got PMDD. And a couple of women echoed those
10:29sentiments as well. And I remember, I think that sort of like stiffened me resolve. Um, and I said,
10:35right, I'm going to go private, incredibly privileged to be able to do that. And I'm aware of that.
10:40Um, and I went and I told the doctor about my symptoms, you know, dark thoughts, exhaustion,
10:48crippling anxiety, um, catastrophizing, like the list goes on and it manifests itself different
10:54in absolutely everybody. Those are just some of mine. Um, and she listened and she said,
10:59these aren't normal. This isn't a normal cycle. These aren't normal symptoms of a period. It sounds
11:04that you've got PMDD. And I broke down and cried number one, because I am a crier, very emotional,
11:12but number two, I just felt so liberated and so heard for the first time. Like the constant
11:20demoralizing process of going to a doctor and being dismissed and being gaslit and feeling
11:27subsequently ashamed and like, you know, weak and all those things, like it weighs heavy on,
11:31on somebody. So to finally feel heard and have, have a reason for me behavior, have this condition,
11:39it felt like I could finally breathe for the first time to not, to know you're not just slowly
11:45going insane or slipping into insanity. Like there is something wrong with you
11:50that affects loads of women, you know, um, I think was a real breakthrough moment for me.
11:57Um, I don't think I truly realized, like, you know, it wasn't going to be a, an easy fix,
12:03a one pill fits all sort of, um, situation. But ultimately in that moment, I was really grateful
12:11for my diagnosis. Well, giving something a name is so powerful, isn't it? And, and you know,
12:16what you say is true. You've got the diagnosis, what lies on the other side, it doesn't magically mean
12:21just cause it's got a name, it's going to go away. But you know, I do think there is so
12:25much power
12:25and actually being able to say, this is what's going on with me. Yeah. But what do you think
12:30needs to change to make sure that other women get to have that experience sooner? So they're not
12:35waiting, you know, five, 10, 26 years. How long have you got? I'm actually working on a women's
12:41health strategy with Wes Street and the Minister for Health and his team. Um, I met with him last year,
12:48um, and he had had a member of his family go through something similar, experience medical
12:53misogyny. And subsequently, I feel like he has a real vested interest. Um, I feel like we have a
12:58real ally there. He seems incredibly committed to improving the gynecological and women's health space
13:05for any women suffering. For me, I feel like there needs to be better funding and better research.
13:11I feel like there needs to be better education for young women starting as early as like school.
13:17Like I would have had far much more courage in my conviction. I would have been able to advocate
13:22for myself so much better going into those doctors. Maybe it's even me early twenties,
13:27you know, I would have spotted something was abnormal with me periods, with me behaviour,
13:30with me moods, had I understood periods properly. Did you even know what a luteal phase was when
13:34you were a kid? Cause I don't think I did. Are you joking? I think I was probably in my
13:37early thirties.
13:38Yeah. Like honestly, you get one lesson with some like off-duty science teacher with a cucumber
13:44and a condom and you're good to go for your adult life. And they split you up as well, don't
13:48they?
13:48Which I always find really interesting because I think young boys, they need to know about periods.
13:54They need to be allies to their partners. They need to be allies to their family members.
13:58If they don't know what's going on, you know, that's also half the battle.
14:01I couldn't agree with you more. And it feeds into part of this wider conversation that we're all
14:05having at the moment due to the the manosphere and Louis Theroux documentary. But if we're going
14:11to raise empathetic, compassionate, kind, understanding young men, they have to be able
14:17to be good partners, good brothers, good sons. And that is part of understanding what a woman has to
14:22go through. It is so imperative that young women understand what is happening in their bodies,
14:27can recognise when something is wrong, can advocate for themselves, can speak from a place of authority
14:32and autonomy. However, like if we don't have allies in men, if those men grow up to be doctors,
14:38partners, whatever, like we are already at a disadvantage. So I think separating young people
14:43and teaching girls about periods and boys about condoms is archaic. And we need to roll with the
14:49times a little bit. So, yeah, I agree. They need better education, both girls and boys. I mentioned
14:55before, better funding. I also think they need to be better resources available. Quite clearly, one of the
15:00things I noticed women struggle with the most is long wait times to see a gynecologist or a specialist.
15:06We've got women waiting over 20 years to be told what's wrong with them. That's 20 years living in
15:11pain, in fear, in uncertainty, in agony. This doesn't just affect like, this doesn't just affect your mood,
15:20it affects your life, your relationships, your job, your quality of life. So I think we need to reduce
15:26those times, whether that's through different diagnostic pathways, community hubs, online
15:30diagnosis, I don't know. But I know there needs to be improvement within that space.
15:36Yeah, couldn't agree more. And you're right, it's manifold, isn't it? There are so many different
15:39layers and threads. It's not just one particular catalyst. It's so many things across the board
15:44that require like quite severe systems change.
15:47Yeah, it needs, do you know what, predominantly it needs funding. And women's voices need to be heard.
15:54We were speaking earlier, like we're half the population.
15:57Yeah, more than half, just over half.
16:00Good for us, you know.
16:01The majority.
16:02We're a majority and yet we're still being ignored repeatedly. Where symptoms are being dismissed,
16:09where pain is being sidelined. It's criminal.
16:13Yeah, it doesn't really make any sense. It doesn't. But I feel like again, going back to
16:17that put up and shut up mentality. I always think like if a woman goes to the doctors,
16:22you best believe she's been struggling for a while. I feel like for a woman to make a fuss,
16:28it has to be. I always think if a woman's complaining to me, it has to be bad. That's
16:32always how I feel. And I know I struggled for ages before I did something. Because you're meant
16:37to believe you're meant to be strong and brave and all these things. And
16:41actually, like we shouldn't have to suffer in silence. We should feel like we're going to be
16:45heard. We shouldn't feel like we're going to be dismissed or wrote off as some hysterical woman,
16:49over emotional, all these things. They're tropes and they're boring. And they're stopping women
16:54getting the help they need. You know, what have you used? What kind of treatments and solutions
16:57have you managed to use in order to manage your condition? As I mentioned before, like, I think it
17:02would be really lovely if there was this like one size fits all pill. There's one direct course of
17:09treatment that you sort of undertook when you got PMDD. And then, you know, you just went back to being
17:15this bright, shiny, lovely version of yourself and every day was candy floss and kittens. But
17:19unfortunately, it's very difficult to treat. It's like essentially a hormone imbalance.
17:28And so for about the last three, four years, I've been undergoing various different treatments and
17:33options. It starts with birth control. As we know, they balance and affect your hormones differently.
17:41None of it worked for me. I've also tried CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy. I find having the tools
17:49to be able to deal with your dark thoughts and your catastrophizing and spiraling and things like that,
17:53ultimately make you slightly more prepared, but they don't treat it. Just makes you a more
18:00functional, capable person. The next course of action is normally antidepressants. And that's where
18:10I'm at now. I feel frustrated because ultimately I don't consider myself to be depressed.
18:17I don't feel like there should be any stigma around someone who takes antidepressants or anything
18:21like that. This isn't coming from a place of shame. This is coming from wanting to be treated for what
18:25is actually wrong with me, what is actually my condition. It's an interesting thought,
18:28isn't it? Because whenever I speak to people about menopause, people who are experiencing huge dips in
18:35mood because of menopause are experiencing huge hormone drops, but they're often prescribed
18:39antidepressants for that and sometimes say, oh, I'm not sure this is right for me. So it's a really
18:43difficult one, isn't it? It's really difficult. And this is what I mean about these conditions
18:47needing more funding, more research. They don't clearly don't understand what it is properly.
18:53If they did, they would offer us something different to antidepressants, you know?
18:57So I've got a really difficult decision to make. My last appointment was last week. I went because
19:04I feel a bit of a fraud. I'm sitting here pontificating on this subject and I'm literally
19:09myself in the trenches. I don't have answers for any women struggling. I'm trying to navigate it
19:13myself. But I think them hearing you speaking about it is half the battle, isn't it? Anyone hearing you
19:18say, I'm going through this, validates their experiences. That was always my main reason for
19:24wanting to speak out and, you know, use me platform a bit responsibly was that I wanted
19:27women to not feel so alone. And I always remember that feeling of having me diagnosis, being told
19:32you've got PMDD and it was a relief. So I suppose that does drive us in that sense. But ultimately,
19:37like I wish I could provide these women with some proper reprieve and say, I tried this,
19:41it was great for me and make sure you get that. And like, but honestly, it is a bit of
19:47a struggle.
19:48And it is quite demoralizing to be however many years down the line that I am about five and still
19:53not have an answer and still just have the same things suggested. In all honesty, I am leaning
20:01more towards entertaining antidepressants. My symptoms are getting worse. The time that I suffer
20:07is getting longer and me quality of life is being affected. The thing that really grinds my ideas is
20:14the fog, the brain fog that sets in with it. And like, you can't articulate yourself properly.
20:21It affects my work, affects my relationships, affects everything. So yeah, that's potentially
20:26why I am looking for, looking harder at solutions that I wouldn't have potentially entertained before.
20:32Just want a bit of reprieve.
20:35Completely understandable. And I also think, you know, no, no one is asking you to say,
20:39here are the answers. You know, if anyone listening is concerned, I would recommend going to visit your
20:43GP, you know, going to speak with a medical professional. But you also mentioned relationships.
20:48And I want to come back to that because I wonder what it's like to navigate something like PMDD as
20:54a couple. How do you find that that shows up within your relationship with your partner?
20:59It'd be dead easy for me to sit here and say like, my husband is perfect. Our relationship is
21:04incredible. We navigate this as a team, but I would honestly be bollocks. Yeah.
21:08Like I, it's very, like cards on the table. I think it's a very hard thing for men to understand,
21:14most men, because they don't have periods, they don't have hormone ebbs and flows the way we do.
21:21And ultimately trying to get them to understand and be empathetic. It's difficult. Erkan is a brilliant
21:28husband and a great man, but it has taken a lot of time to help him understand what's happening
21:35in my body and why I am the way I am. We've been together about eight years now.
21:42And for the, for the most part of that, for the majority of that, I've absolutely been dealing
21:46with PMDD. I know I have, I know I have, whether I knew what it was or not. And we
21:52are finally in a
21:52place now where I understand it better, so I can help him understand it better. But it's been a,
21:59it's been a slog. It's been a journey to get where he are. Now I'll say, oh, and I'm about
22:04two weeks
22:05out from my period and I'm like getting tearful at like adverts on the telly. And even the sound
22:10of his breathing makes me want to rip his head off. I'll think, ah, luteal is coming. Yeah.
22:16So I'll have a word to them and I'll say, you know, I'm about to come into that really spicy
22:20part
22:20of my period where I'm not myself and I'm really sorry. If there's ever anything I do that upsets you,
22:26please just remind yourself. It's not me. It is my hormones. And like, let's talk about it, you know?
22:30And he goes, oh no, PIMD. PIMD, that's what he calls it. And I say, yeah. And listen, he is
22:36so
22:36understanding. But again, that goes back to what I say about communication. He wasn't always
22:41understanding. He didn't always get it. But now, yeah, I talk to him, I try and help him understand.
22:47And I feel like frustratingly that burden does fall on women again, but without it, they're not going to get
22:53it.
22:53Yeah. I wanted to ask you whether you feel there's a kind of invisible mental load because
22:57you take on so much more in having to educate the people around you in a way, don't you?
23:03Of course there is. But like, not to sound like I'm ready to burn my bra, which there's kind of
23:11in my wheelhouse anyway. But I think, aren't women always the ones with the invisible workload?
23:18Like, is it really anything new? Is this controversial? Is it shocking? No.
23:25It's frustrating that it falls to us. But ultimately, this is out of most men's remit,
23:30all men's remit, you know? And they can be as evolved and progressive and understanding as they
23:36want to be. But they need us to explain it to them. You've chosen to do a new show together,
23:40which is quite an interesting choice, because you could have done your new show,
23:43maybe baby on your own. But actually, you've chosen to do it as a couple. You're in dialogue,
23:48you're talking about all of these different facets of your life. And you're ultimately
23:51talking about this big decision that hangs over so many people in their 30s, which is,
23:55do I want to have kids? If so, what's it going to look like? How does it happen? You know,
24:01lots of people have been very confused for a very long time about what egg freezing looks like,
24:07what a fertility journey looks like, because it's so different for everybody.
24:09Yeah. I wonder if you can tell me a bit more about the show.
24:12Obviously, Mayna got married in 2024, I think it was now. Yes, it'll be two years in September.
24:19Gosh, time flies. And we sort of said, we're going to give ourselves a year to enjoy being married
24:26and travel and spend time with the dogs, nurture our careers and everything else. And then we were
24:30going to make a decision about what the next steps look like for us. And that year just went like
24:35that.
24:35And it does, time flies. I did strictly a goggle box, blah, blah, blah. We did incredible things
24:41with work. And before we knew it, it was definitely becoming the elephant in the room. The fact that we
24:50weren't talking about having children or whether we wanted to. So we decided to make a follow-up to
24:57our wedding show. We really enjoyed the process and I loved letting people into that special,
25:02intimate moment in my life. I think having my background in reality TV, it's made us quite
25:09predisposed to oversharing, for want of a better word. So we decided to make this for a number of
25:15reasons. One, we wanted to navigate it and it lit a bit of a fire underneath us. But two, I
25:22feel really
25:23passionately that women's choices are not respected and celebrated enough, especially when it comes to
25:31fertility and infertility for that matter, which can be an incredibly traumatic and difficult and
25:37complicated thing for a lot of women to go through and navigate. And I still feel like there is far
25:42too
25:42many of these conversations happening in the shadows, predominantly because of the fact that there's so much
25:46stigma and judgment attached to it. But that stigma and that judgment is never going to go away unless
25:51we start having these conversations in the sunlight until we start fostering some empathy for these
25:56people who are going through these things and start, until we start having more candid conversations. So
26:01yeah, we had really like some selfish reasons for wanting to do this show, but also I think some quite
26:07like, quite nice, noble ones as well. And I'm really pleased we did it. It's been an incredible experience.
26:13Yeah, I mean, it's, I think it's great that we're seeing more examples of real people going through
26:19these experiences, because one thing I've noticed is the sheer amount of adverts for egg freezing.
26:26And lots of people don't really understand the process, what it takes, the difference between
26:31freezing eggs, freezing embryos, the success rates, it's kind of a wild west out there. And it's offered
26:39through lots of companies now, oh, just freeze your eggs, you'll be fine. So rather than offering
26:44different types of support or education, it's kind of a band-aid that you stick on something.
26:49I wonder whether you could share a bit about your experience and why you decided to do it. Like,
26:53did you know straight away, right, I'm going to freeze my eggs? It's as simple as that. Or was it,
26:57there was, was there a lot of consideration, research?
27:00And so I froze my eggs when I was about 35. Erk and I had met when I was 31.
27:07And in my opinion,
27:08our relationship was still in its infancy. We were still learning a lot about each other and
27:12ourselves and determining whether we were as serious as we wanted to be, you know, like,
27:21everybody thinks the person they're with at the time is who they're going to be with forever, that
27:24you don't enter into relationships for any other reason. But the practicalities of living together
27:28and working it all out was very different. So I just wanted to give our relationship a chance to
27:33develop naturally before I rushed our timelines. But I was very well aware that even by that point,
27:40my eggs were being referred to as geriatric. Right. It's about 27, 28, they start calling you
27:46geriatric, right? Real punch in the dick. Honestly, it's just the most outdated and problematic
27:53use of language ever, especially because we're discovering things all the time about the fact
27:57that as men get older, actually their sperm quality decreases as well, which no one is shouting about.
28:02So I feel like we need a more sensitive and less toxic language around it, definitely,
28:08because I do think it's all designed to scaremonger women. So yeah, so we had a conversation.
28:14Erk was incredibly supportive. He wasn't ready for children. And honestly, neither was Erk. I still had
28:19things I wanted to achieve in my career. And I still felt quite selfish, which is a horrible thing
28:27to admit about yourself. But it's true. Ultimately, I didn't feel like I was ready to be as selfless as
28:33being a mother requires you to be. So anyway, we went to freeze wet eggs, did it with the London
28:39Women's Medical Clinic. And I feel like it's very important. I acknowledge my privilege here,
28:48because it's not something that's available on the NHS for people who just choose to have children
28:52later in life or thinking about it. And it is expensive. It does require like a bit of time
28:57off work. Like you've got to be flexible, you've got to be financially stable and things like that.
29:02So yeah, it's important that I recognise that. I do look forward to the day that it's more affordable
29:06and accessible to everybody. But ultimately, I'm really grateful we're able to do it.
29:14I felt like for the first time in my life, it was this like moment where I didn't feel like
29:19I was on
29:20this invisible conveyor belt, you know, like this like sort of hamster wheel of like rushing to get
29:26things done, of meeting the right man, of being together long enough, so that no one's judging
29:30you and you know, having the kids at the right, I felt like it was the first time where I
29:35relaxed
29:36and actually was able to just breathe and think this is a little bit of a security blanket. And I
29:42chose to share that journey on social media. Because in my head, I felt like I was doing something
29:46really responsible. Because the only options that have been presented to me as a child, or as a young
29:51woman, or even as a young adult, where you fall in love, you get married and you have kids.
29:58And you saw I sort of saw what happened to the women who did that later, I felt like the
30:02rush to
30:02have them with the wrong person. I'd seen it with me mates, I've nearly done it myself, through this
30:07fear, this in this timeline that was running out this pressure that was put on you. And I thought,
30:13you know, I'm going to document this. So women know that you can have the career and meet the man
30:18later and freeze the eggs and, you know, still have a chance for your future to look how you want
30:25it to look, whether that's child free or whether that's children or whatever.
30:29So yeah, I didn't expect to get the level of hate that I got off the back of it.
30:36And that was all that was a very bitter pill to swallow for me, especially considering I was like
30:42going through the egg freezing process, which is, is quite overwhelming on the body,
30:47can be quite difficult. Not for everyone. Some people find it to be like really manageable.
30:56I, I underestimated it somewhat and having a huge amount of synthetic hormones cursing through your
31:02body, trying to, you know, manipulate your eggs and get them to do what you want them to do.
31:08It left me feeling quite vulnerable and quite delicate, I think. And when you're feeling like
31:14that, the last thing you need is every, like, I suppose, negative opinions about what you are doing.
31:20People are telling us, if he doesn't want to have a kid with you now, he's never going to want
31:24to.
31:25And just, just face it, God doesn't want you to be a mother.
31:29You know, the, I mean, that's very intense, isn't it?
31:32Very intense. You know, the success rate of this is actually really low. Like, it ranged from the
31:37sublime to the ridiculous. And I know you shouldn't take those things to heart. And ultimately,
31:41it's hard not to, though, isn't it? We were talking before the record about the
31:44sheer impact of social media and how if someone says, oh, it doesn't bother me,
31:48they're probably lying. Oh, honestly, they're lying.
31:50You know, we all feel very strongly when someone is critical of us. You know, we can't help that.
31:56And especially when you're sharing something so intimate and emotional. I think you,
32:03you want, you want people to treat you, treat you the same way. You want them to show,
32:09like, a bit of respect and a bit of, like, almost handily with kid gloves. But
32:13maybe that's a bit of an unrealistic expectation for some people on social media. And I learned
32:18the hard way, you know, not to share everything. But there was this moment, I think I came off
32:23just to protect me mental health. Because I was like, listen, what I'm doing is for me,
32:26and maybe I did overshare, you know, and it's not going to be for everyone. And everyone
32:30doesn't have to understand. And that's fine. And I went, curiosity got the better of the cap,
32:34mate, I'm absolutely terrible. I remember sitting there, I think I, I think I deleted the app at
32:38something like eight o'clock on a Thursday. And by nine o'clock, I had it installed, just doing this,
32:43just doing a sneaky stalk on the Friday. And I got this message off a girl, and she'll never know
32:50how much this message meant to me. But she said, I'm really sorry that some people have like bullied
32:56you off social media. All my friends have got kids. I'm in my mid thirties. And I didn't know,
33:06I didn't know if I was going to be a mother. So I froze me eggs. And she went and
33:11I felt so alone,
33:13like no one understood. And every night I would come on and say, you've done your injections. And
33:17I would do at the same time. And I felt like we're doing it together. She was like, so just
33:23so you know,
33:23you are like helping some people. And I thought to myself, you know,
33:31like I am that bitch. I am that bitch. Like I am strong and I am confident. And I am
33:37not going
33:37to let some people who don't understand some women's fertility choices, bully me from doing
33:42what I think is right. And what I think should be spoke about. And these conversations that should
33:47be had in public. And yeah, I don't think that woman will ever know the strength and kindness,
33:51like she sort of showed us and gave us. But for me, it was really pivotal.
33:56Yeah, it's, it's interesting though, isn't it the way that we,
34:01we assume everyone's on board with our choices, or that, you know, they can understand the experience
34:07of what it might be like to be on a fertility journey. And yet every person I speak to,
34:11their experience is so unique to them, and to their circle and to what they're going through.
34:17A lot of people will never really understand what it's like. But I do think having conversations
34:21like this, and you know, you showing up and saying, this is what I did, does help a lot of
34:26people because they're able to peek behind the curtain, look inside, at least see how one person
34:30is handling it. So we've talked a little bit about the, I suppose, the, the nice experience of being
34:37able to feel confident in that you've, you know, you've slowed time down, you, you know, you've,
34:42you've frozen your eggs, you've got this time back. But then I also wonder whether there's an
34:46added layer when talking about the fertility journey with PMDD, because you've given yourself
34:51this time, you've given yourself this silver lining, but then is there a slight worry that
34:56PMDD is going to intersect with the fertility journey too?
34:59In the first episode of Maybe Baby, we talk about my PMDD. Because actually, you know,
35:08I'm not an expert on the topic. I'm navigating this just as much as anyone else is. And this is
35:14the first time in my life I've actively thought about being a mother with PMDD and what that means.
35:20There aren't actually any physical things that would stop you having, like conceiving a child and
35:27having a healthy, happy pregnancy with PMDD, what it does do, because it's, because it's
35:31predominantly mood related, it affects your libido. Much to me husband's chagrin. So yeah, I am,
35:41and I'm sure a lot of women will attest to this, you know, who are dealing with PMDD. So actually
35:45being in the mood, wanting to have sex, like that is, that is affected by PMDD. It doesn't
35:55the main concern was what sort of mom I would be with PMDD. Like I've mentioned before, it leaves me
36:05exhausted, anxious, unable to articulate myself, struggling to sleep at night, consumed by dark
36:13thoughts. And like, you have this vision of what type of mom you're going to be. And I don't think
36:20anyone knows for sure I do, but you all hope for the best. We hope we're going to be like
36:24reading
36:24bedtime stories and talking, explaining things patiently and making sourdough from scratch.
36:31Like, I don't know, however you see yourself as a mom. And I did meet with a really interesting
36:36woman named Rachel, who I'd actually spoke to before when I made my film with Good Morning Britain
36:41about medical misogyny. She herself had waited ages for a PMDD diagnosis. Um, and not to give too much
36:49way. I'm a terrible secret squirrel, but I don't want to do any spoilers, but, um, Rachel's a mother
36:53of four and she's an incredible woman, inspirational, together, smart, brave, like all the,
37:01all the things you want to be, you know? So I, um, I asked her about her experience as being
37:06a
37:06mother with PMDD and she told me that, um, it does make it slightly harder. Like she'd be lying.
37:13She has to do a lot of logistics on her luteal phase. She can't do X, Y, and Z. She
37:18avoids
37:18that meeting. She avoids this. Do you know what I mean? When she can, she is as flexible and as
37:24fluid as possible. Um, but ultimately she relies on communication. She says she talks to our children
37:29as soon as they're old enough to understand. Mommy is going to be like, mommy is going to be this.
37:34She's might be short-term, she might be this, but it doesn't mean she doesn't love you. Like afterwards,
37:40there's apologies. She explains why she is the way she is. And her hope is that she's raising
37:46emotionally intelligent, aware and empathetic children through that communication. And she
37:52says like PMDD is, as I suppose in a way forced her to do that, but it's provided this incredible
37:58golden opportunity to expose our kids to this and, and help them be more emotionally aware and
38:05empathetic, compassionate, everything you want your kids to be. So I suppose if you want to look at it
38:09like that, she's turned her, she turned her pain into purpose and is raising these incredibly
38:14wonderful little children. So that gave us hope. She's giving great advice though, isn't she?
38:19She's incredible. You know, being really self-aware, advocating for your own health.
38:24I mean, even just tracking, I guess tracking your period can really help with just acknowledging
38:28which phase of your cycle you're going to be in. So you can plan things around it. We talk a
38:32lot
38:32now about cycle syncing, you know, whether that's not taking a meeting, like you say, or, you know,
38:37not lifting heavy in the gym on a certain day, you know, you can take better care of yourself,
38:42can't you? If you're more self-aware. So, you know, I suppose her advice is, is tonic for everybody.
38:48Oh gosh, honestly, like I take my hats off to what I was everywhere. And I suppose at the,
38:53at the very bones of it, that's what maybe baby, that's what this show is about. Yes,
38:58we use the vehicle of reality and my, me and her can make in this decision. But ultimately,
39:03it has a real obstock feel about looking at attitudes to motherhood, alternative routes
39:10to motherhood. And rather than criticizing women, celebrating their choices,
39:16hopefully encouraging people to foster some empathy about alternative routes to motherhood,
39:21whether that be surrogacy or adoption, that be egg freezing. We're trying to,
39:26I suppose, bring a little bit of sunlight to conversations that do need to be had out in the
39:31open. And it's a celebration, celebration of women and a celebration of motherhood. And I feel
39:37really, I feel really proud of it. I hope everybody likes it. It was quite exposing. It's
39:42quite, it was quite an exposing one to do talking about, you know, your deepest, darkest concerns
39:47about being a mother and whether you're capable and all those things. So yeah, I think, I hope we've
39:53handled it with the dignity and grace that fertility deserves.
39:56I mean, I think even just mentioning things like surrogacy, different forms of motherhood,
40:02you know, you shine a very important and broad light on this subject. I mean,
40:07are they things that you've considered as well?
40:10Yeah.
40:10Because I suppose for everyone's journey, there might be hurdles, things might look different.
40:14Exactly. So I have my fertility tested. So that was something I would hugely recommend women do,
40:22you know, if you are even just a slightly concerned or just wanting to know what's going on in your
40:27body. Like it's a bit cliched, isn't it? But like knowledge is power, isn't it? And understanding
40:31what's happening in your body can be incredibly powerful things. So yeah, I'd recommend that. And I
40:38wanted to, we wanted to look at other options. Obviously I am getting older. It does get harder
40:47to have a, to conceive naturally and have a healthy pregnancy to terms. So we looked at surrogacy. We
40:54looked at adoption. Adoption is something that's very close to my heart. And yeah, I think through
41:00the lens of myself and I can make in this decision, we sort of look at these different alternative ways
41:06to motherhood. But, um, it was always just to raise some awareness as well and shed a light on things
41:14that people don't often talk about as much. And I feel like that's a shame. As I mentioned, like,
41:19I think every, every journey to motherhood or every decision a woman makes within the fertility
41:24space should be celebrated and respected. So yeah, it was, uh, it was very illuminating,
41:30very interesting, very emotional at times. Some incredible women.
41:33I also would love to ask you for one more piece of advice, if I may. I always ask my
41:38guests as well,
41:39their one tip for feeling well enough. And that doesn't mean feeling perfect. It just means how
41:45do you stay happy, healthy, grounded? Could be one thing, could be several things. What would your tip
41:50be? I'm a firm believer in feeling your feels. I feel like for so long I was made to believe
41:57that my
41:57sensitivity and vulnerability were weaknesses, you know, and I would try and hide them all behind this,
42:06like, this bravado, this, this idea of myself as this like really strong, confident, abrasive woman,
42:15you know, um, board had on aggression half the time. It wasn't healthy and it was all a facade.
42:20It was a mask. Um, and when I look back at that time, it was when I was at me
42:25most unhealthy
42:25in every sense of the word, mental health was struggling physically. I wasn't looking after
42:30myself. So feel your feels. If you are feeling great one day, if you are on cloud nine and you've
42:40gone up early and you've done your sunrise yoga and drank your green juice and given birth to an
42:46avocado, enjoy it, enjoy it. Be proud of yourself. Take that win, you know, do everything you want to
42:52do on that day. Go see the girls, have a date night with your fella, like smash work, go out
42:59for drinks
42:59for your friends, like whatever it is, like go to the hip class, like whatever it is that make,
43:04that you feel capable of, do it in that day. But when you have those days where you feel
43:14overwhelmed and blue, feel your feels, do as little as you can, you know, skip the gym, go home,
43:23lie on the sofa, watch your favourite show, eat the Barra Galaxy, cuddle your dog, cry, feel your feels.
43:29And make sure you give yourself grace and time to do that. Because it's important. Your body knows
43:36what it needs. Such good advice. Because we make ourselves feel guilty, don't we? For resting.
43:41Yeah. And I do think that is so criminal. Because you know, when we talk about wellness,
43:45often we're talking about not being well, but being more productive.
43:49It's different. Yeah. It's different. I had a life coach who once said to me, number your days,
43:55right? So on some days you will have good morning Britain, an interview, a lunch with somebody,
44:06press in the afternoon, then an event, and you have to go home and buy everything your husband
44:09and your dogs need. Whatever that busy, shiny day looks like for you, you know, they're called number
44:16one days. You have to be on form. You have to be fired up. You have to be everything everyone
44:21is expecting of you. Those are your number ones, right? On your number two days, you might have a
44:27slightly slower start. You've got a photo shoot. You've got a bit of filming in the afternoon.
44:31You still get home late. You still need to be what everyone expects of you. Those are your number
44:34twos. Can't avoid them. Your number threes are slightly slower. Maybe you're working from home,
44:39you're doing a bit of content, you're doing whatever. These are my personal experiences.
44:43Everyone knows what the one, two and three days look like, you know? But within that,
44:47you need to make sure you're having your number four days as well. Those days where you do very
44:51little. You walk the dogs, you sit and watch your favourite film, you have a coffee with your husband,
44:57you might phone your sister, but you do nothing ultimately. And you can't have those big, shiny,
45:03bright number one days where you feel capable of anything and conquering the world unless you have your
45:08number fours. So make sure you're being kind to yourself and putting in your number fours when
45:13you can. Yeah. It's balance versus burnout, isn't it? I'm still trying to work that out with myself.
45:18Speaking like I'm from a place of authority when I'm fucking nagging all the time.
45:23But wonderful advice. And I'm going to take that home with me actually,
45:26the one to four days. I think that's really, really good advice.
45:29Can't take credit for it. It was a life coach. He's fantastic. Bill, love him.
45:33Vicky Patterson, thank you so much for joining me for Well Enough.
45:36So welcome. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.
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