00:08Sarah Marian, thank you so much for joining us on Euronews.
00:11I want to ask you about what is the most consequential election this year so far,
00:14and that is Hungary is a defeat, crushing defeat, of Viktor Orban
00:18and a massive landslide to the opposition at Petr Magyar.
00:21What does that say to you about Europe?
00:23Well, of course, I think it gives hope to Europe, and I know that I am,
00:28and I know that many in Hungary and many in Europe are relieved
00:32with this outcome of the election, of the Hungarian parliamentary elections,
00:36because it also gives now much more space of solutions about Ukraine.
00:42We all know that Orban has Ukraine under his pressure on many occasions
00:48and many situations, so of course we hope that now things will flow forward.
00:52So there's been this idea of Hungary that perhaps moves closer to Europe.
00:56The new Europe, liberal values, the European future that we hope,
01:01because we are united and we need each other.
01:05Twenty-seven member states, we decide together, and we need the unity.
01:09And if there are those that block common decisions together,
01:14sometimes with others, but mostly by themselves, then we have a problem within the whole system.
01:20And you speak about liberal values of Europe. You defended those values, too.
01:24So I wonder, would you have voted for someone like Petr Magyar?
01:27I see you do not exactly the same.
01:30I'm a Finnish citizen, so of course I wouldn't vote anybody from Hungary.
01:34I would vote in Finland. I'm a social democrat. I'm a leftist.
01:38I'm very liberal. I'm a feminist. So of course there are differences.
01:42But I think I'm looking at this mostly at the perspective of Europe.
01:46The unity that we need, the decisions that we need to make,
01:50especially concerning Ukraine, but also otherwise.
01:52So I think this gives us an opportunity to reach an outcome on decisions
01:58and situations that need to resolve.
02:01Over the past few weeks we've seen tapes that leaked of alleged conversations
02:05and some of them caught on tape very openly between the Hungarians and the Russians.
02:10Is that something that you suspected? And is it just a red line has been crossed already?
02:15The idea that this communication was certainly happened before and after meetings.
02:20Of course I have worked together with Viktor Orban in European Council
02:24and we have had many difficult situations and discussions, for example,
02:29concerning Finland's and Sweden's NATO membership.
02:32And we know that Orban has very different views on the war in Ukraine.
02:37And also, for example, rule of law, applying rule of law in Europe.
02:41He says Ukraine cannot win it. He said objectively Ukraine cannot win it.
02:44You've said Ukraine can win it.
02:46Ukraine must win it. I would say Ukraine must win it if Ukraine doesn't win the war
02:53or have an outcome on a peace negotiations that will be sustainable,
03:00that would be fair for the Ukrainian citizens.
03:02And that will provide security to Europe and to Ukraine in the future.
03:08If we won't have that, we as Europe, we are under jeopardy because Russia is, as we speak,
03:15they are preparing themselves, they are modernizing their army and they are preparing themselves to much wider fight.
03:23So they are preparing for war with Europe? The rest of the continent?
03:26I wouldn't rule that out. And we also need to prepare.
03:29And for that we need strong Ukraine because Ukraine has the largest, most functional and modern army
03:36with modern warfare experience. And without Ukraine we are vulnerable.
03:40We need their lessons learned. We need their help.
03:43And we need to understand that we are as dependent on Ukraine and Ukrainian capabilities,
03:48that Ukraine is dependent on our help. We need their capabilities when it comes, for example,
03:53building drones, innovating and transforming their military capabilities.
03:59We need their expertise and we need to understand how bad we need it.
04:03We are now, when we are building our own defense capabilities and reaching that 5% target, hopefully,
04:10that we have set together in NATO. It also, and actually even more so, depends where we use that money.
04:20Not only how much, but where we use that money. If we use it on wrong direction, old fashioned,
04:27traditional models that cost a huge amount of money and not the ones that are actually used on the battlefield,
04:33then we will just waste every euro that we spend.
04:37And you mentioned NATO. There's been a lot of friction over the past few weeks.
04:41Certainly the president of the U.S. making it very clear that he believes the Europeans have done very little
04:46in Iran
04:46and also said that NATO without the U.S. is a paper tiger.
04:50When I hear these words, this is exactly what Russia would like to hear.
04:54NATO is a paper tiger and the U.S. may consider reassessing their relationship.
04:58How concerned are you because a country like yours certainly needs a strong NATO?
05:03I'm very glad and I still support our decision joining NATO. I think it was the right one.
05:09At the same time, we have to understand and realize that NATO is a different organization now than it was
05:15when we and Sweden joined.
05:17Because Trump is the president.
05:19Because of the changing relationship between the U.S. and Europe, it has already changed and it is changing.
05:26And this is a fact that we cannot escape. And it means that we need to focus on our own
05:30game.
05:30Now we are speaking European defense capabilities and European unity, European military forces.
05:37And I think this is an extremely necessary discussion. And we should also discuss more about the European nuclear deterrence.
05:46This is a discussion that I see happening already and the necessity to have it.
05:51When I hear about the nuclear capabilities and deterrence and sort of extending this umbrella across Europe.
05:56What that says to me is the Europeans, they are preparing for a plan B in which if there is
06:02an attack, you're not going to call the U.S.
06:04You're going to figure out how you defend yourself and how the Europeans defend themselves together.
06:09Is that what it is? Is this realization that a plan B is now needed?
06:13I would be prepared from different scenarios. This is the way that the Finnish mentality works because we have such
06:20a difficult history with Russia.
06:22We don't wish those things that are happening in the world now, but they are facts. They are happening.
06:27And we need to be prepared also for the harsher times. And also when it comes to the relationship between
06:33the U.S. and Europe,
06:34we cannot only walk the path that we wish to be. We have to walk the path that might be.
06:39And that's why we need to be prepared. And that's why we are having the discussion of the European alternatives.
06:44And I think it is an important discussion. But at the same time, we want U.S. to be a
06:49strong part of NATO.
06:50We want U.S. presence in Europe. We want U.S. nuclear deterrence to be there also in the future.
06:57So I don't see these ruling themselves or each other out, but we need to prepare for every scenario.
07:03So you see a NATO that is still standing together collectively around Article 5 in the next five to ten
07:09years to come.
07:10That is still the scenario that you see.
07:11That is a scenario that I hope, but I would also prepare every scenario out there.
07:17And of course, you were in office and you say, we as Finnish, we have to be prepared for every
07:20scenario.
07:21Have you ever thought what that could look like to have a contingency plan for modern warfare, which not necessarily
07:27means an attack on the border?
07:29I think it is extremely important to understand all across Europe that the warfare and the threats are not anymore
07:37only connected to geography.
07:40With drone technology, with the use of AI, mapping out critical infrastructure extremely fast, with space technologies, with all the
07:49things that is now created and will be created,
07:51you cannot anymore rely that you are safe when you are farther away from the border.
07:56So, of course, you are more in jeopardy.
07:58We have that long border with Russia and we understand what kind of enemy we are dealing with, what kind
08:03of neighbor we are dealing with.
08:04Do you think of Russia as an enemy?
08:05Well, Russia is attacking European countries. Yes, Russia is an enemy as we speak.
08:11They are attacking European countries. They are violating international law. They are an enemy.
08:17And I think we need to make sure that they won't win war in Ukraine, but Ukraine will win and
08:23maintain as an independent country.
08:24But what I was saying that we know it, we know the pressure because we are near to Russia.
08:31But you need to also understand in Portugal, in Spain, in French, that you are not safe even though you
08:37are farther away from the border because of the new threats and because of the new technologies.
08:41You can plant drones anywhere. You can map out critical infrastructure with AI, with the speed that you don't even
08:49understand.
08:49You can use these technologies also to attack other countries.
08:54So you also need to be prepared elsewhere and not troll yourselves into the idea that we are safe and
08:59we don't have to do anything.
09:00You said it at the beginning of our interview. You are very pro-Europe. You are very liberal. You've said,
09:06I am a feminist.
09:06But you also know the international side guys. The pendulum has really changed from progressive ideas to what is seen
09:13now as a global conservative movement that would argue perhaps you are too woke.
09:19So how would you respond to that? And do you see that pendulum switching back?
09:23There's always a pendulum movement. The most thing that I now worry is the lack of respect of international rules
09:31and laws.
09:33The fact that the rules based international order is under questioning, even threatened and that we don't want to build
09:41any more world where we work together in a civilized way.
09:46But we are going the direction again where pure violence or strength dictates the outcomes.
09:54And from a small country perspective like Finland, that kind of future is extremely frightening because we cannot ever have
10:01that kind of strength and power that the big players have.
10:05So I worry a lot this pendulum movement that is going the direction of demolishing the international structures that we
10:12built together after Second World War saying never again.
10:16And now we are in this situation.
10:18The goal is to demolish international rules.
10:21Well, as we see, there is this ideology again rising that made the strongest men win.
10:30And we need to.
10:32And we're two women.
10:33We need to push back and we need to remind that there was a reason why we built those structures
10:38before.
10:38And if we go to that direction, we will only end up in a similar kind of situations where we
10:43ended up for World War One, World War Two.
10:47It wasn't a coincidence that these structures were invented, created, built.
10:53As a final question, you were in office, you were a politician, but you also became a sort of media
11:01sensation.
11:01There was a fixation with the things that you would do, the things you would wear, your looks, whether you
11:07were out and about and who you were with.
11:09Was that something that had an impact on you? And how are you feeling now?
11:13Well, I think those are things that come with the job. Of course, I would have wished that media focus
11:20would always be on the issues on my job, on the things that I was handling.
11:25But of course, I think every politician nowadays feel more and more pressure also from the intensive, not maybe with
11:35everybody a scrutiny, but the interests of personal issues, personal things, looks, appearance.
11:40And I think this is frustrating, especially to politicians, because they usually want to focus on the work and the
11:46issues why they joined their parties and run for office in the first place.
11:51Well, Sanna Marin, thank you so much for joining us on Euro News. Appreciate it.
11:54Thank you so much for having me.
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