00:04Muzyka
00:08Zadamarin, thank you so much for joining us on Euronews.
00:11I want to ask you about what is the most consequential election this year so far,
00:14and that is Hungary. It's a defeat, crushing defeat,
00:17Viktor Orban, and a massive landslide to the opposition at Petr Magyar.
00:21What does that say to you about Europe?
00:23Well, of course, I think it gives hope to Europe,
00:26and I know that I am, and I know that many in Hungary
00:29and many in Europe are relieved with this outcome of the election,
00:34of the Hungarian parliamentary elections,
00:36because it also gives now much more space of solutions about Ukraine.
00:42We all know that Orban has had Ukraine under his pressure
00:47on many occasions and many situations,
00:49so of course we hope that now things will flow forward.
00:52So there's been this idea of Hungary that perhaps moves closer to Europe.
00:56liberal values, the European future that we hope,
01:01because we are united and we need each other.
01:0527 member states, we decide together, and we need the union immediately.
01:09And if there are those that block common decisions together,
01:14sometimes with others, but mostly by themselves,
01:17then we have a problem within the whole system.
01:20And you speak about liberal values of Europe.
01:22You defended those values, too, so I wonder,
01:24would you have voted for someone like Petr Magyar?
01:27I see you do not exactly the same.
01:30I'm a Finnish citizen, so of course I wouldn't vote anybody from Hungary.
01:34I would vote in Finland.
01:35I'm a social democrat, I'm a leftist, I'm very liberal, I'm a feminist.
01:40So of course there are differences,
01:41but I think I'm looking at this mostly of the perspective of Europe.
01:46The unity that we need, the decisions that we need to make,
01:50especially concerning Ukraine, but also otherwise.
01:53So I think this gives us an opportunity to reach an outcome
01:57on decisions and situations that need to resolve.
02:01Over the past few weeks, we've seen tapes that leaked of alleged conversations,
02:06and some of them caught on tape very openly,
02:08between the Hungarians and the Russians.
02:09Is that something that you suspected?
02:11And is it just a red line has been crossed already?
02:15The idea that this communication was certainly happened before and after meetings.
02:20Of course, I have worked together with Viktor Orban in European Council,
02:24and we have had many difficult situations and discussions,
02:29for example, concerning Finland's and Sweden's NATO membership.
02:32And we know that Orban has a very different view on the war in Ukraine,
02:37and also, for example, rule of law, applying rule of law in Europe.
02:41He says Ukraine cannot win it.
02:42He said objectively, Ukraine cannot win it.
02:44You've said Ukraine can win it.
02:46Ukraine must win it.
02:48I would say Ukraine must win it.
02:49If Ukraine doesn't win it if Ukraine doesn't win the war or have an outcome on a peace negotiations
02:58that will be sustainable, that would be fair for the Ukrainian citizens.
03:02And that will provide security to Europe and to Ukraine in the future.
03:08If we won't have that, we as Europe, we are under jeopardy.
03:12Because Russia is, as we speak, they are preparing themselves.
03:17They are modernizing their army, and they are preparing themselves to much wider fight.
03:23So they're preparing for war with Europe, the rest of the continent?
03:26I wouldn't rule that out.
03:28And we also need to prepare.
03:29And for that, we need strong Ukraine, because Ukraine has the largest,
03:34most functional and modern army with modern warfare experience.
03:38And without Ukraine, we are vulnerable.
03:40We need their lessons learned.
03:42We need their help.
03:43And we need to understand that we are as dependent on Ukraine and Ukrainian capabilities
03:48that Ukraine is dependent on our help.
03:50We need their capabilities when it comes, for example, building drones,
03:54innovating and transforming their military capabilities.
03:59We need their expertise.
04:01And we need to understand how bad we need it.
04:04We are now, when we are building our own defense capabilities
04:07and reaching that 5% target, hopefully, that we have set together in NATO,
04:12it also, and actually even more so, depends where we use that money.
04:20Not only how much, but where we use that money.
04:23If we use it on wrong direction, old-fashioned, traditional models
04:28that cost a huge amount of money, and not the ones that are actually used on the battlefield,
04:34then we will just waste every euro that we spend.
04:37And you mentioned NATO.
04:39There's been a lot of friction over the past few weeks.
04:41Certainly, the president of the U.S.
04:42making it very clear that he believes the Europeans have done very little in Iran
04:46and also said that NATO without the U.S. is a paper tiger.
04:50When I hear these words, this is exactly what Russia would like to hear.
04:53NATO is a paper tiger, and the U.S. may consider reassessing their relationship.
04:58How concerned are you?
04:59Because a country like yours certainly needs a strong NATO.
05:03I'm very glad, and I still support our decision, joining NATO.
05:08I think it was the right one.
05:09At the same time, we have to understand and realize that NATO is a different organization now
05:14than it was when we and Sweden joined.
05:17Because Trump is a president.
05:19Because of the changing relationship between U.S. and Europe,
05:23it has already changed, and it is changing, and this is a fact that we cannot escape.
05:28And it means that we need to focus on our own game.
05:30Now we are speaking European defense capabilities and European unity, European military forces,
05:37and I think this is an extremely necessary discussion,
05:40and we should also discuss more about the European nuclear deterrence.
05:46This is a discussion that I see happening already and the necessity to have it.
05:51When I hear about the nuclear capabilities and deterrence and sort of extending this umbrella across Europe,
05:56what that says to me is that Europeans, they are preparing for a plan B,
06:01in which if there is an attack, you're not going to call the U.S.
06:04You're going to figure out how you defend yourself and how the Europeans defend themselves together.
06:09Is that what it is?
06:10Is this realization that a plan B is now needed?
06:13I would be prepared from different scenarios.
06:16This is the way that the Finnish mentality works, because we have such a difficult history with Russia.
06:22We don't wish those things that are happening in the world now, but they are facts.
06:27They are happening.
06:27And we need to be prepared also for the harsher times.
06:31And also when it comes to the relationship between U.S. and Europe,
06:34we cannot only walk the path that we wish to be.
06:37We have to walk the path that might be.
06:39And that's why we need to be prepared.
06:41And that's why we are having the discussion of the European alternatives.
06:44And I think it is an important discussion.
06:46But at the same time, we want U.S. to be a strong part of NATO.
06:50We want U.S. presence in Europe.
06:52We want U.S. nuclear deterrence to be there also in the future.
06:57So I don't see these ruling themselves or each other out.
07:01But we need to prepare for every scenario.
07:03So you see a NATO that is still standing together collectively around Article 5 in the next 5 to 10
07:09years to come.
07:10That is still the scenario that you see.
07:11That is a scenario that I hope, but I would also prepare every scenario out there.
07:17And of course you were in office and you say, we as Finnish, we have to be prepared for every
07:20scenario.
07:21Have you ever thought what that could look like?
07:23To have a contingency plan for modern warfare, which not necessarily means an attack on the border?
07:29I think it is extremely important to understand all across Europe that the warfare and the threats are not anymore
07:37only connected to geography.
07:40With drone technology, with the use of AI, mapping out critical infrastructure extremely fast, with space technologies, with all the
07:49things that is now created and will be created,
07:52you cannot anymore rely that you are safe when you are farther away from the border.
07:56So, of course, you are more in jeopardy.
07:58We have that long border with Russia and we understand what kind of enemy we are dealing with, what kind
08:03of neighbor we are dealing with.
08:04You think of Russia as an enemy?
08:06Well, Russia is attacking European countries.
08:08Yes, Russia is an enemy.
08:10As we speak, they are attacking European countries.
08:13They are violating international law.
08:16They are an enemy.
08:17And I think we need to make sure that they won't win war in Ukraine, but Ukraine will win and
08:23maintain as an independent country.
08:24But what I was saying that we know it, we know the pressure because we are near to Russia, but
08:31you need to also understand in Portugal, in Spain, in French,
08:35that you are not safe even though you are farther away from the border because of the new threats and
08:40because of the new technologies.
08:42You can plant drones anywhere.
08:44You can map out critical infrastructure with AI, with the speed that you don't even understand.
08:49And you can use these technologies also to attack other countries.
08:54So you also need to be prepared elsewhere and not troll yourselves into the idea that we are safe and
08:59we don't have to do anything.
09:00You said it at the beginning of our interview.
09:02You are very pro-Europe.
09:04You are very liberal.
09:05You've said, I am a feminist.
09:06But you also know the international side guys.
09:09The pendulum has really changed from progressive ideas to what is seen now as a global conservative movement that would
09:17argue perhaps you are too woke.
09:19So how would you respond to that?
09:21And do you see that pendulum switching back?
09:23There's always a pendulum movement.
09:24And the most thing that I now worry is the lack of respect of international rules and laws.
09:33The fact that the rules-based international order is under questioning, even threatened,
09:39and that we don't want to build any more world where we work together in a civilized way,
09:46but we are going to the direction again where pure violence or strength dictates the outcomes.
09:54And from a small country perspective like Finland, that kind of future is extremely frightening
09:59because we cannot ever have that kind of strength and power that the big players have.
10:05So I worry a lot of this pendulum movement that is going the direction of demolishing the international structures
10:12that we built together after the Second World War saying, never again.
10:16And now we are in this situation.
10:18The goal is to demolish international rules.
10:21Well, as we see, there is this ideology again rising that made the strongest men win.
10:30And we need to push back.
10:34And we need to remind that there was a reason why we built those structures before.
10:39And if we go to that direction, we will only end up in a similar kind of situation
10:43where we ended up for World War I, World War II.
10:47It wasn't a coincidence that these structures were invented, created, built.
10:53As a final question, you were in office, you were a politician,
10:58but you also became a sort of media sensation.
11:01There was a fixation with the things that you would do, the things you would wear,
11:06your looks, whether you were out and about and who you were with.
11:09Was that something that had an impact on you?
11:12And how are you feeling now?
11:13Well, I think those are things that come with the job.
11:17Of course, I would have wished that media focus would always be on the issues,
11:23on my job, on the things that I was handling.
11:25But of course, I think every politician nowadays feel more and more pressure also
11:30from the intensive, not maybe with everybody a scrutiny,
11:36but the interest of personal issues, personal things, Luke's appearance.
11:40And I think this is frustrating, especially to politicians,
11:44because they usually want to focus on the work and the issues
11:47why they joined their parties and run for office in the first place.
11:51Well, Sanna-Marin, thank you so much for joining us on Euronews.
11:53Appreciate it.
11:54Thank you so much for having me.
11:55Thank you so much for having me.
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