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00:00British Army was only capable of seizing a small market town on a good day.
00:05There's some now quite frightening stuff that you have to tune yourself into very, very quickly.
00:10It's like plunging into cold water.
00:12I mean, it's an extraordinary thing to ask any human to do, and every prime minister has to do that.
00:17Keir Starmer's government faced a scathing attack this week.
00:20And not just from his political opponents. It also came from an ex-Labour defence secretary.
00:26Lord Robertson, the former NATO Secretary-General, accused the government of corrosive complacency
00:31and the Treasury of vandalism over its reluctance to spend more on defence.
00:35Worse still, he says that Britain is not safe.
00:38Today we're asking, can the prime minister and his government fulfil their number one obligation,
00:43the defence of the realm?
00:45I'm Helen McNamara, the former Deputy Cabinet Secretary.
00:47And I'm Cleo Watson, a former special advisor in 10 Downing Street.
00:51And this is In The Room.
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00:58We love all that kind of stuff, and it really does help, as we tell you every week.
01:02And if you want to see what we're up to on YouTube, you can see us there,
01:06and on Instagram at intheroom.pod, which has got our kind of top clips,
01:11carefully created by producer Sam.
01:13Another week, Helen, and actually another quite important and frightening topic, actually.
01:18We are talking about the UK's defence position.
01:22And I'd like to start with the comments from Lord Robertson, George Robertson,
01:27who is a former Labour Defence Secretary from 1997 to 1999.
01:32And he was the 10th NATO Secretary General, which is one of the most sought-after defence jobs, really.
01:38It's a really important role.
01:40Yeah, so he's a very serious guy, right?
01:42And one of the first things that Keir Starmer did,
01:44if you cast your mind back to the election in 2024,
01:48one of the first things that Keir Starmer did was commission this strategic defence review
01:52with some very serious people.
01:53So George Robertson is one of them.
01:55There's a woman called Fiona Hill, who used to work in the White House,
01:59who's a really respected defence analyst and commentator.
02:03And then General Richard Barron, who, so the three of them embarked on this huge piece of work,
02:10the Strategic Defence Review, which took them almost a year to complete,
02:13was published then last summer.
02:16And the short version is, kind of since then, nothing's really happened.
02:20So what has been a private frustration, I think, for some time,
02:24boiled over in public this week, of all weeks.
02:27So not super helpful for Keir, I mean, was it ever going to be super helpful for Keir Starmer?
02:31Not sure, but not helpful in terms of the local election campaigns.
02:35And effectively, there was this big defence conference last week in London,
02:41where poor old John Healy, who's been widely respected defence secretary,
02:45very serious, seasoned Labour politician.
02:48You know, in general, people think he's the right man in the right job
02:50and has been doing, you know, good things.
02:53But the poor guy is at this defence conference with all of the people from,
02:57you know, all the top brass, quite literally.
02:59And he's massively on the back foot,
03:02because everyone's asking perfectly reasonable questions,
03:03like, well, come on then, have you got on with it?
03:05What's, you know, where are we?
03:06Where is this plan?
03:07This is really urgent.
03:08And actually, what we are still waiting for, apparently,
03:11is for a follow-up to the Strategic Defence Review, bear with me.
03:15So one massive document published last year,
03:17and then the next document that's supposed to be being published,
03:20and was supposed to be being published last autumn,
03:22and we're still waiting for it in April, you know, in the next year,
03:26is the plan, which says this is what's going to happen now,
03:30and this is, crucially, how much it's going to cost
03:32and where the money's coming from.
03:34The Defence Investment Plan.
03:35The Defence, our old friend, the Defence Investment Plan.
03:38Yeah, it smacks of desperation, really.
03:40Let's see what George Robinson had to say.
03:43We're underprepared.
03:45We're underinsured.
03:46We're under attack.
03:49We're not safe.
03:51There is a corrosive complacency today in Britain's political leadership.
03:57And that's brutal.
03:58Yeah, it is.
03:59I mean, that's really quite frightening.
04:01And, you know, as night follows day,
04:03it means the government minister has to go on the Today programme
04:06the following day to try and defend...
04:09James Murray is a very nice man, can I say.
04:11I worked for James Murray on the Olympics a million years ago
04:14on the 2012 Olympic bid.
04:15Well, let's see how he fared, shall we?
04:17By the fact, the previous government hollowed out our armed forces.
04:20But if you think about the manifesto that we went into the election with,
04:23we said that we would set out a path to 2.5% of GDP being spent
04:27on defence in this parliament.
04:29We are going to hit 2.6% next April.
04:33What does that mean in ships, Mr Murray,
04:35which is what really matters when you have a war like this?
04:37There are other things that matter too.
04:38How many ships were we able to send to the Middle East
04:41as a result of your long and sustained increase in defence spending?
04:45Well, so all of the sustained increase in defence spending,
04:48the details of that will be in the Defence Investment Plan,
04:51which we're going to publish...
04:52We're going to publish that as soon as possible
04:53because we need to get it right.
04:55I mean, Nick Robinson is usually a pretty patient interviewer, right?
04:58He's very... not very patient in that context, I would say.
05:02Yeah, I think this is one of those areas
05:03where you can spew out X billion, you know, X percent of GDP.
05:09In the coming months, we will be publishing this document,
05:14but it's totally unclear and it's, you know,
05:16we are working at pace.
05:17What does that mean?
05:18I mean, as I understand it, these things are essentially written,
05:20certainly, obviously, the SDR, the Strategic Defence Review,
05:25but it's just sitting in government and no one's making a decision.
05:29And actually, as I understand it,
05:31the situation is a bit worse than we thought financially.
05:34Well, I think, I mean, we should come on to
05:35why is it that decisions get made like this
05:37and how can you possibly be in the situation
05:39where everyone's screaming urgency?
05:40You don't even need to be the defence analyst
05:42to look at the world and think,
05:43oh, hang on a second,
05:44maybe it might be a good idea to have some drones.
05:46But we can come on to why we think that has happened.
05:49The other thing is you say it's not just that
05:51there is no plan for this forward spending,
05:53that Sky News broke this week a story that actually
05:57it's not additional money,
05:58the MOD is being asked to find £3.5 billion of savings this year as well.
06:04That is on top of, you know, another financial black hole,
06:07a country entirely made of financial black holes,
06:09of around £28 billion over the next four years.
06:12And, you know, lo and behold,
06:13the Chancellor has only, well, reportedly,
06:16has only approved very limited increase to the MOD budget.
06:19So this is a tale as old of time in some ways
06:22as a fight between the MOD and the Treasury over money.
06:26Yeah, of course. And if you are the previous Conservative government,
06:30you are very sensitive to attacks on your record.
06:33So George Robertson getting involved, you know,
06:35a Labour man is a gift for Kemi Badenock
06:38and she really made hay with it at PMQs this week.
06:41Lord Robertson, who authored the government's strategic defence review,
06:45has said the Prime Minister has a corrosive complacency
06:50when it comes to defence.
06:51Why did he say that?
06:53So I don't think it's any particular surprise
06:55that Kemi Badenock went on defence this week.
06:58But I think before we really get into the meat of the episode,
07:01it might be useful for us to talk a bit of context
07:05about how we've ended up where we are.
07:07Why is it that George Robertson is pulling his hair out
07:09to the extent that he is?
07:11And frankly, it is a problem that goes back decades,
07:15defence spending in the UK.
07:17You talked about General Sir Richard Barron,
07:19who's one of the co-authors of the Strategic Defence Review.
07:23Yeah, he said something pretty, I mean, they have all come out
07:26and even by the standards said pretty extraordinary things.
07:29Richard Barron said that he thought that the British Army
07:31was only capable of seizing a small market town on a good day,
07:37which, I mean, partly when they asked,
07:39I thought what market towns are we going to be going after?
07:41It seems like a really, that's where we'll start,
07:45our either defence of the realm or invasion of another power.
07:48Yeah, they're still holding Wetherspoons on the high street
07:51and we just can't infiltrate.
07:53We're in general pretty good for market towns, I would say.
07:55It's one of the things that we do well.
07:57Yeah, and even last year, I mean, this is scary stuff.
08:00The House of Commons produced a report which said
08:02that we are increasingly vulnerable
08:06to long-range ballistic missiles in the UK,
08:08which is really frightening.
08:10You know, Israel has their Iron Dome,
08:13which people will be very familiar with,
08:14which protects them from missiles.
08:16When I lived in Washington, D.C., I rented an apartment
08:19and I was reliably informed that the apartment fell
08:22within the umbrella of the Pentagon's kind of missile defences,
08:27which was a selling point.
08:29I know, I thought, phew, and there's a pizza hut.
08:32I mean, this is just fantastic.
08:34It's worrying, you know, troop headcount is down,
08:36there's ageing equipment that is in a pretty poor state,
08:40if we can get it at all.
08:41And Labour came to power promising to reverse
08:42the hollowing out of the armed forces.
08:44But, you know, there's no sign that that's really happened.
08:47They remain pretty threadbare.
08:49Meanwhile, the USA is telling Europe
08:51that they are not as engaged with NATO.
08:54They don't want to be their security guarantee for Europe.
08:57You can absolutely see a huge escalation
08:59in defence spending in France and Germany
09:02amongst our European allies.
09:04And the US is also saying that they're going to be involved
09:07in fewer conflicts.
09:08So the idea that we have been for years thinking
09:11that the US were going to be there with us and everything,
09:13I don't think we can rely on that anymore.
09:15And actually, I think that public shaming,
09:17which people have really taken against Donald Trump
09:19for against Keir Starmer,
09:21is only going to get worse.
09:23They have to crack on because we have G7
09:25and NATO summits coming up this summer
09:27and it's going to be really embarrassing
09:28if everyone else sort of arrives with their homework
09:31and Keir Starmer has to come empty-handed.
09:33So in some senses,
09:34like defence people moaning about
09:36there not being enough defence spending,
09:38same old, same old, situation normal.
09:40This does feel very different though,
09:42partly because it's a serious labour person
09:46who's been commissioned by this serious labour government
09:48seriously attacking them in very short order.
09:52Secondly, because everybody is out there saying
09:54this is not good enough.
09:55And you can sort of smell the panic.
09:58It's a really unusual thing to do
09:59to come out and be this critical.
10:01In public.
10:02And it's an act of desperation.
10:03And it's an act of desperation
10:05in the context where the rest of us
10:06can see with our own eyes.
10:08This isn't an abstract concept.
10:09Are we defended or not anymore?
10:11It's real and it's frightening.
10:12And you look at what's happened in Ukraine.
10:14You look at what's happening in the Middle East.
10:15You don't need to be somebody
10:16who's an expert on defence to think
10:18it would be really good
10:18if we had some drone capability.
10:20Are we actually protected?
10:22And you sort of see for the first time
10:24and think about these things for the first time
10:25for lots of people.
10:27Like actually, are we going to be okay
10:29if there was a war, if this country was attacked,
10:31if actually, you know,
10:32we do end up in a conflict situation.
10:34Is it going to be okay?
10:35And nothing that we're seeing or hearing
10:37is reassuring.
10:38Yeah, exactly.
10:39And not only that,
10:40aside from actual conflict,
10:43we do need the armed forces up to scratch
10:46for how we get on domestically.
10:48We've talked in the last month a lot
10:50about the impending oil crisis.
10:52Well, the one we're already in
10:53and an even worse energy crisis we're headed for.
10:57The safety of the vessels
10:58bringing energy supplies into the UK
11:01is really important.
11:02We need a navy that is able to perform.
11:05Spring is coming
11:06and therefore small boat crossings
11:08will start really picking up in earnest.
11:11And, you know,
11:12we need to have a navy
11:13that is able to be deployed
11:14in a situation like that as well.
11:16We have deep sea cables around the UK
11:19that need to be protected from submarines,
11:21something we'll talk about a little bit later on.
11:24I mean, these are things that,
11:26you know,
11:26stuff to do with the military
11:28and to do with conflict
11:28can feel very, very remote,
11:30but they will affect us at home.
11:32And that's the whole point of defence
11:34as you defend people
11:34to basically be able to carry on
11:36with their normal lives.
11:38And it feels like,
11:39from what George Robertson is saying,
11:41we can't do that at the moment.
11:43So stay with us
11:44because we're going to tell you more
11:45about how we got into
11:46what is a terrible situation.
11:50Cleo, right at the top of the episode,
11:52you said that the first job
11:53of the Prime Minister
11:54was the defence of the realm,
11:56which is a nice use of realm,
11:57apart from anything else.
11:58But explain a bit more about that.
12:00Yes, so let's go back
12:03in our own minds
12:04to some rooms that we've been in, Helen.
12:06And I will have been
12:08on the political side,
12:09as we've discussed.
12:10So typically on a general election campaign,
12:12this is an exhausting
12:14six-week intense process.
12:16And that actually comes
12:17after months of gearing up for one too.
12:19And the winning Prime Minister
12:21has been on the road.
12:22They've been making speeches.
12:23They've been campaigning.
12:25They've been leafleting.
12:25I mean, they are flat out.
12:27And they finally,
12:28you know, the result comes true.
12:29They are finally Prime Minister of the UK.
12:33And they get driven into Downing Street
12:35and they make this speech
12:36on the front steps
12:37and all their staff are behind them.
12:39It's really exciting.
12:41Everyone's seen it.
12:42And then they walk through
12:42that black front door.
12:44They get clapped in by all the staff.
12:46Hello.
12:47Yes.
12:48Huge congratulations.
12:49And then at that point,
12:51I say to them,
12:52Prime Minister,
12:54you're going into the Cabinet room now
12:55with black eyes,
12:58with Helen
12:59and a very small group
13:00of very important,
13:01quite frightening people.
13:02And we're going to shut these doors
13:04and you are going to learn about
13:06ultimately what your most important roles are.
13:09Like the fanfare is over.
13:11There's some now quite frightening stuff
13:12that you have to tune yourself into
13:15very, very quickly.
13:16It's like plunging into cold water.
13:18Yeah, because you're Prime Minister from then.
13:20It's absolutely remarkable.
13:21And the swap over we do in our country,
13:23the speed of it,
13:24that if you're on the civil service side,
13:26you clap one person out of the door
13:27and then you literally stand there
13:29and wait and clap the next person in.
13:30Get some debt all out.
13:32Stand there very nervously
13:33and straighten your tie or whatever.
13:35And you're absolutely right.
13:36One of the first things
13:37that you need to do
13:38with an incoming Prime Minister
13:39with an incoming government,
13:40and that'll be true
13:41for the kind of the ministers
13:42you have the most serious
13:43in this sense roles,
13:44is there is not,
13:45there's not much time
13:46for kind of,
13:47would you like us to change
13:48the colour of your wallpaper
13:49or how do you like your coffee?
13:51It's straight into,
13:52like, you're the boss now.
13:54And therefore,
13:55it's been written about a lot.
13:56One of the first things
13:57that any Prime Minister has to do
13:59is decide what are the instructions
14:00that they would give
14:01for the captains
14:03of our nuclear submarines
14:04that if they aren't able
14:05to make contact again
14:07with the UK
14:07after a nuclear attack,
14:09should they fire their weapons or not?
14:11I mean, it's an extraordinary thing
14:12to ask any human to do.
14:14And every Prime Minister
14:15has to do that.
14:16Every Prime Minister
14:16has to sit and think about
14:17in their own conscience,
14:19what would they do?
14:21It's an unbelievably,
14:22one of many unbelievably
14:24sobering things
14:25that the new Prime Minister
14:26has to do.
14:26So you are straight into
14:28defence and security.
14:30All new Prime Ministers
14:31are briefed on
14:32the proper security threats
14:33facing the country.
14:34And in the last 20 years,
14:36that has mainly been
14:38about terrorism.
14:39So I think one of the important things
14:42to not lose in this argument
14:43or this conversation
14:44is that
14:46I'm sure it's absolutely right
14:47that on the defence,
14:49capital D,
14:49MOD,
14:50military side,
14:51people are very anxious
14:53and feel like we've been very,
14:54you know,
14:55we're behind
14:55where we should be
14:56in terms of equipment
14:57and people
14:59and approaches
15:00and capabilities.
15:01For the last 20 years,
15:02at least,
15:03the real priority
15:04on defence and security
15:05has been on security
15:06and fighting terrorism.
15:07So could you explain
15:09the difference?
15:10From 2010 onwards,
15:11there was a very good attempt
15:13to stop treating
15:13military defence
15:14and security defence
15:16as in the spies
15:17and the police
15:17as two totally different things.
15:19And actually,
15:19we had to integrate
15:20the whole thing.
15:21So that's the beginning.
15:22It's under David Cameron.
15:23You get the beginning
15:24of the National Security Secretariat
15:25and you get the beginning
15:26of much more integrated planning.
15:29It's very easy
15:30when we're just talking
15:30about the military
15:31to forget that
15:32the biggest threat
15:33to us as citizens
15:35of the country
15:35in the last 20 years
15:36have been kept
15:37from terrorist attacks
15:39and with some
15:40awful, awful exceptions,
15:42most of the attacks
15:43that have been planned
15:44have been frustrated
15:45and they've been frustrated
15:46because repeated
15:47and successive governments
15:48have made decisions
15:49to invest very heavily
15:51in our securities apparatus.
15:53Apparatus is the sort of word.
15:54It's absolutely amazing to me.
15:56Most of my life,
15:57I go around just talking
15:57like a normal person
15:58and then I sit in this room
15:59and talk about my old job
16:00and then say these security apparatus.
16:02It's still there.
16:03It's still there.
16:04It comes out.
16:05But, you know,
16:06we've made conscious decisions
16:08as a country
16:08to invest very hard
16:09in the capability
16:10to be able to find,
16:12understand and frustrate
16:13these plots.
16:14When the government
16:14passed Martin's Law,
16:15which is the new Act of Parliament
16:17which is about protecting
16:18people in public spaces,
16:19so this all came out
16:21of that awful
16:21Manchester Arena bombing
16:23in 2017
16:23and one of the things
16:25that was said
16:25after,
16:26in the context of the Act
16:27was that
16:28since that bombing
16:29in 2017,
16:29there have been
16:3039 late-stage
16:32terrorist attacks
16:33that have been
16:33foiled
16:34by the security services.
16:36So this is not
16:36a kind of abstract thing.
16:38This is a real
16:39and present danger
16:39that we are being
16:40consistently protected against.
16:42And that,
16:43to the credit
16:43of everyone involved,
16:44we have mostly been
16:45very, very well protected from.
16:47So,
16:47while we have been
16:48busy over on one side
16:49massively investing
16:50in
16:51kind of
16:52counter-terrorism
16:53operations,
16:53it is entirely fair to say
16:55and the numbers
16:55sell this story themselves,
16:56we have been
16:57what now looks like
16:59really seriously
16:59under-investing
17:00in conventional defence
17:01because nobody thought
17:03that we'd be
17:03at a,
17:04or in the situation
17:06where we may well
17:06have to fight
17:07a war
17:09without the protection
17:10of America.
17:10That has not been
17:11in anyone's
17:12planning
17:13in recent years.
17:15Yeah,
17:15I also think
17:16your point about the US
17:17is really well made
17:18because
17:19as much as anything,
17:20America obviously is saying
17:21we want to be involved
17:22in fewer conflicts,
17:23we don't want to be
17:24the sort of nanny
17:25of the world,
17:26but actually a way
17:27to show that we're
17:28allies with them
17:29is to prove that
17:29we would spend the money
17:30they want us to
17:31and this gets us into
17:33I suppose
17:33the real logjam
17:34and why George Robertson
17:36is frustrated
17:36and why he's
17:37singled out the Treasury
17:39for vandalism here
17:40because
17:41a lot of this stuff
17:43comes down to
17:43a classic
17:44within-government war
17:46between the Treasury
17:47and the MOD
17:48and we saw that
17:50play out a few times.
17:51I mean,
17:52you talked about
17:53integrated review
17:54there
17:54so I remember
17:56that happening
17:56Rishi Sunak
17:58was Chancellor
17:58Ben Wallace
18:00was Defence Secretary
18:01it's 2020
18:02so we're mid-Covid
18:04and
18:05it was
18:06it ended up
18:07being quite sort of
18:08bitter and petulant
18:10both sides
18:11very, very dug in
18:12because officials
18:13in both of those buildings
18:14have a very clear idea
18:15of what they think
18:16of the other side
18:17the MOD
18:19sees the Treasury
18:20as
18:22people who just
18:23don't understand
18:23the real world
18:24they don't understand
18:25Defence
18:26they're boffins
18:27who are bean counters
18:28yeah
18:28they're either
18:29peaceniks
18:29or bean counters
18:30or both
18:30right
18:31but the Treasury
18:32openly call the MOD
18:34the Department for Waste
18:35and
18:35they also have a point too
18:37because
18:38you know
18:38some defence projects
18:40have been
18:42exceedingly wasteful
18:43you know
18:43the Ajax tanks
18:44is a classic example
18:45which were
18:46these tanks
18:47that we bought
18:48in
18:48the late 2010s
18:50and we kept using
18:52in the early 2020s
18:53and
18:54not only did they
18:55not work that well
18:55they actually made
18:56our soldiers incredibly unwell
18:57because
18:58and we're really getting
19:00way past my knowledge
19:01of engineering here
19:02but
19:03I think they just shook
19:04too much
19:04and it
19:05it made them
19:06really poorly
19:07poor soldiers
19:08I know
19:08but
19:08that got
19:09that got really bitter
19:11I mean
19:11Ben Wallace used to
19:12used to come in
19:13for these meetings
19:14and he'd call
19:15Rishi Sinhaq
19:16Rishi
19:16like he
19:17it was almost like
19:17he deliberately wanted to
19:19mispronounce his name
19:20Rishi Sinhaq
19:21felt very strongly
19:22that you know
19:23he'd just done furlough
19:24by the way
19:25so he was
19:25and he
19:26we were talking
19:26he was not cash rich
19:27he was not cash rich
19:29he was trying to get
19:30the economy going
19:30with eat out
19:31to help out
19:31over the summer
19:32and ultimately
19:33it was Boris Johnson's decision
19:35he was the prime minister
19:36and you have to arbitrate
19:38which is
19:38obviously something
19:39Keir Starmer
19:40does not like to do
19:42but that's also where
19:42I mean
19:42in you know
19:43what the MAD
19:45and what the
19:45particularly the military chiefs
19:47are really really good at
19:48is
19:49buttering up
19:50senior people
19:51to
19:53you know
19:53they get the flash bangs out
19:55and they
19:55make the case
19:57right
19:57for
19:57why it's really important
19:59to spend on defence
20:00so
20:00to be fair
20:01to the MAD
20:01they're usually quite good
20:03at persuading prime ministers
20:04to
20:05spend lots of money
20:06on the things
20:07in theory
20:07yes I actually
20:09experienced that myself
20:10so the autumn
20:11of 2020
20:12I'm not sure people
20:13will remember this
20:15but it's especially
20:16pertinent now
20:17now that we're so worried
20:18about access
20:20to oil and gas
20:20in this country
20:21an oil tanker
20:23off the coast
20:23of the Isle of Wight
20:24got hijacked
20:26by some Somali pirates
20:27and the SBS
20:28the special boat service
20:30which by the way
20:30at the time
20:31was commanded
20:32by Al Qans
20:33the defence minister
20:35the defence minister
20:36I saw him in action
20:37did you now
20:38oh get ready
20:39everyone
20:41and we'll have to
20:42do this post watershed
20:44and the SBS
20:45got out
20:46I mean it was
20:46an incredible operation
20:47they got out there
20:48and they took it back
20:49so mysteriously
20:50and magically
20:50the prime minister
20:51was invited
20:52to witness
20:54this act
20:54of military prowess
20:56well we heard
20:56about it
20:57and then off the back
20:58of it
20:58he was invited
20:59down to their base
21:01with a special advisor
21:02hello
21:03I really got my elbows
21:05out to get onto
21:05that trip
21:06and to go
21:07and meet them
21:08and congratulate them
21:09and it's also
21:10a great opportunity
21:11if you were
21:12the defence secretary
21:13to push
21:14why it's so important
21:15to keep investment
21:16going in our armed forces
21:17and it was
21:18a pretty spectacular
21:20day
21:20I jumped out of it
21:22your face is so
21:23so for people
21:23listening on the audio
21:24they will not be able
21:25to see what has happened
21:26to Cleo's face
21:27when she's remembering
21:28this story
21:30I'm glowing
21:30you've gone a bit pink
21:31yeah
21:32well you would go pink
21:34because I had to
21:35run out of the back
21:37of a Chinook helicopter
21:38which is like
21:39the double rotor
21:41in a
21:41what is called
21:42a dry suit
21:43so you know how
21:44James Bond
21:44he'll like
21:45you know
21:45he unzips this thing
21:47having been in the water
21:48and there's his
21:48sort of dinner jacket
21:49underneath
21:50were you wearing
21:50a dinner jacket
21:51I wasn't
21:51and actually
21:52it's not as chic
21:52as that
21:53you have to
21:53you have to
21:55squeeze in
21:55through the neck hole
21:56so it's like
21:57trying to get
21:58two space back
21:59into a juice
21:59it's not that
22:00it's not that attractive
22:01but I had to
22:02you have to sprint
22:03and then jump out
22:04of the back
22:05of an open Chinook
22:06and then you fall
22:07what felt like
22:08a hundred feet
22:09but I think was ten
22:11into the sea
22:12and then
22:13a little
22:14I don't know
22:15the proper name
22:15so I'm going to call it
22:16Skidoo
22:17came and
22:18picked me up
22:19let's assume
22:19it's not a Skidoo
22:20but maybe that's redacted
22:21there's a picture of me
22:21jumping out the back
22:22mid-scream
22:23which we will put into
22:25the show notes
22:26of people to experience
22:27but
22:27on the back of that experience
22:29you would have invested
22:30very heavily
22:30I was like we've got to put it all in
22:31you've got to put all the money in
22:32yeah yeah
22:32make them do it topless
22:33and I mean these guys were amazing
22:35they're very impressive
22:37people
22:38and you did think
22:39for an operation like that
22:40it was
22:41what else would we have done
22:42and you can't really drone
22:44in that situation
22:45like you do actually need
22:46a sort of
22:46boots on the ground
22:47the top brass were there
22:49all the different heads
22:49of the armed forces were there
22:51looking super cool
22:52there was
22:53you know
22:53there was a curry
22:54there was a
22:55there was a
22:55you know
22:56Boris Johnson got to meet
22:57all the crew that were involved
22:59and
23:00what was Rishi Sunak
23:01and the Treasury
23:02going to do
23:02like come over to our
23:03spreadsheet party
23:04you're going to love it
23:05get it
23:06bring your Casio calculator
23:08this is one of the things
23:09that's always puzzled me
23:10about the image
23:10because it is an absolute
23:11classic of
23:12butter up the Prime Minister
23:13butter up everybody
23:14everyone thinks brilliant
23:15the sums of money involved
23:16always sound absolutely huge
23:18and
23:18which they are
23:19which they are
23:20and they're always like
23:20ages off
23:21because you need to spend
23:23tens and tens and tens
23:25of billions of pounds
23:26on procuring this very
23:27complicated thing
23:27and obviously you can't
23:28actually buy it today
23:29it's about a contract
23:30that's going to come in
23:31in next year
23:32so in terms of government
23:33spending
23:33the really really really
23:34hard decisions
23:35are the in-year decisions
23:38because that's about
23:39what you're spending now
23:40they're sort of
23:40we're going to promise
23:41to deliver this large
23:42amount of money
23:42and it's going to be
23:432.3% or 4.0% of this
23:45of whatever
23:46they're actually
23:47in terms of Treasury
23:48decisions
23:48the easier ones to make
23:50one of the problems
23:51here though
23:51is just as you said
23:52which is the MOD's
23:53catastrophic history
23:54of procuring
23:55exactly the wrong thing
23:57to be fair to John Healy
23:58at the same time
23:59is doing this really
24:00significant big
24:01strategic defence review
24:02he's also done
24:04based on a lot of
24:04lessons and a lot of
24:05sensible people
24:06saying things to him
24:06he's done quite a
24:07significant restructuring
24:08of how the MOD itself
24:10should run
24:11so he's got all of
24:12that organisational stuff
24:13going on at the same time
24:14there's a hugely
24:15different approach
24:16going to be taken
24:17to procurement
24:17so all of this
24:19has kind of taken time
24:20and made it all
24:21really slow
24:22and then you have
24:23from the Treasury
24:24perspective
24:24we don't need to
24:25it's the bleeding
24:27obvious that they are
24:27not in a position
24:29of thinking about
24:29how do we spend
24:30all this wealth
24:31and from the Treasury
24:32perspective
24:32going slower
24:33and taking more
24:34time
24:34is so important
24:36because the longer
24:38you can push to the
24:39right
24:39where the money's
24:40going to fall
24:41the better it is
24:41for you
24:42so the Treasury
24:43are hard incentivised
24:44to take all their
24:46sweet time
24:46before they get
24:47to a settlement
24:48about exactly
24:49how the money
24:50should fall
24:50so that's partly
24:51why we are
24:52where we are
24:52in terms of
24:53it's taking
24:53them ages to plan
24:54the other thing
24:55which I think
24:55increasingly looks
24:56really really weird
24:57from the outside
24:58is this linear
24:59analogue version
25:00of life
25:01that seems to
25:02only apply to
25:02Whitehall
25:03where you can't
25:04possibly do anything
25:05until you publish
25:06the document
25:07saying all of the
25:08things you're going
25:09to do
25:09it's like
25:09nothing else in
25:10life works like
25:11that
25:11no business
25:12is like
25:12well I'm
25:12terribly sorry
25:13I can't invest
25:13in anything
25:14at all
25:14because I've
25:15got to wait
25:15for this
25:16four year process
25:17before I can
25:18then decide
25:18because it's
25:19like life
25:19moves much
25:20faster than that
25:20and in this
25:21space
25:21it moves so
25:22much faster
25:23than this
25:23so one of the
25:24things I think
25:25we are seeing
25:25in broad daylight
25:26here is
25:27the sort of
25:28ancient way
25:29that Whitehall
25:30works
25:31and how that
25:32actually gets
25:32in the way
25:33when you do
25:33need to act
25:34urgently
25:34when you do
25:35need to start
25:35doing the next
25:36right thing
25:36back to Frozen 2
25:39it's really
25:39really difficult
25:40and one of the
25:41things that we
25:42will come on to
25:43kind of what
25:43would we be
25:44recommending
25:45but carrying
25:46on plodding
25:46along in the
25:47council of
25:48perfection
25:48and producing
25:49documents which
25:50where it's got
25:51the answer to
25:51every single
25:52question you
25:52could possibly
25:53ask for
25:53and everything
25:54has been thought
25:55through and
25:55everything has
25:56been budgeted
25:56for that's
25:57not really the
25:58approach that
25:58you can afford
25:59to in any
25:59sense of the
26:00word take
26:01at the moment
26:01and it just
26:02it just shines
26:03a light on that
26:03very analogue
26:04and linear
26:04and kind of
26:05old-fashioned
26:05way of thinking
26:06and operating
26:06yes I agree
26:07and actually if
26:08you're in the
26:08treasury or in
26:10the cabinet
26:10office that way
26:11of going about
26:13things does not
26:14incentivize the
26:15MOD to sort
26:16of come clean
26:17on some of
26:18this stuff so
26:19I remember
26:19really well
26:20I believe it
26:21was late
26:222019
26:23early 2020
26:24so this is
26:25when we're
26:25starting to
26:26think about
26:26the integrated
26:27review
26:27sitting in on
26:29a meeting
26:29with Dominic
26:30Cummings who
26:31was obviously
26:32a senior
26:33advisor to
26:33Boris Johnson
26:34at the time
26:34who really
26:35set in his
26:35sights I would
26:36say defence
26:38funding and
26:39thinking about
26:40certainly drone
26:41warfare and that
26:42kind of thing
26:42the futuristic
26:43stuff that he
26:44is quite
26:45interested and
26:46worried about
26:47but he just
26:49kept asking
26:50questions kept
26:50digging and
26:51it did reveal
26:53what is an
26:54enormous funding
26:55black hole in
26:57defence and I
26:59can see how if
27:00you're in the
27:01treasury you just
27:02think there's so
27:02much kind of
27:03robbing Peter to
27:03pay Paul there
27:04are questions we
27:05can't ask we
27:05never quite get
27:06straight answers to
27:08things that we
27:08want where is
27:10this money going
27:10and similarly if
27:13you are in this
27:14if you are the
27:15secretary of
27:16state for defence
27:17you're trying to
27:18get to the
27:18bottom of that
27:19too for starters
27:20you have to
27:20justify yourself
27:21the whole time
27:22and exactly as
27:23you say the
27:24money you need
27:24is right now
27:25because we're
27:27in an impending
27:27crisis now
27:29not 2035 which
27:31I think is like
27:31the goal for
27:322.5%
27:33I think the
27:34other thing that
27:34I would say
27:35that's always
27:36confused me about
27:37the way that the
27:37MAD approach
27:38these things I
27:39mean we are
27:40very fortunate in
27:41that we have some
27:42absolutely extraordinary
27:43capabilities within
27:44our armed services
27:45so I don't know
27:46if you remember
27:47definitely in
27:47Covid but other
27:48times in my civil
27:49services life as
27:50well we've been
27:51able to use the
27:52military planners
27:53yeah
27:53so we're like
27:55yes
27:55they're good
27:56yeah
27:57they're good
27:57stuff those
27:58guys
27:58absolutely amazing
27:59so partly
28:00this is always
28:01true definitely
28:03is a kind of
28:03normal white
28:04horse civil servant
28:05if you were able
28:05to get somebody
28:06from either the
28:07security services
28:08or from the
28:09military to come
28:10in and help you
28:11on a bit of
28:11domestic work
28:12it was like
28:12manna from
28:13heaven partly
28:14because
28:14the olympics
28:15covid
28:16yeah
28:16all sorts of
28:17other things
28:18actually she
28:18says
28:19because they
28:20have a completely
28:21different mindset
28:22and they have a
28:22different set of
28:23they're not really
28:23worried about
28:24what the person
28:26who's the
28:26director general
28:27in DWP
28:28thinks about
28:28something
28:28they've got a
28:29different value
28:30system
28:30they've got a
28:31different set
28:31of loyalties
28:32they're much
28:33more free and
28:33open
28:34why that the
28:35MAD haven't
28:36ever bothered to
28:37use their own
28:38military planners
28:38on the execution
28:40of a spending
28:40round bid
28:41i have no
28:42idea
28:42so they've
28:43got all
28:43such a good
28:44point
28:44they've got
28:44all these
28:45capabilities
28:45they've got
28:46the kind of
28:46unbelievable
28:47ability to
28:48schmooze
28:48people
28:49and they're
28:50okay at
28:51manipulating
28:51them
28:51but by the
28:52way nothing
28:53like as good
28:53as the
28:53security services
28:54are which is
28:55partly why they've
28:56had loads more
28:56money because
28:57surprise surprise
28:57those people
28:58are extremely
28:59good at
29:00working out
29:00how to get
29:01what they want
29:01thankfully
29:02but the
29:03MAD don't
29:03apply their own
29:04skills to their
29:05own problems
29:05and they should
29:06have been
29:07alongside having
29:08this review
29:09like why
29:10aren't they
29:10or why
29:11weren't they
29:12also doing
29:13the doing
29:13and doing
29:14the planning
29:14and getting
29:15lined up to
29:15do this
29:16spending
29:16it's kind
29:16of it's so
29:18it's so frustrating
29:18that they don't
29:19do the they don't
29:20even do the best
29:20of the thing
29:21that they've got
29:21available in their
29:22own building
29:22frankly
29:23coming up next
29:24we're going to
29:24talk about
29:25what can
29:25Keir Starmer
29:26do about this
29:29so one of the
29:30things that
29:31the fact that
29:31Lord Robinson
29:32made those
29:32comments this
29:33week has
29:33revealed that
29:34there is a
29:34long way to
29:35go in terms
29:36of winning
29:36over hearts
29:36and minds
29:37within the
29:38Labour Party
29:39about what
29:40the plan is
29:41on defence
29:41spending
29:42yeah it's
29:42such a bad
29:43stage when
29:44you've got
29:44party grandees
29:45coming out
29:46and saying
29:46like really
29:47tearing their
29:48hair out
29:48the thing
29:49to keep in
29:50mind for
29:50people with
29:50George Robertson
29:52is he's written
29:53this report
29:53he's really
29:54kept his
29:55counsel
29:55he's gone
29:56out of his
29:56way to
29:57not stick
29:58his head
29:58above the
29:59parapet
29:59and then he's
30:00obviously
30:00just finally
30:01thought
30:01I've got to
30:02try and
30:02compel
30:03action here
30:04and like
30:04this is
30:05tough stuff
30:06for a
30:07really loyal
30:08Labour man
30:08to be saying
30:09particularly
30:11because like
30:12I said when
30:13we talked
30:13about
30:13Kemi
30:13Badenauk's
30:14clip in
30:14PMQs this
30:16week
30:16the government
30:17have been able
30:18to some
30:19extent to hide
30:20behind well
30:20this comes off
30:21the back of
30:2114 years of
30:22the Conservatives
30:23in charge
30:23and you know
30:25there were
30:25plenty of
30:25Conservative
30:26ministers I
30:26think who'd
30:27probably say
30:27they could have
30:28done a much
30:28better job
30:30but Keir Starmer
30:31has been in the
30:31role for nearly
30:32two years now
30:32and when you
30:34are at the
30:34stage where
30:35you've got
30:36your own
30:36people now
30:37starting to
30:37say you
30:39are being
30:39negligent
30:40that's a
30:41big problem
30:41one of the
30:42issues is
30:43that the
30:43MPs themselves
30:44need to be
30:45brought into
30:45this really
30:46heavily so
30:46who is doing
30:47the charm
30:48offensive and
30:49not just the
30:49charm but the
30:50kind of show
30:50and tell
30:50explaining
30:51most of us
30:52have had the
30:53luxury of our
30:53lives of not
30:54having to
30:54really think
30:55about national
30:56security and
30:57defence and
30:58all of this
30:58stuff which is
30:59genuinely scary
31:00that definitely
31:01includes most
31:02Labour MPs
31:03Labour ministers
31:03civil servants
31:04outside of
31:04defence and
31:05security spaces
31:06they're just
31:06trotting along
31:07la la la la la
31:09thinking about
31:09their own
31:10things not
31:11realising this
31:12is actually we
31:12are now in
31:13one of those
31:13phases of our
31:14collective lives
31:15nationally locally
31:16globally you
31:17name it where
31:19security is not
31:19like a little
31:20thing to think
31:21about it has to
31:21be foundational
31:22and fundamental
31:23yeah exactly
31:24I also think
31:26what you said
31:27there about who
31:28is talking to
31:29the Labour
31:30MPs and
31:31defence space
31:32and who
31:33is saying
31:34I can do
31:34this that
31:35is Angela
31:36Rayner it
31:37turns out
31:37who obviously
31:38was the
31:39deputy prime
31:40minister and
31:41she's currently
31:42on the back
31:42benches but
31:43it's sort of
31:44widely talked
31:44about that
31:45she's potentially
31:46plotting a
31:47return and
31:47an ally of
31:48hers has
31:49said I'm
31:50the one that's
31:50going to get
31:51to 3.5%
31:52get the jobs
31:53and do
31:54defence
31:54re-industrialisation
31:55I don't think
31:56it is coincidence
31:57that the local
31:58elections are
31:59coming up
31:59where at the
32:00moment the
32:00Labour Party
32:01are having
32:02their lunch
32:02eaten by
32:03both the
32:04Greens who
32:05obviously are
32:05pretty well
32:06against defence
32:07spending in
32:08general I would
32:09say and
32:10reform who
32:12are saying
32:12we should be
32:13in essence
32:14getting more
32:15involved in
32:16double down
32:16and spending
32:17more of our
32:17GDP and
32:19I think this
32:21ends up being
32:21a metaphor for
32:23almost all
32:24Keir Starmer's
32:24decisions sitting
32:25on his desk
32:26just now which
32:26is you have to
32:27get off the
32:28fence and you
32:28have to pick
32:28a side
32:29you have to
32:30decide what
32:30your political
32:30strategy is
32:31are you trying
32:32to win back
32:32people you're
32:33losing to
32:34the Greens
32:34you're trying
32:34to win back
32:35people you're
32:36losing to
32:37reform
32:37you have to
32:38have a strategy
32:38on almost
32:39everything here
32:40you know what
32:41are you doing
32:41about housing
32:42what are you
32:42doing about
32:43energy
32:44what are you
32:45doing about
32:45defence
32:45and all
32:47those
32:47all those
32:48strategies should
32:49actually align
32:50and I don't
32:52get the sense
32:52at the moment
32:53that there
32:54is a really
32:54kind of core
32:55political plan
32:56at the centre
32:57of his
32:58thinking
32:59and that
33:00is a big
33:00problem
33:00and that
33:01is essentially
33:01why the
33:03strategic defence
33:03review and
33:04the defence
33:05investment plan
33:06are just
33:06kicking around
33:08between him
33:09and the treasury
33:10and the MOD
33:11while they
33:11fight out
33:12what they
33:13should ultimately
33:13do about this
33:14and where the
33:15pressure will
33:15really mean
33:16he lands
33:17yeah and
33:17there's a
33:18missing link
33:18here
33:18because everybody
33:19else is being
33:19let off the
33:20hook
33:20that's part
33:21of the
33:21problem
33:21if we see
33:21all of the
33:22decisions
33:22that keep
33:22going wrong
33:23for Keir
33:23Starmer's
33:24government
33:24they are
33:25because over
33:26here in
33:27one set of
33:28rooms with
33:28one set of
33:29people
33:29people have
33:29been doing
33:30some very
33:30hard work
33:31and come up
33:31with some
33:31entirely
33:32rational and
33:32sound thing
33:33in its own
33:34terms
33:34they've done
33:35that by
33:35themselves
33:36and the
33:37kind of
33:38mindset is
33:39that this
33:40is good
33:40and sensible
33:40and therefore
33:41everybody should
33:41think it is
33:42the right
33:42thing to do
33:43and everyone
33:44should just
33:44get on
33:48persuading
33:48cajoling
33:49getting everybody
33:50into the
33:50same team
33:51making people
33:52sort of dip
33:53their hands
33:53in the blood
33:53which is a
33:54horrible phrase
33:54but it's
33:55one that is
33:56quite important
33:56as a mechanism
33:57for making
33:58Whitehall work
33:59is that actually
34:00you have to get
34:01all the people
34:01who are going
34:02to be offside
34:03enlisted in
34:04the project
34:04right from
34:05the beginning
34:05and you have
34:06to make them
34:07responsible
34:07and accountable
34:08for is this
34:09going to work
34:10or not
34:10so this is
34:11not a Ministry
34:12of Defence
34:12and Treasury
34:13problem
34:14the defence
34:15of our country
34:16and our
34:17industrial
34:17strategy
34:18and how
34:19we are going
34:19to be secure
34:20and prosperous
34:20as a nation
34:21is a whole
34:22team sport
34:23it's alright
34:23talking about
34:24percentages of GDP
34:25if our GDP
34:26is going to go
34:27down in the
34:28rate at which
34:28the IMF has
34:29said it will
34:29do because
34:30of the wider
34:31economic crisis
34:32we've got an
34:33even bigger
34:33problem
34:33like we need
34:34to be prosperous
34:35we need to be
34:36secure
34:36we need to be
34:37a country
34:38which has
34:39opportunities
34:39for people
34:40that's the
34:41kind of weirdness
34:42of the debate
34:42this week
34:43which has been
34:43a bit again
34:44in George
34:45Robertson's terms
34:46of spending
34:46too much
34:47money on
34:47welfare
34:48not warfare
34:48which is the
34:49absolute classic
34:50guns and butter
34:51or however you
34:52want to phrase it
34:53actually that's
34:54not the choice
34:55the fundamental
34:56choice is
34:57we need to be
34:57as prosperous
34:58as possible
34:58as a nation
34:59jobs need to be
35:00able to be
35:01jobs need to pay
35:02and we need to be
35:03able to fund
35:04our defence
35:04and security
35:05properly
35:05you're right
35:06it's not
35:06how we spend
35:07money
35:07it's actually
35:08in some ways
35:08how we decide
35:09to make money
35:09what's our
35:09big industrial
35:10plan
35:10the bit
35:11I do
35:12have some
35:12sympathy
35:13on
35:13is
35:14defence
35:15is generally
35:16not
35:17characterised
35:17as a vote
35:18winner
35:19it's something
35:20people don't
35:20think about
35:21I mean
35:21Churchill
35:22literally
35:22beat Hitler
35:23and because
35:24he didn't
35:25run a campaign
35:26based on a
35:27domestic agenda
35:28people basically
35:29said thanks
35:29but we want
35:31NHS
35:31and we want
35:32education
35:32like very
35:33reasonably
35:33I mean
35:35if he's not
35:36going to do
35:36it
35:36who is
35:37and in fact
35:38in this context
35:39defence
35:39for the Labour
35:40Party
35:41vis-a-vis
35:41the Greens
35:42and reform
35:42it's turning
35:43out to be
35:43a bit of
35:44a vote
35:45splitter
35:45one of the
35:46things I have
35:47noticed
35:47and I wonder
35:47if this
35:48caught your
35:48attention
35:48Helen
35:49is
35:51in the way
35:52that the
35:52government
35:52can't really
35:53show all
35:55the terrorism
35:55plots
35:55that it
35:56has foiled
35:57there are
35:57major security
35:58implications
35:58I did
35:59notice
36:00that they
36:00have
36:02declassified
36:02a story
36:03in the
36:04last week
36:05about
36:06about cables
36:06about cables
36:07so some
36:08Russian
36:08submarines
36:08were sort
36:09of
36:09loitering
36:10on the
36:11edge
36:11of UK
36:11waters
36:12very near
36:13these
36:13subsea
36:14fibre optic
36:15cables
36:15which is
36:16I mean
36:17I don't
36:18really think
36:18I can
36:19emphasise
36:19enough
36:19how important
36:20these are
36:20that it's
36:2199%
36:22of the
36:22world's
36:22information
36:23essentially
36:23encrypted
36:24calls
36:25banking
36:26software
36:26redacted
36:27yeah
36:28exactly
36:29everything's
36:30whizzing
36:30through here
36:31and so
36:32that required
36:33our navy
36:34going out
36:34and sort
36:35of
36:36shooing
36:36the subs
36:37away
36:37is that a
36:38technical term
36:39yeah
36:40yes you can
36:41look at
36:41gov.uk
36:42excellent
36:43shooing
36:43by us
36:43and the
36:44Norwegians
36:44but
36:44essentially
36:45I mean
36:45that is
36:47military
36:47action
36:48it had
36:48to be
36:49ships
36:49that
36:49undertook
36:50that
36:50kind of
36:51mission
36:52for very
36:53real world
36:55implications
36:56for us
36:56and I thought
36:57it was so
36:57interesting
36:58that there
36:58was a bit
36:59of ankle
37:00showing
37:01from the
37:02government
37:02to show
37:02okay
37:03here is
37:04something that
37:05is happening
37:05all the time
37:06and we've
37:06decided to
37:07tell you
37:07about it
37:07they didn't
37:08make a
37:08massive song
37:08and dance
37:09by the way
37:09it's just
37:10out there
37:11as a sort
37:11of
37:11these are
37:12the things
37:12we're just
37:13cooking
37:13let us
37:14crack on
37:15you just
37:15carry on
37:16with your
37:16daily lives
37:17because we're
37:18making sure
37:18everything runs
37:19smoothly
37:19this is where
37:20you know
37:20there is a
37:21much more
37:21interesting
37:22exciting
37:23version of
37:24trying to
37:24tell this
37:24story to
37:25all of us
37:25which is
37:26there is a
37:27big opportunity
37:27the world is
37:28changing really
37:28fast
37:29this is about
37:29defence tech
37:30it's about
37:31it's always
37:32been the case
37:32that actually
37:33quite a lot
37:34of technical
37:35innovation
37:35comes out
37:36of having
37:37to think
37:37quite hard
37:38about security
37:38spending
37:39I mean
37:39honestly
37:39we've got
37:40some incredible
37:41people
37:41and some
37:42amazing
37:43capabilities
37:43in our
37:44country
37:44I mean
37:45some of
37:45them you
37:45obviously
37:45can't
37:46shout
37:46about
37:46we do
37:47have
37:47those
37:48things
37:48and
37:49it's
37:50just a bit
37:50depressing
37:50that what
37:51we tend
37:51to do
37:52is play
37:52out all
37:53of this
37:53stuff
37:53in public
37:54as well
37:55it's like
37:55I'm pretty
37:55sure in
37:56Russia
37:56they're not
37:57you know
37:57publishing
37:58a strategic
37:58defence
37:59review
37:59and then
37:59a year
38:00later
38:00maybe
38:00publishing
38:00a plan
38:01and then
38:01having
38:02a big
38:02argument
38:02about it
38:03there is
38:03a bit
38:03of
38:03the way
38:04in which
38:05we conduct
38:05all of
38:05this stuff
38:06in this
38:06country
38:06is not
38:06exactly
38:07we need
38:07to get
38:08with it
38:09a bit
38:09and start
38:09being a bit
38:10more
38:11piratical
38:11I would
38:11say a bit
38:12more swashbuckling
38:12and a bit
38:13more confident
38:13and a bit
38:14more just
38:15getting on
38:15and doing
38:15things
38:16which I
38:16go back
38:17to
38:17we do
38:18not need
38:18more
38:18I'm sure
38:19the investment
38:20plan
38:20when it's
38:21published
38:27is just
38:27start working
38:28out how
38:28you're going
38:29to procure
38:29some drones
38:29do that
38:30now
38:30and actually
38:31there's no
38:31reason why
38:32they can't
38:33just do
38:33that now
38:33anyway
38:34there is
38:35so much
38:36of a
38:36there's just
38:37an urgency
38:37that does
38:38not apply
38:38to decision
38:39making
38:39in government
38:40and we've
38:41got to
38:41find some
38:41way
38:42of doing
38:42it
38:42differently
38:43I completely
38:44agree
38:44and to
38:45end
38:45if we're
38:46just going
38:46back to
38:47very basic
38:49first principles
38:50Keir Starmer
38:51and his
38:51government
38:52number one
38:53job
38:53is
38:54the defence
38:55of the
38:55realm
38:55and I
38:56just don't
38:57see how
38:58more isn't
38:58being seen
38:59through that
39:00lens
39:00and whoever
39:01becomes
39:01prime minister
39:02next
39:03if we end
39:03up with
39:04Nigel Farage
39:05or Zach
39:05Polanski
39:06or Kemi
39:07Baden
39:07or Keir Starmer
39:08stays
39:08that will be
39:10the first
39:10thing they're
39:11presented with
39:12and I just
39:14can't believe
39:14in the same
39:15situation
39:16people aren't
39:18thinking
39:19in a more
39:20very obvious
39:21less ideological
39:23straightforward
39:24headspace
39:25on what
39:26needs to be
39:26done here
39:27to keep
39:27us safe
39:28and it's
39:28not going
39:28to be
39:29perfect
39:29right
39:29it's
39:30not going
39:30to be
39:30perfect
39:30not going
39:31to get
39:31every
39:31decision
39:31right
39:32but just
39:33do it
39:34today
39:34do something
39:35today
39:35do something
39:35today
39:36which is
39:36going to
39:36make us
39:37safer
39:37and more
39:37secure
39:38and then
39:38have another
39:39go tomorrow
39:39thanks for
39:40listening to
39:40today's episode
39:41remember to
39:41follow the
39:42show on
39:42your podcast
39:43player of
39:43choice
39:44and leave
39:44us a
39:45five-star
39:45review
39:45if you
39:46enjoyed
39:46it
39:46and you
39:47can keep
39:47up with
39:47the best
39:48bits
39:48of the
39:48podcast
39:49at
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39:51on instagram
39:51this podcast
39:52is part of
39:53the independent
39:53podcast network
39:54and produced
39:55in association
39:55with next
39:56chapter studios
39:57the executive
39:58producers are
39:58carrie rose
39:59and olivia foster
40:00and the producer
40:02is sam durham
40:03and a special
40:04mention to
40:04maya anushka
40:05and our video
40:05editor
40:06vali razza
40:07thanks for
40:08listening
40:08we'll see you
40:08next week
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